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Post by kalreegar on Sept 23, 2020 15:14:37 GMT
I always take meredith's side.
First of all, because my Hawke is always an adventurer, an opportunist, a cynical social climber. He's become rich, noble, he's the glorified champion of Kirkwall. Meredith represent the established power, Orsino and Anders represent the unknown, the revolution. Hawke has no interest in overturning the status quo, in challenging the Templars, the Church, the whole southern Thedas rulers. On the contrary, he has every interest in crushing every revolt and remaining the served and revered champion.
Secondly, because there are no valid alternatives to the circle system. I have always found Fenris' analyses and the "teveniter slippery slope theory" very convincing.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 23, 2020 15:37:14 GMT
I always take meredith's side.
First of all, because my Hawke is always an adventurer, an opportunist, a cynical social climber. He's become rich, noble, he's the glorified champion of Kirkwall. Meredith represent the established power, Orsino and Anders represent the unknown, the revolution. Hawke has no interest in overturning the status quo, in challenging the Templars, the Church, the whole southern Thedas rulers. On the contrary, he has every interest in crushing every revolt and remaining the served and revered champion.
Secondly, because there are no valid alternatives to the circle system. I have always found Fenris' analyses and the "teveniter slippery slope theory" very convincing. From power-hungry view, of course. I don't think, Fenris' (understandable) fears are valid points to support Meredith's annulment... or even to think, the Circles are a solution. This isn't analysis of the situation of the Southern, but fear – even if this fear absolutely understandable, as I said. Orsino doesn't represent the revolution, he just wanted to stop Meredith, didn't see further away the Circle, he didn't dare. He ossified in the system, while hated it. Every arguments of Anders about the Circle is convincing (he was the first character I agreed about the Circle-system – Jowan had not that strong inner-fire, arguments, just wanted to be free) – even in Awakening – but in Awakening, he was almost like Orsino in this question: he didn't believe it can change, and he saw, if it happens, will be disastrous. But later, because of Justice, he saw, it's possible, and he should do something, and he saw, this disaster is inevitable for the freedom. I see, your Hawke has not. I saw your Hawke, and good RP, undoubtedly. But this is not true about every Hawke. By the way: crushing every revolt doesn't serve to keep the "revered" fame... but can serve to achieve the "tyrant", "cruel", "power-hungry" fame.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Sept 23, 2020 16:16:22 GMT
On the contrary, he has every interest in crushing every revolt and remaining the served and revered champion. Which would necessitate getting rid of Meredith as well. She views Hawke as competition at best. Of course, it could be argued that either ending achieves this, though as far as I remember the templars chase off Vicsount Hawke eventually.
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Post by kalreegar on Sept 23, 2020 16:17:42 GMT
I always take meredith's side.
First of all, because my Hawke is always an adventurer, an opportunist, a cynical social climber. He's become rich, noble, he's the glorified champion of Kirkwall. Meredith represent the established power, Orsino and Anders represent the unknown, the revolution. Hawke has no interest in overturning the status quo, in challenging the Templars, the Church, the whole southern Thedas rulers. On the contrary, he has every interest in crushing every revolt and remaining the served and revered champion.
Secondly, because there are no valid alternatives to the circle system. I have always found Fenris' analyses and the "teveniter slippery slope theory" very convincing. From power-hungry view, of course. I don't think, Fenris' (understandable) fears are valid points to support Meredith's annulment... or even to think, the Circles are a solution. This isn't analysis of the situation of the Southern, but fear – even if this fear absolutely understandable, as I said. Orsino doesn't represent the revolution, he just wanted to stop Meredith, didn't see further away the Circle, he didn't dare. He ossified in the system, while hated it. Every arguments of Anders about the Circle is convincing (he was the first character I agreed about the Circle-system – Jowan had not that strong inner-fire, arguments, just wanted to be free) – even in Awakening – but in Awakening, he was almost like Orsino in this question: he didn't believe it can change, and he saw, if it happens, will be disastrous. But later, because of Justice, he saw, it's possible, and he should do something, and he saw, this disaster is inevitable for the freedom. Those (individuals or groups) who have power (economic, military, technological) tend to try to accumulate more and more power and oppress or exploit those who do not have it. It is a "historical law", a natural law, almost. Cases of virtuoso "self-restrain" exist but are not frequent. Constraints, limits, sanctions... are therefore necessary. In the thedas, where magicians can potentially reach inconceivable (and potentially very dangerous) levels of power, almost god-like levels, constraints, limits and sanctions must be proportionate. Therefore, the circles. Or the system of qunari... or something like that. To rely on the good will and ethical rigour... I don't think so. Too naive. Greed (like Gordon Gekko) is human, and mages are human too. In my opinion there are very good reasons to believe that, in the long run, there are no other alternatives. Or circles, or tevinter.(old or new). Or the Evanarius. Hey, both worked, in their own way. my hawke respects the mages' desire for freedom, it is absolutely legitimate, logical and understandable, but: a. he considers it contrary to his interests b. he considers naive the idea that an autonomous and independent "self-management" is possible. The self-management of mages has two potential outcomes, in the medium-long term: anarchy (some mages areable limit themselves, others risk destroying the world in their lust for power or knowledge... as has already happened several times); or tevinter 2.0 (mages give themselves rules, organisation, limits and sanctions to those who "goes to far"... but they will inevitably become very veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery powerful. And therefore, they take control).
