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Post by The_Smiling_Bandit on May 26, 2017 12:18:07 GMT
But that violence was illegal... (wait for it)... until Anders set off his bomb. I didn't speak about Meredith's Annulment (at least not only about the Annulment). The violence happened already for centuries. Oh, I see: the violence behind the closed doors isn't violence, because doesn't hurt the "civilians"... And what? This would be ILLEGAL? As I experienced neither Meredith, not Elthina was bothered by illegal things... Meredith (and Elthina) was law-breaker. So what you’re saying is that any past offense is cause for present retribution?
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Post by Catilina on May 26, 2017 12:20:14 GMT
I didn't speak about Meredith's Annulment (at least not only about the Annulment). The violence happened already for centuries. Oh, I see: the violence behind the closed doors isn't violence, because doesn't hurt the "civilians"... And what? This would be ILLEGAL? As I experienced neither Meredith, not Elthina was bothered by illegal things... Meredith (and Elthina) was law-breaker. So what you’re saying is that any past offense is cause for present retribution? Past? Rather continuous. (Perhaps, I wasn't clear, because of my weak English, then sorry for the misunderstanding.) But yes: I can say, the continuous violence can cause a rebellion. This isn't retribution...
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2017 14:11:47 GMT
I believe people's condemnation of the destruction of the Chantry temple was that it caused the death of kind hearted Elthina. But what if the ones inside the building were only priests and Andrastian leaders who adamantly oppose mage freedom? Would you not consider it a righteous blow against his oppressors? Elthina's not kind-hearted, she has sarcastric humour (this is the only thing what I like in her), and strongly interest in the eternity instead real people of Kirkwall.At first, of course, she seems a decent, wise woman, but the more I listen her circumlocution of "I don't like Meredit's methods, but both side has good and wrong points", the more I want to punch due to helpless anger (Do not you see, old bitch, what's happening? Or do you think that's right?) I know is not fair do punch a woman, I guess that's the reason what why Anders blew up her instead... Seriously: the Grand Cleric was the main target, and the building, which was a symbol of institutionalized violence. But it may not have happened, if Elthina not as "wise" "neutral" old woman, but a real leader. (What Anders did, was not crime, what the Chantry did for centuries was crime – my opinion.) I am with Catilina on the subject that Ethina and the Chantry are Anders' sole targets, and on the motivation of the propaganda act. It is quite hard to discuss this subject because folks understandably tend to view it through the prism of modern events, while Anders' actions are that of the ninteenth' century morality and ideology. He is not a twentieth century terrorist attempting to inflict harm on the civilian population of the opposing ideology. He does not live in the world where such a warfare is the only effective method of waging the war against nations that are wast lying superior in terms of conventional arm forces, he has not witnessed truly annihilative warfare of the twentieth century. All he knows, like a ninteenth century man, are small-scale conflicts. You guys probably do not have the benefit of actually reading the ninteenth century philosophy works, and I am only familiar with it to a very limited degree, but I do certainly have it drilled into me that a revolution is impossible without creating a revolutionary situation. The revolutionary situation is created when the oppressed class no longer wants to live with the status quo, and the oppressors can no longer maintain it. Anders believes that the Templars can no longer maintain the order, at least locally, after seeing the success of a limited Qunari force in Kirkwall. However, what Ethina does and what the Chantry represents, is the pacifying opiate to keep the oppressed class wanting to live with what they have. Removing just Meredith, in hopes of putting someone more fair in charge of Templars and, say, a Mage-liking Hawke (or some other nice guy) as a Vicecount, is another expression of the ninteenth century revolutionary approach. While it is seemingly more humane, even if successful, it does not guarantee that the new leader will enact the reforms desired by the oppressed and gives them voice/representation. In fact, it may actually lead to reactionary backlash. Anders wants a broader change, an actual restructure of the society to guarantee freedoms to his own class. Revolution is the only way to achieve it. Hence, he correctly identifies the obstacle, and eliminates it. His actions are neither excessive, nor has a goal of harming the bystanders. He destroys a powerful symbol in addition to Ethina. He acts completely with the code of a revolutionary agitator, rather than a terrorist. He commits a classic ninteenth century Act of propaganda by the deed fermenting the revolution. The fact that it fizzes out in DA:I, and Varric is reinstated as a head of state in Kirkwall and that the Inquisitor is instrumental in restoring the circles is unfortunate, but Anders revolutionary ideas will live on, and will likely be used, reused and intergrated in the social fabric of the affected region. But, the game steered us away from the mages for the time being, bringing the Elven question to the forefront. We are yet to see how Solas will adapt to the political realities, and if mages are going to form an alliance with him.
