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Post by straykat on Sept 20, 2016 12:03:55 GMT
The choice to die, if he wants to be that crazy.
I won't control him like the Qun will.
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Dabrikishaw
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Jade Empire
Posts: 182 Likes: 204
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Post by Dabrikishaw on Sept 20, 2016 15:52:20 GMT
The best choice for Kertojan is the one he wants. She he wants to accept his role in the Qun, that's the ideal in my mind.
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Post by lordofwar on Sept 20, 2016 20:56:51 GMT
The best choice for Kertojan is the one he wants. She he wants to accept his role in the Qun, that's the ideal in my mind. But why does he want it? Because he's been tortured and brainwashed for his entire life. "Accepting his role" is something conditioned, not believed.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 20, 2016 21:17:13 GMT
The best choice for Kertojan is the one he wants. She he wants to accept his role in the Qun, that's the ideal in my mind. But why does he want it? Because he's been tortured and brainwashed for his entire life. "Accepting his role" is something conditioned, not believed.Despite he still want this. Hawke don't have enough time and qualification for assess his state of mind, as I think.
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Post by lordofwar on Sept 21, 2016 4:16:30 GMT
But why does he want it? Because he's been tortured and brainwashed for his entire life. "Accepting his role" is something conditioned, not believed.Despite he still want this. Hawke don't have enough time and qualification for assess his state of mind, as I think. There's no need to assess him. What he 'wants' is what he has been trained to do; saarebas spend their lives being tormented and brainwashed. He isn't capable of making a real choice.
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Post by phoray on Sept 21, 2016 8:23:20 GMT
Can you actually order him to not kill himself? "I won't allow it." Gets you what? I've never clicked. Seemed so disrespectful.
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Post by Ieldra on Sept 21, 2016 9:40:45 GMT
In my view, everyone should have full and complete sovereignity over their lives. Letting him choose to go back, and not attempting to interfere with his killing himself if the situation has deteriorated into a fight, those are the good options.
I guess some people rationalize that he's brainwashed, but you do not know that. Simply that it's a decision you can't comprehend doesn't justify forcing your view on him.
In my games, the situation usually deteriorates into a fight because I mention I'm a mage. After that, I do not interfere with his suicide. Ironically, respecting his wish in that is exactly what makes me different from the followers of the Qun. Of course they fail to understand that.
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Post by Ieldra on Sept 21, 2016 9:57:41 GMT
The best choice for Kertojan is the one he wants. She he wants to accept his role in the Qun, that's the ideal in my mind. But why does he want it? Because he's been tortured and brainwashed for his entire life. "Accepting his role" is something conditioned, not believed.You do not know that. You can't plausibly claim that it is not possible for a person to genuinely want to live under the Qun, and their views on magic are consistent: if he believes he's been corrupted by contact with unchained magic, and there is no cure for such a condition, acceptance of death is rational. Ultimately, it's every person's decision to break their conditioning. You can't do more than open the door of their cage and assure them that going through is ok as best as you can. If they still won't leave, you have to respect that. Otherwise you're no better than the Qun.
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Post by lordofwar on Sept 21, 2016 10:57:46 GMT
In my view, everyone should have full and complete sovereignity over their lives. Letting him choose to go back, and not attempting to interfere with his killing himself if the situation has deteriorated into a fight, those are the good options. I guess some people rationalize that he's brainwashed, but you do not know that. Simply that it's a decision you can't comprehend doesn't justify forcing your view on him. In my games, the situation usually deteriorates into a fight because I mention I'm a mage. After that, I do not interfere with his suicide. Ironically, respecting his wish in that is exactly what makes me different from the followers of the Qun. Of course they fail to understand that. Ideally, everyone would have the kind of sovereignty you're talking about, but the fact is some people are not capable of exercising it, because of mental illness or other trauma (like, say, being a saarebas). I can't respect Ketojan's 'choice' here because he actually hasn't made one: the dictates of the Qun branded into his mind have. He's never had the opportunity for another choice, and doesn't understand the reality of what he's being offered. Letting a person kill themselves over inflicted mental trauma is wrong.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 21, 2016 11:07:31 GMT
In my view, everyone should have full and complete sovereignity over their lives. Letting him choose to go back, and not attempting to interfere with his killing himself if the situation has deteriorated into a fight, those are the good options. I guess some people rationalize that he's brainwashed, but you do not know that. Simply that it's a decision you can't comprehend doesn't justify forcing your view on him. In my games, the situation usually deteriorates into a fight because I mention I'm a mage. After that, I do not interfere with his suicide. Ironically, respecting his wish in that is exactly what makes me different from the followers of the Qun. Of course they fail to understand that. Ideally, everyone would have the kind of sovereignty you're talking about, but the fact is some people are not capable of exercising it, because of mental illness or other trauma (like, say, being a saarebas). I can't respect Ketojan's 'choice' here because he actually hasn't made one: the dictates of the Qun branded into his mind have. He's never had the opportunity for another choice, and doesn't understand the reality of what he's being offered. Letting a person kill themselves over inflicted mental trauma is wrong. How do you know that he do not understand? And once more: can you keep him alive, and teach him your truth? No. You can only take away his first and last chance to choose.
