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Post by Heimdall on Jun 21, 2017 15:11:15 GMT
In keeping with the Destiny comparisons, that game's big end game content comes in the form of 6 person events called Raids that require immense coordination between players. The game initially had one and three more have been added in subsequent expansions. They are story relevant, but they are not necessary to the single player plot (By design, since the developers know most players will never set foot in a Raid), except maybe Crota's End and King's Fall which deal with the definitive death of characters you defeated (But didn't kill) in the single player story missions.
I've seen a lot of hostility to the idea that there would be any multiplayer only content in Anthem, but I'm curious about how many people would be open to a similar idea. If 95% of the game is solo play or has the option for a solo difficulty setting, would you be open to the idea of some content designed for maximum challenge for a group as long as it only has tangential story connections?
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Post by ShadowAngel on Jun 21, 2017 15:31:01 GMT
If they do raids in Anthem I feel they should really get some variety in them. Destiny kind of sucked because it didn't really have much. You had VoG, CE, WoTM, and the Oryx raid, doesn't seem like a lot for a game that's 2? 3 years old? (I quit playing when Oryx raid can out). I LOVE the idea of raids. I did a lot of it on doungens and dragons online (Anthem still isn't an mmo) as I love the requirements of working with group and having the difficulty spike because of more members in play. If you can get level designs down, make them difficult and different in their own way and have enough for variety with pretty good loot they can be a blast.
It's guaranteed raids will be something that is mixed, destiny had statistics were like only 33% of the playerbase had even beat one and like a near 50% have attempted it. Part of that is cause it wasn't friendly towards solo players and there was no raid matchmaking (which I think is useless but could still be an option for those wanting to try). If anthem wants most of their player base to raid they've gotta make it friendly towards everyone, groups will be a given to just about always participate.
*will be back to elaborate, only put out enough to show interest and will fill out more when I'm off work*
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Post by LightningPoodle on Jun 21, 2017 15:42:57 GMT
I think yes. However, there needs to be a better way to form these raids unlike in Destiny where you can only do it with people you "know." As I could never get 5 other people to join me in a raid, I never got to see any of that end game content in Destiny, which was a bummer for me.
Perhaps they could split the raids into smaller like dungeons. In order to progress to the next dungeon in the raid, you have to complete the one before and this can be done with a random group finder. This would allow you to still see that content without being constrained to a single group. Maybe that content could have slightly "better" loot drops if you do it with a pre-made group, but only stat wise to incentivise doing it with your friends.
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Post by Heimdall on Jun 21, 2017 15:44:25 GMT
I had actually never tried a Raid in Destiny before the last couple weeks when I decided I wanted to complete each at least once before Destiny 2. I found they were fun as long as the team was good, but as a solo player using 3rd party websites to find groups that tended to be unpredictable.
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Post by Heimdall on Jun 21, 2017 15:54:09 GMT
I think yes. However, there needs to be a better way to form these raids unlike in Destiny where you can only do it with people you "know." As I could never get 5 other people to join me in a raid, I never got to see any of that end game content in Destiny, which was a bummer for me. Perhaps they could split the raids into smaller like dungeons. In order to progress to the next dungeon in the raid, you have to complete the one before and this can be done with a random group finder. This would allow you to still see that content without being constrained to a single group. Maybe that content could have slightly "better" loot drops if you do it with a pre-made group, but only stat wise to incentivise doing it with your friends. Bungie is trying something interesting with Destiny 2. In what they call "Guided Games" preformed groups of 4-5 players will be able to enter matchmaking and get linked to solo players. They want to give more players accessibility to Raids. I'll be interested to see how well that works
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2017 16:08:03 GMT
TL:DR: Yes, if they: - Have bolstered Story Mode with a good balance of mechanics and pug-passability
- numerous but interesting;
- fairly short and do not have mob traps, leaps, shortcuts that are hard for a newb/latecomer/not a good player;
- relevant for progression
- not prohibitively hard for a specific role that will bottleneck participation (LF experienced tank syndrome)
What I would like is a Story Mode for the raid content so that pretty much any pug could pass them on that setting. I’ve been through wipes on Underlurker enough times to say it’s frigging important to not add HM mechanics into an SM raid & that failure rate on pugs needs to be monitored and, yes, if it is that high, it needs nerfs. It should have Bolster like SWTOR Story Mode Operations so you can start earning your gear as soon as you level up, and no matter what the hells you have ended a game in, you cannot be barred because you are ungeared. You should NOT have to rely on friends to carry you. The times have changed.
