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Post by Catilina on Dec 24, 2017 23:50:10 GMT
I don't think this is true when the romance is started, though, since you don't learn about his past until later on. I think he absolutely does fit the KISA bill at the start of the game before all that comes out, when you have the opportunity to "fall" for him. I think it's very easy to play the romance as "you're not the man I thought you were." (I know that he does try to warn you away, but also that it's vague, so could be about anything.) Good point, but ultimately you do learn that he's not a KISA, and so for me that means if I were asking for a KISA for male character, Blackwall wouldn't qualify. Like if that's what I was asking for, I would expect the character to be true through and through, a knight to his bones, sort of like Cullen. Now, consequently I WOULD like a m/m KISA, but so many people have no doubt already asked for that, I wanted to add that I also would like a grizzled veteran type (which would exclude younger characters like Alistair). Hmm. Cullen's armour also bloody... We can say, he's on his way to being KISA. At the moment, he's not really. Until he does not completely reject Meredith and the Templar methods in the Circles. I just say. True, his type is a KISA, yes, and Bioware suggests, that he's a KISA...
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Post by Artemis on Dec 25, 2017 0:10:58 GMT
Good point, but ultimately you do learn that he's not a KISA, and so for me that means if I were asking for a KISA for male character, Blackwall wouldn't qualify. Like if that's what I was asking for, I would expect the character to be true through and through, a knight to his bones, sort of like Cullen. Now, consequently I WOULD like a m/m KISA, but so many people have no doubt already asked for that, I wanted to add that I also would like a grizzled veteran type (which would exclude younger characters like Alistair). Hmm. Cullen's armour also bloody... We can say, he's on his way to being KISA. At the moment, he's not really. Until he does not completely reject Meredith and the Templar methods in the Circles. I just say. Trie, his type is a KISA, yes, and Bioware suggests, that he's a KISA... lol That's fair. The thing about Cullen is that for most of his life he believes he has been on the side of righteousness, justice, and good. Those are the qualities of a "good" knight. (Please note that I am excluding vaguely noncanonical Cullen who murders everyone in one DAO epiloque.) And by the time we get to DAI Cullen, he admits that he was wrong in his past, which I think is a very KISA thing to do. On top of that, Cullen is always very, hmm, "put together" you might say. He's polite, thoughtful, and has a sort of "noble mien." (I think Alistair also shares those traits, even if he is a bit goofy, which I chalk up to youth.) Blackwall fits more my "grizzled warrior" cliche instead of the KISA cliche because he is gruff, grumpy, and has a "The things I've seen in this world..." type of attitude. If you want to get down to it, their faults I suppose could be held almost equal... Blackwall murders or sanctions murders of innocent people, but Cullen does the same with mages... no, he doesn't murder them, really? But allowing tranquility to go as far as it did in Kirkwall is not forgiveable. But again, Cullen has always thought he was doing the right thing, whereas Blackwall probably knew he was doing a bad thing even as he was doing it. And that guilt has hung over him his entire life. I like discussing these two guys
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Post by Nightscrawl on Dec 25, 2017 0:47:26 GMT
That was a great comparison between the two men, Artemis. (Please note that I am excluding vaguely noncanonical Cullen who murders everyone in one DAO epiloque.) Lol... Even though this was sort of humorous, I do think it's the most valid to take the most recent iteration of the character and work backward from there. With DAI Cullen, it's clear that he didn't do that, so that can't be part of the discussion, even if a given player does have that as part of their DAO epilogue. Yeah, retconning sucks, but at least they've (the devs) seemed to have learned their lesson with overly detailed epilogues. I doubt that we'll see most of the DAI characters again, given the way (and where!) the game seems to be heading. Some characters, like Dorian, have the same fate regardless of your own actions, only some small details (romance) are different. The same is true for Solas.
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Post by witchcocktor on Dec 25, 2017 2:02:17 GMT
I'd like a gay prince/king, or any kind of gay royalty that I can become a husband of, and then rule together as a couple or something similar. Gay power couple and all that. But mostly I want to go to a ball and dance with my lover, either badly while tearing shit up and get kicked out of the ball, or then well and be the life of the party and everyone is jealous of our amazing sexual, emotional, physical chemistry. I just want a male x male dance scene next game, and I'd really like to be in a really fancy suit as well. Dancing is so erotic, and romantic, and fun, and sweet.
If not that, then a gay pirate who is tough, masculine and kind of gross and vulgar but he has a real sensitive, romantic, sweet side that of course only you will get to see, and his tough act crumbles when he is around you. And then at the end of the game, you runaway together of course.
