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Post by Iddy on Jun 2, 2017 15:03:27 GMT
Okay, I got it. So: if I gambling with something which is destroyed later, then I was evil. If I destroyed something for fun, perhaps I was good, but not evil, because we can not say it's a bad thing destroying something for fun. Yes, perhaps people enjoyed too. You're a very funny guy. You didn't even understood what I said,so carry on. You are unable to discern what is objective from what is subjective,motivations are subjective,the effects on reality are never subjective and only from them good and evil can be objectively determined.Is not the motivation that makes a murdering bad or good, is it's effect on the one being killed. Or the number of people who were killed by the one you've spared.
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Post by Prince on Jun 2, 2017 21:43:22 GMT
You didn't even understood what I said,so carry on. You are unable to discern what is objective from what is subjective,motivations are subjective,the effects on reality are never subjective and only from them good and evil can be objectively determined.Is not the motivation that makes a murdering bad or good, is it's effect on the one being killed. Or the number of people who were killed by the one you've spared. And those who could be in the future.Precisely way I also have an hard time choosing to spare the bandits near Lothering. It's true that the future cannot be predicted,but with these kind of people you may never know if because of that act you've doomed someone else in the future(maybe even yourself if they will return for revenge).Loghain is the only one that you can literally take in custody,that's why he is more easy to spare compared to all these situations.
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Post by Catilina on Jun 2, 2017 22:16:06 GMT
Or the number of people who were killed by the one you've spared. And those who could be in the future.Precisely way I also have an hard time choosing to spare the bandits near Lothering. It's true that the future cannot be predicted,but with these kind of people you may never know if because of that act you've doomed someone else in the future(maybe even yourself if they will return for revenge).Loghain is the only one that you can literally take in custody,that's why he is more easy to spare compared to all these situations. Your thinking is sick.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jun 3, 2017 1:50:41 GMT
And those who could be in the future.Precisely way I also have an hard time choosing to spare the bandits near Lothering. It's true that the future cannot be predicted,but with these kind of people you may never know if because of that act you've doomed someone else in the future(maybe even yourself if they will return for revenge).Loghain is the only one that you can literally take in custody,that's why he is more easy to spare compared to all these situations. Your thinking is sick. He's just being practical. I say this as someone who sometimes does think Prince's thinking is sick. Though maybe I should point out that with Loghain, you're taking him into the camp you sleep in. If the blood mage wants revenge, she'll have to survive the Circle and then come find you. If Loghain wants revenge, Loghain's already found you. Good thing he turns out not to.
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Post by Catilina on Jun 3, 2017 2:00:38 GMT
He's just being practical. I say this as someone who sometimes does think Prince's thinking is sick. Though maybe I should point out that with Loghain, you're taking him into the camp you sleep in. If the blood mage wants revenge, she'll have to survive the Circle and then come find you. If Loghain wants revenge, Loghain's already found you. Good thing he turns out not to. Just as Zevran, no more threat. I don't have problem become practical, nor even cruel, if there is a reason. And you know, I didn't say, that bad decision to kill this woman, or spare Loghain (or execute him), and no one of these is evil, but: can be evil. I think, the motivation is matter. I wrote generally about his thinking.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jun 3, 2017 2:01:54 GMT
He's just being practical. I say this as someone who sometimes does think Prince's thinking is sick. Though maybe I should point out that with Loghain, you're taking him into the camp you sleep in. If the blood mage wants revenge, she'll have to survive the Circle and then come find you. If Loghain wants revenge, Loghain's already found you. Good thing he turns out not to. Just as Zevran, no more threat. I don't have problem become practical, not cruel, if there is a reason. And you know, I didn't say, that bad decision to kill this woman, or spare Loghain (or execute him), and no one is evil, but: can be evil. I think, the motivation is matter. I wrote generally about his thinking. Well, while I always recruit Zevran, I'll admit my PCs aren't being particularly wise there either.
