Dean The Not-so Young
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Post by Dean The Not-so Young on Jun 15, 2017 4:03:48 GMT
Really, Bioware? Really? That's the tone you want to start your new IP on?
I'll go out on a limb here and admit I wasn't too impressed by the verticle slice trailer. Visually impressive? Sure. Fun? Maybe. Good writing? Eh...
For awhile now, but especially in Mass Effect, I've always long felt Bioware leans a bit too heavily on the trope of the PC being the only competent person in a setting. In Mass Effect, anyone who didn't answer to Shepard was either unhelpful or an idiot for getting in Shepard's way. In Inquisition, the people who doubt the Inquisition are the fools. In Andromeda, the whole point of the early game is that Everyone Else Is Helpless Without You, even to the point of ignorring potential solutions to major in-setting problems. The player's always gotta be the one to fix anything.
On one hand, that makes sense- no story/mission if there's no problem for the player to fix- but that doesn't mean that the game has to suck up to the player in the 'only YOU can fix this, because we all suck' sort of way.
Sycophantic characters was one of the less pleasant parts of the ME trilogy for me. Really picking up in ME2, the way the NPCs approached the player was not just done to affect the player, but to appeal to their vanity and ego to the point of undermining (or rather, defining) all other NPCs to how they related to the Player Character. An NPC who recognizes the player's inherit righteousness and prowess is 'decent'. Those who doubt are asses who at best get a moment of comeuppance/redemption when they come around and admit you were right and they were wrong. 'The Best' companions are unwaveringly pro-PC across almost any decision, even those that should contrast with their morals (see- never-unhappy Garrus). The 'worst' Companions are frequently those with the most autonomy/independence from the PC, and the least likely to lick their boot.
Which characters qualify to what degree is something that I could spend pages quibbling on, but... please. I can't even say 'keep it to a minimum' when your first NPC demonstration- the demo that's supposed to give your future audience the idea of what Anthem is all about- is a self-deprecating, desperate, downright pitiful man begging for your gracious help because he fucked himself over (by not paying you the respect/money you deserve in the first place).
That is... such a pathetic way to present the context of your setting. And it really doesn't bode well for the competance of the setting as a whole. (After all, if other people besides you were competant, he wouldn't need you after he hired those others, would he?)
I mean, let's look at some of the other chosen tropes. You (Bioware) probably had an intent that some of these would be 'Interesting' and 'Exotic'. We have the outdoor market stalls, informal and filled with alien wonders. We have the lone colony/city on the edge of wilderness, waiting to be explored. We even have the PC, 'Freelancers', a name probably intended to emphasize freedom, independence, autonomy. You don't need no stinkin' government, you!
That's probably what you intended, at least. A setting to entice and be explored.
Here's what I saw.
A run down market of junk and scavenge, because the people here aren't good enough to produce their own things, let alone their own stores. A ruin or remnant of an outpost hiding from a world it couldn't settle or expand in. A society that can't even clear the trees away from the landing zones, and so instead flies through them. A poor state dependent on mercenaries and contractors, because there's no competent authority- no proficient organization- that would do things as a matter of course. No one even good enough to clear the trees/set up traffic directions/secure places less than five minutes away.
That's not an enticing civilization. That's a ruin needing to be saved- from itself. That's a chore.
Oh, I'm sure the game will be pretty. It may even be fun, for a little while. But if you're starting off with implicit flattering of the player base as the only competant people gracing a bunch of pathetic wretches with your help, you're going to have a pretty deep rut to write yourself out of, even before you start trying to compete with Destiny.
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Post by Fredward on Jun 15, 2017 6:54:34 GMT
This thread seems like a conflation of a lot of a number of separate issues which I may or may not agree with but I totally do think Bioware needs to ditch the "Save me [playername], you're my only hope!" When it's uncalled for anyway. Which it may not be in the bit we saw. The guy asked the lady with the mechsuit to go save some merchants that's not actually too weird. But I'm replaying MEA and Eos is just filled with people and companions going "YOU'RE THE PATHFINDER OMG SIGN MY PENIS!" And all I could think of was Addison "You're not a pathfinder until you've pathfound something." It was present in DAI too but not as egregious.
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Post by SofaJockey on Jun 15, 2017 9:07:15 GMT
... I'm replaying MEA and Eos is just filled with people and companions going "YOU'RE THE PATHFINDER OMG SIGN MY PENIS!" ... This is not a part of the game I remember...