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Post by lordofwar on Sept 21, 2016 11:14:16 GMT
Ideally, everyone would have the kind of sovereignty you're talking about, but the fact is some people are not capable of exercising it, because of mental illness or other trauma (like, say, being a saarebas). I can't respect Ketojan's 'choice' here because he actually hasn't made one: the dictates of the Qun branded into his mind have. He's never had the opportunity for another choice, and doesn't understand the reality of what he's being offered. Letting a person kill themselves over inflicted mental trauma is wrong. How do you know that he do not you understand? And once more: can you keep him alive, and teach him your truth? No. You can only take away his first and last chance to choose. What, take away his chance to kill himself over what has been done to him his whole life to help him recover and make a more informed decision? How awful! If he wants to kill himself later, fine. But at the moment he decided, he isn't in state of mind healthy enough to handle that kind of choice. Are you going to tell me the man locked in the gimp torture suit with his mouth sewn shut hasn't undergone significant trauma? That he's really capable of thinking it all through?
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∯ Alien Wizard
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Sept 14, 2023 6:08:41 GMT
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4,771
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Ieldra on Sept 21, 2016 11:21:35 GMT
In my view, everyone should have full and complete sovereignity over their lives. Letting him choose to go back, and not attempting to interfere with his killing himself if the situation has deteriorated into a fight, those are the good options. I guess some people rationalize that he's brainwashed, but you do not know that. Simply that it's a decision you can't comprehend doesn't justify forcing your view on him. In my games, the situation usually deteriorates into a fight because I mention I'm a mage. After that, I do not interfere with his suicide. Ironically, respecting his wish in that is exactly what makes me different from the followers of the Qun. Of course they fail to understand that. Ideally, everyone would have the kind of sovereignty you're talking about, but the fact is some people are not capable of exercising it, because of mental illness or other trauma (like, say, being a saarebas). I can't respect Ketojan's 'choice' here because he actually hasn't made one: the dictates of the Qun branded into his mind have. He's never had the opportunity for another choice, and doesn't understand the reality of what he's being offered. Letting a person kill themselves over inflicted mental trauma is wrong. Again, you do not know that "he doesn't make a decision". You can't read minds, and you can't just assume that he can't make a decision just because such a decision would be incomprehensible to *you*. Also, just assuming mental illness for the same reason makes you a totalitarian: you claim the right to pronounce another mentally ill because he doesn't agree with your values. Don't we know that from somewhere? I actually have some experience with situations like that. I had a girlfriend who was in a cult. We broke up because of that. It was not a bad breakup as breakups go. I explained my opinion, said that from my view, she was like a beautiful bird sitting in a cage and asked if she didn't want to fly. She didn't even disagree, but couldn't leave. IMO, attempting to do more would've been hugely disrespectful, I wouldn't do it. Two years later, she contacted me and told me she had left and that I had helped her. We never came together again, but it was good. I maintain that all you can do is open the door and assure the person in question that it's ok to leave. Step out they must on their own.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 21, 2016 11:24:12 GMT
How do you know that he do not you understand? And once more: can you keep him alive, and teach him your truth? No. You can only take away his first and last chance to choose. What, take away his chance to kill himself over what has been done to him his whole life to help him recover and make a more informed decision? How awful! If he wants to kill himself later, fine. But at the moment he decided, he isn't in state of mind healthy enough to handle that kind of choice. Are you going to tell me the man locked in the gimp torture suit with his mouth sewn shut hasn't undergone significant trauma? That he's really capable of thinking it all through? I'm sorry, I have not seen him like an idiot. On the other hand I knew he would never decide for himself. I don't see that's a bad thing. His mouth was sewn, not his mind. He never asked for mind healing. But you know better. Good. Oh! How much people I seen, who know: what is the only good way!