Ideally, the Story Mode will also have tips that will give you an ample auditory and visual clues that you need to put on an i-frame, and if you miss it, you are gonna suffer but not die. BnS had awesome warning bars for I-frames and even suggested the spell that your class will have to use to live through it on SM.
On Story Mode, the mechanics should be visible and perceptible, but you should be able to win with just tank and spank.
I would also advocate the Raids to be shorter, skip complicated/prolonged mob grinds & maybe have some sort of a device that helps bypassing puzzles, as the really complicated ones become tedious after the first twenty times.
SWTOR had absolutely awesome Operations with great stories and the best combat design and visuals in the whole game.
Yet, it is the easiest element to never get engaged in. It took me a year and a half before I was taken into one as a new player by a friend. Who then took his time to take me through each and every one of the Operations to make sure I knew the mechanics and knew my role in PvE and the time was good for it, because at that time all Operations were very, very easy b/c they did not catch up to the new level upgrade.
Most players do not have a friend like that, are not particularly good, and guilds that are truly fun & casual in their attitude, yet very professional in terms of scheduling and taking care of everyone getting through the content and being taught if they asked for it, are not numerous. Even with all that help, I actually never played 4M Dungeons in SWTOR (flashpoints) the way there were designed to play. The first few I managed to play properly through pugging as a tank (yes, yes, with all the: Hello! I am your tank and that's my first time. Wait! I've read the guide! I swear! Waaaait! ) on the level just before they started dismantling the Trinity/tie to the level approach, but as the difficulty ramped up, and time investment was not worth it, I simply did the rest solo once, and played Ops instead. Which sucked, b/c there were far, far more 4Ms available, and only 10 or so Ops.
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Post by Wulfram on Jun 21, 2017 16:18:49 GMT
I don't mind there being multiplayer exclusive story so long as the single player story feels complete without it.
I'd prefer any large scale group content be designed to be accessible and casual, rather than designed for maximum challenge. The larger the group, the more toxicity and unpleasantness. The best place for extreme difficulty is solo.
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Post by Heimdall on Jun 21, 2017 16:21:31 GMT
The first few I managed to play properly through pugging as a tank (yes, yes, with all the: Hello! I am your tank and that's my first time. Wait! I've read the guide! I swear! Waaaait! ) This is why I always lie about whether I've done a raid before when doing it for the first time.
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Post by azarhal on Jun 21, 2017 16:30:02 GMT
I think yes. However, there needs to be a better way to form these raids unlike in Destiny where you can only do it with people you "know." As I could never get 5 other people to join me in a raid, I never got to see any of that end game content in Destiny, which was a bummer for me. Perhaps they could split the raids into smaller like dungeons. In order to progress to the next dungeon in the raid, you have to complete the one before and this can be done with a random group finder. This would allow you to still see that content without being constrained to a single group. Maybe that content could have slightly "better" loot drops if you do it with a pre-made group, but only stat wise to incentivise doing it with your friends. Bungie is trying something interesting with Destiny 2. In what they call "Guided Games" preformed groups of 4-5 players will be able to enter matchmaking and get linked to solo players. They want to give more players accessibility to Raids. I'll be interested to see how well that works It's going to be a failure (to have solo players do the raids) and the community toxicity will raise. Group of experienced players don't want noobs in their raids. Talking by experience in multiple MMOs where pug-ing raid is possible. Oh and a lot of solo players are solo players because they don't want to use voice chat or interact much with others too... Every game with raid content end up in the exact same situation: a very low % of the players actually experience the content which leads to the devs try to find a way to have more players do the content which only end up raising the community toxicity (either because the dev reduced the difficulty of the raids or elitists jerks being pissed they aren't as l33t anymore because others got access).
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2017 16:38:46 GMT
The first few I managed to play properly through pugging as a tank (yes, yes, with all the: Hello! I am your tank and that's my first time. Wait! I've read the guide! I swear! Waaaait! ) This is why I always lie about whether I've done a raid before when doing it for the first time. I don't. People that stay are more likely to help you. I had guys coaching me on positioning or keeping the pace rather than running ahead and assuming I am going to be able to adjust if they grab aggro. I was so frigging nervous first time that I forgot to put the guard on (I nearly died of embarrassment b/c in PvP is what I did all game long, swap the guard & CC) & was grateful for a nice rather than pissed reminder.
