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Post by midnight tea on Jul 4, 2017 19:30:05 GMT
The player won't be able to kill Solas. He can only be banished Considering that he himself hints that - even if he manages to realize his plans - his punishment will be eternal, that's a possibility. Add to that the fact that not even a bunch of overpowered Evanuris managed to kill Mythal for realsies - and whatever Solas is, he seems to be very much like them. It was same with Forbidden Ones - Vir Dirthara codex mentions them being exiled, rather than killed, possibly because the latter is really hard when it comes to ancient creatures.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 4, 2017 20:10:51 GMT
Hmmm... I've skimmed through DA wiki page I've had open on Forbidden Ones, and one thing pulled my attention. "In each game, one of the Forbidden Ones had appeared as an optional boss, being defeated by the protagonist." Well... three Forbidden ones were defeated, from four that we know of. That leaves the Formless One (most ominous-sounding) for DA4 I guess? I don't really think that suggests there will only be 4 installments of DA, but what if it's some sort of countdown towards something?
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 4, 2017 21:48:46 GMT
I think the Forbidden Ones were exiled by proxy not because they couldn't be killed (although that may also be true). They had already cast aside their form to flee where the Earth could not reach and presumably the Evanuris were reluctant to go after them (or couldn't go after them) so essentially said "good riddance and don't come back". I get the sense that whilst it was easy for spirits to pass into the unchanging world before the Veil, it was not so easy for those on the material side of the Veil to pass back the other way without either abandoning their material form or shielding themselves in some way. The only one of the Evanuris for whom this may not have applied was Falon'Din who is credited with guiding those who wished travel the Fade, although in view of the above, this may only have been spiritually rather than physically.
We probably will meet up with the Formless One but not necessarily in a such a direct manner as the others. The codex from the Vir Dirthara says that they have "familiarity with shape", which is what allows the others we have met, particularly Imshael, to have a form without needing to possess anyone, but it sounds as though the Formless One may actually choose not to adopt a shape but possibly manifest as a malign presence that you can sense but not see. That would be really creepy.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 4, 2017 22:01:51 GMT
What makes the Order of Fiery Promise interesting is not simply they are a doomsday cult but also that they went around destroying the astrariums at one time because they believed they held together the Veil and removing the Veil would destroy the world. Now that is too much of a coincidence bearing in mind what Solas tells us AND those strange artefacts that he told us strengthened the Veil looked very similar in appearance to astrariums. Now that whole thing could be just a gigantic red herring on the part of the writers but it will be somewhat disappointing if it is.
Where did they get that idea about the Veil if not from Solas? Everyone else believed that the Veil had always existed as a divide between the Fade and Thedas. Mind you Drakon also had a vision about the Veil being torn open by the Maker as a prelude to his ultimate return. I assumed that was why they thought we were the Herald of Andraste, even if it didn't seem to be the act of the Maker in making the Breach. No suggestion by Drakon that anyone else needed to tear open the Veil on behalf of the Maker.
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Post by arvaarad on Jul 4, 2017 23:31:58 GMT
The Order of Fiery Promise will come to prominence once more; we'll find out that Solas is encouraging/manipulating them. The Order of Fiery Promise conspiracy theory goes even deeper than that... They have a strange obsession with the Seekers of Truth and, to a lesser extent, the Templar Order and Chantry. They are known to style themselves in raiments and armour belonging to various chantry organizations.Well guess who shows up on the edges of the final Trespasser monologue, only visible through flycam? (credit to Biofan for originally finding this area)That's right, shifty-looking fellows in templar garb. Now, most likely they're there because of some abandoned Trespasser plotline involving the templars. But consider a more entertaining option: they're excited Solas groupies from the Order of Fiery Promise. ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/RebJidSPcxyF0U0Rr0uW.png)
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Jul 5, 2017 0:32:13 GMT
I figure it would be all too easy for Solas to promise Promisers that the new world he intends to bring is a paradise, complete with immortality and all that. Although how an immortal society could prevent a new set of Evanuris from rising, I'm not sure. That is one of the nice things about mortality: everyone, even the worst people, has an expiry date.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 5, 2017 0:48:36 GMT
I figure it would be all too easy for Solas to promise Promisers that the new world he intends to bring is a paradise, complete with immortality and all that. Although how an immortal society could prevent a new set of Evanuris from rising, I'm not sure. There's a little problem with that - the Promisers are actually are a fanatical splinter of the Chantry. I'm not sure they'd be happy with Solas - the elvhen god - offering them the Paradise. ... Ironically, I think Solas might have thought the same. Then Tevinter rose, enslaved people, broke open the Fade and released the Blight, among other awful things. Lack of immortality did little to prevent this, so that doesn't seem to be the crux of the issue - what people are doing when they accumulate enough power or conviction to go with their plans is.