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Post by Catilina on Sept 23, 2020 16:20:48 GMT
On the contrary, he has every interest in crushing every revolt and remaining the served and revered champion. Which would necessitate getting rid of Meredith as well. She views Hawke as competition at best. Of course, it could be argued that either ending achieves this, though as far as I remember the templars chase off Vicsount Hawke eventually. At the moment, we don't know that – true, Hawke also doesn't know at the moment, to spare some mages and to face with meredith will be an option. If Hawke sides with Meredith Hawke should accept the Annulment (every mage in the circle will die, without exception) and the fact s/he will a part of it, and Meredith's tyranny...
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Post by kalreegar on Sept 23, 2020 16:27:16 GMT
On the contrary, he has every interest in crushing every revolt and remaining the served and revered champion. Which would necessitate getting rid of Meredith as well. She views Hawke as competition at best. Of course, it could be argued that either ending achieves this, though as far as I remember the templars chase off Vicsount Hawke eventually. Hawke got rid of much worse Btw, if she had not been possessed by the red-lyrium-thing, but had been simply a paranoid psychopath, cullen would have simply removed/dismissed her when she ordered hawke to be arrested. without too many problems A clarification, perhaps. Rather than siding with meredith (as a person, lunatic commander), it is more in hawke's interest to side/maintain good relations with the Templars (as Kirkwall's top organization and real power centre) and the chantry
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Post by Catilina on Sept 23, 2020 16:42:14 GMT
From power-hungry view, of course. I don't think, Fenris' (understandable) fears are valid points to support Meredith's annulment... or even to think, the Circles are a solution. This isn't analysis of the situation of the Southern, but fear – even if this fear absolutely understandable, as I said. Orsino doesn't represent the revolution, he just wanted to stop Meredith, didn't see further away the Circle, he didn't dare. He ossified in the system, while hated it. Every arguments of Anders about the Circle is convincing (he was the first character I agreed about the Circle-system – Jowan had not that strong inner-fire, arguments, just wanted to be free) – even in Awakening – but in Awakening, he was almost like Orsino in this question: he didn't believe it can change, and he saw, if it happens, will be disastrous. But later, because of Justice, he saw, it's possible, and he should do something, and he saw, this disaster is inevitable for the freedom. Those (individuals or groups) who have power (economic, military, technological) tend to try to accumulate more and more power and oppress or exploit those who do not have it. It is a "historical law", a natural law, almost. Cases of virtuoso "self-restrain" exist but are not frequent. Constraints, limits, sanctions... are therefore necessary. In the thedas, where magicians can potentially reach inconceivable (and potentially very dangerous) levels of power, almost god-like levels, constraints, limits and sanctions must be proportionate. Therefore, the circles. Or the system of qunari... or something like that. To rely on the good will and ethical rigour... I don't think so. Too naive. Greed (like Gordon Gekko) is human, and mages are human too. In my opinion there are very good reasons to believe that, in the long run, there are no other alternatives. Or circles, or tevinter.(old or new). Or the Evanarius. Hey, both worked, in their own way. my hawke respects the mages' desire for freedom, it is absolutely legitimate, logical and understandable, but: a. he considers it contrary to his interests b. he considers naive the idea that an autonomous and independent "self-management" is possible. The self-management of mages has two potential outcomes, in the medium-long term: anarchy (some mages areable limit themselves, others risk destroying the world in their lust for power or knowledge... as has already happened several times); or tevinter 2.0 (mages give themselves rules, organisation, limits and sanctions to those who "goes to far"... but they will inevitably become very veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery powerful. And therefore, they take control). They live in a society, and they're a little minority. And even less mage able to be that powerful. So: a just law and an effective anti-magical force –with mages and non-mages– is good enough for it, and I wouldn't drop the morality. Only a few of us will try to kill their neighbour just because stronger, and able to kill... What kind of self-management and autonomy you speak about? They live in a society, this self-management and autonomy is not totally independent of the whole society, just like in the case of the other people, they should work with the others, as everyone should. But not locked in a tower. Freedom is not chaos, and the chaos is not freedom, but the prison-Circles aren't solution – but rather cause more danger – and false sense of security. We experienced Connor, for example, and also we can't ignore: it ended in a war... Very safe, isn't... Back to the powerful ones... the Circle was not able to restrain them.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 23, 2020 16:44:54 GMT
Which would necessitate getting rid of Meredith as well. She views Hawke as competition at best. Of course, it could be argued that either ending achieves this, though as far as I remember the templars chase off Vicsount Hawke eventually. Hawke got rid of much worse Btw, if she had not been possessed by the red-lyrium-thing, but had been simply a paranoid psychopath, cullen would have simply removed/dismissed her when she ordered hawke to be arrested. without too many problems A clarification, perhaps. Rather than siding with meredith (as a person, lunatic commander), it is more in hawke's interest to side/maintain good relations with the Templars (as Kirkwall's top organization and real power centre) and the chantry Your Hawke – not all Hawke – especially if not believe, the Templars should rule over the civilians. Hawke is a hero, the Champion of Kirkwall. Heroes can be different, so: while not excluded, they're politicians, they can be rebellious... it's absolutely NOT without example. In fact, the history knows very much rebellious heroes – including some nobles. Not mentioned... many heroes in the legends about to stand by hopeless causes, and this makes them hero.
