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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2017 17:05:46 GMT
I think MEA shows they are getting better with the open world aspects, but I'm still unconvinced that's a good direction for BioWare. IMO it would be better to concentrate on their strengths (story and characters) rather than open world. With DAI I felt like the open world portion of the game was the worst part. With MEA I felt like that part was better but the story and characters suffered (as a result?). If they really feel the need to continue in that direction: 1. Have fewer zones with more to do 2. No fetch quests or at least give them story context 3. Interesting NPCs in the zones 4. Cities 5. Towns 6. Anything that's not wilderness 7. No deserts I thought characters did win as a result in ME:A, because of how alive their casual conversations felt in the world, vs the pulling teeth feel of going to a hub to make rounds of PC talks with everyone. Those short chats were so well done, and contributed so much to both the characters and the joy of playing a video-game, it was amazing. Easily the best thing in Andromeda. Wait, no, Reyes. Or the ending. Or the jetpacks/Nomad upgrades to get around easily... anyway. I love Andromeda to bits.
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Post by wickedcool on May 31, 2017 12:00:23 GMT
Its sad that
A-we would want to return to dao linear areas. Im older than 90+% of you and im sorry but da4 failure wasn't open world it was the lack of imagination and maybe limitations of 360/ps3
B-that Zelda on a Nintendo system did it better.
Da4 better blow the doors off of anything that zelda did
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2017 12:07:54 GMT
Its sad that A-we would want to return to dao linear areas. Im older than 90+% of you and im sorry but da4 failure wasn't open world it was the lack of imagination and maybe limitations of 360/ps3 B-that Zelda on a Nintendo system did it better. Da4 better blow the doors off of anything that zelda did Well, for me personally, it does sight unseen, because Zelda looks like cartoons for young children to my untrained eye. I was puzzled when I saw gameplay footage during last years' video game awards night, and folks were saying it was a wildly anticipated game. I guess, I don't understand the cultural phenomenon of it.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on May 31, 2017 16:55:01 GMT
I love an open world, and I particularly enjoy it when some parts exist despite having no relevance to the story at all.
That makes the world seem more like an actual world, rather than just the setting for a specific story.
The world existed before the game started, and most of it exists for reasons entirely unrelated to the story. That's how the world should feel. Open world does that better.
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Post by ShadowAngel on May 31, 2017 16:57:18 GMT
Its sad that A-we would want to return to dao linear areas. Im older than 90+% of you and im sorry but da4 failure wasn't open world it was the lack of imagination and maybe limitations of 360/ps3 B-that Zelda on a Nintendo system did it better. Da4 better blow the doors off of anything that zelda did Specifically at your first point: there can't be anything sad about going linear over open world nor the other way around. Each have strengths and weaknesses, different focal points. It's much harder to narrow a story down in open world because you have to put something to tell in that world, you blow it up to the size of the hinterlands but only have quests that tell anything in 25% of it. Linear narrows it down, there's less areas that you need to tell a story around and you can put even more focus on the main areas as you're not having to branch out for other parts of the world. Open world takes time to make, much more than a linear world does, and because if that, linear games will have the better story most of the time. So one really could blame open world being the issue, but it is one that can be resolved as others have done it. Biowares issue is they're new to this when they e been pretty strict to linear games, that's their bread and butter, instead they're going through learning curves to something foreign to them. Open world on the other hand gives the player the choice to explore further, it dramatically increases play time as well if you're a completionist as much more content is put into those games, however the one possible flaw is the fetch quests or quests with little to no relevance, they're pretty much filler at that point and it's one issue many open world style games have. It goes in hand with open world taking longer to make as once it's bigger, you have to think of more things to put in it, and I'd say bioware either couldn't think of anything more or they needed