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Post by Sah291 on May 26, 2017 15:12:24 GMT
The fact that it fizzes out in DA:I, and Varric is reinstated as a head of state in Kirkwall and that the Inquisitor is instrumental in restoring the circles is unfortunate, but Anders revolutionary ideas will live on, and will likely be used, reused and intergrated in the social fabric of the affected region. But, the game steered us away from the mages for the time being, bringing the Elven question to the forefront. We are yet to see how Solas will adapt to the political realities, and if mages are going to form an alliance with him. Yeah, I think we'll be seeing more about mages with the elven story lines anyhow, since we now know the cause of the rebellion and civil war that caused the downfall of their empire had a lot to do with issues of slavery and magic. This appears to have been the original purpose of the Veil, in Fen'Harel's war against the immortal mage kings (Evanuris). Which he now apparently regrets, but this raises the whole "problem of magic" and potential rise of god-emperors again if he succeeds. So I expect that to be a major theme.
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2017 15:23:31 GMT
Slaves in real life do not have magical powers. Mages in DA should've had their voting for independence without the destruction of chantry so they can fight their war. Anders kind of forced them into war Voting? (Especially in Kirkwall..) And a Facebook campaign, yes. I said. Fiona tried... failed. No matter, they have magical power or not: the system was cruel, unjust AND even dangerous. Mages voted to fight at the end of Asunder. So it is how it was supposed to happen
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Post by Catilina on May 26, 2017 16:21:00 GMT
Voting? (Especially in Kirkwall..) And a Facebook campaign, yes. I said. Fiona tried... failed. No matter, they have magical power or not: the system was cruel, unjust AND even dangerous. Mages voted to fight at the end of Asunder. So it is how it was supposed to happen So: Anders was right according the Asunder too.
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2017 16:27:50 GMT
If he had targeted Meredith or the Templars then perhaps you could make a case for being a righteous blow, but even then that's on shaky ground when so many Templars oppose what's happening to the mages. However if the Chantry was full of priests and Andrastian leaders who opposed mage freedom as the OP said, it's still a crime in my mind as they were not the ones harming the mages in Kirkwall. They're just parroting the teachings they themselves have learnt whilst getting on with their duties.
The only way I'd say it was a glorious rebellion would be if there happened to be a meeting in the Chantry at the time of the explosion, of all the folks complicit in harming mages in Kirkwall. If all the staff were told to leave and the bad guys sat there twirling their moustaches and plotting their cruel acts against the tranquil and mages of the Gallows. And in that case I'd be fine with it.
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2017 16:29:32 GMT
Mages voted to fight at the end of Asunder. So it is how it was supposed to happen So: Anders was right according the Asunder too. He was right about mage freedoom, I question his methods not ideas
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Post by Catilina on May 26, 2017 16:36:51 GMT
If he had targeted Meredith or the Templars then perhaps you could make a case for being a righteous blow, but even then that's on shaky ground when so many Templars oppose what's happening to the mages. However if the Chantry was full of priests and Andrastian leaders who opposed mage freedom as the OP said, it's still a crime in my mind as they were not the ones harming the mages in Kirkwall. They're just parroting the teachings they themselves have learnt whilst getting on with their duties. The only way I'd say it was a glorious rebellion would be if there happened to be a meeting in the Chantry at the time of the explosion, of all the folks complicit in harming mages in Kirkwall. If all the staff were told to leave and the bad guys sat there twirling their moustaches and plotting their cruel acts against the tranquil and mages of the Gallows. And in that case I'd be fine with it. So, this was a lesser glorious, more bloody rebellion. But still righteous. The target wasn't Meredith directly. The target was Elthina, who was the Templars' and Meredith's superior, not some innocent pious priestess. She was a religious leader, who was idiot or malicious toward the mages. Her idiocity/malice (or both) made possible Meredith's law-breaking.
