Sylvius the Mad
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Jun 5, 2017 0:57:57 GMT
Such experience likely is valuable even if they choose to build smaller areas that aren't just a one-way tunnel. New! Two-way Tunnels!
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Post by Warrick on Jun 5, 2017 12:11:29 GMT
I think the open world in DA:I suffered for two reasons. It wasn't explained very well to players and there wasn't a clear enough reason to visit it.
Inquisition starts with a cutscene and then a cutscene-rich corridor type level. Then you're in Haven, a fairly small hub. That's the game structure players have assumed by then. It sets expectations. Then, you're let loose in the immensity of the Hinterlands, but the game didn't prepare you for it. It didn't teach you that it is within the rules of the game to ignore much of the content in an area.
If you read about Portal level design, they added two levels to introduce energy balls. Initially, a level introduced them along with other things at the same time. User feedback showed players got frustrated. The point is you have to teach players the rules. How they're supposed to play it.
As for the second reason - People might say this is the same structure as Mass Effect 1 (Eden Prime -> Normandy -> Citadel). But you have a clear main plot objective (the Council hearing) and you bump into stuff on your way there. That's an important difference in terms of engaging the player to walk through the level. Same for Oblivion (go to Chorrol to give the amulet to Jauffre) and Skyrim (go to Whiterun to warn the Jarl about the dragon). Even GTA V has you driving behind Lamar to the dealership at the beginning, just to show you around LS. The open world is introduced as you go through it doing something specific.
I'd say the DA:I structure is more similar to DA2 (Lothering -> Courtyard -> Kirkwall). In fact, Kirkwall in Act 1 suffered from the same problem as the Hinterlands. They just dump you there with no clear objective, but a diffuse "get money" or "get influence". In short, "grind".
The extra areas in DA:I have the same problem. They're just influence farms. That's not engaging.
Conclusion: open world can be good. But they have to research more about what makes open world games good.
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Post by midnight tea on Jun 5, 2017 12:41:56 GMT
Such experience likely is valuable even if they choose to build smaller areas that aren't just a one-way tunnel. New! Two-way Tunnels! THREE way tunnels!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2017 12:56:02 GMT
I am doing the second run of Inquisition, and I have just seen the moment where the marriage of the OW and the main story fell apart. Crestwood. That's where the main story-line became relegated to the short conversation with an Easter egg character.
Until then, each Story instance was rather rich and engaging, the Intro, the Whispers/Justice League and the Fall of Haven. All of those had great characters and actual dialogue sin them, but from here on, it's just drags with barely any dialogues in the main plot, and the areas that do not support strong subplots with a living story, just smatterings of quests without much dialogue around them. Intro by Scout Harding, frustrating attempts to find a road when map does not draw you a road, a few diamonds, and a quickie battle to resolve Scout Harding's assignment. Judgment in the Keep if you are so lucky.
If they managed to hold together the main plot story-line after Skyhold, it would have been better.
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Post by midnight tea on Jun 5, 2017 13:09:04 GMT
I am doing the second run of Inquisition, and I have just seen the moment where the marriage of the OW and the main story fell apart. Crestwood. That's where the main story-line became relegated to the short conversation with an Easter egg character. That conversation is basically an intro to Here Lies The Abyss as well as follow-up to investigation on disappearance of Grey Wardens. It's not really that different from first travel to meet Fiona prior to Hushed Whispers. It's a small 'quiet before the storm' where tension grows and some investigative work is done. The main difference I guess that you can push it in time and focus on something else before or after the meeting... but that ain't really that different from first doing stuff in Hinterlands or visiting Fallow Mire prior to engaging with main quest. Also - nothing stops you from just ignoring other stuff and just following main story.
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Post by SofaJockey on Jun 5, 2017 13:13:47 GMT
Up to the fall of Haven, DAI was terrific.
The later acts of the critical path were weaker, somewhat remedied by Trespasser.
I have no doubt that DA4 will be open world zones again, though the 'secret sauce' of combining main and side content remains elusive.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2017 13:17:57 GMT
I am doing the second run of Inquisition, and I have just seen the moment where the marriage of the OW and the main story fell apart. Crestwood. That's where the main story-line became relegated to the short conversation with an Easter egg character. That conversation is basically an intro to Here Lies The Abyss as well as follow-up to investigation on disappearance of Grey Wardens. It's not really that different from first travel to meet Fiona prior to Hushed Whispers. It's a small 'quiet before the storm' where tension grows and some investigative work is done. The main difference I guess that you can push it in time and focus on something else before or after the meeting... but that ain't really that different from first doing stuff in Hinterlands or visiting Fallow Mire prior to engaging with main quest. Also - nothing stops you from just ignoring other stuff and just following main story. Power Points do and my character's development do (levels and specialization).
