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Post by Gandalf the Fabulous on Nov 11, 2017 16:40:45 GMT
One point that needs to be made is that even according to that video, this type of process isn't new for CDPR. Meaning that TW3 came out as it is despite going through what can only be described as a sub-optimal development process. So while I have sympathy for the guys who need to work under said conditions, and while ideally I'd like to see CDPR improving their process and making it more efficient (for their sake as well as their customers), it still means that any conclusions in regards to how Cyberpunk 2077 is going to fail horribly are premature to say the least. Again, TW3 and even more importantly - its expansions were created under this company, and under the same management. I see no rational reason to assume that Cyberpunk would be any lesser. Nobody says it's going to fail. It's pretty much impossible. The same people who loved Witcher, will love it too, particularly if it is more of the same. It's just if the new features they hoped to implement will be cut out to streamline the development, a tiny portion of players will be left out. Let's face it, CDPR is the wagon now, so peeps will ride it. There is zero chance Cyberpunk won't sell. From what we have heard so far I doubt it will be more of the same, they do seem to be going in a wildly different direction for Cyberpunk.
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Post by linksocarina on Nov 11, 2017 17:36:26 GMT
I guess we'll just have to wait for something more solid. With all do respect to YongYea guy, he doesn't have the same solid reputation someone like Jason Schreier has when it comes to uncovering these things, and considering how much time they still have these revelations might end up not being relevant at all. Well, here is what I got so far.Based on Kiciński's own words "Online is necessary, or very recommended if you wish to achieve a long-term success. At some point, we have mentioned that there will be a certain online element related to Cyberpunk.” Had to wait for a translated version of that interview, plus me asking around for translations. Gist of it is we don't know for sure what it will be, but previous rumors stated that it will be a hub area similar to the "Farm in Destiny 2" as a comparison. That doesn't mean it will be of course, but that is the speculation at the moment. Take that for what you will. With Kiciński's basically confirming some online play, it gives the rumor a bit more credence. As does their plans for Gwent going forward as a service game.
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Post by linksocarina on Nov 11, 2017 17:49:43 GMT
Well, here is what I got so far.Based on Kiciński's own words "Online is necessary, or very recommended if you wish to achieve a long-term success. At some point, we have mentioned that there will be a certain online element related to Cyberpunk.” Had to wait for a translated version of that interview, plus me asking around for translations. Gist of it is we don't know for sure what it will be, but previous rumors stated that it will be a hub area similar to the "Farm in Destiny 2" as a comparison. That doesn't mean it will be of course, but that is the speculation at the moment. Take that for what you will. With Kiciński's basically confirming some online play, it gives the rumor a bit more credence. As does their plans for Gwent going forward as a service game. Well, I don't particularly care at this point about the online social elements, as long as they un-intrusive and with an opt-in or opt-out option.
However, if Cyberpunk turns out to be another Destiny (which I somewhat doubt), that will likely be enough to cause me to lose interest.
I doubt it will be like Destiny either...but borrowing aspects of it for online design could be a given. Kind of like how Fallout 4 borrowed the sort of gun crafting from Destiny and implemented it into the mass-crafting of the entire game, Legendary status bits and all.
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Post by KaiserShep on Nov 11, 2017 18:01:56 GMT
The only person I have ever seen claim that Cyberpunk will be borrowing elements of Destiny is linksocarina and since he hasn't posted any sort of source to verify the claim I don't think I would put much stock in it. But it has been stated in the past and by far more reliable sources that Cyberpunk will allow more character customization this time around including gender options and class options, how deep these customization options go however is anyone's guess but I have heard that personal style is supposed to play a big part in the game. These statements were before the wave of lay offs, and the most recent rumors are contradicting one another. Yes, we do not know. It is still a very real possibility that they will discard the customization as irrelevant to their core customer base. As most people have stated in this very thread, it is a low value item for them in CDPR's work, so spending money on it makes no sense if the product can be sold without it, and the mindset in the player community is that it is actually better to have more precise facial animations and have a name come up in the dialogues than have a character that owned and created by the player. It is simply not popular any longer after the Witcher 3. In other words, Cyberpunk will do just fine without it and will please millions. What is the point of doing it if nobody really wants it? Man, this is why I rather dislike the player community. I'll be honest, if it does lack the customization options I've enjoyed from older, smaller games, I'm going to lose a lot of interest. I get that it'll probably sell a lot anyway, but that really only makes it a little worse.