more time, issue still stands that it had a bunch of lackluster filler with no relevance to the story though. I also don't see how the console limitations are an issue, they don't restrict the story or make writers make up bad characters or contradictions to the franchise. It also plays no part in the devs making it a hack and slash combat game over what origins offered. My own issues are essentially design choices, not issues caused by the console but by the developer making the change themselves. id love to go back to a dragon age origins if it means better story and characters, tresspasser was also great at showing what going back to a linear game could do. If bioware are sticks to going open world, they need to add actual content that matters, limit the back and forth traveling and remove the exploration aspect cause DA has never been about exploration, I love Andromeda for it because that's the focus of that franchise, not so much with dragon age.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2017 18:57:17 GMT
Its sad that A-we would want to return to dao linear areas. Im older than 90+% of you and im sorry but da4 failure wasn't open world it was the lack of imagination and maybe limitations of 360/ps3 B-that Zelda on a Nintendo system did it better. Da4 better blow the doors off of anything that zelda did Well, for me personally, it does sight unseen, because Zelda looks like cartoons for young children to my untrained eye. I was puzzled when I saw gameplay footage during last years' video game awards night, and folks were saying it was a wildly anticipated game. I guess, I don't understand the cultural phenomenon of it. It's success is really based on nostalgia, for many people it represents their childhood and when it's somewhat of a good game internet goes wild. Personally I didn't like Zelda even when I was a child, so I'm with you on this one
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on May 31, 2017 19:23:33 GMT
Specifically at your first point: there can't be anything sad about going linear over open world nor the other way around. Each have strengths and weaknesses, different focal points. It's much harder to narrow a story down in open world because you have to put something to tell in that world, you blow it up to the size of the hinterlands but only have quests that tell anything in 25% of it. Linear narrows it down, there's less areas that you need to tell a story around and you can put even more focus on the main areas as you're not having to branch out for other parts of the world. Open world takes time to make, much more than a linear world does, and because if that, linear games will have the better story most of the time. So one really could blame open world being the issue, but it is one that can be resolved as others have done it. Biowares issue is they're new to this when they e been pretty strict to linear games, that's their bread and butter, instead they're going through learning curves to something foreign to them. Open world on the other hand gives the player the choice to explore further, it dramatically increases play time as well if you're a completionist as much more content is put into those games, however the one possible flaw is the fetch quests or quests with little to no relevance, they're pretty much filler at that point and it's one issue many open world style games have. It goes in hand with open world taking longer to make as once it's bigger, you have to think of more things to put in it, and I'd say bioware either couldn't think of anything more or they needed more time, issue still stands that it had a bunch of lackluster filler with no relevance to the story though. I also don't see how the console limitations are an issue, they don't restrict the story or make writers make up bad characters or contradictions to the franchise. It also plays no part in the devs making it a hack and slash combat game over what origins offered. My own issues are essentially design choices, not issues caused by the console but by the developer making the change themselves. id love to go back to a dragon age origins if it means better story and characters, tresspasser was also great at showing what going back to a linear game could do. If bioware are sticks to going open world, they need to add actual content that matters, limit the back and forth traveling and remove the exploration aspect cause DA has never been about exploration, I love Andromeda for it because that's the focus of that franchise, not so much with dragon age. As I see it, BioWare made an absolutely brilliant CRPG 20 years ago with Baldur's Gate, but since then have often failed to build on that success. BG was an amazing game, one of my top 5 all-time. There's exploration, lots of side-content, a main quest that isn't shoved down your throat, and fun mechanics. BG2 was very