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Post by phoray on Sept 15, 2016 6:07:24 GMT
I haven't seen this discussed, although I'm sure it was, long ago on BSN Prime.
I've played thrice. The first 2 times, I was like, no way am I giving this mage over to the Qun when they'll just kill him anyway.
I have been playing Evil Hawke this third time and I handed him over.---And darned if the speech Ketojan gave me didn't make me question which was the right choice forever forward. There is probably some video of both on Youtube.
Here's giving him over:
Some talking in this one, but it has the self immolation speech:
My opinion of the most Important line of giving him over: "Baasvaraad, you led well. I thank your intent." Then that Qunari leader goes on about the honor Ketojan showed you. How he honors you, Hawke, with the "Ceremonial cut."
My opinion of the most important line of not giving him over: "I do not want to die. I want to live by the Qun."
People who have played both, which did you prefer and why?
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Post by Catilina on Sept 15, 2016 12:50:42 GMT
I think this is about the free will, but no one of them right or wrong answers. He wants to return to the qun. Mostly, my Hawke replied, "If he wants…" But hot-headed Hawke mentions that he/Anders is a mage, the qunari squad attack his group; from then it almost does not matter, ... that is, I tried both: the more "Andrastian" answer ("I can not allow"), and also the free-will answer. Hawke can not save his life, so: I prefer the free-will answer: he is not Andrastian, and don't want to be Tal-Vashot.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2016 5:37:04 GMT
Depends on how evil I want to be... On my canon, i fought the Qunari for him though. On my current playthrough, I gave him the Qunari with no protest (besides for Anders in the background...)
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Post by Rascoth on Sept 16, 2016 14:46:34 GMT
I don't think there's right answer. He wants to return to Qun, despite knowing what'll happen to him. Should we go against his will? Or should we fight for his freedom? Hawke doesn't know that this ends up the same way - in Ketojan's death.
So this really boils down to Hawke's beliefs. Personally, most of my pts I fight for his freedom (since I mostly play my canon Hawke and that's how she reacts), but I have no preference.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 16, 2016 14:50:24 GMT
I don't think there's right answer. He wants to return to Qun, despite knowing what'll happen to him. Should we go against his will? Or should we fight for his freedom? Hawke doesn't know that this ends up the same way - in Ketojan's death. So this really boils down to Hawke's beliefs. Personally, most of my pts I fight for his freedom (since I mostly play my canon Hawke and that's how she reacts), but I have no preference. free will vs freedom
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Post by Dukemon on Sept 17, 2016 9:41:10 GMT
My Hawke is telling the Qunari every time he and companions are mages. The reaction is beautiful and I love it. Every time i have lought about the Group of body builder males how they pissing on thereself. XD That is great. Free mages! I missing my Arcane Warrior
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It's Raining Leggos!!!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
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Post by HunterKipling on Sept 19, 2016 5:01:24 GMT
Watching the Saarebas kill himself is something I will never forget. The Qun is beyond discipline and the simplicity of defining a role is paramount.
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Post by phoray on Sept 19, 2016 15:37:59 GMT
I think this is about the free will, but no one of them right or wrong answers. He wants to return to the qun. Mostly, my Hawke replied, "If he wants…" But hot-headed Hawke mentions that he/Anders is a mage, the qunari squad attack his group; from then it almost does not matter, ... that is, I tried both: the more "Andrastian" answer ( "I can not allow"), and also the free-will answer. Hawke can not save his life, so: I prefer the free-will answer: he is not Andrastian, and don't want to be Tal-Vashot. Are you saying you did not hand him over and then allowed him to self immolate? Or are you saying that handing him over is the free will answer, because Hawke says, "If it's his wish." ??
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Post by phoray on Sept 19, 2016 15:40:47 GMT
Depends on how evil I want to be... On my canon, i fought the Qunari for him though. On my current playthrough, I gave him the Qunari with no protest (besides for Anders in the background...) Which one is the evil one then? See, the first two times I tried to "Save him." And thought that was the best outcome for a good Hawke. As an "Evil Hawke" I gave him up to the Qunari. But then all the following lines were about how awesome and respectful and honorable I was. I guess for accepting that their culture is not my culture. So, I was trying to be evil, and then the game actually made me feel like I'd done the right thing. So, now I am unsure of which is the "good" choice and wondered what others had to say.
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Post by phoray on Sept 19, 2016 15:41:46 GMT
I don't think there's right answer. He wants to return to Qun, despite knowing what'll happen to him. Should we go against his will? Or should we fight for his freedom? Hawke doesn't know that this ends up the same way - in Ketojan's death. So this really boils down to Hawke's beliefs. Personally, most of my pts I fight for his freedom (since I mostly play my canon Hawke and that's how she reacts), but I have no preference. Fighting for someone's freedom against their will is an odd idea isn't it? Worth exploring?