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Post by slimgrin727 on Nov 11, 2017 18:06:58 GMT
The way he talks he makes TW3 sound like a warm up routine for Cyberpunk. That's basically what one of the mods from their forums told me as well - that they're investing far more heavily in 2077. He visited them earlier this month and all he would tell me is they have alot of people and look very busy. I didn't prod too much, but one wonders why CDPR is flying moderators over to their studio.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2017 21:01:36 GMT
There's never the weirdness caused by "but my character is a vanguard, why couldn't he just use a biotic charge to run away from the seeker swarm and get into the Normandy at the end of ME2?" But he is not your character.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2017 21:07:34 GMT
But he is not your character. And that's where everything else stops mattering to me. It's a matter of perspective I think. Choosing the hairstyle, skin color, gender and name are much less important to me than choosing the way I react to things in game. That is how I make a character my own.
When I put effort into actual role-playing that's what it's all about usually. (for the most part anyway)
I react to the game emotionally. I don't really care that his skill trees are 100% accurately reproduced in the narrative cutscenes. I am happy to cast the pretty spells when I fight. Technomancer has one of my favorite cutscenes, and they deal with emotions and body language, and are beautifully done from the artistic perspective.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2017 21:31:20 GMT
I react to the game emotionally. I don't really care that his skill trees are 100% accurately reproduced in the narrative cutscenes. I am happy to cast the pretty spells when I fight. Technomancer has one of my favorite cutscenes, and they deal with emotions and body language, and are beautifully done from the artistic perspective. I think that practically everyone who plays games reacts to them emotionally, you are hardly any different in that.
We just assign more importance to different aspects.
And, therefore we seek games that provides us with the aspects that enhance our gameplay. Hence, if the CDPR chose not to include the aspects that are the most important to me, I will again chose not to play their game. There is no animosity towards the company or their games. They are just not for me. I just have to hope that they will not consolidate the marker and drive the competition out in this case, because that's where I will be looking for other style of games. And I certainly won't be going to their forums to tell them they make bad games. They make good one. Just not intended for me.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2017 22:52:03 GMT
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Post by CHRrOME on Nov 12, 2017 12:57:21 GMT
In regards to the advantages of a more focused narrative, it's hardly only about facial animations or seeing the name in dialogue, it goes much deeper than that. When your game is about someone who is a Witcher, or in the Cyberpunk context a netrunner or a nomad, the game can react to your character in appropriate ways. There's never the weirdness caused by "but my character is a vanguard, why couldn't he just use a biotic charge to run away from the seeker swarm and get into the Normandy at the end of ME2?" Everything is tailored around your character and the skills they have (or can plausibly have). With Bioware they almost never do class-appropriate cut-scenes, at best they sometimes add a single animation as a finishing move or something, but largely the cinematic story-telling never acknowledges what your character can do. Compare that to the type of action cut-scene that you can find in TW3, both the main game and the expansions. Also, characters can address you more directly and refer to many things about you, rather than keeping conversations comfortably vague and vanilla so that they can contain every possible customization combo. These things add a TON of immersion for me. That's not to say that I dislike a game that allows customization, I play many CRPG's. Ideally with an AAA game I'd like the game to have customization AND reactivity, but realistically speaking I'd be surprised if that actually happens. (although, if someone is going to do it at this point, it would be CDPR probably) My thoughts exactly. I'm not against character customization and class selection, but that almost inevitably leads towards "keeping the story universal" so it works for all classes. Pick up Skyrim, 10 races and all of them are addressed the same, even though there should be clear biases against one or the other in certain occasions. Same with Dragon Age (taking out Origins), barely any moments in which being a mage or a warrior makes a difference. So I'd rather have a predefined character and npcs and the story react accordingly to that, instead of having the typical false sensation of choice. It's different in some games, but if CDPR is indeed going for a strongly narrative story, I personally prefer a predefined character.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2017 13:41:28 GMT