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Post by kalreegar on Sept 23, 2020 17:05:46 GMT
Back to the powerful ones... the Circle was not able to restrain them. To restrain every single, powerful "outlaw"? No. Very difficult. But as long as he is alone, "wanted dead or alive", he is easier to kill, to isolate, and less easy for him to find the means and the allies and resources to accumulate enough power to create excessive trouble. there will always be rebels, maleficarum, revolts, in the system of circles. Eh... well, patience. But to restrain the mage as a group? As a powerful élite that, if coordinated, is potentially able to take control and maintain it? Yes. This system has worked for a millennium. The tevinter has also worked for millennia. both systems are efficient and proven. Only the second one is not the best for non-mages self-management? Freedom? utopia, IMO. Can only work on a small scale and for a short time. Or at least that's what I think. What I (and consequently, my canon hawke) believe is more likely to happen in a world like Thedas. Opinable, of course.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 23, 2020 17:16:29 GMT
Back to the powerful ones... the Circle was not able to restrain them. To restrain every single, powerful "outlaw"? No. Very difficult. But as long as he is alone, "wanted dead or alive", he is easier to kill, to isolate, and less easy for him to find the means and the allies and resources to accumulate enough power to create excessive trouble. there will always be rebels, maleficarum, revolts, in the system of circles. Eh... well, patience. But to restrain the mage as a group? As a powerful élite that, if coordinated, is potentially able to take control and maintain it? Yes. This system has worked for a millennium. The tevinter has also worked for millennia. both systems are efficient and proven. Only the second one is not the best for non-mages self-management? Freedom? utopia, IMO. Can only work on a small scale and for a short time. Or at least that's what I think. What I (and consequently, my canon hawke) believe is more likely to happen in a world like Thedas. Opinable, of course. You speak about them like they're some homogenous mass, but they have very different interest – just like the other people. Again: which kind of self-management? They live in a society... Freedom is not a utopia, well known in Thedas: Andraste herself was a freedom fighter.
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Post by kalreegar on Sept 23, 2020 18:01:16 GMT
To restrain every single, powerful "outlaw"? No. Very difficult. But as long as he is alone, "wanted dead or alive", he is easier to kill, to isolate, and less easy for him to find the means and the allies and resources to accumulate enough power to create excessive trouble. there will always be rebels, maleficarum, revolts, in the system of circles. Eh... well, patience. But to restrain the mage as a group? As a powerful élite that, if coordinated, is potentially able to take control and maintain it? Yes. This system has worked for a millennium. The tevinter has also worked for millennia. both systems are efficient and proven. Only the second one is not the best for non-mages self-management? Freedom? utopia, IMO. Can only work on a small scale and for a short time. Or at least that's what I think. What I (and consequently, my canon hawke) believe is more likely to happen in a world like Thedas. Opinable, of course. You speak about them like they're some homogenous mass, but they have very different interest – just like the other people. Again: which kind of self-management? They live in a society... Freedom is not a utopia, well known in Thedas: Andraste herself was a freedom fighter. yes but, just like other people, can be weak, greedy, frustrated, envious, curious, eager to overcome limits ... but considerably more powerful. In some cases, incredibly more powerful than ordinary people. it is enough that a certain percentage of mages decides that it would be nice to take power, and then acquire more and more power, it becomes very difficult to oppose them, and eventually remove them from power, if left free to act undisturbed Self-management = being able to do the things everyone does, manage their lives, set goals, pursue ambitions, organize in groups and factions, go around doing what you like, decide for yourself what can be done and what cannot etc.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 23, 2020 19:25:35 GMT
You speak about them like they're some homogenous mass, but they have very different interest – just like the other people. Again: which kind of self-management? They live in a society... Freedom is not a utopia, well known in Thedas: Andraste herself was a freedom fighter. yes but, just like other people, can be weak, greedy, frustrated, envious, curious, eager to overcome limits ... but considerably more powerful. In some cases, incredibly more powerful than ordinary people. it is enough that a certain percentage of mages decides that it would be nice to take power, and then acquire more and more power, it becomes very difficult to oppose them, and eventually remove them from power, if left free to act undisturbed Self-management = being able to do the things everyone does, manage their lives, set goals, pursue ambitions, organize in groups and factions, go around doing what you like, decide for yourself what can be done and what cannot etc. They can be everything like you described but I still not see, the Circle as solution of anything. I see the danger instead of any benefit (I told already, why). The Circle can't prevent those ambitions, not the ones, who really wants... only they can lock the ones who don't have those ambitions – and not powerful enough to break out. And powerful mages can have different goals: not just to rule over the others – but to protect the others? This also a good goal, and can be very satisfying. We saw examples of mage heroes. Fenris himself said, among the Magisters there are good, noble people, who deserve their status... As I said: they're not the same. Of course, they're able to manage themselves, like everyone else. And: we still in Kirkwall, where an unleashed madwoman rules over the city. Sure she's the best idea to restore any order? Not mentioned: she animated sculptures with her paranoia... And she's not a mage...