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2017 16:53:52 GMT
She was a religious leader, who was idiot or malicious toward the mages. Her idiocity/malice (or both) made possible Meredith's law-breaking. A malicious idiot? Not to me. She was a person in authority who was stuck in the middle trying to maintain the peace. She feared for the ppl of Kirkwall and their safety was her primary goal.
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Post by Catilina on May 26, 2017 17:02:12 GMT
She was a religious leader, who was idiot or malicious toward the mages. Her idiocity/malice (or both) made possible Meredith's law-breaking. A malicious idiot? Not to me. She was a person in authority who was stuck in the middle trying to maintain the peace. She feared for the ppl of Kirkwall and their safety was her primary goal. No. If the safety would been her goal, then she would try to replace/stop Meredith... She concerned about the eternity, not about the people of Kirkwall. Elthina was neither wise, nor neutral and benevolent. How can she be neutral, when Meredith was law-breaker, and she know about it?
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Post by Lazarillo on May 26, 2017 17:44:46 GMT
I thought this topic was going to be about how in Awakening, he thought the Libertarian College were a bunch of nuts and that breaking away from the Chantry was a horrible idea. I am with Catilina on the subject that Ethina and the Chantry are Anders' sole targets, and on the motivation of the propaganda act. It is quite hard to discuss this subject because folks understandably tend to view it through the prism of modern events, while Anders' actions are that of the ninteenth' century morality and ideology. He is not a twentieth century terrorist attempting to inflict harm on the civilian population of the opposing ideology. He does not live in the world where such a warfare is the only effective method of waging the war against nations that are wast lying superior in terms of conventional arm forces, he has not witnessed truly annihilative warfare of the twentieth century. All he knows, like a ninteenth century man, are small-scale conflicts. Except Justice states that it's not just about Elthina. He knows that his actions are going to cause Meredith to annul the Circle, and he's sacrificing their lives indirectly to create a show of Templar aggression that will motivate other Circles to rise up. According to him, every Mage that isn't killing Templars is a guilty accomplice to Mage oppression.
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Post by Catilina on May 26, 2017 17:55:08 GMT
I thought this topic was going to be about how in Awakening, he thought the Libertarian College were a bunch of nuts and that breaking away from the Chantry was a horrible idea. I am with Catilina on the subject that Ethina and the Chantry are Anders' sole targets, and on the motivation of the propaganda act. It is quite hard to discuss this subject because folks understandably tend to view it through the prism of modern events, while Anders' actions are that of the ninteenth' century morality and ideology. He is not a twentieth century terrorist attempting to inflict harm on the civilian population of the opposing ideology. He does not live in the world where such a warfare is the only effective method of waging the war against nations that are wast lying superior in terms of conventional arm forces, he has not witnessed truly annihilative warfare of the twentieth century. All he knows, like a ninteenth century man, are small-scale conflicts. Except Justice states that it's not just about Elthina. He knows that his actions are going to cause Meredith to annul the Circle, and he's sacrificing their lives indirectly to create a show of Templar aggression that will motivate other Circles to rise up. According to him, every Mage that isn't killing Templars is a guilty accomplice to Mage oppression. So: Anders in Awakening supported the Chantry's Circle system? I don't think so... His reason to offer his body to Justice was (beside to save his life), that Justice offered him a help to free the mages. What EXACTLY said Justice? And yes, what you said probably were in his plan/strategy. This was a start of the rebellion, not some mage-savior action. He gave a chance to the mages to rebel, and fight for their own life and freedom, not just sit on their ass and wait for their fate. Never forget: NOT he sent request for the annulment, and not he wanted the annulment. He doesn't responsible for Meredith. He only responsibile for what HE did.
