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Post by themikefest on May 5, 2018 18:19:17 GMT
So if Meredith killed Anders instead of invoking the right to annul, would that be ok for folks? For me, yes. I also believe had Cullen being there when she invoked the right, he may have stepped in voicing his opinion that it wasn't necessary since the culprit was standing before them.
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Post by Catilina on May 5, 2018 19:08:37 GMT
So if Meredith killed Anders instead of invoking the right to annul, would that be ok for folks? For me, yes. I also believe had Cullen being there when she invoked the right, he may have stepped in voicing his opinion that it wasn't necessary since the culprit was standing before them. But she did not. And even if she would do, she already sent the request for the Annulment – so this was her goal. And tranquilized and tortured/let her people to torture many mages because of her whim, and because this is the best tool to keep in fear the captives. And prevented the Viscount election. So she was not okay, and never would be. The system shattered her soul. But probably yes, probably more people would side the Templars without the planned Annulment, I suppose (but still not me). Many people think, that to lock out the problems will solve the problems – because they don't see the problems...
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Post by pathogen7 on May 5, 2018 23:43:59 GMT
The only way the Right of Annulment would work that ensures no abuse is the Knight Commander, Seekers, First Enchanter, the Divine and the Grand Cleric is in agreement and the situation so dire that every single mage in the circle is compromised fully. Otherwise anyone of them as we have seen can or will use it for their own purpose. Keep in mind that's it's not always so easy to determine if a mage is compromised (I assume you mean possessed). As riverdaleswhiteflash pointed out, it's not easy and foolproof for templars to determine whether or not a mage is possessed or not. What if, in some hypothetical Circle, the Templars know for sure that 50% of mages are possessed, but for the other 50% the templars aren't able to say definitively one way or another that they are possessed? Do you not perform the RoA and risk that some of those 50% are actually possessed and can cause serious damage/death? Or do you play it safe and perform the RoA?
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Post by Catilina on May 6, 2018 0:17:18 GMT
The only way the Right of Annulment would work that ensures no abuse is the Knight Commander, Seekers, First Enchanter, the Divine and the Grand Cleric is in agreement and the situation so dire that every single mage in the circle is compromised fully. Otherwise anyone of them as we have seen can or will use it for their own purpose. Keep in mind that's it's not always so easy to determine if a mage is compromised (I assume you mean possessed). As riverdaleswhiteflash pointed out, it's not easy and foolproof for templars to determine whether or not a mage is possessed or not. What if, in some hypothetical Circle, the Templars know for sure that 50% of mages are possessed, but for the other 50% the templars aren't able to say definitively one way or another that they are possessed? Do you not perform the RoA and risk that some of those 50% are actually possessed and can cause serious damage/death? Or do you play it safe and perform the RoA? Yes. Killing everyone is safe. Safety's the best thing ever. The mages are dangerous. Let's lock them up... no... rather kill them all. But some people are dangerous too, and we can't know, who is or who will be. Let's lock them up... All... but who will guard them? The guards dangerous too. Let's kill them all! We must kill them all... for the safety. No one is safe... from the paranoia.