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Post by copper on Dec 25, 2017 4:12:11 GMT
I agree with a lot that's been said, including the f/f version of melting the ice queen, a dwarf romance of any kind, and a male Qunari like Sten or the Arishok. Other than that... I think a political marriage could be interesting. The player and npc would have to decide if they want to try to actually care for each other romantically or just be together platonically for whatever reason the marriage occurred. Sort of like an expanded version of Cousland and Anora.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 25, 2017 11:12:01 GMT
I'd like a gay prince/king, or any kind of gay royalty that I can become a husband of, and then rule together as a couple or something similar. Gay power couple and all that. But mostly I want to go to a ball and dance with my lover, either badly while tearing shit up and get kicked out of the ball, or then well and be the life of the party and everyone is jealous of our amazing sexual, emotional, physical chemistry. I just want a male x male dance scene next game, and I'd really like to be in a really fancy suit as well. Dancing is so erotic, and romantic, and fun, and sweet. If not that, then a gay pirate who is tough, masculine and kind of gross and vulgar but he has a real sensitive, romantic, sweet side that of course only you will get to see, and his tough act crumbles when he is around you. And then at the end of the game, you runaway together of course. That's my wish too. Would be wonderful!
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Post by witchcocktor on Dec 25, 2017 15:22:02 GMT
I'd like a gay prince/king, or any kind of gay royalty that I can become a husband of, and then rule together as a couple or something similar. Gay power couple and all that. But mostly I want to go to a ball and dance with my lover, either badly while tearing shit up and get kicked out of the ball, or then well and be the life of the party and everyone is jealous of our amazing sexual, emotional, physical chemistry. I just want a male x male dance scene next game, and I'd really like to be in a really fancy suit as well. Dancing is so erotic, and romantic, and fun, and sweet. If not that, then a gay pirate who is tough, masculine and kind of gross and vulgar but he has a real sensitive, romantic, sweet side that of course only you will get to see, and his tough act crumbles when he is around you. And then at the end of the game, you runaway together of course. That's my wish too. Would be wonderful! Yeah it would, I want to fuck love my way to the top! A political gay marriage would be interest as well but that sounds like a plot from a really bad gay fanfiction made by a woman.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 25, 2017 15:58:15 GMT
That's my wish too. Would be wonderful! Yeah it would, I want to fuck love my way to the top! A political gay marriage would be interest as well but that sounds like a plot from a really bad gay fanfiction made by a woman. I hope not! And I don't care who writes it if has respect. By the way, I'm really curious, what will happen with the Dorian and Inquisitor in Tevinter... if Dorian become archon... I have some doubts.
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Post by witchcocktor on Dec 25, 2017 16:18:16 GMT
Yeah it would, I want to fuck love my way to the top! A political gay marriage would be interest as well but that sounds like a plot from a really bad gay fanfiction made by a woman. I hope not! And I don't care who writes it if has respect. By the way, I'm really curious, what will happen with the Dorian and Inquisitor in Tevinter... if Dorian become archon... I have some doubts. Does it really matter if we can't play Inquisitor? If romanced Dorian gets a good ending with Inquisitor, it really doesn't matter when the game where we DID play Inquisitor, we got a really shit on a stick ending with Dorian. To buy another game where you can't even experience the development of the romance first hand, no matter how nice their endgame, is just bollocks and really lame. It would be nice if he became Archon and the Inquisitor got to be there next to him while he sits on his throne, but it really doesn't matter if we aren't experiencing that position ourselves.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2017 16:55:32 GMT
I hope not! And I don't care who writes it if has respect. By the way, I'm really curious, what will happen with the Dorian and Inquisitor in Tevinter... if Dorian become archon... I have some doubts. Does it really matter if we can't play Inquisitor? If romanced Dorian gets a good ending with Inquisitor, it really doesn't matter when the game where we DID play Inquisitor, we got a really shit on a stick ending with Dorian. To buy another game where you can't even experience the development of the romance first hand, no matter how nice their endgame, is just bollocks and really lame. It would be nice if he became Archon and the Inquisitor got to be there next to him while he sits on his throne, but it really doesn't matter if we aren't experiencing that position ourselves. To be fair, I can’t think of a single romance that went into the “happily ever after” with the nobility characters. Sebastian offers a wedding, Risha offers sort of a wedding with the Smuggler being able to win a title of a pirate king of sorts, Alistair does not offer a wedding (Anora appears by his side, but Cosuland does not), Dorian and Cassandra offer nothing.... I might be forgetting someone who comes from traditional nobility with a title equivalent to Duke/Prince, but overall, you have to have a game revolving around the royal storyline to actually experience the power couple. Solas, despite having the illustrious pedigree does not accept the Inquisitor as his ally and spouse. The closest they come to it is Reyes as a modern equivalent of sorts, with Ryder being the foremost “knight” of the AI, while Reyes gains the control of the Exiles faction as a self-appointed shadow prince, but really we do not get to act as a couple. I would have liked a romance in a game like that, but it would be very niche, and, as Solas and Alistair’s case demonstrates, does not really work for all players and as a long term story.