Right now, to get Samson's Backstory I need 20pp to unlock the Emprise Du Lion. I have 18 PP and I have skimmed through most of the areas that I could unlock for cheap (Storm Coast (free), Fallow Mire (8 points), Emerald Graves (8 points). Crestwood had to be unlocked (8 points). The Whispers quest costs a motherload of points (15 points)
I also mistakenly unlocked the Exalted Plains (8 points), and I'd rather not set foot there to regain the lost points, b/c Exalted Plains is the worst map in the Inquisition. I mixed it up with Emerald Graves for Samson's background quest, and there is no going back now.
Some areas, like the Storm Coast & Fallow Mire I wanted to skip all together, but I could not, because I needed materials to unlock my characters' Specialization Tree.
So, to sum up, I am now stuck 32 Power Points short of advancing the main quest. And 32 Power Points is a hell a lot of looking for roads and rifts and camps on maps I don't want to be on & I have already picked the least objectionable ones, all others are in hard to reach places or above my party level. So, this means being lost in the countryside I don't want to ever see again.
Every time you unlock a new map, you sink in 8 points that you have to regain, PLUS you need to make surplus to justify going there. The map like Emprise Du Lion and Deep Roads, with their steep costs are particularly unattractive, because you have to somehow generate 20+ power points off it, and I don't know how much power points each map potentially generate.
I wish there was a mod that doubled or tripled the power points you get or if you could convert Influence into PP.
Or, the mod that adds ROADS on the maps.
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Post by midnight tea on Jun 5, 2017 13:31:19 GMT
That conversation is basically an intro to Here Lies The Abyss as well as follow-up to investigation on disappearance of Grey Wardens. It's not really that different from first travel to meet Fiona prior to Hushed Whispers. It's a small 'quiet before the storm' where tension grows and some investigative work is done. The main difference I guess that you can push it in time and focus on something else before or after the meeting... but that ain't really that different from first doing stuff in Hinterlands or visiting Fallow Mire prior to engaging with main quest. Also - nothing stops you from just ignoring other stuff and just following main story. Power Points do and my character's development do (levels and specialization).
Right now, to get Samson's Backstory I need 20pp to unlock the Emprise Du Lion. I have 18 PP and I have skimmed through most of the areas that I could unlock for cheap (Storm Coast (free), Fallow Mire (8 points), Emerald Graves (8 points). Crestwood had to be unlocked (8 points). The Whispers quest costs a motherload of points (15 points).
I also mistakenly unlocked the Exalted Plains (8 points), and I'd rather not set foot there to regain the lost points, b/c Exalted Plains is the worst map in the Inquisition. I mixed it up with Emerald Graves for Samson's background quest, and there is no going back now.
Some areas, like the Storm Coast & Fallow Mire I wanted to skip all together, but I could not, because I needed materials to unlock my characters' Specialization Tree.
So, to sum up, I am now stuck 32 Power Points short of advancing the main quest. And 32 Power Points is a hell a lot of looking for roads and rifts and camps on maps I don't want to be on.
Every time you unlock a new map, you sink in 8 points that you have to regain, PLUS you need to make surplus to justify going there. The map like Emprise Du Lion and Deep Roads, with their steep costs are particularly unattractive, because you have to somehow generate 20+ power points off it, and I don't know how much power points each map potentially generate.
I wish there was a mod that doubled or tripled the power points you get or if you could convert Influence into PP.
It would be an issue if Power Points were insanely difficult to get. They really aren't. Even if I'm not in super-completionist mood I end up with surplus of over 100 with everything open. And if you really din't want to run around to get easy points, just install a mod that lets you buy or multiply mats and focus on requisitions. Each gives 1 power and some influence.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2017 13:52:28 GMT
Power Points do and my character's development do (levels and specialization).
Right now, to get Samson's Backstory I need 20pp to unlock the Emprise Du Lion. I have 18 PP and I have skimmed through most of the areas that I could unlock for cheap (Storm Coast (free), Fallow Mire (8 points), Emerald Graves (8 points). Crestwood had to be unlocked (8 points). The Whispers quest costs a motherload of points (15 points).