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Post by Catilina on May 6, 2018 0:32:50 GMT
Keep in mind that's it's not always so easy to determine if a mage is compromised (I assume you mean possessed). As riverdaleswhiteflash pointed out, it's not easy and foolproof for templars to determine whether or not a mage is possessed or not. What if, in some hypothetical Circle, the Templars know for sure that 50% of mages are possessed, but for the other 50% the templars aren't able to say definitively one way or another that they are possessed? Do you not perform the RoA and risk that some of those 50% are actually possessed and can cause serious damage/death? Or do you play it safe and perform the RoA? Yes I'm sorry I meant possessed and on the verge of accepting a demon or even going towards forbidden magic. If the Templars know for sure who the 50% shouldn't they isolate them as they find out. Why kill innocents. I think the Circle is going about this the wrong way. They keep such a close eye on the mages but are they really looking for possession from demons or has it gotten to the point where they are looking for personal day to day stuff as if the mages are prisoners. There has to be a way after all this time, think the Chantry is not inclined to look for the answer and would rather take the easy route and kill them all, it seems. It seems a difficult to question to answer even after all this time. Yet Anders could tell quite easily if Kieran was possessed. Is it that simple? Merrill too... the blood maic also working well... The Chantry uses blood magic – just not for that.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 6, 2018 1:32:39 GMT
Keep in mind that's it's not always so easy to determine if a mage is compromised (I assume you mean possessed). As riverdaleswhiteflash pointed out, it's not easy and foolproof for templars to determine whether or not a mage is possessed or not. What if, in some hypothetical Circle, the Templars know for sure that 50% of mages are possessed, but for the other 50% the templars aren't able to say definitively one way or another that they are possessed? Do you not perform the RoA and risk that some of those 50% are actually possessed and can cause serious damage/death? Or do you play it safe and perform the RoA? Yes I'm sorry I meant possessed and on the verge of accepting a demon or even going towards forbidden magic. If the Templars know for sure who the 50% shouldn't they isolate them as they find out. Why kill innocents. I think the Circle is going about this the wrong way. They keep such a close eye on the mages but are they really looking for possession from demons or has it gotten to the point where they are looking for personal day to day stuff as if the mages are prisoners. There has to be a way after all this time, think the Chantry is not inclined to look for the answer and would rather take the easy route and kill them all, it seems. It seems a difficult to question to answer even after all this time. Yet Anders could tell quite easily if Kieran was possessed. Is it that simple? Not simple at all really. Anders and Merrill use types of magic that are unavailable and/or forbidden by the Chantry. Anders is an abomination and through that he can detect whether others are similar to himself. Obviously that's not a way the Templars would use to detect abominations since that kind of defeats the purpose. Merrill uses magic not taught in the Chantry, using a mix of Dalish and blood magic. Blood magic is a no no for the Chantry and considering their history the Dalish aren't really going to give the Chantry Templars knowledge of how their magic works.
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Post by Catilina on May 6, 2018 1:45:33 GMT
Yes I'm sorry I meant possessed and on the verge of accepting a demon or even going towards forbidden magic. If the Templars know for sure who the 50% shouldn't they isolate them as they find out. Why kill innocents. I think the Circle is going about this the wrong way. They keep such a close eye on the mages but are they really looking for possession from demons or has it gotten to the point where they are looking for personal day to day stuff as if the mages are prisoners. There has to be a way after all this time, think the Chantry is not inclined to look for the answer and would rather take the easy route and kill them all, it seems. It seems a difficult to question to answer even after all this time. Yet Anders could tell quite easily if Kieran was possessed. Is it that simple? Not simple at all really. Anders and Merrill use types of magic that are unavailable and/or forbidden by the Chantry. Anders is an abomination and through that he can detect whether others are similar to himself. Obviously that's not a way the Templars would use to detect abominations since that kind of defeats the purpose. Merrill uses magic not taught in the Chantry, using a mix of Dalish and blood magic. Blood magic is a no no for the Chantry and considering their history the Dalish aren't really going to give the Chantry Templars knowledge of how their magic works. To catch mages they can use blood magic, to save their life not? (Anders' spirit healer and this was a spirit trick – but ofc, not excluded, that Justice helped)
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Vive la révolution mages!
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Vive la révolution mages!