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Post by Sah291 on May 26, 2017 19:59:17 GMT
Except Justice states that it's not just about Elthina. He knows that his actions are going to cause Meredith to annul the Circle, and he's sacrificing their lives indirectly to create a show of Templar aggression that will motivate other Circles to rise up. According to him, every Mage that isn't killing Templars is a guilty accomplice to Mage oppression. I'd say he expected the Circles would use it as a pretext to defend themselves, as open rebellion was then justifiably self defense. He probably also expects Hawke would defend them as well--Hawke is either a mage or has a mage sibling in there. What Varric says in the end, if Hawke sided with mages, was the battle showed the Templars could be defied and many lived to tell about it. If Hawke sides with the Templars and helps slaughter them all, then that showed how ruthless they could be. So the end result was still the same. Either Hawke openly defends the mages, or makes Anders a Martyr and then helps kill them--but I have to put that part on Hawke, since he/she is in a position to react. As for thinking breaking away from the Chantry was nuts, Wynne thought the same thing, and eventually supports the rebellion in the end. Even Anders seems to think peaceful change is possible, right up until around act 3, and it was only after the continued tensions escalated. Attacking the Chantry wasn't the first choice. He's still very Andrastian despite everything, for that matter. Or perhaps they both knew voting to seperate would lead to war, and neither wanted to jump to that conclusion at the time.
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Post by Lazarillo on May 26, 2017 21:12:45 GMT
So: Anders in Awakening supported the Chantry's Circle system? I don't think so... His reason to offer his body to Justice was (beside to save his life), that Justice offered him a help to free the mages. Ask him yourself: This one didn't make me go "HAH!" and snap a screenshot for irony's sake, so I don't recall the exact line, but when you point out to him that innocent mages will die as a result of his actions, he says something along the lines of "those who won't stand for freedom are no better than their oppressors!" He didn't give Mages a "chance" to rebel. He forced them to. He literally set it up so that any mage who didn't rebel would die. There's no choice in what he did, either. And yes, he did want the Circle annulled. That's why he killed the only person who could veto it. Does that absolve Meredith of her guilt? Absolutely not. However, don't portray Anders as a icon of freedom. He makes no bones about the fact that he wanted Mages to die, too. Varric mentions it to Vivienne in Inquisition, too. Vivienne: What could he possibly have hoped to accomplish with such madness? Varric: Exactly what he got: a whole lot of innocent people killing each other.
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Post by Catilina on May 26, 2017 21:27:53 GMT
So: Anders in Awakening supported the Chantry's Circle system? I don't think so... His reason to offer his body to Justice was (beside to save his life), that Justice offered him a help to free the mages. Ask him yourself: This one didn't make me go "HAH!" and snap a screenshot for irony's sake, so I don't recall the exact line, but when you point out to him that innocent mages will die as a result of his actions, he says something along the lines of "those who won't stand for freedom are no better than their oppressors!" He didn't give Mages a "chance" to rebel. He forced them to. He literally set it up so that any mage who didn't rebel would die. There's no choice in what he did, either. And yes, he did want the Circle annulled. That's why he killed the only person who could veto it. Does that absolve Meredith of her guilt? Absolutely not. However, don't portray Anders as a icon of freedom. He makes no bones about the fact that he wanted Mages to die, too. Varric mentions it to Vivienne in Inquisition, too. Vivienne: What could he possibly have hoped to accomplish with such madness? Varric: Exactly what he got: a whole lot of innocent people killing each other. Ah, this one... this isn' a surprise: Anders didn't believe, that this is possible. Not, until he merged with Justice. And this was why he wanted this merge: Justice gave him confidence and persistence. Yes, he forced them to protect themselves, and to fight for their own freedom. Bethany already noticed, that this is important, and the hiding and living closed is not normal. she recognized that her purpose is to fight for her own freedom and for her fellows. But Bethany would never capable of starting a revolution. Varric is biased, but I can understand him, why so frustrated (Anders was one of his best friends, and he was who cared about Kirkwall, and probably Aveline, I think, Varric disappointed in Anders). And Varric just reluctantly supports the Mages. Vivienne's standpoint is irrelevant in this issues.