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Post by witchcocktor on Dec 25, 2017 17:13:26 GMT
Does it really matter if we can't play Inquisitor? If romanced Dorian gets a good ending with Inquisitor, it really doesn't matter when the game where we DID play Inquisitor, we got a really shit on a stick ending with Dorian. To buy another game where you can't even experience the development of the romance first hand, no matter how nice their endgame, is just bollocks and really lame. It would be nice if he became Archon and the Inquisitor got to be there next to him while he sits on his throne, but it really doesn't matter if we aren't experiencing that position ourselves. To be fair, I can’t think of a single romance that went into the “happily ever after” with the nobility characters. Sebastian offers a wedding, Risha offers sort of a wedding with the Smuggler being able to win a title of a pirate king of sorts, Alistair does not offer a wedding (Anora appears by his side, but Cosuland does not), Dorian and Cassandra offer nothing.... I might be forgetting someone who comes from traditional nobility with a title equivalent to Duke/Prince, but overall, you have to have a game revolving around the royal storyline to actually experience the power couple. Solas, despite having the illustrious pedigree does not accept the Inquisitor as his ally and spouse. The closest they come to it is Reyes as a modern equivalent of sorts, with Ryder being the foremost “knight” of the AI, while Reyes gains the control of the Exiles faction as a self-appointed shadow prince, but really we do not get to act as a couple. I would have liked a romance in a game like that, but it would be very niche, and, as Solas and Alistair’s case demonstrates, does not really work for all players and as a long term story. '' It would be very niche '' I guess if by niche you mean a wholesome romance that builds up, doesn't leave you hanging and gives you a good ending for all your effort. Bioware fans just looooove to suffer, that much is true. But I think BW could at least cut some slack for the gays who didn't really get an option for an undeniably good ending in DA:I. Dorian has to do his thing and you can't really object or change his mind, and Iron Bull either dies or you remain in some kind of dubious long-distance relationship as well, according to the slides in Trespasser, anyway.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2017 17:21:49 GMT
To be fair, I can’t think of a single romance that went into the “happily ever after” with the nobility characters. Sebastian offers a wedding, Risha offers sort of a wedding with the Smuggler being able to win a title of a pirate king of sorts, Alistair does not offer a wedding (Anora appears by his side, but Cosuland does not), Dorian and Cassandra offer nothing.... I might be forgetting someone who comes from traditional nobility with a title equivalent to Duke/Prince, but overall, you have to have a game revolving around the royal storyline to actually experience the power couple. Solas, despite having the illustrious pedigree does not accept the Inquisitor as his ally and spouse. The closest they come to it is Reyes as a modern equivalent of sorts, with Ryder being the foremost “knight” of the AI, while Reyes gains the control of the Exiles faction as a self-appointed shadow prince, but really we do not get to act as a couple. I would have liked a romance in a game like that, but it would be very niche, and, as Solas and Alistair’s case demonstrates, does not really work for all players and as a long term story. '' It would be very niche '' I guess if niche you mean a wholesome romance that builds up, doesn't leave you hanging and gives you a good ending for all your effort. Bioware fans just looooove to suffer, that much is true. No, I mean the romance that have the players and his or her lover act as a couple, adventuring together, particularly when in position of power, with the strong emphasis given to their married/together status. They tried to create that feel with autodialogues during Legacy and Trespasser between the main character and the lover, but it is a far cry of actually adventuring together and solving the fate of the world as a couple. This will really ask for a very small cast and very few romance options, maybe as few as just two, to put the emphasis on the storyline. Maybe possible in a DLC or a separate quest. I like the Hushed Whispers quest so much because I get to adventure with Dorian specifically. Companion missions in ME2 and Andromeda also do put a highlight on cooperation between just two characters and give them a lot of interactions... But on the whole, the romances normally end before the relationship necessitates to be built into the story, even as central to the story as Alistair’s, Anders’, Thane’s, Solas’ and Dorian’s. To do otherwise, you have to deal with a lot of players that will either complain that their romance is not linked to the story, or hate having a character that is important to someone else shoved down their throats like Morrigan for three games in a row. To have the romance central to the story and the lover companion being linked to the pc, you pretty much need a game with a fixed protagonist and very few choices.