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Post by lordofwar on Sept 21, 2016 11:32:22 GMT
Ideally, everyone would have the kind of sovereignty you're talking about, but the fact is some people are not capable of exercising it, because of mental illness or other trauma (like, say, being a saarebas). I can't respect Ketojan's 'choice' here because he actually hasn't made one: the dictates of the Qun branded into his mind have. He's never had the opportunity for another choice, and doesn't understand the reality of what he's being offered. Letting a person kill themselves over inflicted mental trauma is wrong. Again, you do not know that "he doesn't make a decision". You can't read minds, and you can't just assume that he can't make decision just because such a decision would be incomprehensible to *you*. Also, just assuming mental illness for the same reason makes you a totalitarian: you claim the right to pronounce another mentally ill because he doesn't agree with your values. Don't we know that from somewhere? I actually have some experience with situations like that. I had a girlfriend who was in a cult. We broke up because of that. It was not a bad breakup as breakups go. I explained my opinion, said that from my view, she was like a beautiful bird sitting in a cage and asked if she didn't want to fly. She didn't even disagree, but couldn't leave. IMO, attempting to do more would've been hugely disrespectful, I wouldn't do it. Two years later, she contacted me and told me she had left and that I had helped her. We never came together again, but it was good. I'm not pronouncing him mentally ill, I'm recognizing that Ketojan has suffered. Immensely. Just looking at him confirms this: his mouth, his suit, everything we know about saarebas: they aren't there by choice, and what they go through is a living hell. How could anyone not be traumatized by that? How could he make an informed decision of any kind when the only information and context he has are what the Qun has forced on him? He can't. Thank you for sharing, but I suppose this is where we disagree. I just don't think all beliefs are inherently worthy of reverence or respect just for existing.
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Post by lordofwar on Sept 21, 2016 11:36:07 GMT
What, take away his chance to kill himself over what has been done to him his whole life to help him recover and make a more informed decision? How awful! If he wants to kill himself later, fine. But at the moment he decided, he isn't in state of mind healthy enough to handle that kind of choice. Are you going to tell me the man locked in the gimp torture suit with his mouth sewn shut hasn't undergone significant trauma? That he's really capable of thinking it all through? I'm sorry, I have not seen him like an idiot. On the other hand I knew he would never decide for himself. I don't see that's a bad thing. His mouth was sewn, not his mind. He never asked for mind healing. But you know better. Good. Oh! How much people I seen, who know: what is the only good way! I don't think he's an idiot, I think he's been hurt, and that his condition couldn't be mentally sound. Or should we let people with PTSD just kill themselves too?
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Ieldra on Sept 21, 2016 11:43:37 GMT
Thank you for sharing, but I suppose this is where we disagree. I just don't think all beliefs are inherently worthy of reverence or respect just for existing. I do not respect the Qun and its belief system, not at all. In fact, I really hate it and I have never hesitated to say so, but nonetheless I respect anyone's right to make decisions about their lives based on it, if they so desire. Its the same with religious freedom in RL: I don't respect all beliefs equally, and I find the demand to "respect everyone's faith" ludicrous. In fact, I'd be hard pressed to find a religious belief I respect at all. Nonetheless, I respect people's decisions to shape their own lives (not those of others, including their children) by their faith, regardless of what I think of that faith itself. It's their life, not mine, and they should have sovereignity over it.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 21, 2016 11:43:38 GMT
I'm sorry, I have not seen him like an idiot. On the other hand I knew he would never decide for himself. I don't see that's a bad thing. His mouth was sewn, not his mind. He never asked for mind healing. But you know better. Good. Oh! How much people I seen, who know: what is the only good way! I don't think he's an idiot, I think he's been hurt, and that his condition couldn't be mentally sound. Or should we let people with PTSD just kill themselves too? Okay, you won. Take him to a mental institution.