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Post by Cantina on May 6, 2018 1:59:44 GMT
That is the overall problem. Magic is NOT the problem. The problem is: the one who wields the magic. Well, as pertains to most settings with magic or similar powers, maybe even 99.9% of them, I'd agree with you. But I think it's an oversimplification in this setting. This is one where misuse of magic isn't the only problem, and probably isn't even the worst problem. This is one where being a mage makes you more vulnerable to accidental possession by beings that at the low end of the spectrum can handle trained knights, and at the high end of the spectrum can handle cities. Are we sure magic itself is never the problem? If a solider runs out and stabs someone, would you blame the sword and then lock every person who knows how to use it just to keep people safe? I'd consider trying to solve the problem by keeping swords and such things off the streets. And in this case, that requires keeping the wielders off the streets, since you can't separate the magic from the mage as easily as you can separate a swordsman from his sword. But, and I can't emphasize this enough, that wouldn't be enough reason for me to consider locking up mages if it weren't for the problem I describe above. Look, I for one 100% agree with Anders. However, it was utter bullshit on Meredith's part to invoke the Right of Annulment when the person responsible was standing just a few inches from her. (Yep. Uncanny. Only time I agreed with Seabass). Well, yeah. As I pointed out on the last page, supporting the Right of Annulment in general doesn't predict whether or not you'll support it here, because this is not what it was meant for. When a murder was running loose through the streets of Kirkwall, the Viscount did not say, "Well, time to execute the whole city." Templars/Seekers claim they seek out mage problems and deal with them. So, they should do just that: deal with it. Not make a small problem into a mountain simply because they want to make their job easier. They protect innocents by killing innocents. Yeah. Makes complete sense. Right of Annulment should not exist in the first place. Its a piss poor excuse for The Chantry, Seekers and Templars to wipe out an entire Circle to be rid of there so-called "problem." If the phrase "make a small problem into a mountain" is at all applicable, then you're attacking a use of the Right of Annulment that I'm not seeking to defend. The Annulment is supposed to be the way the Templars and Seekers solve mountainous problems. That is the only use of it I'm seeking to defend, because that's the only remotely defensible use for it. And mountainous problems are entirely possible in this system of magic. If a murderer had gotten control of every single guard and every other other half-competent swordsman in the city by a combination of mind-control of living targets and necromancy on slain victims, and was using his new army as muscle in a plan to either mind-control or kill all of Kirkwall, the Viscount might have weighed the possibility of killing every single thing in the city to solve the problem. We can be entirely sure his neighbors would have. The reason the Right of Annulment exists is that there is a class of murderer in this setting that can create that class of problem, and it's generally kept in the Circles. The fact that it's abused to handle other situations doesn't erase that fact. Anyone can gain the attention of a demon. That mages do it easier than non-mages is a convenient technicality. But, even though a mage could attract a demon it is their magic that does so. And it depends on the person if he/she is smart enough to refuse whatever is offered. Magic does not decide this. It is the person. If possession was as big of an issue as The Chantry claims, then Thedas would be over-run with demons. And before you say, “Well that is because the Circle keeps them in control.” Look at Redcliff. Lots of mages. And so many demons. Oh wait. There were no demons. Your missing my point and countering said point with the obvious. You stated, “Well, will just lock up the swords.” So, your counter argument is pointing out what is already done with mages to keep people safe even though my analogy was towards how ludicrous condemning all mages for one mages bad behavior was/is. Thus, you further say there is no way to separate a mage and magic. There is. Its called: Tranquility. But that is what the Right of Annulment was made for. “To restore order in the Circle.” Again, misconstruing what I am saying. The Templar Order claims they can handle these types of situations. Yet. When a situation arises instead of dealing with it as they claim, they send word to wipe out the whole Circle. They made the problem larger then it needed to be. I don’t see any justification in slaughtering children along the way to not only make their jobs easier but to solve a problem. Fine. Send word for reinforcements. Regroup. Plan. Execute. Problems tend to have several different ways of solving it. Instead the Templars take the easier solution and convince themselves it is their right to do so. Mages are not seen as people to a lot of Templars and Seekers. Hell, even to some of those within The Chantry. To them, killing a mage who is innocent of any wrong doing, well, to those groups there is no such thing as an innocent mage. Right of Annulment? There is nothing right about it. Wiping out an entire tower just to eliminate a single threat is not justice its an abuse of power and genocide.
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Post by pathogen7 on May 6, 2018 14:13:34 GMT
To catch mages they can use blood magic, to save their life not? I don't know if teaching Templars blood magic is a good idea. I mean, we know how much the Kirkwall Templars already abuse their mages. Would anyone be surprised if someone like Ser Alrik or Ser Karras suddenly make a group of mages "disappear" to fuel their blood magic experiments? I get what you're saying about how blood magic could help Templars identify if a mage is possessed or not, but I think it would just exacerbate more problems already present within the Circle.