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Post by witchcocktor on Dec 25, 2017 17:32:02 GMT
'' It would be very niche '' I guess if niche you mean a wholesome romance that builds up, doesn't leave you hanging and gives you a good ending for all your effort. Bioware fans just looooove to suffer, that much is true. No, I mean the romance that have the players and his or her lover act as a couple, adventuring together, particularly when in position of power, with the strong emphasis given to their married/together status. They tried to create that feel with autodialogues during Legacy and Trespasser between the main character and the lover, but it is a far cry of actually adventuring together and solving the fate of the world as a couple. This will really ask for a very small cast and very few romance options, maybe as few as just two, to put the emphasis on the storyline. Maybe possible in a DLC or a separate quest. I like the Hushed Whispers quest so much because I get to adventure with Dorian specifically. Companion missions in ME2 and Andromeda also do put a highlight on cooperation between just two characters and give them a lot of interactions... But on the whole, the romances normally end before the relationship necessitates to be built into the story, even as central to the story as Alistair’s, Anders’, Thane’s, Solas’ and Dorian’s. To do otherwise, you have to deal with a lot of players that will either complain that their romance is not linked to the story, or hate having a character that is important to someone else shoved down their throats like Morrigan for three games in a row. To have the romance central to the story and the lover companion being linked to the pc, you pretty much need a game with a fixed protagonist and very few choices. Okay well none of what you said is actually appealing to me, so yeah I guess it is very niche. I just want a relationship that ends up in marrying someone of nobility and then getting a epilogue slide about how we are ruling something together as a couple. That's all I'm asking. And maybe having to deal with whatever criticism we as a couple get for me, the player, not being noble and don't know my etiquette. And I don't really think that a romance has to be central to the story, but rather a character that is central to the story. I personally think the two can be separate as long as our relationship status gets confirmed in dialogue and maybe in a main story cutscene or two, or three.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2017 21:29:42 GMT
No, I mean the romance that have the players and his or her lover act as a couple, adventuring together, particularly when in position of power, with the strong emphasis given to their married/together status. They tried to create that feel with autodialogues during Legacy and Trespasser between the main character and the lover, but it is a far cry of actually adventuring together and solving the fate of the world as a couple. This will really ask for a very small cast and very few romance options, maybe as few as just two, to put the emphasis on the storyline. Maybe possible in a DLC or a separate quest. I like the Hushed Whispers quest so much because I get to adventure with Dorian specifically. Companion missions in ME2 and Andromeda also do put a highlight on cooperation between just two characters and give them a lot of interactions... But on the whole, the romances normally end before the relationship necessitates to be built into the story, even as central to the story as Alistair’s, Anders’, Thane’s, Solas’ and Dorian’s. To do otherwise, you have to deal with a lot of players that will either complain that their romance is not linked to the story, or hate having a character that is important to someone else shoved down their throats like Morrigan for three games in a row. To have the romance central to the story and the lover companion being linked to the pc, you pretty much need a game with a fixed protagonist and very few choices. Okay well none of what you said is actually appealing to me, so yeah I guess it is very niche. I just want a relationship that ends up in marrying someone of nobility and then getting a epilogue slide about how we are ruling something together as a couple. That's all I'm asking. And maybe having to deal with whatever criticism we as a couple get for me, the player, not being noble and don't know my etiquette. And I don't really think that a romance has to be central to the story, but rather a character that is central to the story. I personally think the two can be separate as long as our relationship status gets confirmed in dialogue and maybe in a main story cutscene or two, or three. Oh, that’s what was done more or less in the romances I quoted, so it’s available. It is also the most likely to happen in either the very last game of the franchise for the very last protagonist, or when the franchise openly prepares to jumpe a few decades into the future/past in the next game, so you can have definitive ending. Personally, I am more interested in having an affair with a character who is heavily involved in the plot and an in-game commitment between equally powerful characters, rather than marriage. Dorian’s romance would have been perfect if the Inquisitor did not get destroyed by the game in Trespasser as a powerful political force in the realm etc. As it is, it ended up in a very unequal situation, with Dorian climbing the ranks, and the protagonist becoming irrelevant.
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Post by witchcocktor on Dec 25, 2017 21:47:32 GMT
Okay well none of what you said is actually appealing to me, so yeah I guess it is very niche. I just want a relationship that ends up in marrying someone of nobility and then getting a epilogue slide about how we are ruling something together as a couple. That's all I'm asking. And maybe having to deal with whatever criticism we as a couple get for me, the player, not being noble and don't know my etiquette. And I don't really think that a romance has to be central to the story, but rather a character that is central to the story. I personally think the two can be separate as long as our relationship status gets confirmed in dialogue and maybe in a main story cutscene or two, or three. Oh, that’s what was done more or less in the romances I quoted, so it’s available. It is also the most likely to happen in either the very last game of the franchise for the very last protagonist, or when the franchise openly prepares to jumpe a few decades into the future/past in the next game, so you can have definitive ending. Personally, I am more interested in having an affair with a character who is heavily involved in the plot and an in-game commitment between equally powerful characters, rather than marriage. Dorian’s romance would have been perfect if the Inquisitor did not get destroyed by the game in Trespasser as a powerful political force in the realm etc. As it is, it ended up in a very unequal situation, with Dorian climbing the ranks, and the protagonist becoming irrelevant. It's not really available for gay men. Dorian is Dorian and rejects your offer to stand by his side, as his lover, inside the Imperium so it doesn't really count. I'm much more interested in being a nobody and then ending up with someone of nobility besides you, therefor gaining social status yourself. In general I like playing nobodies, being a hero and a bigshot is so blase.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2017 23:19:15 GMT
Oh, that’s what was done more or less in the romances I quoted, so it’s available. It is also the most likely to happen in either the very last game of the franchise for the very last protagonist, or when the franchise openly prepares to jumpe a few decades into the future/past in the next game, so you can have definitive ending. Personally, I am more interested in having an affair with a character who is heavily involved in the plot and an in-game commitment between equally powerful characters, rather than marriage. Dorian’s romance would have been perfect if the Inquisitor did not get destroyed by the game in Trespasser as a powerful political force in the realm etc. As it is, it ended up in a very unequal situation, with Dorian climbing the ranks, and the protagonist becoming irrelevant. It's not really available for gay men. Dorian is Dorian and rejects your offer to stand by his side, as his lover, inside the Imperium so it doesn't really count. I'm much more interested in being a nobody and then ending up with someone of nobility besides you, therefor gaining social status yourself. In general I like playing nobodies, being a hero and a bigshot is so blase. Well, I am coming from the position that all relationships are opened to all characters, so specifics of the protagonist’s gender and race are left to the player. I do prefer playing powerful characters, and miss romances with powerful men of high standing in the position that rivals that of the PC. Reyes and Alistair are my favourites because of it, as well as Anders because of his revolutionary role in the world Order. they do have a lot of characters with noble backgrounds in DA series, so sooner or later they will have an epilogue marriage to a member of aristocracy.