Overall, raids are nice when people are nice. I had experiences ranging from wonderful to awful. And the most memorable gaming moments I have are from MP content, both bad and good, PvP and PvE. And I suck as a player, old, painfully shy and introverted. So, yeah, my feelings on the matter are complicated.
But it helps when the design to start with helps people to be nice.
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Post by Heimdall on Jun 21, 2017 16:54:18 GMT
Bungie is trying something interesting with Destiny 2. In what they call "Guided Games" preformed groups of 4-5 players will be able to enter matchmaking and get linked to solo players. They want to give more players accessibility to Raids. I'll be interested to see how well that works It's going to be a failure (to have solo players do the raids) and the community toxicity will raise. Group of experienced players don't want noobs in their raids. Talking by experience in multiple MMOs where pug-ing raid is possible. Oh and a lot of solo players are solo players because they don't want to use voice chat or interact much with others too... Every game with raid content end up in the exact same situation: a very low % of the players actually experience the content which leads to the devs try to find a way to have more players do the content which only end up raising the community toxicity (either because the dev reduced the difficulty of the raids or elitists jerks being pissed they aren't as l33t anymore because others got access). There are ways they could minimize that, adding a way to filter out players without mics in matchmaking would help and the pre-formed groups would ensure only 1-2 people in a group are randoms. The group leader could still kick players that don't know what their doing, troll, or lack a mic.
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Post by SwobyJ on Jun 21, 2017 17:04:40 GMT
Haven't read thread.
I love raids.
I never do the highest end raids and/or difficulty modes.
But I love raids. And main story in raids (raid instances).
IF YOU GIVE A STORY (pug group/small group/solo) MODE.
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Post by Heimdall on Jun 21, 2017 17:56:00 GMT
This is why I always lie about whether I've done a raid before when doing it for the first time. I don't. People that stay are more likely to help you. I had guys coaching me on positioning or keeping the pace rather than running ahead and assuming I am going to be able to adjust if they grab aggro. I was so frigging nervous first time that I forgot to put the guard on (I nearly died of embarrassment b/c in PvP is what I did all game long, swap the guard & CC) & was grateful for a nice rather than pissed reminder.
Overall, raids are nice when people are nice. I had experiences ranging from wonderful to awful. And the most memorable gaming moments I have are from MP content, both bad and good, PvP and PvE. And I suck as a player, old, painfully shy and introverted. So, yeah, my feelings on the matter are complicated.
But it helps when the design to start with helps people to be nice.
I've had some good experiences with people willing to help out, but I've also found it's generally much harder to find groups willing to take you if you advertise your inexperienced. I don't have many friends that play the same games I do either. So I watch guides, learn the mechanics as best I can, and go in hoping the group will be forgiving if I mess up.
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Post by LogicGunn on Jun 21, 2017 20:00:43 GMT
I don't like team playing, but if other gamers like it and will play it I think it should be included. They've already said the game will be playable solo. I don't mind missing some things.
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Post by Beerfish on Jun 21, 2017 21:49:48 GMT
Can't say, I've never played any of these comparator games before
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Post by Frost on Jun 22, 2017 0:18:31 GMT
If the following were true I wouldn't mind seeing raid content: - Completely separate story, which means the following:
- A solo or small group quest line would not end in a raid
- A boss introduced in a solo/small group quest would not be defeated in a raid only
- Key lore for solo/small group quest lines would not only be found in a raid
[li]Equivalent loot elsewhere (as far as stats) [/li] [li]Enough resources to develop content going forward for both groups[/li] [/ul] However, I think there is almost no chance that all the above would be true, so I voted No.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2017 12:21:40 GMT
I just remembered the type of raid that married the best of both worlds and was great. It was so called 24M raids in Blade and Soul. Unfortunately, they were poorly loot supported in BnS-West, so depopulated fast, but the principle was perfect.
Basically, what it is, is an instances dungeon that admits up to 24M per instance. It has tons of mobs grind tasks which you can do solo for your Daily, but once enough is killed, one of the mini-bosses is announced to arrive. So, folks would make it to the boss location and do a group kill.