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Jul 5, 2017 1:09:01 GMT
I figure it would be all too easy for Solas to promise Promisers that the new world he intends to bring is a paradise, complete with immortality and all that. Although how an immortal society could prevent a new set of Evanuris from rising, I'm not sure. There's a little problem with that - the Promisers are actually are a fanatical splinter of the Chantry. I'm not sure they'd be happy with Solas - the elvhen god - offering them the Paradise. ... Ironically, I think Solas perhaps thought the same. Then Tevinter rose, enslaved people, broke open the Fade and released the Blight, among other awful things. Lack of immortality did little to prevent this, so that's doesn't seem to be the crux of the issue - what people are doing when they accumulate enough power or conviction to go with their plans is. The Chantry also says the Maker made the Veil, but we know that Solas did. We also know Solas can turn on the charisma if he feels so inclined, and that he is quite comfortable with lying by omission if he has to. And when you speak to him in the mountains after you wake up and everyone sings "The Dawn Will Come," he encourages the Inquisitor to play up the Herald of Andraste/divinely chosen one thing in any of the dialogue options. We know he can be quite ruthless, too. If having the Promisers on his side provided him some sort of advantage that we don't see yet, I'm sure he'd be capable of getting them to join him. I don't think it's impossible that he could convince them that he's a prophet of the Maker, if not the Maker himself - especially if he does it through their dreams, and not in person. In the Fade he could appear as anything; who knows, with his magical abilities, maybe he could disguise himself as human in the waking world, too. And this is the speculation thread, so I'm speculating.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 5, 2017 1:23:59 GMT
There's a little problem with that - the Promisers are actually are a fanatical splinter of the Chantry. I'm not sure they'd be happy with Solas - the elvhen god - offering them the Paradise. ... Ironically, I think Solas perhaps thought the same. Then Tevinter rose, enslaved people, broke open the Fade and released the Blight, among other awful things. Lack of immortality did little to prevent this, so that's doesn't seem to be the crux of the issue - what people are doing when they accumulate enough power or conviction to go with their plans is. The Chantry also says the Maker made the Veil, but we know that Solas did. We also know Solas can turn on the charisma if he feels so inclined, and that he is quite comfortable with lying by omission if he has to. And when you speak to him in the mountains after you wake up and everyone sings "The Dawn Will Come," he encourages the Inquisitor to play up on the Herald of Andraste/divinely chosen one thing in any of the dialogue options. We know he can be quite ruthless, too. If having the Promisers on his side provided him some sort of advantage that we don't see yet, I'm sure he'd be capable of getting them on side. I don't think it's impossible that he could convince them that he's a prophet of the Maker, if not the Maker himself - especially if he does it through their dreams, and not in person. In the Fade he could appear as anything; who knows, with his magical abilities, maybe he could disguise himself as human in the waking world, too. Faith doesn't really work like that. Many of those who believe wholeheartedly won't be like "Oh, so the Veil was created by elvhen god? Alrighty then!". Don't we have enough of proof of that whenever some element of religion turns out to be not what people think or put to question in real life? If anything, they'd likely deem Solas Sata... I mean, a demon that wants to sway them. Remember that it's implied in Trespasser epilogue that not all believed even Inquisitor about whatever they chose to reveal about their journey through eluvians, and Inquisitor is currently Thedas' biggest hero and thought by many to be literal godsend. Not to mention that not even Dalish elves really wanted to believe Solas when he approached them - so the possibility a crazed Andrastian cult will believe him instead seems far-fetched. Also - Solas impersonating Maker or saying that he's his prophet goes beyond lying by omission. World-destroying plans or not, I don't think he'd he willing to lie for... what? To gain a small sect of Chantry zealots that couldn't do anything until Lucius literally let them decimate Seekers, with help of Envy/Corypheus? We have no proof whatsoever that Promisers are special or hold any sort of secret knowledge, or in fact even have anything like powers Seekers have. They're just a very determined doomsday cult. That, and I'm fairly sure Promisers are mostly humans. We have no proof so far that Solas is interested with those. Aren't we all? ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/RebJidSPcxyF0U0Rr0uW.png) But speculating doesn't mean that things we speculate about can't be put to test.