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Post by witchcocktor on Dec 26, 2017 1:06:33 GMT
It's not really available for gay men. Dorian is Dorian and rejects your offer to stand by his side, as his lover, inside the Imperium so it doesn't really count. I'm much more interested in being a nobody and then ending up with someone of nobility besides you, therefor gaining social status yourself. In general I like playing nobodies, being a hero and a bigshot is so blase. Well, I am coming from the position that all relationships are opened to all characters, so specifics of the protagonist’s gender and race are left to the player. I do prefer playing powerful characters, and miss romances with powerful men of high standing in the position that rivals that of the PC. Reyes and Alistair are my favourites because of it, as well as Anders because of his revolutionary role in the world Order. they do have a lot of characters with noble backgrounds in DA series, so sooner or later they will have an epilogue marriage to a member of aristocracy. I like the difference in status, it makes for an interesting dynamic. I can't figure out anything that'd specifically attract me in a dynamic where both of the people are noble or high in the social ladder. Hell, I don't even like to play Trevelyan because they are noble by default, IIRC. It suuuucks, I want to be a nobody who remains a nobody or becomes a somebody by marrying and loving a person of high status. I'm not sure what DA4 is going to bring, but gay men have wanted a Knight in Shining Armor for years now, so, maybe?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2017 18:17:13 GMT
Just give me a female qunari. I don't care what kind of character they make her but I want my female qunari!!
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Post by Walter Black on Dec 26, 2017 19:27:28 GMT
I get why the Gay Knight in Shining Armor is popular; it's closer to Fantasy Classic, it would be a nice change from the morally ambiguous Love Interests, and LGBTQ people want to see themselves reflected in important, righteous and well adjusted heroes. However, a lot of what I'm seeing in this narrative is some wanting Gay KISAs who are super idealized, with no flaws to the point that they're no longer recognizably human. Dragon Age has never been some Saturday Morning Cartoon; right from the beginning we all knew that the franchise was a dark and adult story with complex characters and situations, and no easy answers. So here's a few questions:
1. How exactly do you justify these theoretical Gay KISAs remaining uncorruptable and untouchable without completely breaking the series lore and internal logic? Especially in Tevinter, one of deadliest and most chaotic cultures in Thedas, where idealists eventually end compromised, broken or dead?
2. If your answer to the above is, "I don't care if it makes sense or not, I want my perfect and mandatory Gay KISA", why are you even following a series known for dark and complex themes, and where no one if safe to begin with?
3. If the GKISA starts and remains noble and flawless, where are the growth character arcs? What's the point in following their story if they are same person at the end that they were at the beginning?
4. If the character is to be three dimensional and interesting, what flaws would be acceptable without claiming Bioware "soiled" them or "tricked" you?
5. What potential negative consequences could their Companion quests have that would be realistic and fitting to their story?
6. If your position is "we need mandatory GKISAs to balance the scales", have you forgotten that NONE of the straight KISAs were ideal?
- Cassandra could be a zealously intolerant bully.
- Thom Rainer was a liar who murdered innocent civilians and betrayed his men.
- Sebastian was wishy washy and willing to go to war over his own personal feelings.
- Aveline butt into peoples' lives whether they wanted her help or not, hypocritically ignored her friends' crimes, and was possibly mildly racist towards elves.
- And everyone's favorite for this trope, Alistair, was the absolute worst; a whiny manchild who abandons his responsibility as the ranking officer, potentially allows you to sacrifice Isolde or Connor, defile Andraste's ashes, keep the Anvil of the Void, wipe out the Dalish and sell the Denerim Elves into slavery, among other things. It's only when his need for vengeance is challenged that he betrays the Wardens during a Blight . Oh, and since this is a romance thread, don't forget how he dumps you unless you're a female human noble .