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Post by Fredward on Jun 15, 2017 9:31:17 GMT
... I'm replaying MEA and Eos is just filled with people and companions going "YOU'RE THE PATHFINDER OMG SIGN MY PENIS!" ... This is not a part of the game I remember... The fan-signing/orgy was the best part of the game tho!
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Dean The Not-so Young
N2
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Post by Dean The Not-so Young on Jun 15, 2017 10:31:21 GMT
This thread seems like a conflation of a lot of a number of separate issues which I may or may not agree with but I totally do think Bioware needs to ditch the "Save me [playername], you're my only hope!" When it's uncalled for anyway. Which it may not be in the bit we saw. The guy asked the lady with the mechsuit to go save some merchants that's not actually too weird. But I'm replaying MEA and Eos is just filled with people and companions going "YOU'RE THE PATHFINDER OMG SIGN MY PENIS!" And all I could think of was Addison "You're not a pathfinder until you've path found something." It was present in DAI too but not as egregious. Guilty as charged on throwing a lot of pet peaves together, but Anthem's verticle slice left a bad taste in my mouth and this was the general thrust of why. (Well, that and that it seems to be trying to rip off Destiny- come on, why only a single city and a 'ruins' theme? Why not just say 'new colony?')
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Post by Wulfram on Jun 15, 2017 10:48:16 GMT
I think the vibe here is more "I should have hired a competent professional with the appropriate equipment" than hero worship or sycophancy. Its like if he tried to fix his toilet by himself and now water is everywhere and he needs a plumber to make an emergency visit.
And the player here is level 35ish, so they've presumably earnt some respect.
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Post by boyaki on Jun 15, 2017 11:19:03 GMT
He also put people in mortal danger, so yeah he is right to apologize and beg...?
Maybe he should have gone "meh, can you face mortal danger to save those i put in danger or whatever, I don't care, the pay will be minimal wage you scoundrel"
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Post by Quickpaw on Jun 15, 2017 21:43:09 GMT
It's... Kinda Bioware's thing. The only game I can think of where we're not the "Chosen one/Big Hero" was DA2, and that game was not very well received. Baldur's Gate: Son/Daughter of the God of Death. Neverwinter Nights: Mercenary Savior. KotOR: REVAN. Jade Empire: Spirit Monk. Mass Effect: Friggin' Space Jesus. Origins: Only Surviving Warden who can save Ferelden. Inquisition: Herald of Freakin' Andraste. Andromeda: The Pathfinder.
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Post by Beerfish on Jun 15, 2017 21:56:02 GMT
People want sycophants. See the characters that half the gaming population hate (Sera as an example) or the features that half the gaming population hates (can't change companions weapons or outfits) and it is because they can't change them or dictate to them.
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Dean The Not-so Young
N2
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Post by Dean The Not-so Young on Jun 15, 2017 22:10:27 GMT
I think the vibe here is more "I should have hired a competent professional with the appropriate equipment" than hero worship or sycophancy. Its like if he tried to fix his toilet by himself and now water is everywhere and he needs a plumber to make an emergency visit. And the player here is level 35ish, so they've presumably earnt some respect. The PC isn't getting praised because they've earned respect- the dialogue indicates that the PC is respected as superior/exceptionally competant because they're a Freelancer, ie on the merits of the title. Whereas the people hired weren't freelancers, and thus were incompetent by default, and so is the NPC for choosing them over You. Rather than 'tried to fix it himself, and now needs a plumber,' it's a dynamic much closer to 'hired a plumber, but not a CERTIFIED plumber,' which implies the competance comes from the certification.
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Dean The Not-so Young
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Post by Dean The Not-so Young on Jun 15, 2017 22:13:43 GMT
He also put people in mortal danger, so yeah he is right to apologize and beg...? Maybe he should have gone "meh, can you face mortal danger to save those i put in danger or whatever, I don't care, the pay will be minimal wage you scoundrel" 'He' is a fictional character with no agency because 'he' does not actually exist. The writers are the ones who create the scenario, and they're the ones to decide that they wanted- for the grand reveal of their new IP- an NPC groveling and begging to the player. That's a decision- a scenario- in no way dictated by the NPC. The writers get to choose what the context is. They chose to write an introduction based on incompetent groveling to flatter the player.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 15, 2017 22:20:33 GMT
I think the vibe here is more "I should have hired a competent professional with the appropriate equipment" than hero worship or sycophancy. Its like if he tried to fix his toilet by himself and now water is everywhere and he needs a plumber to make an emergency visit. And the player here is level 35ish, so they've presumably earnt some respect. The PC isn't getting praised because they've earned respect- the dialogue indicates that the PC is respected as superior/exceptionally competant because they're a Freelancer, ie on the merits of the title. Whereas the people hired weren't freelancers, and thus were incompetent by default, and so is the NPC for choosing them over You. Rather than 'tried to fix it himself, and now needs a plumber,' it's a dynamic much closer to 'hired a plumber, but not a CERTIFIED plumber,' which implies the competance comes from the certification. Hey, Project Freelancer did produce some very competent soldiers.