I also mistakenly unlocked the Exalted Plains (8 points), and I'd rather not set foot there to regain the lost points, b/c Exalted Plains is the worst map in the Inquisition. I mixed it up with Emerald Graves for Samson's background quest, and there is no going back now.
Some areas, like the Storm Coast & Fallow Mire I wanted to skip all together, but I could not, because I needed materials to unlock my characters' Specialization Tree.
So, to sum up, I am now stuck 32 Power Points short of advancing the main quest. And 32 Power Points is a hell a lot of looking for roads and rifts and camps on maps I don't want to be on.
Every time you unlock a new map, you sink in 8 points that you have to regain, PLUS you need to make surplus to justify going there. The map like Emprise Du Lion and Deep Roads, with their steep costs are particularly unattractive, because you have to somehow generate 20+ power points off it, and I don't know how much power points each map potentially generate.
I wish there was a mod that doubled or tripled the power points you get or if you could convert Influence into PP.
It would be an issue if Power Points were insanely difficult to get. They really aren't. Even if I'm not in super-completionist mood I end up with surplus of over 100 with everything open. And if you really din't want to run around to get easy points, just install a mod that lets you buy or multiply mats and focus on requisitions. Each gives 1 power and some influence. Well, to get them, you have to do the OW. While you said I can skip the OW, and just focus on the story. I don't want to open everything. I want to open as little as possible. To get Requisitions you have to open new maps too. So, no matter what you have to get through the Open World content. Tbh, I'd rather gather stuff in the vicinity o fthe camps I already have than look for new rifts/camps in new areas. I guess, I will try to find the mats to do the requisitions to get my 30 points.
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Post by Fredward on Jun 5, 2017 13:52:32 GMT
The top item on my wishlist is for the majority of the story to take place in Minrathous and the city just being massive and dense and intricate and glorious. Like a DA2 done right. City districts with distinct atmosphere, their own history written in the architecture. Quests that have a visible and meaningful impact on the world. Getting to know the city's players through engaging side quests. Discovering the nuances and motivations of the various factions. Getting you invested in the city, making you feel something for it's inevitable fate, love or hate or something more ambiguous it doesn't matter as long as it isn't just [game hub].
I'm not really expecting it though, sadly.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2017 13:53:21 GMT
The top item on my wishlist is for the majority of the story to take place in Minrathous and the city just being massive and dense and intricate and glorious. Like a DA2 done right. City districts with distinct atmosphere, their own history written in the architecture. Quests that have a visible and meaningful impact on the world. Getting to the city's players through engaging side quests. Discovering the nuances and motivations of the various factions. Getting you invested in the city, making you feel something for it's inevitable fate, love or hate or something more ambiguous it doesn't matter as long as it isn't just [game hub]. I'm not really expecting it though, sadly. DA2 is already done right.
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Post by midnight tea on Jun 5, 2017 14:06:04 GMT
It would be an issue if Power Points were insanely difficult to get. They really aren't. Even if I'm not in super-completionist mood I end up with surplus of over 100 with everything open. And if you really din't want to run around to get easy points, just install a mod that lets you buy or multiply mats and focus on requisitions. Each gives 1 power and some influence. Well, to get them, you have to do the OW. While you said I can skip the OW, and just focus on the story. I don't want to open everything. I want to open as little as possible. To get Requisitions you have to open new maps too. So, no matter what you have to get through the Open World content. Tbh, I'd rather gather stuff in the vicinity o fthe camps I already have than look for new rifts/camps in new areas. I guess, I will try to find the mats to do the requisitions to get my 30 points. No, you don't have to open new maps - requisitions just repeat over and over again, once one you got is done, so just stick to requisition in Hinterlands or Crestwood.
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Post by midnight tea on Jun 5, 2017 14:10:59 GMT
The top item on my wishlist is for the majority of the story to take place in Minrathous and the city just being massive and dense and intricate and glorious. Like a DA2 done right. City districts with distinct atmosphere, their own history written in the architecture. Quests that have a visible and meaningful impact on the world. Getting to the city's players through engaging side quests. Discovering the nuances and motivations of the various factions. Getting you invested in the city, making you feel something for it's inevitable fate, love or hate or something more ambiguous it doesn't matter as long as it isn't just [game hub]. I'm not really expecting it though, sadly. Well, here's some good news (it's the BW dev quoted below): One interesting thing is I am currently (finally...) plaything through The Witcher 3. While wandering around Novigrad part of me was wondering "Hmmmm, make this city a little bit bigger, keep some of the outskirts or maybe individual maps for stuff away from Kirkwall, and I wonder what it'd be like to play a DA2 along these lines with some more up to date tech to facilitate it a bit better." Just my random musing for the day have fun dissecting! ...HINT, HINT. Personally I don't think however we'd spend all/most of that time in the city. It'll likely be the main hub, but with eluvian network open, I expect that DA4 will likely look quite like Trespasser.