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 23, 2020 21:14:13 GMT
Btw, if she had not been possessed by the red-lyrium-thing, but had been simply a paranoid psychopath, cullen would have simply removed/dismissed her when she ordered hawke to be arrested. without too many problems You underestimate the power of the commanding officer. When Cullen objected I didn't notice the other Templar rushing to support him. If Hawke is a mage and Carver a Templar, there is just him. So Meredith might well have accused Cullen of mutiny and had him arrested too. Templars can be weak and spineless in the face of the guy in charge - just look at how certain Templars in DAI react to their commanding officer punching a defenceless cleric.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 23, 2020 21:24:03 GMT
self-management? Freedom? utopia, IMO. Can only work on a small scale and for a short time. Or at least that's what I think. What I (and consequently, my canon hawke) believe is more likely to happen in a world like Thedas. Opinable, of course. Actually it worked in the south until Drakon decided to simplify things with his Chantry and even then mages weren't forced into Circles as they were later. They went there because there were limits on the magic they could do in the community but nevertheless mages were permitted to be there provided they weren't in positions of power. Even so, remember the last Inquisitor of the Divine Age was an elven mage who was both a friend of the Emperor and trusted by people, which is why Drakon wanted him to be the one to bring the Inquisition under the Chantry umbrella. There is also the situation in Nevarra. The Mortalitasi hold a lot of power but in Tevinter Nights one of their number actually feels they are better off not having to bother themselves with ruling the masses but leaving that problem to the non mages. I'd also mention that based off the events in DA2, the Templars were actually useless at policing mages. All they did for the entirety of the game was beat up on the obedient mages in the Circle. All the really dangerous mages were on the outside running loose in the city. It was Hawke, who could be a mage, with their mage companions who was continually dealing with rogue mages on the outside. Everyone, even Meredith, recognised Hawke was better at this than the Templars were.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by michaeln7 on Sept 24, 2020 1:25:59 GMT
At the risk of showing independent thought...
I side with Meredith in the end.
If understanding and context don't matter to you, then feel free to ignore this.
So, for context: I've spent the last 10 years, as a mage, trying to do right by Kirkwall. -Discovering and removing corruption within the Kirkwall Guard. -Securing employment for refugees, at great expense and risk to myself. -Managing to reduce the slave trade from Tevinter. -Providing aid to victims of violent crime. -Assisting both the Templars and the Circle; on a case-by-case basis. -Listening to both sides and negotiating between them. -Stopping the Arishok mano-a-mano.
Orsino tries "too hard" to be a victim. I don't doubt that he genuinely means well, but there's something about him that just gives me the willies.
The note I found on my mother's murderer comes from someone named "O" who has deep ties to magical secrets, and there's no one else I know that matches that description.
I have no proof.
Someone I've grown to regard with respect, almost like a brother after helping him with Justice, has now committed an unspeakable atrocity.
My attempts at bringing peace and understanding have now failed. No matter what I choose, innocent lives have been lost.
So I decide to do everything I can to minimize the damage.
The Templars are now going to execute the Mages, but ONLY the Mages. Whereas the Mages, out of tragic desperation, are now attacking everyone.
My remaining friends, my home, my brother, and my life are in danger.
This is an INCREDIBLY unfair situation. I want to remain neutral, but I can't turn on my own brother.
And, on a more pragmatic note, perhaps siding with Meredith can temper her fury and further reinforce that I have done nothing save it be for the good of Kirkwall and it's people.
I execute Anders, for it would seem that the "Anders" I thought I knew died long ago.
I can spare the mages who have in no way contributed to this debacle.
Now, Orsino has confirmed my suspicions, revealing himself to have been complicit in the murder of my mother and showing me firsthand just how insane blood magic can get.
Now Meredith has lost her mind, the red lyrium having exacted its final price.
She is defeated, and I now hold the throne I never wanted.
|-|-||-||-||-|-| |-|-||-||-||-|-| \-\-|-||-|-/-/ \-\-|--|-/-/ |-|-||-|-| |-|-||-|-| |-|-||-|-|
That's just a text-style version of Kirkwall architecture.
Dragon Age 2 is one of the most thought-provoking tragedies I have ever played. No matter how good you are, you can't stop the tide.
You're cursed to be a witness.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 24, 2020 3:48:44 GMT
At the risk of showing independent thought...
I side with Meredith in the end.
If understanding and context don't matter to you, then feel free to ignore this.
So, for context: I've spent the last 10 years, as a mage, trying to do right by Kirkwall. -Discovering and removing corruption within the Kirkwall Guard. -Securing employment for refugees, at great expense and risk to myself. -Managing to reduce the slave trade from Tevinter. -Providing aid to victims of violent crime. -Assisting both the Templars and the Circle; on a case-by-case basis. -Listening to both sides and negotiating between them. -Stopping the Arishok mano-a-mano.
Orsino tries "too hard" to be a victim. I don't doubt that he genuinely means well, but there's something about him that just gives me the willies.
The note I found on my mother's murderer comes from someone named "O" who has deep ties to magical secrets, and there's no one else I know that matches that description.
I have no proof.
Someone I've grown to regard with respect, almost like a brother after helping him with Justice, has now committed an unspeakable atrocity.
My attempts at bringing peace and understanding have now failed. No matter what I choose, innocent lives have been lost.
So I decide to do everything I can to minimize the damage.
The Templars are now going to execute the Mages, but ONLY the Mages. Whereas the Mages, out of tragic desperation, are now attacking everyone.
My remaining friends, my home, my brother, and my life are in danger.
This is an INCREDIBLY unfair situation. I want to remain neutral, but I can't turn on my own brother.
And, on a more pragmatic note, perhaps siding with Meredith can temper her fury and further reinforce that I have done nothing save it be for the good of Kirkwall and it's people.
I execute Anders, for it would seem that the "Anders" I thought I knew died long ago.