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Jul 5, 2017 2:43:38 GMT
Aren't we all? ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/RebJidSPcxyF0U0Rr0uW.png) But speculating doesn't mean that things we speculate about can't be put to test. Sure, but even you have said we're all going on very little information - we don't know what Solas' plan actually is. He may well want to create chaos to throw people off whatever he's working on, exactly like Corypheus did. His story does parallel Corypheus', as far as we have seen to this point. One way to stir up chaos among the humans / their Chantry, who are likely going to be a major opponent to his plans, is by feeding a crazy cult's fanatical beliefs and sending them out into the world. Speculation is kind of like throwing darts blind at a target right now. It's fun, but hard to argue that one person's idea is more plausible than another's.
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Jul 5, 2017 2:55:11 GMT
We know solas arranged things so that corypheus's agents would find his orb to get Cory to unlock it for him. It's reasonable to think he will manipulate other parties to get things he wants without them knowing he's behind anything. So whether the Order of fiery promise would want to help Solas or not isn't necessarily relevant to whether or not they will.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 5, 2017 3:22:20 GMT
Aren't we all? ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/RebJidSPcxyF0U0Rr0uW.png) But speculating doesn't mean that things we speculate about can't be put to test. Sure, but even you have said we're all going on very little information - we don't know what Solas' plan actually is. He may well want to create chaos to throw people off whatever he's working on, exactly like Corypheus did. His story does parallel Corypheus', as far as we have seen to this point. One way to stir up chaos among the humans / their Chantry, who are likely going to be a major opponent to his plans, is by feeding a crazy cult's fanatical beliefs and sending them out into the world. We don't. But that doesn't mean we don't have any information pertaining what Solas does or how he acts. That's sort of what Inquisition was for. And if he'd like to throw people off whatever he's working on the way you say he could, I'd say that it'd be something that goes against what he's pulled off in Trespasser - him saving the South and Inquisitor, then informing even the Inquisitor he dislikes that he's up to no good and also declaring that he wants to give people on the South some 'final peace'. Despite parallels, Solas is not exactly like Corypheus and I think we both know it. From my perspective, Promisers are too small of a fry to be anything other than an obstacle in Cassandra's personal quest, what with Lucius basically being one of them. All that says is that not just ancient, guilt-ridden elven god or Blighted magister think that perhaps the best solution for the world is to be destroyed/changed on large scale and replaced by something better, and I expect in DA4 we'd see other people/sects/whatever sharing that sentiment. ... And if Solas wants to stir chaos among humans, I bet that he has more effective and elegant solutions than turning people that were already against one another. Heck, the best way for him to stir up chaos among humans is for him to just be honest ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/RebJidSPcxyF0U0Rr0uW.png) I'd argue that some ideas are indeed more plausible than others (speaking in general here) - I was also under impression that we come to the forum not just to speculate, but to discuss our speculations. I mean... I do. If I have stuff I want to discuss and throw some ideas or speculations, I kinda want to put them to test against insight or ideas of others, in case there's something I overlooked, misinterpreted or else.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 5, 2017 3:31:13 GMT
We know solas arranged things so that corypheus's agents would find his orb to get Cory to unlock it for him. It's reasonable to think he will manipulate other parties to get things he wants without them knowing he's behind anything. So whether the Order of fiery promise would want to help Solas or not isn't necessarily relevant to whether or not they will. At this point this is not even about manipulation per se, but who he'd manipulate, how and what for. Goading Promisers into fighting institutions that they were already fighting or pretending that he's the Maker or his prophet seems implausible, based what we know about how Solas works or what we know about Promisers. Unlike Corypheus (who Solas deemed as being the one who is capable of opening his orb) or Venatori (a group of powerful Tevinter mages with resources and power to make even Archon worry), Promisers were not portrayed as having any significance outside of their age-old feud with Seekers Of Truth.. and the only reason we really see them is because they were almost literally let in through the back door by Lucius, rather than decimated Seekers through their own strength.