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Post by PermTrouble on Jun 15, 2017 23:02:26 GMT
Definitely not a fan of the whole, of course we can build and maintain death dealer mech suits but building a roof for our vendors is hard
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Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Heimdall
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Post by Heimdall on Jun 15, 2017 23:16:03 GMT
Hey, Project Freelancer did produce some very competent soldiers. Yup, my first thought too I kinda wonder if it's an intentional reference. Definitely not a fan of the whole, of course we can build and maintain death dealer mech suits but building a roof for our vendors is hard Looks like a bazaar, set up impromptu in a space not intended to be a market. Space is probably at a premium in these walled forts, it's not that strange.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 15, 2017 23:33:06 GMT
Hey, Project Freelancer did produce some very competent soldiers. Yup, my first thought too I kinda wonder if it's an intentional reference. If not, it is one heck of a coincidence. Both are called Freelancers, both use state of the art power armor, both have similar interactions with each other, etc.
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Post by azarhal on Jun 15, 2017 23:34:33 GMT
Definitely not a fan of the whole, of course we can build and maintain death dealer mech suits but building a roof for our vendors is hard It's an open air market. Reminds me of Marrakesh souks personally.
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Post by dropzofcrimzon on Jun 16, 2017 0:58:15 GMT
OP....you understand that it's been that way for nearly any RPG like...EVER right?
"Oh..a giant rat took my ring and ran off...could you find me for me for a reward?...oh you know what? NM I'll have my son do it....actually, we understand all the issues in out village/city/region are things our guards or headers or townspeople can do on their own so we will stop bothering yo....you go ahead and drag your unlevelled ass to the castle of ultimate evil so you can get it bitten off, chewed and handed back to you...have fun"
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Post by Space Cowboy on Jun 16, 2017 1:13:49 GMT
Skyrim: "Dragonborn! You've done five menial tasks that any one of us could have done! Thank you! Here, be our leader!"
Yeah it's hardly new to RPG's. That said, not every RPG is like that. I don't think Divinity OS was? But never finished it
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Post by azarhal on Jun 16, 2017 1:22:12 GMT
Skyrim: "Dragonborn! You've done five menial tasks that any one of us could have done! Thank you! Here, be our leader!" Yeah it's hardly new to RPG's. That said, not every RPG is like that. I don't think Divinity OS was? But never finished it Divinity Original Sin wasn't that different in term of quests, people just didn't saw you as a savior. You cleared and solved the undead problem near the first town and the local commander is like "You did it? Well thanks, saved me a few weeks of work, now leave me alone", lol.
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Post by Pounce de León on Jun 16, 2017 8:17:11 GMT
Sucopants? People already discuss the loot drops?
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Dean The Not-so Young
N2
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Post by Dean The Not-so Young on Jun 16, 2017 22:16:32 GMT
Skyrim: "Dragonborn! You've done five menial tasks that any one of us could have done! Thank you! Here, be our leader!" Yeah it's hardly new to RPG's. That said, not every RPG is like that. I don't think Divinity OS was? But never finished it 'The PC is the only one going to complete the quests' is notably different than 'only the PC can do it because everyone else is incompetent and pathetic,' which is the sort of stylistic tone I dislike. Skyrim is actually a good example of the better alternative, because Skyrim doesn't depend on tearing down the implied competence/ability of everyone around to make the player avatar be viewed as amazing by contrast. Dragonborn or not, the Companions are still valiantly killing giants when you're still getting knocked into the sky, the Empire and Stormcloaks are treated as competent organizations foiled by extraordinary people and circumstances rather than themselves, and everyone and their mother is still willing to fight you to the death over a sweetrole. Even the in-game best case for an 'incompetent' organization- the failing Thieves Guild- still has its characters treated as notably competent in their own right, and have their run of failures revealed to be the result supernatural forces beyond their control. Skyrim can get silly at times- like said villagers attacking when you're OP enough to solo armies, or exploiting mechanics like the bucket trick, or how you don't get the respect/recognition you could- but at the same time Skyrim plays into the power fantasy by raising the Dragonborn through gradual accomplishments, not belittling everyone else. Most quests you help with, while existing only for you, are not treated as things only you are competent enough to complete. No one might clear that forsworne mine until you come along, but no one in-setting suggests that it's not something the Legion/the Stormcloaks/the Companions/the Guards couldn't handle without you. Almost no one in Skyrim has their approach to the Dragonborne defined by groveling at the Dragonborne's pure awesomeness and competence. Skyrim is a great example of how you can absolutely have an enjoyable game of the PC being the one to do almost everything without the narrative claiming that ONLY the PC can do anything (because everyone else sucks and should bask in your presence).