I can spare the mages who have in no way contributed to this debacle.
Now, Orsino has confirmed my suspicions, revealing himself to have been complicit in the murder of my mother and showing me firsthand just how insane blood magic can get.
Now Meredith has lost her mind, the red lyrium having exacted its final price.
She is defeated, and I now hold the throne I never wanted.
|-|-||-||-||-|-| |-|-||-||-||-|-| \-\-|-||-|-/-/ \-\-|--|-/-/ |-|-||-|-| |-|-||-|-| |-|-||-|-|
That's just a text-style version of Kirkwall architecture.
Dragon Age 2 is one of the most thought-provoking tragedies I have ever played. No matter how good you are, you can't stop the tide.
You're cursed to be a witness.
Why would the right thing to support "both sides"? I think, this is a trap... Seems nice... "peaceful"... but... Like if in Tevinter: a little we help the slaves to escape, but a little we help the Magisters to stop the openly rebellious slaves, because of the violence doesn't solve anything? And why Hawke should prove anything? Especially as mage. Hawke was persecuted, what Hawke should prove? Sounds wrong to me, even if the game suggests, that Hawke (and Anders, and every mage) should prove, s/he's a "good mage"... not like the "others"... What makes a mage "good mage"? Of course, if they're agreeing with their imprisonment innocently because they're "dangerous", or... if not fully agreeing, then accepting that the system is right... (the OTHERS should be locked). But we (Hawke, Anders etc, every mage) prove, that we are worthy, we MAYBE will DESERVE and MAYBE we EARN our freedom. But we have to prove. And if one of us falls, the again and again and again... Rofl NO! This is misguidance! So yes, a very thought-provoking game, and as time passed from my first PT (when it released) – more and more I believe, the compromise is the worst in similar cases. I see that the mage side is absolutely not sad, nor even bitter, but a satisfactory choice – and Hawke exile is triumphant. Hawke was able to left everything to help those people – who were sentenced to death. Besides that Anders is right about the non-exsistent compromise and the possibility of peace here, just look at Meredith. And we will see, that siding with the mages is the best way even to minimize the loss. Hawke doesn't have meta knowledge. When Meredith order Hawke to help her in the massacre (the Annulment means kill EVERY mages kid or adult, apprentice or full fledged mage, no matters), Hawke doesn't know, s/he will be able to save some surrenders. Hawke just sees a madwoman with irrational bloodthirsty. Such person really the best choice to restore the order? We, the players know, Hawke will be able to face with her – but Hawke doesn't. But Hawke probably able to figure, the mages will leave Kirkwall, as soon as it possible and with the Maker's or the blind fortune's help, the main danger on the city will die by Hawke's hand. Absolutely win situation. Who cares about Orsino? He's nothing in this game (my opinion about him is totally different, but this is NO matter). Again: Orsino is NOT the part of the game. He doesn't matter: he's a senior prisoner. Who matters are the others. They really deserve that? Absolutely NOT. Whatever is Orsino. I see: this is the right choice – even if Carver is a Templar (I tried to siding with him once – it was terrible feeling!), but if not, Carver will be angry at Hawke if betrays the mages. Still help, but... And Bethany? Who can betray Bethany? Hawke doesn't know, Meredith will spare her. The annulment is not about it. Hawke will risk her life with this choice, and even if believes some miracle – Bethany leaves – and fights against the Templars. And Hawke had no chance to protect her. Carver CHOSE to become a Templar. Hawke and Bethany BORN as mage.
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Post by michaeln7 on Sept 24, 2020 5:35:23 GMT
At the risk of showing independent thought...
I side with Meredith in the end.
If understanding and context don't matter to you, then feel free to ignore this.
So, for context: I've spent the last 10 years, as a mage, trying to do right by Kirkwall. -Discovering and removing corruption within the Kirkwall Guard. -Securing employment for refugees, at great expense and risk to myself. -Managing to reduce the slave trade from Tevinter. -Providing aid to victims of violent crime. -Assisting both the Templars and the Circle; on a case-by-case basis. -Listening to both sides and negotiating between them. -Stopping the Arishok mano-a-mano.
Orsino tries "too hard" to be a victim. I don't doubt that he genuinely means well, but there's something about him that just gives me the willies.
The note I found on my mother's murderer comes from someone named "O" who has deep ties to magical secrets, and there's no one else I know that matches that description.
I have no proof.
Someone I've grown to regard with respect, almost like a brother after helping him with Justice, has now committed an unspeakable atrocity.
My attempts at bringing peace and understanding have now failed. No matter what I choose, innocent lives have been lost.
So I decide to do everything I can to minimize the damage.
The Templars are now going to execute the Mages, but ONLY the Mages. Whereas the Mages, out of tragic desperation, are now attacking everyone.
My remaining friends, my home, my brother, and my life are in danger.
This is an INCREDIBLY unfair situation. I want to remain neutral, but I can't turn on my own brother.
And, on a more pragmatic note, perhaps siding with Meredith can temper her fury and further reinforce that I have done nothing save it be for the good of Kirkwall and it's people.
I execute Anders, for it would seem that the "Anders" I thought I knew died long ago.
I can spare the mages who have in no way contributed to this debacle.
Now, Orsino has confirmed my suspicions, revealing himself to have been complicit in the murder of my mother and showing me firsthand just how insane blood magic can get.
Now Meredith has lost her mind, the red lyrium having exacted its final price.