good, but lost some of what made BG great by trying to tell a tighter story. Specifically, it lost the exploration and made the main quest too prominent. NWN was a spectacular achievement. Brilliant game. Lots of good innovations there which BioWare has completely ignored since. BioWare's best blank-slate protagonist, BioWare's best UI, and BioWare's best combat animations. KotOR was basically a smaller version of NWN with a far worse UI. It suffers a bit because it claims to have full party control, but it doesn't. Relies too heavily on set-pieces and cinematics to tell the story, and the level design is often quite corridor-y. It does the blank-slate protagonist really well, but the game is far too small overall. KotOR was also the first BioWare game I ever finished (I later went back and finished NWN). Jade Empire was a mistake. By far my least favourite BioWare game to that point. Until... Mass Effect's combat system was terrific. It took traditional stat-driven RPG combat and put it in a shooter interface. I loved it. And the uncharted worlds allowed exploration on a scale not seen since BG. However, the game simply lacked roleplaying. The voiced protagonist with paraphrased dialogue options was a travesty, and we had far too little freedom to play Shepard as we saw fit. While I acknowledge that ME did some things well, and I did really enjoy driving the Mako, overall it wasn't a good game. It looked particularly bad in direct contrast with NWN, which I finished immediately before playing ME. DAO was a stunning return to form. It had BioWare's first proper party-based combat since BG2, mountains of content, and plenty of roleplaying opportunities. It had the same limited exploration problem BG2 & KotOR had, but with the unexpected appearance of exploration content in ME, I figured we'd see that appear in a sequel. DAO also came with a full modding toolset (BioWare's first since NWN), which allowed players to customise gameplay to suit their preferences. I personally used it to undo the spell nerfs from patch 2 and correct what I thought were some unfortunate design choices. Being moddable made the game even better. It would have been better with more symmetrical combat mechanics, though. ME2 was a travesty. It took the good parts of ME and made them worse (removing stat-based accuracy) or removed them entirely (exploration), and then took the worst parts (the rigid character design and voice-over) and made them even worse by adding the abhorrent interrupt system and by making the paraphrases even harder to parse by not following the previously established definitions for what Paragon and Renegade meant. ME2 is the worst BioWare game I have played. The only thing it did right was the hybrid combat interface, where players could choose whether to play real-time action combat or stat-driven RPG combat. DA2 was awful. It did offer one significant improvement of DAO (the Tactics system), and it was nearly as moddable as DAO, but it followed the ME design of a set protagonist with restrictive voice-over, and the linear plot that somehow didn't have a plot-hook just made the game dull. The wildly asymmetrical combat mechanics and idiotic approach to difficulty settings only made it worse. I did like the overall plot structure and unreliable narrator (terrific for headcanon), and the use of day-night differences was clever. DA2 did have BioWare's worst level design, though. ME3 was everything I didn't like about ME2, and it relied even more heavily on non-interactive cinematics, but there was one thing that made me like it more. I liked the endings. Those were good. The rest of the game was crap, though. DAI did a ton of things right, and surprised me by doing so. Inquisition managed to take the optional action-OR-rpg combat option from the ME trilogy (the only thing I liked in all 3 ME games) and make it work. It also gave us back a blank-slate protagonist, exploration, and is the only time a voiced protagonist has worked AT ALL in a BioWare game. We lost the Tactics system from DA2, but we still had full-party control for micromanagement. In a way, Inquisition is the closest BioWare has managed to get to Baldur's Gate since the original came out 16 years earlier. It could use a better set of combat mechanics, and I'm disappointed in how it handles friendly fire, but overall I love it. I haven't played Andromeda (nor am I likely to, given that it doesn't contain the one good feature that persisted across all 3 games of the trilogy, the option to avoid action combat). So when DA4 comes, I would like a main quest that we need to discover rather than one that is handed to us (as in BG and DA2), a blank-slate protagonist (as in NWN, KotOR, and DAI), full-party control of stat-driven RPG combat (as in BG, BG2, DAO, and DAI), exploration (as in BG, ME, and DAI), and hopefully a decent UI (as in NWN).