Same with Dragon Age (taking out Origins), barely any moments in which being a mage or a warrior makes a difference. Mage Hawke saves Cullen from a bunch of demons by blowing them up with magic. Cullen: Thanks for your help stranger. Hawke: You are welcome. Cullen: Damn those demons, and those mages too, amirite? Hawke: Game: You Play Adrian, the Sword-Wielding Macho Man who looks like this. He's, like, totally awesome! He has a HUGE sword! Big-boobed women swoon! I (the author of Adrian) totally dig him, oh, look, he is so cool and edgy!!! Me: And, tbh, it's easy enough to address this by giving a few more options. Games do not have to have 8 classes. Look at Spiders' games. Fun to play, but your basic overlay of special abilities is the same for everyone, and it works just fine, and that's what you attract attention to.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2017 13:56:22 GMT
Game: You Play Adrian, the Sword-Wielding Macho Man who looks like this. He's, like, totally awesome! He has a HUGE sword! Big-boobed women swoon! I (the author of Adrian) totally dig him, oh, look, he is so cool and edgy!!! Me: Whataboutism.
But yeah, you don't like The Witcher, I get that, you made your point quite a few times. (I'm not even going to get into the specifics of how unfair your description is to it, because that's not even the topic that we're discussing, and neither did I claim that TW3 formula is perfect, hence whataboutism)
Actually, I was thinking about Ezio... but the first reaction at seeing Alloy? Can I change her hair? he face? her name? And it is absolutely possible for the game to track what and who your player is and reference it correctly. Tyranny meticulously does it for a gazillion of things. Also, your example with Hawke is also a whataboutism, and was also a third or fourth restatement of your previous point that in the games with extensive customization, some texts might not work well for some protagonists (just might; the examples of such jarring content are not that common and normally easily reconciled with head canon). I can ALWAYS do something about that bit of a text as head-canon (Such as Hawke being blaze as usual: "Ah, those terrible evil mages, ha-ha!" and figure it out or, just, you know, move on. Sure, it can be annoying, I get it. But still, at the very least you CHOSE to be a mage in the first place. I can do NOTHING, nothing at all about the fixed character's appearance, name and gender. No amount of my imagination will make Assassin Creed 2 to be anyone's story but Ezio Auditore's. And, no amount of my wishing will even do the tiniest, the smallest thing we all can do IRL, like changing Geralt's hair color or hairstyle to personalize his appearance. You also fail to mention that there is a LOT of content for the specific protagonists in those games that no other protagonist will see, and how cool it is when it *is* reflected, and in some exceptional cases as much as 20+ hours of content that specific to that class (SWTOR).
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2017 14:09:59 GMT
Actually, I was thinking about Ezio... but the first reaction at seeing Alloy? Can I change her hair? he face? her name? And it is absolutely possible for the game to track what and who your player is and reference it correctly. Tyranny meticulously does it for a gazillion of things. Also, your example with Hawke is also a whataboutism, and was also a third or fourth restatement of your previous point. *sigh*
No It wasn't whataboutary, I simply reacted to what Chrome said with an example that validated his point. You on the other hand, didn't refute what I said, instead you chose to move to another point, a point which I never actually disputed that it's not ideal.
And yeah, I don't see any point in continuing this line of discussion.
You really want Cyberpunk to be something specific, I get that, and I certainly don't object to that, that said, I'll gladly take a "Witcher-style" game in that setting as well.