She is defeated, and I now hold the throne I never wanted.
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That's just a text-style version of Kirkwall architecture.
Dragon Age 2 is one of the most thought-provoking tragedies I have ever played. No matter how good you are, you can't stop the tide.
You're cursed to be a witness.
Why would the right thing to support "both sides"? I think, this is a trap... Seems nice... "peaceful"... but... Like if in Tevinter: a little we help the slaves to escape, but a little we help the Magisters to stop the openly rebellious slaves, because of the violence doesn't solve anything? And why Hawke should prove anything? Especially as mage. Hawke was persecuted, what Hawke should prove? Sounds wrong to me, even if the game suggests, that Hawke (and Anders, and every mage) should prove, s/he's a "good mage"... not like the "others"... What makes a mage "good mage"? Of course, if they're agreeing with their imprisonment innocently because they're "dangerous", or... if not fully agreeing, then accepting that the system is right... (the OTHERS should be locked). But we (Hawke, Anders etc, every mage) prove, that we are worthy, we MAYBE will DESERVE and MAYBE we EARN our freedom. But we have to prove. And if one of us falls, the again and again and again... Rofl NO! This is misguidance! So yes, a very thought-provoking game, and as time passed from my first PT (when it released) – more and more I believe, the compromise is the worst in similar cases. I see that the mage side is absolutely not sad, nor even bitter, but a satisfactory choice – and Hawke exile is triumphant. Hawke was able to left everything to help those people – who were sentenced to death. Besides that Anders is right about the non-exsistent compromise and the possibility of peace here, just look at Meredith. And we will see, that siding with the mages is the best way even to minimize the loss. Hawke doesn't have meta knowledge. When Meredith order Hawke to help her in the massacre (the Annulment means kill EVERY mages kid or adult, apprentice or full fledged mage, no matters), Hawke doesn't know, s/he will be able to save some surrenders. Hawke just sees a madwoman with irrational bloodthirsty. Such person really the best choice to restore the order? We, the players know, Hawke will be able to face with her – but Hawke doesn't. But Hawke probably able to figure, the mages will leave Kirkwall, as soon as it possible and with the Maker's or the blind fortune's help, the main danger on the city will die by Hawke's hand. Absolutely win situation. Who cares about Orsino? He's nothing in this game (my opinion about him is totally different, but this is NO matter). Again: Orsino is NOT the part of the game. He doesn't matter: he's a senior prisoner. Who matters are the others. They really deserve that? Absolutely NOT. Whatever is Orsino. I see: this is the right choice – even if Carver is a Templar (I tried to siding with him once – it was terrible feeling!), but if not, Carver will be angry at Hawke if betrays the mages. Still help, but... And Bethany? Who can betray Bethany? Hawke doesn't know, Meredith will spare her. The annulment is not about it. Hawke will risk her life with this choice, and even if believes some miracle – Bethany leaves – and fights against the Templars. And Hawke had no chance to protect her. Carver CHOSE to become a Templar. Hawke and Bethany BORN as mage. Okay
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Post by michaeln7 on Sept 24, 2020 7:43:35 GMT
I suppose if I wanted to meta-game, I'd side with the Mages all the way, since that's what BioWare has pseudo-canoned. But given my experiences, it was very much a "Stop fighting, work together, or we're all gonna die" Which ended up becoming "Oh crap, they're killing each other, now I have to clean up the mess... AGAIN."
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Post by kalreegar on Sept 24, 2020 9:03:37 GMT
self-management? Freedom? utopia, IMO. Can only work on a small scale and for a short time. Or at least that's what I think. What I (and consequently, my canon hawke) believe is more likely to happen in a world like Thedas. Opinable, of course. Actually it worked in the south until Drakon decided to simplify things with his Chantry and even then mages weren't forced into Circles as they were later. They went there because there were limits on the magic they could do in the community but nevertheless mages were permitted to be there provided they weren't in positions of power. Even so, remember the last Inquisitor of the Divine Age was an elven mage who was both a friend of the Emperor and trusted by people, which is why Drakon wanted him to be the one to bring the Inquisition under the Chantry umbrella. There is also the situation in Nevarra. The Mortalitasi hold a lot of power but in Tevinter Nights one of their number actually feels they are better off not having to bother themselves with ruling the masses but leaving that problem to the non mages. I'd also mention that based off the events in DA2, the Templars were actually useless at policing mages. All they did for the entirety of the game was beat up on the obedient mages in the Circle. All the really dangerous mages were on the outside running loose in the city. It was Hawke, who could be a mage, with their mage companions who was continually dealing with rogue mages on the outside. Everyone, even Meredith, recognised Hawke was better at this than the Templars were. Install DRAGON AGE WIKI DRAGON AGE WIKI Nevarran Accord Inquisition heraldry DA2.png Inquisition Heraldry The Nevarran Accord was an agreement signed in 1:20 Divine[1] between the Inquisition and the Chantry to unite under one cause and establish the Chantry’s military arm. Together the Chantry and the Inquisition created the Circle of Magi[1][2] during the rule of Orlais’s Emperor Drakon I, who is sometimes credited with the creation of the Circles.[3] The Inquisition subsequently developed into two groups: the Templar Order and the Seekers of Truth.[4] From wikia "In the early years of the Divine Age, the Chantry was newly established in Orlais and the use of magic, though illegal, was rampant and unchecked. The Inquisition was a group who rose up to defend the people against the tyranny of magic in whatever form it might take, blood mages, abominations, cultists or heretics. After the first Blight, the Chantry recognized the mages’ value in helping protect humanity and so sought a better solution. In 1:20 Divine, the Nevarran Accord was signed, and the Inquisition agreed to lower its banner and submit to the authority of the Chantry. The mage hunters switched their focus from hunting to guarding mages and established the Templar Order as the wardens for the newly created Circle of Magi The senior members of the Inquisition became the Seekers of Truth, overseers of the templars and special agents of the Divine." So.. mages were hunted down, and controlled by inquistion's vigilantes. The Circle was almost an "humanitarian" choiche, a more legal and fair solution But the necessitity to keep in check the mages was never in doubt. A single rogue mad mage, or a group of maleficarum, can be a problem, maybe a big problem, but most of the times they can be dealt with. But if you allowed them to organize in big, powerful, legal factions, easily gather resources, grant access to forbidden knowledge, experiment, bold research ecc... in little time they will be impossible to stop. If they want to take control, they take control. Man, they are too OP if they are permitted to level up persuit their own ambitions. At least, this is what the lore (and the common sense) suggest. The Evanarius Gods. Solas destroying his own world. The tevinter empire. Magisters probably causing the blight. Tevinter Empire 2.0. Corypheus. Alexius and his creepy time magic. Solas wanting to go post-apocalyptic once more. I mean, I find difficult to argue that free, unchecked mages do not tendt to accumulate (both magical AND political) power and/or tragically mess with the fabric or reality.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 24, 2020 12:16:21 GMT