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Post by Prince on Jun 3, 2017 10:57:35 GMT
And those who could be in the future.Precisely way I also have an hard time choosing to spare the bandits near Lothering. It's true that the future cannot be predicted,but with these kind of people you may never know if because of that act you've doomed someone else in the future(maybe even yourself if they will return for revenge).Loghain is the only one that you can literally take in custody,that's why he is more easy to spare compared to all these situations. Your thinking is sick. Lol because you say so?
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Post by oyabun on Jun 3, 2017 11:03:36 GMT
He's just being practical. I say this as someone who sometimes does think Prince's thinking is sick. Though maybe I should point out that with Loghain, you're taking him into the camp you sleep in. If the blood mage wants revenge, she'll have to survive the Circle and then come find you. If Loghain wants revenge, Loghain's already found you. Good thing he turns out not to. I don't see what's sick about those reasonings.In the first place sparing a person that has committed a crime without any kind of supervision is insane and in fact there isn't a country in the world that works like that(they all at least put them in jail for a while or for forever). Loghain can't gain any revenge,you are wrong on that account,it doesn't matter that he is in the same place as you because his equipment is controlled by the player and second in the camp the Warden is guarded by almost an entire troops of people,it would be insane for Loghain to try unless he wants to die first. And in the almost ipossible scenario(which in fact doesn't exist) of his success at murdering the PC the rest of the Warden's army or the Archdemons and the blight will kill him as well. So pretty much a move that makes no sense for him to do or than him want to purposely suicide himself without even acheving his ma in goal all among which was the salvation of the country.
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Post by akiza on Jun 3, 2017 11:09:27 GMT
What's the point for Loghain to kill someone who spared him during the blight?Not only he lacks the power to do that,but why he should even want to do that before the AD is killed? Does he want to be killed by the blight for no reason?
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jun 3, 2017 11:14:13 GMT
He's just being practical. I say this as someone who sometimes does think Prince's thinking is sick. Though maybe I should point out that with Loghain, you're taking him into the camp you sleep in. If the blood mage wants revenge, she'll have to survive the Circle and then come find you. If Loghain wants revenge, Loghain's already found you. Good thing he turns out not to. I don't see what's sick about those reasonings.Sparing a person that has committed a crime without any kind of supervision is insane and in fact there isn't a country in the world that works like that(they out them in jail for a while). Loghain can't gain any revenge,you are wrong on that account,first his equipment is controlled by the player and second in the camp the Warden is guarded by almost an entire troops of people,it would be insane for Loghain to try unless he wants to die first. Not this, specifically. I was joking about the fact that somehow I always find myself disagreeing with him whenever we're in the same thread. (Except for now.) As for Loghain being unable to get revenge, this reasoning depends on him not being able to hide a knife, or bite the Warden's throat out or something. And it also depends on Loghain caring about his own life, which I think we have reason to believe he no longer does by the time he's beaten. (Even if his apathy about his own life doesn't lead him to do this.) What's the point for Loghain to kill someone who spared him during the blight?Not only he lacks the power to do that,but why he should even want to do that before the AD is killed? Does he want to be killed by the blight for no reason? Sheer hatred and resentment? He did kinda go from being the regent to being a conscript in one fell swoop, primarily due to the Warden's efforts, and while Loghain doesn't seem to harbor a grudge about that it (judging by content you don't get to see until after you decide to spare him) seems like something someone might hold a grudge over. As for the "killed by the Blight for no reason" thing, again: you're assuming Loghain still cares about his own life.