Don't get me wrong, I've enjoyed all of these characters' stories, but I enjoyed them because they were deeply flawed and believable. Just needed to remind everyone the notion of DA's previous straight KISAs as idealized being objectively false. Why should any GKISA's tales be any less complex and fulfilling?
7. Why are some people so obsessed with the notion that making a GKISA mandatory is the only way to stop homophobes from opposing them? As if bigotry is the only reason someone might not want the character ? Off the top of my head, I can think several reasons not to recruit or kick out a KISA, straight or gay, that have nothing to do with orientation:
- The player is roleplaying a ruthless Magister, and a Paragon KISA would be a threat to their ambition.
-Conversely, the player is radical revolutionary who wants to immediately and violently overthrow the Imperium, and the KISA is just too damn soft.
- The player agrees with sensibly and slowly reforming Tevinter and/or the Qun, but considers the KISA dangerously naïve.
- The player just doesn't like their personality, considering them obnoxious, judgmental, condescending, hypocritical and/or boring.
- The player prefers another character the KISA fights with.
- The player doesn't care for their Voice Actor.
- The player is going for the same class build, and considers them redundant.
With all those reasons and more, why do some still maintain it would be homophobia for the player not to include them?
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September 2016
witchcocktor
Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by witchcocktor on Dec 26, 2017 19:35:21 GMT
I get why the Gay Knight in Shining Armor is popular; it's closer to Fantasy Classic, it would be a nice change from the morally ambiguous Love Interests, and LGBTQ people want to see themselves reflected in important, righteous and well adjusted heroes. However, a lot of what I'm seeing in this narrative is some wanting Gay KISAs who are super idealized, with no flaws to the point that they're no longer recognizably human. Dragon Age has never been some Saturday Morning Cartoon; right from the beginning we all knew that the franchise was a dark and adult story with complex characters and situations, and no easy answers. So here's a few questions: 1. How exactly do you justify these theoretical Gay KISAs remaining uncorruptable and untouchable without completely breaking the series lore and internal logic? Especially in Tevinter, one of deadliest and most chaotic cultures in Thedas, where idealists eventually end compromised, broken or dead? 2. If your answer to the above is, "I don't care if it makes sense or not, I want my perfect and mandatory Gay KISA", why are you even following a series known for dark and complex themes, and where no one if safe to begin with? 3. If the GKISA starts and remains noble and flawless, where are the growth character arcs? What's the point in following their story if they are same person at the end that they were at the beginning? 4. If the character is to be three dimensional and interesting, what flaws would be acceptable without claiming Bioware "soiled" them or "tricked" you? 5. What potential negative consequences could their Companion quests have that would be realistic and fitting to their story? 6. If your position is "we need mandatory GKISAs to balance the scales", have you forgotten that NONE of the straight KISAs were ideal? - Cassandra could be a zealously intolerant bully. - Thom Rainer was a liar who murdered innocent civilians and betrayed his men. - Sebastian was wishy washy and willing to go to war over his own personal feelings. - Aveline butt into peoples' lives whether they wanted her help or not, hypocritically ignored her friends' crimes, and was possibly mildly racist towards elves. - And everyone's favorite for this trope, Alistair, was the absolute worst; a whiny manchild who abandons his responsibility as the ranking officer, potentially allows you to sacrifice Isolde or Connor, defile Andraste's ashes, keep the Anvil of the Void, wipe out the Dalish and sell the Denerim Elves into slavery, among other things. It's only when his need for vengeance is challenged that he betrays the Wardens during a Blight. Oh, and since this is a romance thread, don't forget how he dumps you unless you're a female human noble. Don't get me wrong, I've enjoyed all of these characters' stories, but I enjoyed them because they were deeply flawed and believable. Just needed to remind everyone the notion of DA's previous straight KISAs as idealized being objectively false. Why should any GKISA's tales be any less complex and fulfilling? 7. Why are some people so obsessed with the notion that making a GKISA mandatory is the only way to stop homophobes from opposing them? As if bigotry is the only reason someone might not want the character? Off the top of my head, I can think several reasons not to recruit or kick out a KISA, straight or gay, that have nothing to do with orientation: - The player is roleplaying a ruthless Magister, and a Paragon KISA would be a threat to their ambition. -Conversely, the player is radical revolutionary who wants to immediately and violently overthrow the Imperium, and the KISA is just too damn soft. - The player agrees with sensibly and slowly reforming Tevinter and/or the Qun, but considers the KISA dangerously naïve. - The player just doesn't like their personality, considering them obnoxious, judgmental, condescending, hypocritical and/or boring. - The player prefers another character the KISA fights with. - The player doesn't care for their Voice Actor. - The player is going for the same class build, and considers them redundant. Nobody is campaigning for an absolutely flawless perfect character... I'm not sure why you think that? Why gays are requesting a gay KISA so much is mainly because Alistair and Cullen, both very popular characters amongst gay men, who both happen to be straight and pretty close to the KISA archetype, WITH their flaws and quirks and all.