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Post by Lazarillo on Jul 5, 2017 3:32:35 GMT
From my perspective, Promisers are too small of a fry to be anything other than an obstacle in Cassandra's personal quest, what with Lucius basically being one of them. All that says is that not just ancient, guilt-ridden elven god or Blighted magister think that perhaps the best solution for the world is to be destroyed/changed on large scale and replaced by something better, and I expect in DA4 we'd see other people/sects/whatever sharing that sentiment. ... And if Solas wants to stir chaos among humans, I bet that he has more effective and elegant solutions than turning people that were already against one another. Heck, the best way for him to stir up chaos among humans is for him to just be honest ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/RebJidSPcxyF0U0Rr0uW.png) The Promisers could be quite useful to Fen'Harel just because, given their whole doomsday attitude, they're one of the few groups he could trust with the true plan. I doubt all the various Elven peasants and such that are joining him are getting the whole "oh and by the way, this is gonna kill everyone" initiation. I wouldn't be surprised if he needs a few loyal people who know the whole plan, and who better than people who want to destroy the world anyway? And I don't see any reason why he wouldn't be willing to lie to them, either. Even as he uses them, I suspect he's the kind who would look upon people seeking to end the world for ending the world's sake as "evil", and I doubt the Dread Wolf would see any real harm in manipulating people he didn't like.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 5, 2017 3:58:37 GMT
From my perspective, Promisers are too small of a fry to be anything other than an obstacle in Cassandra's personal quest, what with Lucius basically being one of them. All that says is that not just ancient, guilt-ridden elven god or Blighted magister think that perhaps the best solution for the world is to be destroyed/changed on large scale and replaced by something better, and I expect in DA4 we'd see other people/sects/whatever sharing that sentiment. ... And if Solas wants to stir chaos among humans, I bet that he has more effective and elegant solutions than turning people that were already against one another. Heck, the best way for him to stir up chaos among humans is for him to just be honest The Promisers could be quite useful to Fen'Harel just because, given their whole doomsday attitude, they're one of the few groups he could trust with the true plan. I doubt all the various Elven peasants and such that are joining him are getting the whole "oh and by the way, this is gonna kill everyone" initiation. I wouldn't be surprised if he needs a few loyal people who know the whole plan, and who better than people who want to destroy the world anyway? Corypheus basically wanted something similar and nobody in their right mind would think that Cory and Solas share the same agenda, even if they shared a few ideas as to how to accomplish their goals. So I really find it head-scratching to see suggestions that just because a few human zealots see it necessary to destroy the world to let it be reborn would mean that it's THE group Solas would entrust with his plans, or even would want to have anything to do with them. Add to that the fact that Solas has massive trust issues. It's been well-established in the game. He's not trusting anybody with his 'true plans', not even the love of his life, so it's safe to say he won't be doing that with an obscure Andrastian sect that has NOT been established in the game to have any significant power or influence over the events. As for "by the way, this is gonna kill everyone"... well yeah, we don't know that yet. We don't really know what 'end of this world' Solas means, considering that he's destroyed one world already, but it wasn't total destruction and there certainly were survivors. He's basically saying the same thing to disliked Inquisitor as he does to liked. He's also not super-fond of humans, but doesn't want to see innocents suffer unnecessarily, and I'm fairly sure he'd count a decimated little sect as part of those innocents, who don't really know any better, nor I see him having any use of them.
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Post by arvaarad on Jul 5, 2017 4:39:35 GMT
We know solas arranged things so that corypheus's agents would find his orb to get Cory to unlock it for him. It's reasonable to think he will manipulate other parties to get things he wants without them knowing he's behind anything. So whether the Order of fiery promise would want to help Solas or not isn't necessarily relevant to whether or not they will. Given that there are templar(ish) markings dating back to ancient times, it's not totally impossible that the Promisers are already some kind of splinter group off the elven rebellion, full-on AoFs, or servants of some other ancient force: titans, Andruil, dragons, the Stone, etc. Their behavior is real odd even by cult standards. They take on the trappings of seekers and templars but seem bent on destroying them first. They keep reappearing through the ages, which is normal for doomsday cults in general, but very abnormal for a specific doomsday cult. People might take bits and pieces of an extinct doomsday cult, but very rarely bring it back exactly the same... except when they're Promisers. This is true even in Thedas. A comparable doomsday cult, the Empty Ones, died out seemingly permanently after they had the brilliant idea to go hug some darkspawn. Even the much less doom-y Haven cultists are gone without a trace. However, Promisers reappear across the ages with little to no changes to their mission.