I suppose if I wanted to meta-game, I'd side with the Mages all the way, since that's what BioWare has pseudo-canoned. But given my experiences, it was very much a "Stop fighting, work together, or we're all gonna die" Which ended up becoming "Oh crap, they're killing each other, now I have to clean up the mess... AGAIN." The Annulment is just a massacre, it not about "work together". If Hawke feels s/he has to clean the city again, then should to start with Meredith, who was the cause of most of the mess in the city. Not because of her big red sword, but from the beginning.
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LadyofNemesis
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Post by LadyofNemesis on Sept 24, 2020 12:32:59 GMT
hmm.. you know, I've always wondered something about the Right of Annulment during Origins Wynne may tell the Warden "if they invoke the Right however, we cannot stand against them" there's dozens of mages at a time in a Circle, maybe even hundreds in one that is bigger...say there's only a third amount of templars present how is it that in regular circumstances one mage could kill dozens of templars without breaking a sweat, but "cannot stand against them" when the Right is invoked? what changes about the Templars that makes them that much more formidable during a RoA?
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Post by Catilina on Sept 24, 2020 12:43:12 GMT
Actually it worked in the south until Drakon decided to simplify things with his Chantry and even then mages weren't forced into Circles as they were later. They went there because there were limits on the magic they could do in the community but nevertheless mages were permitted to be there provided they weren't in positions of power. Even so, remember the last Inquisitor of the Divine Age was an elven mage who was both a friend of the Emperor and trusted by people, which is why Drakon wanted him to be the one to bring the Inquisition under the Chantry umbrella. There is also the situation in Nevarra. The Mortalitasi hold a lot of power but in Tevinter Nights one of their number actually feels they are better off not having to bother themselves with ruling the masses but leaving that problem to the non mages. I'd also mention that based off the events in DA2, the Templars were actually useless at policing mages. All they did for the entirety of the game was beat up on the obedient mages in the Circle. All the really dangerous mages were on the outside running loose in the city. It was Hawke, who could be a mage, with their mage companions who was continually dealing with rogue mages on the outside. Everyone, even Meredith, recognised Hawke was better at this than the Templars were. Install DRAGON AGE WIKI DRAGON AGE WIKI Nevarran Accord Inquisition heraldry DA2.png Inquisition Heraldry The Nevarran Accord was an agreement signed in 1:20 Divine[1] between the Inquisition and the Chantry to unite under one cause and establish the Chantry’s military arm. Together the Chantry and the Inquisition created the Circle of Magi[1][2] during the rule of Orlais’s Emperor Drakon I, who is sometimes credited with the creation of the Circles.[3] The Inquisition subsequently developed into two groups: the Templar Order and the Seekers of Truth.[4] From wikia "In the early years of the Divine Age, the Chantry was newly established in Orlais and the use of magic, though illegal, was rampant and unchecked. The Inquisition was a group who rose up to defend the people against the tyranny of magic in whatever form it might take, blood mages, abominations, cultists or heretics. After the first Blight, the Chantry recognized the mages’ value in helping protect humanity and so sought a better solution. In 1:20 Divine, the Nevarran Accord was signed, and the Inquisition agreed to lower its banner and submit to the authority of the Chantry. The mage hunters switched their focus from hunting to guarding mages and established the Templar Order as the wardens for the newly created Circle of Magi The senior members of the Inquisition became the Seekers of Truth, overseers of the templars and special agents of the Divine." So.. mages were hunted down, and controlled by inquistion's vigilantes. The Circle was almost an "humanitarian" choiche, a more legal and fair solution But the necessitity to keep in check the mages was never in doubt. A single rogue mad mage, or a group of maleficarum, can be a problem, maybe a big problem, but most of the times they can be dealt with. But if you allowed them to organize in big, powerful, legal factions, easily gather resources, grant access to forbidden knowledge, experiment, bold research ecc... in little time they will be impossible to stop. If they want to take control, they take control. Man, they are too OP if they are permitted to level up persuit their own ambitions. At least, this is what the lore (and the common sense) suggest. The Evanarius Gods. Solas destroying his own world. The tevinter empire. Magisters probably causing the blight. Tevinter Empire 2.0. Corypheus. Alexius and his creepy time magic. Solas wanting to go post-apocalyptic once more. I mean, I find difficult to argue that free, unchecked mages do not tendt to accumulate (both magical AND political) power and/or tragically mess with the fabric or reality. "Humanitarian" yes, in quotation mark. They just thought they're more useful gathered if they want to use them against the Blight. In Tevinter not the magic is the problem. The mages just as nobility, than the nobles in Orlais. Fiona for example was a slave of an Orlesain noble in her childhood. In her 7, she was used as pet... Celene burned a whole Alienage, and the Divine rewarded her with strengthen her position on the throne: so: she sacrificed the elves for more power – familiar, isn't? Also: as I said: Meredith animated sculptures as a non-mage. This is a magical world. The non-mages should learn to live the free mages instead of lock them. As Bethany says at Gallows, in mage side. Everything else just paranoia, dangerous, and makes false sense of security.