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Post by Catilina on May 6, 2018 14:22:25 GMT
To catch mages they can use blood magic, to save their life not? I don't know if teaching Templars blood magic is a good idea. I mean, we know how much the Kirkwall Templars already abuse their mages. Would anyone be surprised if someone like Ser Alrik or Ser Karras suddenly make a group of mages "disappear" to fuel their blood magic experiments? I get what you're saying about how blood magic could help Templars identify if a mage is possessed or not, but I think it would just exacerbate more problems already present within the Circle. Not a Templar. A mage.
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Post by pavellaning on Jun 5, 2018 0:39:39 GMT
My canon Hawke sided with Meredith and I regret nothing.
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Post by Catilina on Jun 5, 2018 0:49:28 GMT
My canon Hawke sided with Meredith and I regret nothing. Vivienne would approve. I think she would support the annulment too. A mad criminal Templar much better choice than help to free the mages.
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Post by pavellaning on Jun 5, 2018 1:45:18 GMT
My canon Hawke sided with Meredith and I regret nothing. Vivienne would approve. I think she would support the annulment too. A mad criminal Templar much better choice than help to free the mages. Also, my canon Warden annulled the Circle.
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Post by Catilina on Jun 5, 2018 1:52:51 GMT
Vivienne would approve. I think she would support the annulment too. A mad criminal Templar much better choice than help to free the mages. Also, my canon Warden annulled the Circle. Of course. Very logical to get some sword, instead of magic, what Duncan wanted... You know: mages are dangerous. To the darkspawn too, while the Templars only against the mages.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jun 5, 2018 7:33:23 GMT
Vivienne would approve. I think she would support the annulment too. I'm not so sure. Her party banter with Cassandra has her state that the templars needed better oversight, and the epilogue if she becomes Divine states that she shortens their leashes a good deal. (I wouldn't find that quite so worrisome if someone who wasn't Vivienne was holding that leash, because she's not exactly wrong that they could have used a bit more oversight and a bit less discretion.)
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Post by Catilina on Jun 5, 2018 10:56:59 GMT
Vivienne would approve. I think she would support the annulment too. I'm not so sure. Her party banter with Cassandra has her state that the templars needed better oversight, and the epilogue if she becomes Divine states that she shortens their leashes a good deal. (I wouldn't find that quite so worrisome if someone who wasn't Vivienne was holding that leash, because she's not exactly wrong that they could have used a bit more oversight and a bit less discretion.) She would support Meredith, I'm sure. She fears more the freedom of the mages than feels sorry for killing a few hundred innocents mage. And of course, she would support the Annulment, the Tranquility, Harrowing... every shit what was before. The epilogue wording: "more freedom" but they had not any freedom. And I think that leash is the lyrium – what else? I'm absolutely no doubt about her methods: if Leliana's the Divine. She plays with the people's fear – so she try to keep the paranoia alive and uses her influences against Leliana and the College of Enchanters. This is evil. Not mentioned: she was against the revolution, but she started to destabilize Leliana's system , for her own interests. And again: with using peoples fear. According to me, this is the evilest thing I can imagine. This is like Petrice with political power.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jun 5, 2018 18:58:43 GMT
Anyone: I think Vivienne's OK. Catilina: *kicks down the door* ACTUALLY- <iframe width="23.960000000000036" height="3.3799999999999955" style="position: absolute; width: 23.960000000000036px; height: 3.3799999999999955px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none;left: 15px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_29544358" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="23.960000000000036" height="3.3799999999999955" style="position: absolute; width: 23.96px; height: 3.38px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1138px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_23912337" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="23.960000000000036" height="3.3799999999999955" style="position: absolute; width: 23.96px; height: 3.38px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 110px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_57728384" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="23.960000000000036" height="3.3799999999999955" style="position: absolute; width: 23.96px; height: 3.38px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1138px; top: 110px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_89643033" scrolling="no"></iframe> I didn't even say that, actually. I am worried about Vivienne's amoral tendencies, not least because Cassandra isn't willing to work for her past a certain point. It's been pointed out that she's willing to work with a Steeled Leiliana, who she has at least as many differences with politically and is very willing to shed blood. I doubt the relevant difference is that Vivienne is a mage, since Cassandra still misses her mage lover who died at the Conclave, and is working quite productively with my mage Adaar right now. So what could it be, if we even want to know? The only thing I said was that there's evidence Vivienne wouldn't support the Annulment in this case. Because I'm pretty sure there is. Vivienne said the templars needed more oversight, and if this isn't what motivated her to say it, what could be?