Note: Funnily enough, IIRC, I made a point in the Witcher thread about how it could have been better if we had access to more customization options. (that said, I acknowledged that I had quite a lot of fun with it as it is, especially since I had some interesting mods that changed some gameplay and control aspects)
Refuting: it is absolutely possible for the game to track what and who your player is and reference it correctly. Tyranny meticulously does it for a gazillion of things. some texts might not work well for some protagonists, just might; the examples of such jarring content are not that common and normally easily reconciled with head canon. I can ALWAYS do something about that bit of a text as head-canon (Such as Hawke being blaze as usual: "Ah, those terrible evil mages, ha-ha!") and figure it out or, just, you know, move on. Sure, it can be annoying, I get it. But still, at the very least you CHOSE to be a mage in the first place. And everything else is in your hands, and the games are trying to honor your choices and wishes, at least the Bio's ones. I can do NOTHING, nothing at all about the fixed character's appearance, name and gender. No amount of my imagination will make Assassin Creed 2 to be anyone's story but Ezio Auditore's. And, no amount of my wishing will even do the tiniest, the smallest thing we all can do IRL, like changing Geralt's hair color or hairstyle to personalize his appearance. Those games give not an inch to the player to express him or herself and place their own stamp on the game. You also fail to mention that there is a LOT of content for the specific protagonists in those games that no other protagonist will see, and how cool it is when it *is* reflected, and in some exceptional cases as much as 20+ hours of content that specific to that class (SWTOR).
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2017 14:36:29 GMT
Tyrrany is an isometric CRPG, and it is only partially voiced. Obviously it can have more reactivity than a triple-A game, because all it requires is a bit more text. It doesn't require voice acting (not necessarily anyway), nor does it require resources for expensive cut-scenes. It's simply a different method of story-telling, and with this method broad customization really has no downsides. Cinematic story-telling is a different beast. No, it is not. It is simply more expensive, and will be made less and less so with taking the human labor element out of the animations process eventually. The storytelling is storytelling. Each company does what it can afford. Spiders, for one, pull wonders on a limited budget showing that it is possible to have an artistically beautiful, impactful story delivery without sacrificing customization, player identity or having to make animations like a movie.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2017 0:54:00 GMT
No, it is not. It is simply more expensive, and will be made less and less so with taking the human labor element out of the animations process eventually. The storytelling is storytelling. Each company does what it can afford. Spiders, for one, pull wonders on a limited budget showing that it is possible to have an artistically beautiful, impactful story delivery without sacrificing customization, player identity or having to make animations like a movie. I guess we'll just have to disagree then.
I think that there's a fairly fundamental difference between the kind of story-telling that relies heavily on text and static art to convey itself and imbue the proper "feeling" of the world, and the kind of story that tries to go for a cinematic appeal.
The first one is more like a guide for the player's imagination, and often leaves blanks to be filled by it, while the second form tries to actually bring the story to life in reality via semi-realistic cinematic story-telling. The first one benefits heavily from the player actively engaging in role-play (in the more traditional sense), while the second allows you to sit back and experience the story through the eyes of your protagonist.
I certainly want my imagination engaged instead of watching a movie. Spiders does not exactly use stills; it is animated well, but not that uber realistic art style which I do not like anyway. It’s really beautiful and emotional.But, anyway, whatever. If CDPR not going to do custom lead, we’ll hear about it in time.
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Post by slimgrin727 on Nov 13, 2017 4:42:54 GMT
I don't want a blank slate for Cyberpunk. Something more along the lines of a Shepard. Not as fixed as Geralt but a semi-defined protag with different backgrounds maybe. Blank slate from them would be such a huge waste when they're so good with giving you a character that feels unique but still offers role playing. Imagine playing a CDPR game where the PC is as lifeless as your Skyrim character. God that would be awful.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 13, 2017 5:07:23 GMT
I don't want a blank slate for Cyberpunk. Something more along the lines of a Shepard. Not as fixed as Geralt but a semi-defined protag with different backgrounds maybe. Blank slate from them would be such a huge waste when they're so good with giving you a character that feels unique but still offers role playing. Imagine playing a CDPR game where the PC is as lifeless as your Skyrim character. God that would be awful. Shepard was a bit too predefined for me. I'm hoping for something like Inquisitor or maybe a voiced Warden. I do agree that they shouldn't be a complete blank slate. After all if they include classes each class involves a backstory and occupation so they can use that(though I would like if they did something like in Inquisition where you could have different feelings about your past) while the personality and actions after the start are up to us for roleplaying.