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2017 19:32:28 GMT
Specifically at your first point: there can't be anything sad about going linear over open world nor the other way around. Each have strengths and weaknesses, different focal points. It's much harder to narrow a story down in open world because you have to put something to tell in that world, you blow it up to the size of the hinterlands but only have quests that tell anything in 25% of it. Linear narrows it down, there's less areas that you need to tell a story around and you can put even more focus on the main areas as you're not having to branch out for other parts of the world. Open world takes time to make, much more than a linear world does, and because if that, linear games will have the better story most of the time. So one really could blame open world being the issue, but it is one that can be resolved as others have done it. Biowares issue is they're new to this when they e been pretty strict to linear games, that's their bread and butter, instead they're going through learning curves to something foreign to them. Open world on the other hand gives the player the choice to explore further, it dramatically increases play time as well if you're a completionist as much more content is put into those games, however the one possible flaw is the fetch quests or quests with little to no relevance, they're pretty much filler at that point and it's one issue many open world style games have. It goes in hand with open world taking longer to make as once it's bigger, you have to think of more things to put in it, and I'd say bioware either couldn't think of anything more or they needed more time, issue still stands that it had a bunch of lackluster filler with no relevance to the story though. I also don't see how the console limitations are an issue, they don't restrict the story or make writers make up bad characters or contradictions to the franchise. It also plays no part in the devs making it a hack and slash combat game over what origins offered. My own issues are essentially design choices, not issues caused by the console but by the developer making the change themselves. id love to go back to a dragon age origins if it means better story and characters, tresspasser was also great at showing what going back to a linear game could do. If bioware are sticks to going open world, they need to add actual content that matters, limit the back and forth traveling and remove the exploration aspect cause DA has never been about exploration, I love Andromeda for it because that's the focus of that franchise, not so much with dragon age. ME2 was a travestyThis is just wrong
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Post by Catilina on May 31, 2017 19:34:55 GMT
Just as DA2 was awful and DAI was the best...
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2017 19:37:41 GMT
Just as DA2 was awful and DAI was the best... Well DA2 is pretty good but it's still my least favourite DA game
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on May 31, 2017 20:46:58 GMT
Just as DA2 was awful and DAI was the best... DAO was probably better than DAI. But DA2 and ME2 were both just awful. The interrupts alone are enough to make ME2 relentlessly unfun to play. And I didn't even mention that horrendous ammo mechanic.
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Post by dutchsghost7 on Jun 1, 2017 3:56:39 GMT
Hope they continue with the open world. Inquisition is the best designed world in gaming with how they let lore and even current events shape it. Just walking through those huge areas was enough to tell the story of the ages and put most games to shame. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH you're joking write? DAI openworld was dead and static. I think you really meant to say Witcher 3 which actually felt like the best designed world in gaming because it wasn't static and things actually happened!
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Post by Kabraxal on Jun 1, 2017 5:03:22 GMT
Its sad that A-we would want to return to dao linear areas. Im older than 90+% of you and im sorry but da4 failure wasn't open world it was the lack of imagination and maybe limitations of 360/ps3 B-that Zelda on a Nintendo system did it better. Da4 better blow the doors off of anything that zelda did Blow the doors off Zelda? You mean a bland world with walking cliches, the same enemy mobs, awful combat, shallow dungeons and shrines... I could go on. BotW was absolutely terrible. Its name is the inly reason it gets oraised, just like the pathetic Skyward Sword. Why couldn't people go gaga over ALBW? This year has really opened my eye to how so many have really forgiving biases for other devs but Bioware is slaughtered. Both Atlus and Nintendo got off, not just easy, but just off with mind numbing praise for pretty bad games. I just don't get it.
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Post by wickedcool on Jun 1, 2017 11:57:20 GMT
So if you are saying it's not technology that limited quests in the hinterlands then its a combination of writers and the creative team
I see the 360/PS3 limiting what they could do and I have evidence to Prove it
Witcher 3 ceo marcin iwinski was quoted game would be impossible . Basically it would have been a smaller world with awful loading times
Dai/ea/bioware got greedy and in my opinion it hurt dai. Dai was limited due in some part to those gaming engines. I think that was why npcs etc were not as detailed and probably why enemies had to still pop into the screen
Skyrim remastered. Skyrim on pc looked almost exaclty like the 360 version and its clear how an old game with a better engine looks now. Even the mods are much better
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Post by Ean'Harel on Jun 1, 2017 11:57:31 GMT
I quite like the semi-open world in DA:I. Is it perfect? No, far from it. Quests in particular (and world-building, to an extent) rely too heavily on codex entries, making them feel very detached and also removing all possibilities of actual roleplay, which are already poor in this game (where's my evil option so I can feel smug about choosing the nice one? At the very least I should be able to *sell* the wedding ring back to the widow in Hinterlands). But that could be improved upon without removing the open world.