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Jul 5, 2017 4:46:17 GMT
We know solas arranged things so that corypheus's agents would find his orb to get Cory to unlock it for him. It's reasonable to think he will manipulate other parties to get things he wants without them knowing he's behind anything. So whether the Order of fiery promise would want to help Solas or not isn't necessarily relevant to whether or not they will. At this point this is not even about manipulation per se, but who he'd manipulate, how and what for. Goading Promisers into fighting institutions that they were already fighting or pretending that he's the Maker or his prophet seems implausible, based what we know about how Solas works or what we know about Promisers. Unlike Corypheus (who Solas deemed as being the one who is capable of opening his orb) or Venatori (a group of powerful Tevinter mages with resources and power to make even Archon worry), Promisers were not portrayed as having any significance outside of their age-old feud with Seekers Of Truth.. and the only reason we really see them is because they were almost literally let in through the back door by Lucius, rather than decimated Seekers through their own strength. I agree that Solas wouldn't pretend to be the maker, I don't think he'd interact directly with them at all. But I think he'd manipulate any party if it would help his plans, not wanting unnecessary suffering and being willing to cause suffering deemed necessary to the plan aren't exclusionary. Whether or not the promisors could help his plans is questionable though, I don't know how many of them are left. I wouldn't see them as followers of his, but perhaps patsies, driven to attack some location to create a distraction or steal something etc. You wouldn't necessary need a large group or large amount of resources for that. Whether they're small or large now they could just as well be one of the many groups that Solas and his followers might influence/ manipulated for the plan. Since we don't know what it is its all uncertain what he might need.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 5, 2017 5:04:00 GMT
We know solas arranged things so that corypheus's agents would find his orb to get Cory to unlock it for him. It's reasonable to think he will manipulate other parties to get things he wants without them knowing he's behind anything. So whether the Order of fiery promise would want to help Solas or not isn't necessarily relevant to whether or not they will. Given that there are templar(ish) markings dating back to ancient times, it's not totally impossible that the Promisers are already some kind of splinter group off the elven rebellion, full-on AoFs, or servants of some other ancient force: titans, Andruil, dragons, the Stone, etc. They're a splinter group that formed after death of Andraste. That much has been established in the game. No reason to think that Andrastianism was much different than Christianity back at the time short after Jesus' death, especially given that it's been clearly inspired by it. Well yeah, because they think they're the true inheritors of Andraste's legacy. In that regard they really are not that different from different in-fighting groups within one religion IRL. ... Not really? I mean, how do you know that current Promisers are the same as those before, considering we don't really know that much about them? Adapting a name and a core tenets isn't really rocket science - and the idea that they're TRUE followers lies pretty much at the core of most splinter sects, if not the prime reason why they form in the first place. A mission that really isn't that complicated, all things considered. After all, Lucius has adapted their beliefs, and it's been established in the game that he isn't some secret Promiser that has infiltrated the Seekers, but he's been shaken by what he's found in the Order's book of secrets (he even explicitly states that he's had created the new Order to replace the old). In fact, considering that he's the prime example of a Seeker tuning on his order after learning the truth, there's no reason to not think that the Order may have been resurrected across the ages by disillusioned Seekers who found out too much and couldn't handle it.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 5, 2017 5:16:20 GMT
At this point this is not even about manipulation per se, but who he'd manipulate, how and what for. Goading Promisers into fighting institutions that they were already fighting or pretending that he's the Maker or his prophet seems implausible, based what we know about how Solas works or what we know about Promisers. Unlike Corypheus (who Solas deemed as being the one who is capable of opening his orb) or Venatori (a group of powerful Tevinter mages with resources and power to make even Archon worry), Promisers were not portrayed as having any significance outside of their age-old feud with Seekers Of Truth.. and the only reason we really see them is because they were almost literally let in through the back door by Lucius, rather than decimated Seekers through their own strength. I agree that Solas wouldn't pretend to be the maker, I don't think he'd interact directly with them at all. But I think he'd manipulate any party if it would help his plans, not wanting unnecessary suffering and being willing to cause suffering deemed necessary to the plan aren't exclusionary. Whether or not the promisors could help his plans is questionable though, I don't know how many of them are left. There's a high possibility that none or very little of them are left. I find it unlikely that they were a large group (they're heretics and like most heretics at times resembling our medieval/early renaissance times, the Chantry would have dealt with them) and majority of Order would likely leap on occasion that Lucius has given them and mostly kept to Caer Oswin. Considering that they were already used as patsies by Cory and Lucius - and they weren't really even good at that - I find their usefulness questionable, to say the least. Plus, I find it terribly unlikely we'd see any Promisers in Tevinter, considering that institution of Seekers is thoroughly Southern. Ironically, I think we might see Seekers if we tell Cass to save them - but predominantly because Cassandra is de-facto leader of them now and she is part of new Inquisition's core that we see at the end of Trespasser.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 5, 2017 11:20:40 GMT