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Post by KaiserShep on Nov 13, 2017 5:44:59 GMT
So much for finding the right company that could actually pull off what Mike Pondsmith waited decades for for his Cyberpunk game. To think I actually was excited for a CDPR game. Hopefully these rumors are unfounded or they figure it out and they manage to prove me wrong. Well, if it means anything, we'll at least have plenty of time over the next decade or so until the game's release to come to terms with whatever it has to offer
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 13, 2017 6:00:04 GMT
So much for finding the right company that could actually pull off what Mike Pondsmith waited decades for for his Cyberpunk game. To think I actually was excited for a CDPR game. Hopefully these rumors are unfounded or they figure it out and they manage to prove me wrong. Well, if it means anything, we'll at least have plenty of time over the next decade or so until the game's release to come to terms with whatever it has to offer Well, if I recall the contract said it has to be out by mid-2019 at the latest or something like that. Though I suppose they may be able to extend it. I have to say part of me likes the poetry of the idea of Cyberpunk 2077 coming out in 2020.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2017 18:27:52 GMT
I don't want a blank slate for Cyberpunk. Something more along the lines of a Shepard. Not as fixed as Geralt but a semi-defined protag with different backgrounds maybe. Blank slate from them would be such a huge waste when they're so good with giving you a character that feels unique but still offers role playing. Imagine playing a CDPR game where the PC is as lifeless as your Skyrim character. God that would be awful. From the initial descriptions it seems that the Shepard analogy is fairly on point. Something like Sheprad or Hawke, or any one of the BioWARE's previous protagonists would be fine with me, as well as Ryder, or SWTOR class backstories leads that definitely gave the class a certain personality, and, perhaps, age, but there was a lot of wiggle room there & no fixed last names. I think I would prefer SWTOR's way overall, when the titles and honorifics were earned by the deeds of the character, and changed as you went along, not fixed from the start.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2017 18:29:19 GMT
Well, if it means anything, we'll at least have plenty of time over the next decade or so until the game's release to come to terms with whatever it has to offer Well, if I recall the contract said it has to be out by mid-2019 at the latest or something like that. Though I suppose they may be able to extend it. I have to say part of me likes the poetry of the idea of Cyberpunk 2077 coming out in 2020. I thought 2019 was just the grant money deadline for specifically the MP component. At any rate, contracts can be extended, that's not set in stone.
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Post by Gandalf the Fabulous on Nov 13, 2017 21:59:04 GMT
I don't want a blank slate for Cyberpunk. Something more along the lines of a Shepard. Not as fixed as Geralt but a semi-defined protag with different backgrounds maybe. Blank slate from them would be such a huge waste when they're so good with giving you a character that feels unique but still offers role playing. Imagine playing a CDPR game where the PC is as lifeless as your Skyrim character. God that would be awful. Shepard was a bit too predefined for me. I'm hoping for something like Inquisitor or maybe a voiced Warden. I do agree that they shouldn't be a complete blank slate. After all if they include classes each class involves a backstory and occupation so they can use that(though I would like if they did something like in Inquisition where you could have different feelings about your past) while the personality and actions after the start are up to us for roleplaying. I know this isn't the most popular opinion but I would rather no backstory unless it is absolutely vital to the plot or the character has amnesia like the Nameless One. Predefined backstories for protagonist characters really don't don't really do much for me and for the most part only really serve to take me out of the game especially if they imply certain traits or relationships with certain characters, as a player it is very hard to form any sort of emotional attachment and care when the character that has only had 5 minutes of screen time gets killed off in the opening act even if we are told that they are supposed to be a blood relative of our protagonist, let me decide who may character is and which relationships are important. When deciding who the protagonist should be for an RPG I feel it is best to have a character that mirrors the player's state of mind, backstory should be fairly vague and only really contain details that are vital to the plot and maybe explain how your character got into the situation they find themselves in and maybe explain why they don't know much about the word or region they currently find themselves in, an RPG should be a journey of discovery that the player and the character embark on together, it is why the amnesia angle in Planescape: Torment works so well, even though the Nameless One has a rather storied history his past is unknown both to him and the player meaning they are both somewhat in the same state of mind and are embarking on the journey of discovery together, revelations come to the Nameless One at the same time they do to the Player and it is never implied how you should feel about the information you uncover or the characters you meet along the way, it allows a deeper connection to the story as a whole and the character you are playing as your thoughts are his thoughts and you step into the shoes and become the Nameless One instead of watching somebody else's character get melancholy over something that you may not really care about. Implying that the player character should have some sort of knowledge that player does not have or trying to imply that the player character has some sort of emotional tie to something or someone in the world when the player themselves don't only really serves as a disconnect between the player and the character they are playing and mostly only serves to take me out of the game.