I didn't spend much time running back and forth -- the progression can actually be quite linear, but I suppose you have to get lucky with where you go first! The Exalted Plains were confusing though. Such a weird map. Overall there's a good variety of areas, even considering we have three deserts; they were quite different in style (and yes, I enjoyed riding through the Hissing Wastes; I suspect that puts me in the minority).
Overall, the areas are gorgeous. No matter how often Dorian complains about being sea-sick, I'll wander on the Storm Coast and listen to the waves crashing on the rocks. They really need to improve the maps, though -- including info about elevation, proper roads, etc. The Forbidden Oasis is a navigation nightmare because of this. Oh, and if I were to have my way: no more stupid jump puzzles. I want to play a RPG, not a platform game.
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Post by wright1978 on Jun 1, 2017 13:02:55 GMT
Been playing older RPG's it really made me nostalgic and yearning for RPG's had smaller more contained zones. These vast Open World segments to me just seems to add grind to the experience, detracting from the story material
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Jun 1, 2017 15:41:00 GMT
Been playing older RPG's it really made me nostalgic and yearning for RPG's had smaller more contained zones. These vast Open World segments to me just seems to add grind to the experience, detracting from the story material My recollection is that older RPGs were bigger and more open. I'm thinking of Bard's Tale 2 and Might & Magic and Questron and Wasteland and all the Ultima games. What older RPGs were smaller?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2017 15:48:15 GMT
Been playing older RPG's it really made me nostalgic and yearning for RPG's had smaller more contained zones. These vast Open World segments to me just seems to add grind to the experience, detracting from the story material My recollection is that older RPGs were bigger and more open. I'm thinking of Bard's Tale 2 and Might & Magic and Questron and Wasteland and all the Ultima games. What older RPGs were smaller? I think back, I feel that BG2, JE, KOTOR-s and NWN2 all felt much tighter and cleaner than Inquisition, and more interesting. But then, again, it could that was not because they were smaller per se, but because it was far easier to get around, and you memorized them basically to play with maximum efficiency, minimum frustration, because there was simply nothing else to play and you replayed them ten times. Maybe if there is nothing coming, on the third or fourth run, Onquisition would start feeling just like that too. But first time, ye gods. EDIT: and, yes, yes, I am aware that you personally love going in circles around the maps discovering wee things.
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Post by chronodragoon on Jun 1, 2017 17:08:41 GMT
Blow the doors off Zelda? You mean a bland world with walking cliches, the same enemy mobs, awful combat, shallow dungeons and shrines... I could go on. BotW was absolutely terrible. Its name is the inly reason it gets oraised, just like the pathetic Skyward Sword. Why couldn't people go gaga over ALBW? This year has really opened my eye to how so many have really forgiving biases for other devs but Bioware is slaughtered. Both Atlus and Nintendo got off, not just easy, but just off with mind numbing praise for pretty bad games. I just don't get it. You mean Persona 5? Did you like 3 and 4? I'm about 60 hours in and find it to be a worthy sequel to those games.