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Post by Catilina on Jun 3, 2017 11:15:32 GMT
He's just being practical. I say this as someone who sometimes does think Prince's thinking is sick. Though maybe I should point out that with Loghain, you're taking him into the camp you sleep in. If the blood mage wants revenge, she'll have to survive the Circle and then come find you. If Loghain wants revenge, Loghain's already found you. Good thing he turns out not to. I don't see what's sick about those reasonings.Sparing a person that has committed a crime without any kind of supervision is insane and in fact there isn't a country in the world that works like that(they out them in jail for a while). Loghain can't gain any revenge,you are wrong on that account,first his equipment is controlled by the player and second in the camp the Warden is guarded by almost an entire troops of people,it would be insane for Loghain to try unless he wants to die first. What she did, not a serious crime in every viewpoint. And the mercy works everywhere. And: the Warden isn't a judge. (Oh, that poor Loghain, he just wants to die!) You only see ONE viewpoint, what is valid, but there are others, which also valid.
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Post by Prince on Jun 3, 2017 11:32:27 GMT
And I was the one making the convoluted reasonings Lol... So you are basically saying that Loghain is eager to suicide himself out of resentment,even if he would be well aware that it will cost pretty much not only his own life but also the failure of what he wanted to accomplish all along during the whole game? Nevermind that he can be forced to literally walk disarmed and is watched by thousands of eyes that see every single of his moves... Ya i know that 100% certanty about the future cannot be achieved but the scenario you are proposing is soo far fetched that's pretty difficult to justify wihtout an even greater paranoia of Loghain himself.
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Post by oyabun on Jun 3, 2017 11:49:48 GMT
I don't see what's sick about those reasonings.Sparing a person that has committed a crime without any kind of supervision is insane and in fact there isn't a country in the world that works like that(they out them in jail for a while). Loghain can't gain any revenge,you are wrong on that account,first his equipment is controlled by the player and second in the camp the Warden is guarded by almost an entire troops of people,it would be insane for Loghain to try unless he wants to die first. What she did, not a serious crime in every viewpoint. And the mercy works everywhere. And: the Warden isn't a judge. (Oh, that poor Loghain, he just wants to die!) You only see ONE viewpoint, what is valid, but there are others, which also valid. That's beside the viewpoints,I'm talking about facts which cannot be boiled down to a matter of relativism. The woman is most likely guilty of murdering and for sure she is guilty at attempt at murdering,those are serious crimes in almost every corners of the world IRL,if you don't want to see that as serious crimes then so be it. And whether you want to like it or not,unlike her Loghain doesn't have magic,so Loghain to be dangerous needs his physical weapons which can be removed from his hands. With this woman not only you have to let her go (thus you have no control whatsoever on her)but she has magic that can be used against you,not regular magic but mind control magic,so she can if she desire make you into a puppet of hers for life.Don't forget about the demon summoning ability....thse are all weapons that Loghain doesn't have.
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Post by oyabun on Jun 3, 2017 11:59:06 GMT
And I was the one making the convoluted reasonings Lol... So you are basically saying that Loghain is eager to suicide himself out of resentment,even if he would be well aware that it will cost pretty much not only his own life but also the failure of what he wanted to accomplish all along during the whole game? Nevermind that he can be forced to literally walk disarmed and is watched by thousands of eyes that see every single of his moves... Ya i know that 100% certanty about the future cannot be achieved but the scenario you are proposing is soo far fetched that's pretty difficult to justify wihtout an even greater paranoia of Loghain himself. Beside all that,why he would even want to kill someone that helped him for free in the first place?I mean why he should have resentment for that? I guess he could feel resentment but... that would be a behaviour by far more difficult to justify than him being grateful for not have been killed.
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Post by Catilina on Jun 3, 2017 12:02:02 GMT
What she did, not a serious crime in every viewpoint. And the mercy works everywhere. And: the Warden isn't a judge. (Oh, that poor Loghain, he just wants to die!) You only see ONE viewpoint, what is valid, but there are others, which also valid. That's beside the viewpoints,I'm talking about facts which cannot be boiled down to a matter of relativism. The woman is most likely guilty of murdering and for sure she is guilty at attempt at murdering,those are serious crimes in almost every corners of the world IRL,if you don't want to see that as serious crimes then so be it. And whether you want to like it or not,unlike her Loghain doesn't have magic,so Loghain to be dangerous needs his physical weapons which can be removed from his hands. With this woman not only you have to let her go (thus you have no control whatsoever on her)but she has magic that can be used against you,not regular magic but mind control magic,so she can if she desire make you into a puppet of hers for life.Don't forget about the demon summoning ability,all weapons that Loghain doesn't have. 1. This woman is a captive, 2. and as you said: only MOST LIKELY GUILTY, not sure guilty. Yes, she can be dangerous, as many others. I know, that you a big fan of the idea of the execution for prevention. Very healthy standpoint.