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Post by michaeln7 on Sept 24, 2020 12:50:20 GMT
I suppose if I wanted to meta-game, I'd side with the Mages all the way, since that's what BioWare has pseudo-canoned. But given my experiences, it was very much a "Stop fighting, work together, or we're all gonna die" Which ended up becoming "Oh crap, they're killing each other, now I have to clean up the mess... AGAIN." The Annulment is just a massacre, it not about "work together". If Hawke feels s/he has to clean the city again, then should to start with Meredith, who was the cause of most of the mess in the city. Not because of her big red sword, but from the beginning. All right
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Post by Catilina on Sept 24, 2020 13:50:05 GMT
hmm.. you know, I've always wondered something about the Right of Annulment during Origins Wynne may tell the Warden "if they invoke the Right however, we cannot stand against them" there's dozens of mages at a time in a Circle, maybe even hundreds in one that is bigger...say there's only a third amount of templars present how is it that in regular circumstances one mage could kill dozens of templars without breaking a sweat, but "cannot stand against them" when the Right is invoked? what changes about the Templars that makes them that much more formidable during a RoA? Good question... (Especially that Greagoir sent The Templars who wanted to leave, away.) Yes, many things about the Circles is weird and absolutely not grounded. How they can keep them inside... I'm sure in some Circle live ~1000+ mages. Ferelden has only ONE Circle, The Gallows is also HUGE, probably a "collection point", also a Templar centre. Plot holes. It's very hard to explain, how they can show it: "the mages are dangerous", yet, they can keep them in a fortress and torture and massacre them as they want, without consequences (there are no example, someone escaped from the Annulment...) But we saw some security things, mechanism in Origins: for example magical locks, force fields. so... We can't do anything just accept: they can do it, as they did in Dairsmuid, and more Circles before... According to the story, it is possible. Good story, with interesting questions, with sometimes lame execution... like many in game, but hard to explanation everything, when we don't live in a magical world. (It's like the Tranquility. This thing also have much inconsistency...)
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Post by kalreegar on Sept 24, 2020 14:04:14 GMT
In Tevinter not the magic is the problem. The mages just as nobility, than the nobles in Orlais. Fiona for example was a slave of an Orlesain noble in her childhood. In her 7, she was used as pet... Celene burned a whole Alienage, and the Divine rewarded her with strengthen her position on the throne: so: she sacrificed the elves for more power – familiar, isn't? Yes, it's very familiar, and it proves my point. Ordinary feudal nobility (with its wealth, military power etc) is (was, in our wolrd too) very difficult to counter, limit, hold accountable for his actions, punish and possibly, if they go too far, overthrow. Difficult, but not impossibile. And even if this kind of nobility is left free to abuse their power, they tended not to represent a danger to the survival of mankind. With Tevinter magician nobility things are different. imagine louis xvi or tsar nicholas ii, and their entire entourage of nobles and vassals, relying not only on economic and military power, but also on paranormal, semi-divine powers, capable of evoking demons, plagiarizing the mind, throwing fireballs over and over, shaping time and space, killing their enemies in their sleep, etc. Good luck to limit them and make them responsible And, of course, there is still the problem of ambitious magical experiments that cyclically bring thedas to the brink of catastrophe. No, the mages must be controlled, with the same safety protocols that we use with nuclear power plants. If the circles do not go well, okay, let's think about something else, but the solution cannot be "let's learn to live together and everyone lives his life as he sees fit". IMO. There are also elements that may suggest the opposite. Dragon Age lore is cool for this reason, there is no definitive sure answer to every question / doubt. But I say it again: Tevinter is, all considered, ok. it's scary as hell, but hey, it works. it's anders' anarchist-libertarian solution that's naive and unworkable. mages are either to be controlled, or they are going to take full power (and that can be somehow like almost... okay?). But I don't think there can be any middle ground, just slight variations of the two scenarios. Taking sides with the Templars means maintaining the status quo. siding with the ,ages (in my opinion I) means implicitly supporting (or accepting) the transformation of the south thedas into a new tevinter. This is also the reason why in my opinion Cassandra is absolutely the worst choice as Divine. It is either Vivienne's restoration, or Leliana's revolution.
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