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Post by Kabraxal on Jun 1, 2017 18:02:52 GMT
Blow the doors off Zelda? You mean a bland world with walking cliches, the same enemy mobs, awful combat, shallow dungeons and shrines... I could go on. BotW was absolutely terrible. Its name is the inly reason it gets oraised, just like the pathetic Skyward Sword. Why couldn't people go gaga over ALBW? This year has really opened my eye to how so many have really forgiving biases for other devs but Bioware is slaughtered. Both Atlus and Nintendo got off, not just easy, but just off with mind numbing praise for pretty bad games. I just don't get it. You mean Persona 5? Did you like 3 and 4? I'm about 60 hours in and find it to be a worthy sequel to those games. Loved 3 and 4. I hate the dungeons, characters, and writing in P5. It was extremely disappointing. It wasn't as awful as Breath of the Wild, but the reception of the game by others confuses me just as mych since the common complaints (outside of animations, though Zelda's graphics are terrible) against Andromeda are easier to apply to both BotW and P5. I have seen people rip into Andromeda for the bland open world of "filler" only to turn around an open world far worse in every way. I have facepalmed when someone complains about the dialogue and characters in ME:A and then uses P5 to "show you how it's done"...... no, just no.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2017 18:04:27 GMT
Modern day RPGs will be open world. All of them
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Sylvius the Mad
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Jun 1, 2017 19:18:48 GMT
I think back, I feel that BG2, JE, KOTOR-s and NWN2 all felt much tighter and cleaner than Inquisition, and more interesting. But then, again, it could that was not because they were smaller per se, but because it was far easier to get around, and you memorized them basically to play with maximum efficiency, minimum frustration, because there was simply nothing else to play and you replayed them ten times. Maybe if there is nothing coming, on the third or fourth run, Onquisition would start feeling just like that too. But first time, ye gods. EDIT: and, yes, yes, I am aware that you personally love going in circles around the maps discovering wee things. I just think of anything released this century as modern. Older RPGs are from the 70s and 80s. The open world was a staple of western RPGs throughout the 1980s. That's the direction I'd like to see the industry go. NWN2, which you mention, actually has some terrible world design if you're looking for coherence. Right at the start, everyone tells you not to take the High Road to Neverwinter, because it isn't safe. The problem is, it doesn't even exist. There is no road to Neverwinter. The story wants you to take a boat, so the boat is all there is. That's a problem. That's a problem the open world solves.
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luketrevelyan
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Post by luketrevelyan on Jun 1, 2017 19:45:48 GMT
I think open world has a place but it has to actually serve the story and not detract from it. With DAI it seemed like it was only there because Skyrim was successful (and maybe due to DA2 criticism as well). At least in MEA the open world made more sense.
Just because a movie can be 3 hours doesn't mean it should be. There is a reason deleted scenes exist and get cut out. If you leave unnecessary and low quality things in games, it will detract from the experience whether it is optional or not.
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llandwynwyn
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Post by llandwynwyn on Jun 2, 2017 14:46:06 GMT
I don't mind DA having an OW, but they need to listen to fans and do it right. Otherwise, forget it. DAI was forgiven because it was the "first", the next one won't be spared after MEA and TW3.
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midnight tea
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Post by midnight tea on Jun 3, 2017 23:44:15 GMT
So this is just something I noticed, and it's complete speculation at best. But it appears one of the Edmonton jobs is advertising 'experience with open-world games an asset'. I was kind of hoping that Bioware was going to retreat back away from open world for the next DA4 - but possibly not if having people on staff with that experience is an asset. However, this could be an advert for the New IP which I believe Edmonton is providing some support on? Either way, one of the upcoming games looks to be open-world at least... shame. Link to Job DescriptionHaving experience with "open world" doesn't necessarily means that they'd be building miles-long zones. Such experience likely is valuable even if they choose to build smaller areas that aren't just a one-way tunnel. I think open world has a place but it has to actually serve the story and not detract from it. With DAI it seemed like it was only there because Skyrim was successful (and maybe due to DA2 criticism as well). At least in MEA the open world made more sense. Just because a movie can be 3 hours doesn't mean it should be. There is a reason deleted scenes exist and get cut out. If you leave unnecessary and low quality things in games, it will detract from the experience whether it is optional or not. If you don't like an open world - fine, but calling a portion of the game you don't enjoy 'low quality or unnecessary' is just plain unfair. For some people such areas DO make sense: they expand the world, and don't make it feel like it only exists to serve the story. They also make the story a tad more realistic - it's not just rushing along the crit path. The games aren't exactly movies after all. It's also unfair to say that some of this stuff is in the game "only because of Skyrim". DAO had open zones as well - smaller, of course, and actually emptier, but open zones that are free to explore and pick up quests or decide their order. It's quite apparent that DA team liked the idea of open world for a while now - and now that they have proper tools and computing power to create richer, wider environments, they... actually use them. That doesn't mean that they won't be addressing issues people have or trying new approaches - but I'm fairly sure that open zones, bigger or smaller, are here to stay.
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