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Nightscrawl
3,266
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nightscrawl
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Nightscrawl on Dec 26, 2017 19:56:28 GMT
However, a lot of what I'm seeing in this narrative is some wanting Gay KISAs who are super idealized, with no flaws to the point that they're no longer recognizably human. This isn't accurate at all. No one who asks for a gay KISA wants a flawless ideal. To use just the recent DAI characters that you mention, both men and women were upset that Cassandra and Cullen were not available to them as same-sex romance options. So there you are, male and female KISAs that are humanly flawed, but still represent those KISA personality traits. The request for a gay KISA is about allowing that archetype to be available for same-sex romance. Thus far in the DA games, that has not happened; all of the KISA characters -- Alistair, Sebastian, Avaline (though not a romance option at all), Cassandra, Cullen -- have only been available as straight romance options, or (in the case of Avaline) have been portrayed as straight. It exemplifies Bioware's rigid mindset when it comes to what straight and gay people are, how they behave, what they can be, and it needs to change and expand. Even though they are different teams, MEA fell into this trap as well, with Jaal as the KISA only being available to women on release. With the patch, he's now available to both. So now we are in the situation were Mass Effect, which I consider to be the lesser of the two franchises when it comes to LGBT representation, has had a gay KISA and Dragon Age has not.
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Walter Black
1,253
Sept 15, 2016 15:02:16 GMT
September 2016
walterblack
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Post by Walter Black on Dec 26, 2017 19:57:32 GMT
I get why the Gay Knight in Shining Armor is popular; it's closer to Fantasy Classic, it would be a nice change from the morally ambiguous Love Interests, and LGBTQ people want to see themselves reflected in important, righteous and well adjusted heroes. However, a lot of what I'm seeing in this narrative is some wanting Gay KISAs who are super idealized, with no flaws to the point that they're no longer recognizably human. Dragon Age has never been some Saturday Morning Cartoon; right from the beginning we all knew that the franchise was a dark and adult story with complex characters and situations, and no easy answers. So here's a few questions:
1. How exactly do you justify these theoretical Gay KISAs remaining uncorruptable and untouchable without completely breaking the series lore and internal logic? Especially in Tevinter, one of deadliest and most chaotic cultures in Thedas, where idealists eventually end compromised, broken or dead?
2. If your answer to the above is, "I don't care if it makes sense or not, I want my perfect and mandatory Gay KISA", why are you even following a series known for dark and complex themes, and where no one if safe to begin with?
3. If the GKISA starts and remains noble and flawless, where are the growth character arcs? What's the point in following their story if they are same person at the end that they were at the beginning?
4. If the character is to be three dimensional and interesting, what flaws would be acceptable without claiming Bioware "soiled" them or "tricked" you?
5. What potential negative consequences could their Companion quests have that would be realistic and fitting to their story?
6. If your position is "we need mandatory GKISAs to balance the scales", have you forgotten that NONE of the straight KISAs were ideal?
- Cassandra could be a zealously intolerant bully.
- Thom Rainer was a liar who murdered innocent civilians and betrayed his men.
- Sebastian was wishy washy and willing to go to war over his own personal feelings.
- Aveline butt into peoples' lives whether they wanted her help or not, hypocritically ignored her friends' crimes, and was possibly mildly racist towards elves.
- And everyone's favorite for this trope, Alistair, was the absolute worst; a whiny manchild who abandons his responsibility as the ranking officer, potentially allows you to sacrifice Isolde or Connor, defile Andraste's ashes, keep the Anvil of the Void, wipe out the Dalish and sell the Denerim Elves into slavery, among other things. It's only when his need for vengeance is challenged that he betrays the Wardens during a Blight. Oh, and since this is a romance thread, don't forget how he dumps you unless you're a female human noble.
Don't get me wrong, I've enjoyed all of these characters' stories, but I enjoyed them because they were deeply flawed and believable. Just needed to remind everyone the notion of DA's previous straight KISAs as idealized being objectively false. Why should any GKISA's tales be any less complex and fulfilling?
7. Why are some people so obsessed with the notion that making a GKISA mandatory is the only way to stop homophobes from opposing them? As if bigotry is the only reason someone might not want the character? Off the top of my head, I can think several reasons not to recruit or kick out a KISA, straight or gay, that have nothing to do with orientation:
- The player is roleplaying a ruthless Magister, and a Paragon KISA would be a threat to their ambition.
-Conversely, the player is radical revolutionary who wants to immediately and violently overthrow the Imperium, and the KISA is just too damn soft.
- The player agrees with sensibly and slowly reforming Tevinter and/or the Qun, but considers the KISA dangerously naïve.
- The player just doesn't like their personality, considering them obnoxious, judgmental, condescending, hypocritical and/or boring.