A possible use he could have for the Promisors is recovering some artefact for him that would be difficult for him to recover using elves because it might alert people to the fact they are working for him. For example, Dorian definitely saw pictures of ancient Tevinter using foci that looked very much like Solas' orb. There is also some mention in JoH of the priesthood of Razikale planting foci in walls to amplify their spells. So may be there is a cache of minor foci, or even one major foci, somewhere in Tevinter, possibly in the vault of the Circle of Magi (originally the temple to Razikale) or in the Cathedral of the Black Divine. So he gives the Promisors a "vision" of the required object and also possibly where they need to take it after recovery. If they succeed in their "mission" they will have delivered the required item to him, if they fail no one will suspect any link to him and think it is just the Promisors on some fanatical wild goose chase.
If he did have a use for them it would certainly be either through visions in their dreams or via an agent of his, just as he has always acted before. He rarely reveals himself directly to anyone not already a follower from ancient times. The Inquisitor can count themselves as quite privileged in that respect.
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Jul 5, 2017 13:32:26 GMT
I'd argue that some ideas are indeed more plausible than others (speaking in general here) - I was also under impression that we come to the forum not just to speculate, but to discuss our speculations. I mean... I do. If I have stuff I want to discuss and throw some ideas or speculations, I kinda want to put them to test against insight or ideas of others, in case there's something I overlooked, misinterpreted or else. I'm actually more interested in seeing what other people's ideas are, and then looking forward to seeing whose dart hit the board when the next game comes out.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 5, 2017 18:12:33 GMT
A possible use he could have for the Promisors is recovering some artefact for him that would be difficult for him to recover using elves because it might alert people to the fact they are working for him. For example, Dorian definitely saw pictures of ancient Tevinter using foci that looked very much like Solas' orb. Considering the amount of elven slaves in the imperium and their legendary sneakiness, getting one nearby a foci shouldn't be a problem. I also have doubts Solas would be looking for another foci - it was his, specific one, that he was interested with all along. And after it's broken and Inquisitor asks if it can be fixed, Solas says that it won't return what was important in it - meaning the contents, rather than the orb itself. IMO, whatever McGuffin we'd be searching for, it'd not be a second orb. I'd say that if Solas wanted pawns, he'd have much better options to pick from even in Tevinter itself (especially considering that he's already done that before). That's what really baffles me. Not the idea that Solas could use pawns if he needed to, but why specifically them? They're a bunch weak-ass zealots that couldn't have done anything on their own without explicit help from Lucius and Cory, so expecting them to sneak to Tevinter in the first place and then organize a heist to get the orb seems beyond their capabilities. They have no significance in the major plotline aside from their appearance in Cass' quest. We don't even meet their leader or anything; they're a faceless enemy who are only necessary for Lucius to overpower Seekers when he sends them - one by one - to Caer Oswin. And I'm fairly sure we eliminate them on our way to Lucius. Then there's the whole idea that the one giving people visions or orders via whispers is Solas himself, when we know for a fact that he isn't the only one able to contact or manipulate mortals via Fade. I'm not saying that to be an apologist or something - just pointing out that whispering or manipulation via Fade is part of normal repertoire in Thedas and many parties can be guilty of it, including those we may not yet know about.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 5, 2017 18:14:59 GMT
I'd argue that some ideas are indeed more plausible than others (speaking in general here) - I was also under impression that we come to the forum not just to speculate, but to discuss our speculations. I mean... I do. If I have stuff I want to discuss and throw some ideas or speculations, I kinda want to put them to test against insight or ideas of others, in case there's something I overlooked, misinterpreted or else. I'm actually more interested in seeing what other people's ideas are, and then looking forward to seeing whose dart hit the board when the next game comes out. ...That's what wee're doing when we're discussing? Disputing and comparing ideas?