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Post by Lazarillo on May 26, 2017 21:29:31 GMT
Except Justice states that it's not just about Elthina. He knows that his actions are going to cause Meredith to annul the Circle, and he's sacrificing their lives indirectly to create a show of Templar aggression that will motivate other Circles to rise up. According to him, every Mage that isn't killing Templars is a guilty accomplice to Mage oppression. I'd say he expected the Circles would use it as a pretext to defend themselves, as open rebellion was then justifiably self defense. He probably also expects Hawke would defend them as well--Hawke is either a mage or has a mage sibling in there. What Varric says in the end, if Hawke sided with mages, was the battle showed the Templars could be defied and many lived to tell about it. If Hawke sides with the Templars and helps slaughter them all, then that showed how ruthless they could be. So the end result was still the same. Either Hawke openly defends the mages, or makes Anders a Martyr and then helps kill them--but I have to put that part on Hawke, since he/she is in a position to react. I buy it. I don't agree with it, but I buy it. My point isn't who he wanted to be seen as the aggressors, though, as much as the fact that he makes no illusions about the fact that he wanted people on both sides to die. As I mentioned to Catalina, it doesn't make any of the other parties really any less guilty of their own actions (Hawke included), but what it comes down to is still that, regardless of anything else, "Anders" wanted innocent people to be killed. If, by some crazy miracle, Meredith actually had been persuaded not to Annul the Circle, do you think "Anders" wouldn't have tried some sort of even more radical action to goad her into it? I don't read the spinoff novels, so I can't comment on Wynne's position, but this is more just an irony thing to me. It's part of the reason I don't even consider DA2 Anders to really be Anders. I still think there's more evidence pointing to the idea that he's another Justice-zombie, it's just that in this case, he doesn't actually realize he's a Justice-zombie.
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Post by Catilina on May 26, 2017 21:35:53 GMT
I'd say he expected the Circles would use it as a pretext to defend themselves, as open rebellion was then justifiably self defense. He probably also expects Hawke would defend them as well--Hawke is either a mage or has a mage sibling in there. What Varric says in the end, if Hawke sided with mages, was the battle showed the Templars could be defied and many lived to tell about it. If Hawke sides with the Templars and helps slaughter them all, then that showed how ruthless they could be. So the end result was still the same. Either Hawke openly defends the mages, or makes Anders a Martyr and then helps kill them--but I have to put that part on Hawke, since he/she is in a position to react. I buy it. I don't agree with it, but I buy it. My point isn't who he wanted to be seen as the aggressors, though, as much as the fact that he makes no illusions about the fact that he wanted people on both sides to die. As I mentioned to Catalina, it doesn't make any of the other parties really any less guilty of their own actions (Hawke included), but what it comes down to is still that, regardless of anything else, "Anders" wanted innocent people to be killed. If, by some crazy miracle, Meredith actually had been persuaded not to Annul the Circle, do you think "Anders" wouldn't have tried some sort of even more radical action to goad her into it? I don't read the spinoff novels, so I can't comment on Wynne's position, but this is more just an irony thing to me. It's part of the reason I don't even consider DA2 Anders to really be Anders. I still think there's more evidence pointing to the idea that he's another Justice-zombie, it's just that in this case, he doesn't actually realize he's a Justice-zombie.REALLY he's not himself? You didn't meet with Anders? The angry, proud, but not too confident guy, who covered his anger and sadness with sarcasm and charm? Who doesn't feel himself strong enough to do something, not just run away? This guy same as DA2-Anders, but DA2 Anders stronger. Anders wanted this rebellion, not Justice forced him. He had real reason to believe he had corrupted Justice. How annoying it is that people are blaming Justice for everything because Anders is so cute! He's not that cute innocent guy. When he merged with Justice, he knew, what he doing. Not everything, but still. And this is why I hate rivalry with him: because Hawke forces him to believe, that everything is Justice's fault. But this is not true. But the people, who liked Awakening-Anders better, received Awakening-Anders back: he again that unsure guy who blames someone else. true: he has a little flaw: doesn't want to live anymore. But he was right and won: his cause was right, and the rebellion started. No matter what happens after that, nothing will ever be the same again.