- The player prefers another character the KISA fights with.
- The player doesn't care for their Voice Actor.
- The player is going for the same class build, and considers them redundant. Nobody is campaigning for an absolutely flawless perfect character... I'm not sure why you think that? Why gays are requesting a gay KISA so much is mainly because Alistair and Cullen, both very popular characters amongst gay men, who both happen to be straight and pretty close to the KISA archetype, WITH their flaws and quirks and all. Refer back to questions 1, 3 and 4; in just about every discussion I personally have had regarding a potential GKISA in DA4, people discussed how such a person could survive in Tevinter. What kind of personal and moral sacrifices have they had to make to stay alive, what lengths they would've needed to go to protect the innocent, when they had to choose who could or could not be saved. Nine times out ten, the mere possibility that the GKISA started, or through player influence could end up as morally ambiguous was considered unacceptable. That to be true Knight in Shining Armor and avoid any perceived mistakes of the past, they needed to stay noble and virtuous throughout all of their character arcs. Once again, in my personal experience .
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Nightscrawl
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nightscrawl
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Nightscrawl on Dec 26, 2017 20:08:54 GMT
Refer back to questions 1, 3 and 4; in just about every discussion I personally have had regarding a potential GKISA in DA4, people discussed how such a person could survive in Tevinter. What kind of personal and moral sacrifices have they had to make to stay alive, what lengths they would've needed to go to protect the innocent, when they had to choose who could or could not be saved. Nine times out ten, the mere possibility that the GKISA started, or through player influence could end up as morally ambiguous was considered unacceptable. That to be true Knight in Shining Armor and avoid any perceived mistakes of the past, they needed to stay noble and virtuous throughout all of their character arcs. Once again, in my personal experience . To be honest, it sounds like you are misrepresenting conversations you've had to suit your arguments. If you want to link to a few threads where we can actually read what other people have to say on the matter, then feel free. I believe I do recall some of that Tevinter conversation. (It might be another, I'm not entirely sure.) If it's the one I'm thinking of, I recall objecting to the fact of allowing the PC to have undue influence over the companions. To me, it's not necessarily about the act of corrupting a person, but of allowing the player too much influence over them so they are no longer their own person, making their own decisions, and instead acting on the whims and desires of the player. That is one thing I liked about most of the DAI followers: in most cases, they acted on their own, for their own reasons, even to the upset of some players. To me, that is good characterization and I don't want that to change. In my personal experience, I've seen people ask for those exact flawed characters you mention as same-sex romance options.
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Walter Black
1,253
Sept 15, 2016 15:02:16 GMT
September 2016
walterblack
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Post by Walter Black on Dec 26, 2017 21:08:30 GMT
Refer back to questions 1, 3 and 4; in just about every discussion I personally have had regarding a potential GKISA in DA4, people discussed how such a person could survive in Tevinter. What kind of personal and moral sacrifices have they had to make to stay alive, what lengths they would've needed to go to protect the innocent, when they had to choose who could or could not be saved. Nine times out ten, the mere possibility that the GKISA started, or through player influence could end up as morally ambiguous was considered unacceptable. That to be true Knight in Shining Armor and avoid any perceived mistakes of the past, they needed to stay noble and virtuous throughout all of their character arcs. Once again, in my personal experience . To be honest, it sounds like you are misrepresenting conversations you've had to suit your arguments. If you want to link to a few threads where we can actually read what other people have to say on the matter, then feel free. I can't remember every single one, but there were a few interesting comments in the old bsn.boards.net/thread/4870/gay-knight-shining-armor?page=18 thread, particularly towards the end. Aside from the Dragon Age talk, people went back and forth over whether Paladin Danse qualified as a KISA. A few posters, caladrius especially, felt that Danse's bigotry and intolerance should have immediately discarded him. There where times people tried to pigeonhole me into hating mandatory gay characters in bsn.boards.net/thread/3634/character-romance-thread-official, even after I repeatedly clarified that I was weary of mandatory characters at all, regardless of orientation . Unfortunately, it won't let me go to the specific pages.
My point about KISAs in Tevinter was less about the player's influence, and more them realistically staying a KISA in Tevinter. Let's be honest, if the previous KISAs had tried to maintain their personal moral codes in the Imperium, Alistair would have broken, Cullen would have become psychotic, and Cassandra would have been assassinated. Tevinter's worship of mage divine rights, eugenics, decadence, deadly politics, unspoken tolerance of blood magic and spirit/demon binding, prejudice and slavery being the norm makes it damn near impossible for anyone who wants to live and be a good person.
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Nov 27, 2017 14:40:55 GMT
803
warden
1,158
Nov 25, 2017 22:12:36 GMT
November 2017
warden
https://images4.alphacoders.com/101/thumb-1920-1010967.png
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by warden on Dec 26, 2017 21:09:58 GMT
to be honest i had no problems so far for what the games offered in this department.
people just takes things to much further for what it should be sometimes.
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