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Post by Pounce de León on Nov 14, 2017 9:59:11 GMT
Shepard was a bit too predefined for me. I'm hoping for something like Inquisitor or maybe a voiced Warden. I do agree that they shouldn't be a complete blank slate. After all if they include classes each class involves a backstory and occupation so they can use that(though I would like if they did something like in Inquisition where you could have different feelings about your past) while the personality and actions after the start are up to us for roleplaying. I know this isn't the most popular opinion but I would rather no backstory unless it is absolutely vital to the plot or the character has amnesia like the Nameless One. Predefined backstories for protagonist characters really don't don't really do much for me and for the most part only really serve to take me out of the game especially if they imply certain traits or relationships with certain characters, as a player it is very hard to form any sort of emotional attachment and care when the character that has only had 5 minutes of screen time gets killed off in the opening act even if we are told that they are supposed to be a blood relative of our protagonist, let me decide who may character is and which relationships are important. When deciding who the protagonist should be for an RPG I feel it is best to have a character that mirrors the player's state of mind, backstory should be fairly vague and only really contain details that are vital to the plot and maybe explain how your character got into the situation they find themselves in and maybe explain why they don't know much about the word or region they currently find themselves in, an RPG should be a journey of discovery that the player and the character embark on together, it is why the amnesia angle in Planescape: Torment works so well, even though the Nameless One has a rather storied history his past is unknown both to him and the player meaning they are both somewhat in the same state of mind and are embarking on the journey of discovery together, revelations come to the Nameless One at the same time they do to the Player and it is never implied how you should feel about the information you uncover or the characters you meet along the way, it allows a deeper connection to the story as a whole and the character you are playing as your thoughts are his thoughts and you step into the shoes and become the Nameless One instead of watching somebody else's character get melancholy over something that you may not really care about. Implying that the player character should have some sort of knowledge that player does not have or trying to imply that the player character has some sort of emotional tie to something or someone in the world when the player themselves don't only really serves as a disconnect between the player and the character they are playing and mostly only serves to take me out of the game. I don't think I mind much, but I feel I prefer framework of backgrounds rather than reliving the childhood of characters. I can't, however, remember any player character that was minutely detailed in background.
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Post by Gandalf the Fabulous on Nov 14, 2017 22:06:47 GMT
It isn't about having to re live every childhood memory of the protagonist (well in the case of Planescape: Torment it is about discovering lost memories) but rather leaving it blank for the player to decide who their character is and what is important to them, it is about not assuming the character has knowledge or relationships that are irrelevant or not known to the player. I have no idea why people focus so much on the backstory of the protagonist when it should be the things that they actually do in game that define them and not the events that happen before the game even begins.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2017 22:57:35 GMT
It isn't about having to re live every childhood memory of the protagonist (well in the case of Planescape: Torment it is about discovering lost memories) but rather leaving it blank for the player to decide who their character is and what is important to them, it is about not assuming the character has knowledge or relationships that are irrelevant or not known to the player. I have no idea why people focus so much on the backstory of the protagonist when it should be the things that they actually do in game that define them and not the events that happen before the game even begins. You do like the Witcher, a character with multiple novels length of backstory, so you can probably answer your own question.
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