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Post by oyabun on Jun 3, 2017 12:12:17 GMT
That's beside the viewpoints,I'm talking about facts which cannot be boiled down to a matter of relativism. The woman is most likely guilty of murdering and for sure she is guilty at attempt at murdering,those are serious crimes in almost every corners of the world IRL,if you don't want to see that as serious crimes then so be it. And whether you want to like it or not,unlike her Loghain doesn't have magic,so Loghain to be dangerous needs his physical weapons which can be removed from his hands. With this woman not only you have to let her go (thus you have no control whatsoever on her)but she has magic that can be used against you,not regular magic but mind control magic,so she can if she desire make you into a puppet of hers for life.Don't forget about the demon summoning ability,all weapons that Loghain doesn't have. 1. This woman is a captive, 2. and as you said: only MOST LIKELY GUILTY, not sure guilty. Yes, she can be dangerous, as many others. I know, that you a big fan of the idea of the execution for prevention. Very healthy standpoint. -What do you mean she was a captive? She isn't a captive,the captives are the mages which were taken as hostages which she wasn't part of. -She isn't most likely guilty,she is literally guilty at attempt at murdering, at murdering you since is what she was doing before being defeated. -Lastly what do you want to imply with your last sentence? I clearly stated that the game does not offer the option to recruit her(to supervise her in some way however diffcult it may be with a mind control mage) not to imprison her,it only gives two extremes.This is a person with mind control powers and demon summoning powers.you are free to not care about her walking around unsupervisioned with that kind of powers,that doesn't help an healty society either.
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Post by Catilina on Jun 3, 2017 12:19:13 GMT
1. This woman is a captive, 2. and as you said: only MOST LIKELY GUILTY, not sure guilty. Yes, she can be dangerous, as many others. I know, that you a big fan of the idea of the execution for prevention. Very healthy standpoint. -What do you mean she was a captive? She isn't a captive,the captives are the mages which were taken as hostages which she wasn't part of. -She isn't most likely guilty,she is literally guilty at attempt at murdering, at murdering you since is what she was doing before being defeated. -Lastly what do you want to imply with your last sentence? I clearly stated that the game does not offer the option to recruit her(to supervise her in some way however diffcult it may be with a mind control mage) not to imprison her,it only gives two extremes. Mages are captives, the Circles are prisons for innocents. Of course, the captives uses illegal* means for freedom and for destroying the wrong system. This very acceptable. There's nothing wrong with the Warden let her go. ____ *the system's wrong, the legality's not a value.