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Post by Catilina on Sept 19, 2016 16:09:41 GMT
I think this is about the free will, but no one of them right or wrong answers. He wants to return to the qun. Mostly, my Hawke replied, "If he wants…" But hot-headed Hawke mentions that he/Anders is a mage, the qunari squad attack his group; from then it almost does not matter, ... that is, I tried both: the more "Andrastian" answer ( "I can not allow"), and also the free-will answer. Hawke can not save his life, so: I prefer the free-will answer: he is not Andrastian, and don't want to be Tal-Vashot. Are you saying you did not hand him over and then allowed him to self immolate? Or are you saying that handing him over is the free will answer, because Hawke says, "If it's his wish." ?? I prefer the "If it's his wish". But no once I choose the "I also a mage" version, and they attacked Hawke... So: both...
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Post by phoray on Sept 19, 2016 17:07:48 GMT
Are you saying you did not hand him over and then allowed him to self immolate? Or are you saying that handing him over is the free will answer, because Hawke says, "If it's his wish." ?? I prefer the "If it's his wish". But no once I choose the "I also a mage" version, and they attacked Hawke... So: both... I had managed not to bring any mages with me. I feel like I had Varric, Aveline, and Fenris. So the option to spill the beans wasn't there. Also, I thought I was being Evil by tossing him to the Qunari and accidentally came out seeming nicer than I intended; hence the OP. If I ever do Evil Hawke again, I'll bring a mage and fess the beans so the decision is taken away. But man, evil Hawke was evil. I don't know if I can handle another one. @_@
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Post by Catilina on Sept 19, 2016 17:17:18 GMT
I prefer the "If it's his wish". But no once I choose the "I also a mage" version, and they attacked Hawke... So: both... I had managed not to bring any mages with me. I feel like I had Varric, Aveline, and Fenris. So the option to spill the beans wasn't there. Also, I thought I was being Evil by tossing him to the Qunari and accidentally came out seeming nicer than I intended; hence the OP. If I ever do Evil Hawke again, I'll bring a mage and fess the beans so the decision is taken away. But man, evil Hawke was evil. I don't know if I can handle another one. @_@ Oh, sometimes I like provoke everyone with this ... as Anders. (How Carver hates, when Hawke talk to Cullen about mage rights and bad Circles!)
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Post by phoray on Sept 19, 2016 17:23:57 GMT
I had managed not to bring any mages with me. I feel like I had Varric, Aveline, and Fenris. So the option to spill the beans wasn't there. Also, I thought I was being Evil by tossing him to the Qunari and accidentally came out seeming nicer than I intended; hence the OP. If I ever do Evil Hawke again, I'll bring a mage and fess the beans so the decision is taken away. But man, evil Hawke was evil. I don't know if I can handle another one. @_@ Oh, sometimes I like provoke everyone with this ... as Anders. (How Carver hates, when Hawke talk to Cullen about mage rights and bad Circles!) Provoke everyone with this....? Provoke the Qunari? The companions? I haven't had a rivaled Carver yet. My pro Circle mage was good friends with him by end of Act 1, and he got locked in by Legacy to Friendship. I'm going to miss my friend Carver....
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Post by Catilina on Sept 19, 2016 17:27:36 GMT
Oh, sometimes I like provoke everyone with this ... as Anders. (How Carver hates, when Hawke talk to Cullen about mage rights and bad Circles!) Provoke everyone with this....? Provoke the Qunari? The companions? I haven't had a rivaled Carver yet. My pro Circle mage was good friends with him by end of Act 1, and he got locked in by Legacy to Friendship. I'm going to miss my friend Carver.... With "I'm a mage / I have mage firends"! (Sorry, If sometimes my wording not understandable.) All of my Hawkes was rivalry with him. More or less.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2016 18:02:24 GMT
Depends on how evil I want to be... On my canon, i fought the Qunari for him though. On my current playthrough, I gave him the Qunari with no protest (besides for Anders in the background...) Which one is the evil one then? See, the first two times I tried to "Save him." And thought that was the best outcome for a good Hawke. As an "Evil Hawke" I gave him up to the Qunari. But then all the following lines were about how awesome and respectful and honorable I was. I guess for accepting that their culture is not my culture. So, I was trying to be evil, and then the game actually made me feel like I'd done the right thing. So, now I am unsure of which is the "good" choice and wondered what others had to say. My canon. My canon Hawke was a goodie two shoes, who are friends with Anders.
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Post by lordofwar on Sept 20, 2016 1:26:10 GMT
Saarebas are brainwashed and tortured from the moment their magic manifests. The one in the quest honestly doesn't have the capacity to believe in anything but the Qun, and that is crime the Arvaraad is at least partially responsible for. Never give him back, always kill them.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 20, 2016 1:29:25 GMT
Saarebas are brainwashed and tortured from the moment their magic manifests. The one in the quest honestly doesn't have the capacity to believe in anything but the Qun, and that is crime the Arvaraad is at least partially responsible for. Never give him back, always kill them. Brainwashed or not, according to his will. He believe, that this is right thing. Hawke don't have time for missionary work. But of course, I have no objection to killing them... They have weapons, they are able to use that, then it's not a murder...