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 5, 2017 18:47:46 GMT
I was just making a suggestion as to how they might be involved. I'm not saying that he couldn't find better alternatives or that there aren't other denizens of the Fade who might be jerking their string. As I said in a previous post, the Promisors may just have been an almighty red herring.
However, let us not forget that using Corypheus was hardly the wisest of plans. To give Solas his due, may be Corypheus was still in his Grey Warden disguise period, which is how he fooled Bianca, but Solas had certain advantages over her that should have enabled him to do a few background checks on the guy before he had his agents lead him to the orb. Not to mention that Solas has a very poor opinion of Grey Wardens/Venatori/Qunari, so using people he has a low opinion of would not be something new. When you have spent several millennia asleep waiting for yourself or your orb to recharge, surely a few more months/years isn't going to make much of a difference rather than giving it to some random guy or group (Venatori) because you think they will just blow themselves up.
I always thought that line of Flemeth's "You should not have given your orb to Corypheus", was the understatement of the year.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 5, 2017 20:42:19 GMT
I was just making a suggestion as to how they might be involved. I'm not saying that he couldn't find better alternatives or that there aren't other denizens of the Fade who might be jerking their string. As I said in a previous post, the Promisors may just have been an almighty red herring. A red herring? What does use of Corypheus/Venatori has with Promisers? Unlike Promisers, Corypheus/Venatori actually had power and means that Solas sought to use. That's my whole issue with theorizing that Promisers would have any influence over future events or even an appearance in later chapters. Compared to Venatori, they're nothing. Also, from his reaction at Haven and later comments, it'd seem that Solas only found out who the "Elder One" was when Corypheus has decided to attack Inquisition. I don't think pretty much anyone in the world thought that the leader of Venatori is more than powerful/resourceful magister, who leads an organization that gives even Archon pause. I think people underestimate just how good Corypheus was at covert scheming and hiding in the shadows. Even without the debacle in Temple of Sacred Ashes, he was at the cusp of conquering all of the South - and do that with its own corrupted protectors AND with nobody expecting it. And it's not a far-fetched assumption to think that being the former priest of SILENCE, who has no qualms to use blood or Blight magic (both of which interfere with Fade) AND a huge demon who snatches memories has its perks and makes such person difficult to track even for a Fade nerd. What do Grey Wardens have to do with anything? We don't know anything about Solas ever using them, OR having absolutely anything to do with release of Corypheus. In fact, Corypheus has pretty much released himself. He was controlling the Carta clan after he influenced Janeka and orchestrated everything. And whether Solas knew the finer details of Venatori plans, they were a much bigger threat to the world from the get-go compared to Promisers. There are a lot of assumptions here that I find strange. First: I have no idea where you're getting a notion that Solas would have grown powerful enough if he "waited a few years/months"? Even if he's managed to become more powerful at the end of Inquisition, he didn't replenish all his powers in a year he's been out - as evidenced by him having to steal some from Mythal. Second: Solas didn't wait for his orb to recharge. He tells us that "he woke still weak" while the orb has built up energy while he "laid unconscious for millenia". The wording is clear - he didn't just voluntarily fall asleep to wait for orb to recharge: he was drained (likely from Veil creation) and fell into an equivalent of a deep coma. And then he HAD to wake up, despite still being weak. And since he was still weak, he HAD to find a way to open his orb. Whether it's something he wishes to prevent or some sort of event that would help him realize his plans we don't know - but it's quite clear that Solas is on short schedule before something happens, so I find the whole notion of "well, why he didn't wait a few more years?" bizarre at best. You're telling that about a character that got herself betrayed and killed, which has likely prompted Solas to create the Veil in the first place. And I'm not even saying that it's "her fault" or "her miscalculation" - they just happen to live in a universe when even the best schemes can be circumvented by coincidences of cosmic proportions.
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