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Sylvius the Mad
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Jun 5, 2017 22:35:22 GMT
Now THAT sounds like a BioWare game.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Jun 5, 2017 23:02:38 GMT
That conversation is basically an intro to Here Lies The Abyss as well as follow-up to investigation on disappearance of Grey Wardens. It's not really that different from first travel to meet Fiona prior to Hushed Whispers. It's a small 'quiet before the storm' where tension grows and some investigative work is done. The main difference I guess that you can push it in time and focus on something else before or after the meeting... but that ain't really that different from first doing stuff in Hinterlands or visiting Fallow Mire prior to engaging with main quest. Also - nothing stops you from just ignoring other stuff and just following main story. Power Points do and my character's development do (levels and specialization).
Right now, to get Samson's Backstory I need 20pp to unlock the Emprise Du Lion. I have 18 PP and I have skimmed through most of the areas that I could unlock for cheap (Storm Coast (free), Fallow Mire (8 points), Emerald Graves (8 points). Crestwood had to be unlocked (8 points). The Whispers quest costs a motherload of points (15 points)
I also mistakenly unlocked the Exalted Plains (8 points), and I'd rather not set foot there to regain the lost points, b/c Exalted Plains is the worst map in the Inquisition. I mixed it up with Emerald Graves for Samson's background quest, and there is no going back now.
Some areas, like the Storm Coast & Fallow Mire I wanted to skip all together, but I could not, because I needed materials to unlock my characters' Specialization Tree.
So, to sum up, I am now stuck 32 Power Points short of advancing the main quest. And 32 Power Points is a hell a lot of looking for roads and rifts and camps on maps I don't want to be on & I have already picked the least objectionable ones, all others are in hard to reach places or above my party level. So, this means being lost in the countryside I don't want to ever see again.
Every time you unlock a new map, you sink in 8 points that you have to regain, PLUS you need to make surplus to justify going there. The map like Emprise Du Lion and Deep Roads, with their steep costs are particularly unattractive, because you have to somehow generate 20+ power points off it, and I don't know how much power points each map potentially generate.
I wish there was a mod that doubled or tripled the power points you get or if you could convert Influence into PP.
Or, the mod that adds ROADS on the maps.
yeah you need the power points that's what for me holds DAI back. I do like the game and in fact it's my favourite DA game. But it could have done without the power point system tbh because it does mean you have to do some of the side content whether you want to or not to acquire enough to progress. I can understand from a story prespective though as you are trying to build an army at the end of the da yin order to deal with Corypheus but it can be a problem if your looking to do a speed run. At least they didn't carry that through into MEA so hopefully they've learnt from that. People need to want to do side quests because they'er interesting not because they're being forced into it. I'm almost at the end of my current DAI run with my Solana as I jus tstarted the Jaws of Hakkon DLC and I'm also part way through the Descent one as well my next main story quest is What Pride has Wrought or what I call the Temple of Mythal quest. So not to far to go. Got to admit I think I'm going to feel very sorry for my Solana come the end. I've only got 2 dragons left to kill as well in the main game
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Post by tacsear on Jun 29, 2017 23:14:01 GMT
After playing Horizon Zero Dawn, my hopes for good open worlds have been restored and if most of the missions won't be text based in DA4, I'm up for it. Inquisition's motto was "Lead them or fall" but it should've been "Read them or fall".
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Post by Kantr on Jul 3, 2017 18:50:24 GMT
It's kind of a cliche to mention The Witcher 3 but that was a great open world. If they make it all just one zone with lots to do and has a city in it that would be great. Rather than creating many zones ranging in size and content they can just focus all their resources on this one specific area. After all unlike Mass Effect we're not going to be visiting other planets.
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Post by duckley on Jul 3, 2017 19:45:57 GMT
Open world is fine. I enjoyed all components of the game. I understand some people didn't like the collection and the go-fetch quests, but you have the option to skip them - while those of us who like those elements, can do them to our hearts content! The improvements I would make are to the CC (more appropriate hairstyles for women) and larger font option - to make the lore easier for us older players to read.