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Post by Space Cowboy on Jun 16, 2017 23:23:32 GMT
Skyrim: "Dragonborn! You've done five menial tasks that any one of us could have done! Thank you! Here, be our leader!" Yeah it's hardly new to RPG's. That said, not every RPG is like that. I don't think Divinity OS was? But never finished it 'The PC is the only one going to complete the quests' is notably different than 'only the PC can do it because everyone else is incompetent and pathetic,' which is the sort of stylistic tone I dislike. Skyrim is actually a good example of the better alternative, because Skyrim doesn't depend on tearing down the implied competence/ability of everyone around to make the player avatar be viewed as amazing by contrast. Dragonborn or not, the Companions are still valiantly killing giants when you're still getting knocked into the sky, the Empire and Stormcloaks are treated as competent organizations foiled by extraordinary people and circumstances rather than themselves, and everyone and their mother is still willing to fight you to the death over a sweetrole. Even the in-game best case for an 'incompetent' organization- the failing Thieves Guild- still has its characters treated as notably competent in their own right, and have their run of failures revealed to be the result supernatural forces beyond their control. Skyrim can get silly at times- like said villagers attacking when you're OP enough to solo armies, or exploiting mechanics like the bucket trick, or how you don't get the respect/recognition you could- but at the same time Skyrim plays into the power fantasy by raising the Dragonborn through gradual accomplishments, not belittling everyone else. Most quests you help with, while existing only for you, are not treated as things only you are competent enough to complete. No one might clear that forsworne mine until you come along, but no one in-setting suggests that it's not something the Legion/the Stormcloaks/the Companions/the Guards couldn't handle without you. Almost no one in Skyrim has their approach to the Dragonborne defined by groveling at the Dragonborne's pure awesomeness and competence. Skyrim is a great example of how you can absolutely have an enjoyable game of the PC being the one to do almost everything without the narrative claiming that ONLY the PC can do anything (because everyone else sucks and should bask in your presence). Oh I'm definitely not disputing that. It's just that somehow by doing tasks that anyone else in the setting could do they reward you with leadership right away rather than a gradual path through the ranks. It's far better that Bioware's trend of groveling to the PC though
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Post by Walter Black on Jul 5, 2017 12:46:46 GMT
The PC isn't getting praised because they've earned respect- the dialogue indicates that the PC is respected as superior/exceptionally competant because they're a Freelancer, ie on the merits of the title. Whereas the people hired weren't freelancers, and thus were incompetent by default, and so is the NPC for choosing them over You. Rather than 'tried to fix it himself, and now needs a plumber,' it's a dynamic much closer to 'hired a plumber, but not a CERTIFIED plumber,' which implies the competance comes from the certification. Hey, Project Freelancer did produce some very competent soldiers. Competent soldiers who killed each other more than the enemy .
The storyline of Project Freelancer basically took the Reds and Blue's "ragtag bunch of misfits manipulated into a meaningless conflict" trope and played it for more realistic drama instead of screwball comedy. Both are valid choices, but it does provide the occasional Mood Whiplash to the overall franchise.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jul 5, 2017 15:24:18 GMT
Bioware leans a bit too heavily on the trope of the PC being the only competent person in a setting.You weren't paying attention to the trailer. KIM is the most competent Freelancer in Fort T. MICHELLE is only level 34. KIM is level 36. Michelle's comment about Kim needing XP was obviously a dig at how envious she is of his grinding ability. I don't think the NPC picked Michelle because she is the only competent person in the setting. I think he has the hots for her. Because, Bioware. Brought to you from the Department of Ask A Silly Question, Get A Facile Answer.
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Post by Sartoz on Jul 7, 2017 14:06:53 GMT
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Hm... In a four-man co-op Fire Team, the "PC" may actually be the weakest link. In any case, this is a staged demo designed for intro purposes. One can't really read too much into it. Nevertheless, the intro clearly wants to show the co-op game, which by definition has no PC. Logout
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