Some of these raids were also timed, in other words had definitive starting times on the weekends that concentrated the participation.
It was a very nice way to play solo, but to be able to kill bosses with other people. Some of the required a small group to take down tougher mobs as a variant of dailies (otherwise you had to sneak around those).
also, some of those 24M had 6 and 4M equivalents, so you could learn a layout and the simpler version of the battles on your own in 24M, and then try the progression versions.
If properly managed, stuff like that would be nice imo.
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Post by Uchimura on Jun 22, 2017 13:06:00 GMT
After years of raids in MMOs, I'd opt for smaller-the-better for group size.
I say focus on a smaller raid size that offers the best loot. Then create a mirror of the content with a tougher difficulty for larger groups if they prefer it that way and they can still have bragging rights.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2017 13:40:38 GMT
After years of raids in MMOs, I'd opt for smaller-the-better for group size. I say focus on a smaller raid size that offers the best loot. Then create a mirror of the content with a tougher difficulty for larger groups if they prefer it that way and they can still have bragging rights. Well, that would eliminate ability to start as a newcomer and continue as an average player. If each place is at a premium for best loot, nobody will want to include bad players, and a bunch of bad players will never pass. Or if a few bad players can pass it, the leet will whine it's too easy and they are bored.
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Post by Sartoz on Jun 22, 2017 17:17:05 GMT
-(_ANTHEM_)-
Fort Tarsis appears to be humanity against a hostile world outside its conclave. RAID missions, then, ought to be something like:
(1) Clear an enemy encampment. (2) Assault action in caves for loot. (3) "Capture the Flag" exercises against other human groups (4) Co-op action as in ME3MP / MEAMP using a bunch of different maps.
As to RAID content, meh.... sounds like Battlefront II.
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Post by Cyonan on Jun 22, 2017 17:53:13 GMT
Having played WoW for so long, a 6 man group is going to feel more like a Heroic dungeon(or I guess they're calling them Mythics now) rather than a raid.
But I'd still love to see it.
As for people being able to see the content I think WoW's system worked well in the past. You have normal mode for the raid/dungeon for the people who just want to see the content or as a stepping stone to higher difficulties, and then heroic mode for people who want the challenge(and maybe better loot).
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Post by SofaJockey on Jun 23, 2017 6:01:32 GMT
Ah yes, 'raids'. They always go well...
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Post by warlorejohn on Jun 23, 2017 7:21:27 GMT
Lol I remember that raid😂😥
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Post by projectpatdc on Jun 23, 2017 8:10:30 GMT
I wasn't really for team playing until I played Destiny and especially the raids. Completing a raid for the first time in Destiny....there has never been a more satisfying and fun gaming experience IMO.
It would be dumb and really broken if people could get the same loot playing solo as having to work with a group of four or six. People on this forum wanting this game to be only single player are going to be really disappointed when it comes to end game content. And if they cater the loot system to single players then a lot of destiny and division fans won't like it because it kills the challenge
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✜ Forge Mechanic
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PapaCharlie9
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jun 23, 2017 16:38:22 GMT
I wasn't really for team playing until I played Destiny and especially the raids. Completing a raid for the first time in Destiny....there has never been a more satisfying and fun gaming experience IMO. It would be dumb and really broken if people could get the same loot playing solo as having to work with a group of four or six. People on this forum wanting this game to be only single player are going to be really disappointed when it comes to end game content. And if they cater the loot system to single players then a lot of destiny and division fans won't like it because it kills the challenge That is the gear progression dilemma in a nutshell. When you've got a good team that knows how to work together, yes, it's very satisfying. If you don't, it's frustrating as all get out. Fortunately, there's a simple solution to the gear progression dilemma -- have separate tiers. Have two gear progressions, one for solo/casual co-op play, one for competitive raid/world event play, and never the twain shall meet. You pick which tier you want to play in when you sign into the game. Then everyone knows what they are getting themselves into right from the start. A slightly less good solution is to phase out raid gear over time. You're raid gear is exclusive to raid successes for a few months, then a DLC comes out that 1) adds a whole bunch of new raids with new gear, and 2) makes the old raid gear available to single-players without needing to complete a raid.
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