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Post by mmoblitz on Jul 4, 2017 14:45:14 GMT
If they do it like Andromeda, with a strong story in each area, and 5 instead of 10 areas, and dust way less filler & cut back on companion overload, I'll be okay with it. IF they do it like Andromeda, I will never touch it. To me the writing was horrid. It appears that Bioware likes to create the open world and then create to story to fill it instead of creating the story first then create the world to fit the story. They are dead set on it being an open world and the story suffers for it. I loved the stories and characters of the previous games in DA and ME, but as soon as they introduced open worlds, the stories and characters took a back seat. Write the damn story first and then shape the world to it. I think it will be a much better and successful game. If the story calls for an open world, then so be it. At least the characters and story shouldn't suffer as much if the world is shaped to the story. To me, that isn't what Bioware is doing with their open world games.
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Post by themikefest on Jul 4, 2017 15:02:44 GMT
Well, to get them, you have to do the OW. While you said I can skip the OW, and just focus on the story. I don't want to open everything. I want to open as little as possible. To get Requisitions you have to open new maps too. So, no matter what you have to get through the Open World content. Tbh, I'd rather gather stuff in the vicinity o fthe camps I already have than look for new rifts/camps in new areas. I guess, I will try to find the mats to do the requisitions to get my 30 points. I just did a speedrun. I only visited Hinterlands, Western Approach and Crestwood. Closing rifts and finding camps is the easiest way to get power points.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2017 15:29:10 GMT
Well, to get them, you have to do the OW. While you said I can skip the OW, and just focus on the story. I don't want to open everything. I want to open as little as possible. To get Requisitions you have to open new maps too. So, no matter what you have to get through the Open World content. Tbh, I'd rather gather stuff in the vicinity o fthe camps I already have than look for new rifts/camps in new areas. I guess, I will try to find the mats to do the requisitions to get my 30 points. I just did a speedrun. I only visited Hinterlands, Western Approach and Crestwood. Closing rifts and finding camps is the easiest way to get power points. I am kindda surprised at a month old necro, but tbh, I can't bring myself to care. I toyed with going to try to see the dwarven DLC there, but just... can't see all these points go to check it out, and get into a dead end again with no points. I just gave up on DA3. Playing MEAMP for now. I dunno, I just really don't feel attracted to DA3. It's, well, boring, and save for Dorian, so empty of feels.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2017 15:31:08 GMT
If they do it like Andromeda, with a strong story in each area, and 5 instead of 10 areas, and dust way less filler & cut back on companion overload, I'll be okay with it. IF they do it like Andromeda, I will never touch it. To me the writing was horrid. It appears that Bioware likes to create the open world and then create to story to fill it instead of creating the story first then create the world to fit the story. They are dead set on it being an open world and the story suffers for it. I loved the stories and characters of the previous games in DA and ME, but as soon as they introduced open worlds, the stories and characters took a back seat. Write the damn story first and then shape the world to it. I think it will be a much better and successful game. If the story calls for an open world, then so be it. At least the characters and story shouldn't suffer as much if the world is shaped to the story. To me, that isn't what Bioware is doing with their open world games. I love the writing in Andromeda, very fun and lively. Reminds me JE. So, I disagree with your assessment, etc. Don't play it, seriously, who cares... just a game.
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Post by dreman999 on Jul 4, 2017 16:21:33 GMT
Dragon age has always had hub areas which were kind of open world in their own right. Open world is not the problem, the real question is what they do with it. If they will have quality quests in them, a DAI style world is a good idea I feel as if DA section is becoming like MEA, please don't I already have enough toxicity in my life please don't make this fandom another MEA not really.
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Post by tacsear on Jul 4, 2017 18:43:23 GMT
Dragon age has always had hub areas which were kind of open world in their own right. Open world is not the problem, the real question is what they do with it. If they will have quality quests in them, a DAI style world is a good idea I feel as if DA section is becoming like MEA, please don't I already have enough toxicity in my life please don't make this fandom another MEA not really. Yes really
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Post by dreman999 on Jul 4, 2017 19:49:56 GMT
seriously. No. Dao was a box area of hut in denerum, a larger then normal camp ground, and one larger area of high class wholes in the wall and a smaller low class areas with 2 holes in the wall. Sorry but not really.
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