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Post by raikas on May 26, 2017 22:06:01 GMT
I believe people's condemnation of the destruction of the Chantry temple was that it caused the death of kind hearted Elthina. But what if the ones inside the building were only priests and Andrastian leaders who adamantly oppose mage freedom? Would you not consider it a righteous blow against his oppressors? I don't buy it. As people have already said, not picking a side doesn't make her kind-hearted, and aside from that it's very possible to do a playthrough and barely come into contact with her (especially on a first run, which is when a lot of people make up their minds about the chantry explosion). Personally I think whoever was inside you would always have the freedom-fighter/terrorist debate just because it mirrors the kind of situation that's centered around that kind of debate both in real life and in other fiction. Some people might be more likely to take the freedom-fighter side if we had concrete evidence that only a limited selection of individuals were killed, but even then it wouldn't be anywhere near all of them, since some people would still be focused on the legal aspect, and others might go at it from a pacifist's standpoint (although honestly I don't really think you can genuinely do a pacifist character in these games).
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Post by Sah291 on May 26, 2017 23:00:27 GMT
I'd say he expected the Circles would use it as a pretext to defend themselves, as open rebellion was then justifiably self defense. He probably also expects Hawke would defend them as well--Hawke is either a mage or has a mage sibling in there. What Varric says in the end, if Hawke sided with mages, was the battle showed the Templars could be defied and many lived to tell about it. If Hawke sides with the Templars and helps slaughter them all, then that showed how ruthless they could be. So the end result was still the same. Either Hawke openly defends the mages, or makes Anders a Martyr and then helps kill them--but I have to put that part on Hawke, since he/she is in a position to react. I buy it. I don't agree with it, but I buy it. My point isn't who he wanted to be seen as the aggressors, though, as much as the fact that he makes no illusions about the fact that he wanted people on both sides to die. As I mentioned to Catalina, it doesn't make any of the other parties really any less guilty of their own actions (Hawke included), but what it comes down to is still that, regardless of anything else, "Anders" wanted innocent people to be killed. If, by some crazy miracle, Meredith actually had been persuaded not to Annul the Circle, do you think "Anders" wouldn't have tried some sort of even more radical action to goad her into it? I don't read the spinoff novels, so I can't comment on Wynne's position, but this is more just an irony thing to me. It's part of the reason I don't even consider DA2 Anders to really be Anders. I still think there's more evidence pointing to the idea that he's another Justice-zombie, it's just that in this case, he doesn't actually realize he's a Justice-zombie. Well, I think he accepted that people would die if there was a war, and that innocent people would be drawn in to fight. But I don't think he necessarily wanted them to die, just that he thought freedom was worth the risk of dying for, and it was a necessary but regrettable sacrifice to make. Also I don't think he targeted the Chantry because they were innocent, I think he targeted them because he saw them as culpable for the injustice. In this way the Circle was also guilty, or at least their leaders, since they also upheld the system (and there really was blood magic going on in the Kirkwall Circle). So if you are saying he wanted to bring both the Chantry and Circle leadership to justice, I agree, but I don't agree he relished the idea of innocent bystanders getting killed. There's no evidence he was bloodthirsty in that way. Arguably at the very end of the rivalry path, where his sanity is just gone, maybe, but even then he regrets what he's done, and he's broken over the idea of having to kill his own people. If you side with Templars after befriending him, he shows up to confront Hawke and to fight on the side of the mages, so I think that shows he intended to defend the innocent mages there if he lived, and had hoped Hawke would do the same.