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Post by Catilina on Jun 5, 2018 19:45:47 GMT
Anyone: I think Vivienne's OK. Catilina: *kicks down the door* ACTUALLY- I didn't even say that, actually. I am worried about Vivienne's amoral tendencies, not least because Cassandra isn't willing to work for her past a certain point. It's been pointed out that she's willing to work with a Steeled Leiliana, who she has at least as many differences with politically and is very willing to shed blood. I doubt the relevant difference is that Vivienne is a mage, since Cassandra still misses her mage lover who died at the Conclave, and is working quite productively with my mage Adaar right now. So what could it be, if we even want to know? The only thing I said was that there's evidence Vivienne wouldn't support the Annulment in this case. Because I'm pretty sure there is. Vivienne said the templars needed more oversight, and if this isn't what motivated her to say it, what could be? Yes, she said: the Templar need more oversight (at first, she's bitter at the Templars, at second, according to her everyone needs more oversight – if she's who control them...), but I'm sure she would never let the mages run freely, if she would able to try to prevent it – no matter the cost. She would support Meredith – because of she would agree with her in this case, and she would want to prove: there are chantry loyal "good" mages too. And she's one of them. I'm sure she wouldn't support Meredith's methods – but I'm sure, she would see her methods even better than the freedom for the mages. What's your proof?
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Post by pathogen7 on Jun 12, 2018 16:48:35 GMT
xD
Just messing around Catilina lol. I admire your passion on the mage-templar debate.
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Post by Lazarillo on Jun 12, 2018 19:29:51 GMT
xD
Just messing around Catilina lol. I admire your passion on the mage-templar debate. I think you're vastly overstating how far one needs to go to bait her, really. "I think Mages..." is probably sufficient.
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N3
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition
Posts: 369 Likes: 1,014
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Post by pavellaning on Jun 17, 2018 20:48:43 GMT
Again, my Mage Ionie is siding with Meredith. But then again, she is really against blood magic. Sooo, she figured that supporting the Templars would stop that. But then again she made Feynriel a Tranquil... and sent a bunch of fellow apostates back to the Circle... *whistles innocently*
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Post by Catilina on Jun 17, 2018 21:30:45 GMT
Again, my Mage Ionie is siding with Meredith. But then again, she is really against blood magic. Sooo, she figured that supporting the Templars would stop that. But then again she made Feynriel a Tranquil... and sent a bunch of fellow apostates back to the Circle... *whistles innocently* Why she tranquilized Feynriel?
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Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition
Posts: 369 Likes: 1,014
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Post by pavellaning on Jun 17, 2018 21:40:45 GMT
Again, my Mage Ionie is siding with Meredith. But then again, she is really against blood magic. Sooo, she figured that supporting the Templars would stop that. But then again she made Feynriel a Tranquil... and sent a bunch of fellow apostates back to the Circle... *whistles innocently* Why she tranquilized Feynriel? She is a jerk. That is all.
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Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition
Posts: 369 Likes: 1,014
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Post by pavellaning on Jun 19, 2018 17:33:36 GMT
In my current playthrough, my Mage Hawke (Ionie) has this massive lesbian crush on Meredith... sooo she supports her. Selfish and driven by lust but that is how I am playing my character.
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September 2016
riverdaleswhiteflash
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jun 20, 2018 4:39:44 GMT
Why she tranquilized Feynriel? She is a jerk. That is all. That's all? Really? Nothing about how he's plagued by demons or anything?
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