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Post by lordofwar on Sept 21, 2016 11:47:52 GMT
Thank you for sharing, but I suppose this is where we disagree. I just don't think all beliefs are inherently worthy of reverence or respect just for existing. I do not respect the Qun and its belief system, not at all. In fact, I really hate it and I have never hesitated to say so, but nonetheless I respect anyone's right to make decisions about their lives based on it, if they so desire. Its the same with religious freedom in RL: I don't respect all beliefs equally, and I find the demand to "respect everyone's faith" ludicrous. In fact, I'd be hard pressed to find a religious belief I respect at all. Nonetheless, I respect people's decisions to shape their own lives (not those of others, including their children) by their faith, regardless of what I think of that faith itself. It's their life, not mine, and they should have sovereignity over it. And this brings us back to my point: how capable is Ketojan of exercising that sovereignty?
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Ieldra on Sept 21, 2016 11:59:23 GMT
I'm sorry, I have not seen him like an idiot. On the other hand I knew he would never decide for himself. I don't see that's a bad thing. His mouth was sewn, not his mind. He never asked for mind healing. But you know better. Good. Oh! How much people I seen, who know: what is the only good way! I don't think he's an idiot, I think he's been hurt, and that his condition couldn't be mentally sound. Or should we let people with PTSD just kill themselves too? If it's a sustained death wish and all talking doesn't help, IMO you'll have to let them go. Being forced to live against your will is a fate worse than death. Having said that, AFAIK most of those people are still open to talking. And this brings us back to my point: how capable is Ketojan of exercising that sovereignty? Ketojan seemed pretty clear about what he wanted. He wasn't deranged or incoherent, and as odd as it sounds, he didn't even seem to be in pain. Were this a real situation, I would've asked more questions before making a decision, and I might've asked to give me a chance and wait another day, but in the end it comes down to respecting his wish or not. And I found insufficient reason not to respect it.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 21, 2016 12:05:53 GMT
I'm always against the self killing. This is NOT a solution. But I'm not against the free will and the free choice. He just want to back to qun. So: Let him go!
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Sept 14, 2023 6:08:41 GMT
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Ieldra on Sept 21, 2016 12:08:29 GMT
I'm always against the self killing. This is NOT a solution. But I'm not against the free will and the free choice. He just want to back to qun. So: Let him go! A solution it may not be, but it is an escape. Sometimes, that's all that matters anymore.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Sept 21, 2016 12:16:50 GMT
I'm always against the self killing. This is NOT a solution. But I'm not against the free will and the free choice. He just want to back to qun. So: Let him go! A solution it may not be, but it is an escape. Sometimes, that's all that matters anymore. It did not change the fact that not a solution. The escape either. But it is another matter. I did not see this was an escape, but rather a kind of purification. (If he cannot live with honor, he want to die with honor.) In any case, Qun interesting...
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Beerfish
N7
Little Pumpkin
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: Beerfish
XBL Gamertag: Beerfish77
Posts: 14,981 Likes: 35,703
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Little Pumpkin
314
0
35,703
Beerfish
14,981
August 2016
beerfish
https://bsn.boards.net/user/314/personal
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Beerfish on Sept 21, 2016 16:34:09 GMT
The big question is, is free will = free will if you are brain washed?
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Post by Catilina on Sept 21, 2016 17:56:20 GMT
The big question is, is free will = free will if you are brain washed? The other interesting questions is: whether do we able to restore the original mind, if he brainwashed? (I think not. Then we can only work with his current will...) And we know, what would he think, if he would not brainwashed? And we sure, that he is brainwashed?
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Beerfish
N7
Little Pumpkin
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: Beerfish
XBL Gamertag: Beerfish77
Posts: 14,981 Likes: 35,703
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Little Pumpkin
314
0
35,703
Beerfish
14,981
August 2016
beerfish
https://bsn.boards.net/user/314/personal
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Beerfish77
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Post by Beerfish on Sept 21, 2016 19:01:29 GMT
The big question is, is free will = free will if you are brain washed? The other interesting questions is: whether do we able to restore the original mind, if he brainwashed? (I think not. Then we can only work with his current will...) And we know, what would he think, if he would not brainwashed? And we sure, that he is brainwashed? This is where I see a total disconnect between people that are 1005 totally pro mage and yet are not 100% against the Quanri and the Qun since mages under the Qunari are treated far worse than any mages in a circle tower. As far as brain washing goes my base assumption is that normal being would not be happy having their lips sewn shut, being chained and iron masked and being essentially property of others who told you what to do at every turn and the fact that the being would rather immolate themselves than to face another way of existing.
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