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Jun 3, 2017 12:28:29 GMT
As for Loghain being unable to get revenge, this reasoning depends on him not being able to hide a knife, or bite the Warden's throat out or something. Killing the warden via bites like a vampire? I know Loghain is paranoid but I don't think he is crazy like that. Where he gets a knife if he doesn't have allies in the camp and outside of it to take one?Also all those efforts in the attempt to kill a benefactor..... by risking his own life.....and by increasing the chances fo Ferelden to be destroyed.....why he would even want that?It's so counterproductive that it doesn't makes much sense for him to do that. Mages are captives, the Circles are prisons for innocents. Of course, the captives uses illegal means for freedom and for destroying the wrong system. This very acceptable. There's nothing wrong with the Warden let her go. Ya,ya we know same old story. In this situation the captives are the mages which were taken as hostages,not those blood mages of the faction of Uldred. This aren't perspectives this is just about using terms appropriately.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2017 18:58:21 GMT
The goodness of your intentions doesn't matter. If you kill bunch of innocents to achieve them you are a terrorist
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Post by Catilina on Jun 3, 2017 19:11:45 GMT
The goodness of your intentions doesn't matter. If you kill bunch of innocents to achieve them you are a terrorist This is not that simple. But you know my opinion. Not mentioned, that the most country is terrorist then, even which forced to defend their own people, because if would be surrender, the people could live in peace. I suppose, the quality of this peace does not matter at all. The main reason is the peace, even in slavery. So: if the counrtyes make war, or try to defend themselves, their army kill innocents (almost every soldier is innocent). So?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2017 19:22:13 GMT
The goodness of your intentions doesn't matter. If you kill bunch of innocents to achieve them you are a terrorist This is not that simple. But you know my opinion. Not mentioned, that the most country is terrorist then, even which forced to defend their own people, because if would be surrender, the people could live in peace. I suppose, the quality of this peace does not matter at all. The main reason is the peace, even in slavery. So: if the counrtyes make war, or try to defend themselves, their army kill innocents (almost every soldier is innocent). So? Killing soldiers is not the same as killing children and civilians. I understand fighting for your freedoom it's natural but you don't go killing children and civilians in doing so. For example, I really like Loghain but his desicions were horrific and stupid (except for fleeing ostagar that was the most sensible thing to do)
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Post by Catilina on Jun 3, 2017 19:26:54 GMT
This is not that simple. But you know my opinion. Not mentioned, that the most country is terrorist then, even which forced to defend their own people, because if would be surrender, the people could live in peace. I suppose, the quality of this peace does not matter at all. The main reason is the peace, even in slavery. So: if the counrtyes make war, or try to defend themselves, their army kill innocents (almost every soldier is innocent). So? Killing soldiers is not the same as killing children and civilians. I understand fighting for your freedoom it's natural but you don't go killing children and civilians in doing so. For example, I really like Loghain but his desicions were horrific and stupid (except for fleeing ostagar that was the most sensible thing to do) In a war, civilians and children die too. AND: civilian (young, almost child "men") forced to be soldier... Thus, the total surrender is the only acceptable option, because the fight jeopardizes people?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2017 19:29:50 GMT
Killing soldiers is not the same as killing children and civilians. I understand fighting for your freedoom it's natural but you don't go killing children and civilians in doing so. For example, I really like Loghain but his desicions were horrific and stupid (except for fleeing ostagar that was the most sensible thing to do) In a war, civilians and children die too. AND: civilian (young, almost child "men") forced to be soldier... It's not a war though it's just an act of a madman. To quote Morrigan:"apparently everyone thinks a Blight is the perfect time to start killing each other" your freedoom comes second while facing a true evil
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Post by Catilina on Jun 3, 2017 19:33:48 GMT
In a war, civilians and children die too. AND: civilian (young, almost child "men") forced to be soldier... It's not a war though it's just an act of a madman. To quote Morrigan:"apparently everyone thinks a Blight is the perfect time to start killing each other" your freedoom comes second while facing a true evil I just said, that not everything so easy. Ofc, Loghain abused his power, and sold his men and jeopardizing everyone in Thedas with consider Wardens enemy, and prevent their work. And his questionable "tactical retreat" probably was a betrayal...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2017 19:40:40 GMT
It's not a war though it's just an act of a madman. To quote Morrigan:"apparently everyone thinks a Blight is the perfect time to start killing each other" your freedoom comes second while facing a true evil I just said, that not everything so easy. Ofc, Loghain abused his power, and sold his men and jeopardizing everyone in Thedas with consider Wardens enemy, and prevent their work. And his questionable "tactical retreat" probably was a betrayal... Dude come on it's that easy, if whole world is fighting some mosterous creatures from underground and are infinite in number you don't make deals with demons and kill children in doing so. As for Loghain, rest of the army and Wardens would've been dead too if he didn't retreat
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