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Post by lordofwar on Sept 20, 2016 1:38:39 GMT
Saarebas are brainwashed and tortured from the moment their magic manifests. The one in the quest honestly doesn't have the capacity to believe in anything but the Qun, and that is crime the Arvaraad is at least partially responsible for. Never give him back, always kill them. Brainwashed or not, according to his will. He believe, that this is right thing. Hawke don't have time for missionary work. But of course, I have no objection to killing them... They have weapons, they are able to use that, then it's not a murder... His 'will' has been subverted since the moment the Qunari discovered he had magic. No one chooses to become a Saarebas, they are made one, from a person to a "Dangerous Thing." He doesn't have genuine belief, but one that was forcibly implanted. He needed somewhere he could recover from what had been done to him, and someone more willing to really help him than Petrice, not to kill himself.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 20, 2016 1:56:31 GMT
Brainwashed or not, according to his will. He believe, that this is right thing. Hawke don't have time for missionary work. But of course, I have no objection to killing them... They have weapons, they are able to use that, then it's not a murder... His 'will' has been subverted since the moment the Qunari discovered he had magic. No one chooses to become a Saarebas, they are made one, from a person to a "Dangerous Thing." He doesn't have genuine belief, but one that was forcibly implanted. He needed somewhere he could recover from what had been done to him, and someone more willing to really help him than Petrice, not to kill himself. Are you saved him? (oops, maybe this sounds a bit qunari...)
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Trouble-shooting Space Diva
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Post by melbella on Sept 20, 2016 2:36:10 GMT
I prefer the "If it's his wish". But no once I choose the "I also a mage" version, and they attacked Hawke... So: both... I had managed not to bring any mages with me. I feel like I had Varric, Aveline, and Fenris. So the option to spill the beans wasn't there. Also, I thought I was being Evil by tossing him to the Qunari and accidentally came out seeming nicer than I intended; hence the OP. If I ever do Evil Hawke again, I'll bring a mage and fess the beans so the decision is taken away. But man, evil Hawke was evil. I don't know if I can handle another one. @_@
Well, just because the qunari thought you did a good thing (according to their rules) doesn't mean you did a good thing according to your own (or Hawke's) rules. I guess the question is, does Evil Hawke support the Qun? If not, then handing him over was a bad thing.
I don't think I've ever handed him over. I either use the "I'm a mage/I like mages" line and they attack immediately, or I refuse and they attack. However, when it comes to talking with Saarabas afterwards, I always let him make his own choice. I don't think I've ever picked the "I won't allow it" option. At that point, you'd be just another enforcer denying free will.
My reaction to what happens usually mirrors Anders though: "Of all the misguided....." blah blah blah.
Trying to argue logic with a qunari is like arguing with an AI programmed to calculate 1+1 = 3.
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Post by phoray on Sept 20, 2016 2:56:01 GMT
I had managed not to bring any mages with me. I feel like I had Varric, Aveline, and Fenris. So the option to spill the beans wasn't there. Also, I thought I was being Evil by tossing him to the Qunari and accidentally came out seeming nicer than I intended; hence the OP. If I ever do Evil Hawke again, I'll bring a mage and fess the beans so the decision is taken away. But man, evil Hawke was evil. I don't know if I can handle another one. @_@
Well, just because the qunari thought you did a good thing (according to their rules) doesn't mean you did a good thing according to your own (or Hawke's) rules. I guess the question is, does Evil Hawke support the Qun? If not, then handing him over was a bad thing.
I don't think I've ever handed him over. I either use the "I'm a mage/I like mages" line and they attack immediately, or I refuse and they attack. However, when it comes to talking with Saarabas afterwards, I always let him make his own choice. I don't think I've ever picked the "I won't allow it" option. At that point, you'd be just another enforcer denying free will.
My reaction to what happens usually mirrors Anders though: "Of all the misguided....." blah blah blah.
Trying to argue logic with a qunari is like arguing with an AI programmed to calculate 1+1 = 3.
I think Ketojan prefers being handed over, from his response. I think Hawke says, "my job was to bring you out of the city. I get paid either way. Do what you want." I guess I know that Ketojan is a product of the Qun teachings, but it could be said you are supporting him in that decision. Whereas to keep him from the Qunari is forcing your "you must live as I do or you're not really free" agenda. The latter is what I felt when I saw the former the first time. Am I really helping Ketojan or just pushing my own version of what is right on him?
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by melbella on Sept 20, 2016 3:03:24 GMT
I think refusing to hand him over keeps him from being murdered and then he is free to choose his own path. Even if it leads to the same place (death) at least it was something he chose rather than something that was done to him.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 20, 2016 3:11:46 GMT
I think refusing to hand him over keeps him from being murdered and then he is free to choose his own path. Even if it leads to the same place (death) at least it was something he chose rather than something that was done to him. He wants to go back to the Qun. It's not bad thing on his viewpoint, I think. He believe, this is right.
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Post by phoray on Sept 20, 2016 3:19:53 GMT
I think refusing to hand him over keeps him from being murdered and then he is free to choose his own path. Even if it leads to the same place (death) at least it was something he chose rather than something that was done to him. This argument is full of win and I accept it.
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