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Post by Treacherous J Slither on Jun 6, 2017 12:42:08 GMT
He shouldn't have blown up the Chantry.
He should have blown up the Templar buildings/barracks and freed the Circle mages.
He should have traveled Thedas liberating mages from Templar control by killing Templars and disrupting their lyrium shipments.
The Chantry would then be forced to seek some form of compromise because control would no longer be possible.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2017 13:11:23 GMT
Templars serve the Chantry. Destroying the Chantry frees both the Templars and the Mages. The real enemy is the Chantry that pressed both the Order and the Circles into servitude and keeps them in a perpetual conflict. Liberated Templars + Mages working together for any cause make the best solution. It is Chantry that enforces the policy of Templars' oversight of Mages. When it is removed, Templars can forge their own policy guided by their own morality, like the Wardens and, eventually, the Inquisition. It could still include safeguarding the Harrowing, and searching out the mages that engage into predatory blood magic, but eliminate the jailor/babysitting aspect of the Order.
Chantry is a religious body that through the Andrastian Doctrine reduced both the Mages and the Templars to their rather sorry subservient state.
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Post by Catilina on Jun 6, 2017 13:13:17 GMT
He shouldn't have blown up the Chantry. He should have blown up the Templar buildings/barracks and freed the Circle mages. He should have traveled Thedas liberating mages from Templar control by killing Templars and disrupting their lyrium shipments. The Chantry would then be forced to seek some form of compromise because control would no longer be possible. Yes, that's would be nice. But he's just one man (two with Hawke), not an army. He travelled from Circle to Circle (with Hawke) after the Kirkwall battle, and liberated the mages (Anders romanced Hawke spoke about this in Inquisition.)
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Post by Treacherous J Slither on Jun 9, 2017 12:17:01 GMT
Templars serve the Chantry. Destroying the Chantry frees both the Templars and the Mages. The real enemy is the Chantry that pressed both the Order and the Circles into servitude and keeps them in a perpetual conflict. Liberated Templars + Mages working together for any cause make the best solution. It is Chantry that enforces the policy of Templars' oversight of Mages. When it is removed, Templars can forge their own policy guided by their own morality, like the Wardens and, eventually, the Inquisition. It could still include safeguarding the Harrowing, and searching out the mages that engage into predatory blood magic, but eliminate the jailor/babysitting aspect of the Order.
Chantry is a religious body that through the Andrastian Doctrine reduced both the Mages and the Templars to their rather sorry subservient state. Templars are drug addicts. Prolonged lyrium use eventually destroys their minds. If the mages are free, they should be trusted to police each other. No need for people to ruin themselves by becoming Templars.
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Post by Catilina on Jun 9, 2017 12:38:00 GMT
Templars serve the Chantry. Destroying the Chantry frees both the Templars and the Mages. The real enemy is the Chantry that pressed both the Order and the Circles into servitude and keeps them in a perpetual conflict. Liberated Templars + Mages working together for any cause make the best solution. It is Chantry that enforces the policy of Templars' oversight of Mages. When it is removed, Templars can forge their own policy guided by their own morality, like the Wardens and, eventually, the Inquisition. It could still include safeguarding the Harrowing, and searching out the mages that engage into predatory blood magic, but eliminate the jailor/babysitting aspect of the Order.
Chantry is a religious body that through the Andrastian Doctrine reduced both the Mages and the Templars to their rather sorry subservient state. Templars are drug addicts. Prolonged lyrium use eventually destroys their minds. If the mages are free, they should be trusted to police each other. No need for people to ruin themselves by becoming Templars. As I know, their abilities useable without lyrium addiction. But in any case, the people need effective police against the rogue mages. Mages, seekers, templars, together. Of course, I prefer not using lyrium. What the Chantry did against the mages and also the templars, is unacceptable.
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