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Post by Catilina on Sept 21, 2016 19:23:28 GMT
The other interesting questions is: whether do we able to restore the original mind, if he brainwashed? (I think not. Then we can only work with his current will...) And we know, what would he think, if he would not brainwashed? And we sure, that he is brainwashed? This is where I see a total disconnect between people that are 1005 totally pro mage and yet are not 100% against the Quanri and the Qun since mages under the Qunari are treated far worse than any mages in a circle tower. As far as brain washing goes my base assumption is that normal being would not be happy having their lips sewn shut, being chained and iron masked and being essentially property of others who told you what to do at every turn and the fact that the being would rather immolate themselves than to face another way of existing. For example I'm 100% against the qun (okay, maybe ~99% – I can not rule out the possibility, that I can find some good thing in the qun). It's a dangerous bullshit. But you can't free a man, who choose the slavery or the death instead of freedom. But if you want, that he feel the freedom, you can get him the the chance of free choice.
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Post by Ieldra on Sept 22, 2016 9:18:14 GMT
The big question is, is free will = free will if you are brain washed? Not quite. The questions are rather "Can you determine if someone is brainwashed" and "Where is the borderline between cultural conditioning and brainwashing". People have followed extremely restrictive ideologies as long as the human species exists, for all we know, and one of the psychological mechanisms leading to that is "An affirmation of faith is worth more if it costs you more". I find it completely incomprehensible how people can want to follow such ideologies, but they do. Some people will do almost anything for a sense of belonging. As for free will, that's a delusion. Nobody is a blank slate, everyone has been subject to some cultural conditioning, and for everyone, there are decisions they will never make because of what they are, or have become, or have been conditioned to be. You can imagine yourself making different decisions than you do, but in fact there are some you would never make unless having been subject to a significant amount of added cultural conditioning. Personally, I think that any education strongly dominated by an ideology, if the educator has power over the educated (such as adults have over children), amounts to brainwashing. So yes, Ketojan is almost certainly brainwashed by my standards, but where do I draw the line for intervention? If he were incoherent, mentally confused, emotionally unstable, conflicted or anything like that, I might see some justification, but since he's completely clear in his mind and appears to know what he wants, I'm not seeing it. I can't force people to be free, and there are people, even in our culture, who appear to be happier with less freedom. I couldn't live without freedom of the mind, roaming the spaces of human thought and imagination without being restricted by an ideology that tells me certain spaces are forbidden, or certain conclusions evil, but I'm quite happy in a stable job rather than being self-employed, because I'd hate having to deal with people all day. For others it may be the other way.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2016 10:31:46 GMT
I've played it both ways, and the writing stands up I have to say. I'm left with totally different feelings each time. Two of my Hawkes were like 'you wot mate??', defending him only for him to want to die anyway. And one was like 'yeah sure have him' and just shrugged and walked off, thinking all Qunari are nuts.
I like the differences, they help to define my Hawkes which is really cool. Even though it all ends the same way, both options leave a very different impression. I don't think I have a favourite, but the scene is an important barometer of the type of character you want to play, and also tells the player a lot about the Qun. It's pretty great for solidifying a mage's hatred of the Qun (if you want to go that way).
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Post by ioannisdenton on Sept 22, 2016 17:11:37 GMT
quest like this makes da2 a great game for me!!
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Post by Catilina on Sept 22, 2016 23:20:07 GMT
For example I'm 100% against the qun (okay, maybe ~99% – I can not rule out the possibility, that I can find some good thing in the qun). It's a dangerous bullshit. But you can't free a man, who choose the slavery or the death instead of freedom. But if you want, that he feel the freedom, you can get him the the chance of free choice.I would never has associated free will with the Qunari and you've made me look at the quest in a whole other way- it's very interesting, thank you. Ketojan helped Hawke which I think is going against the Qun. He could have killed or at least attacked Hawke at the wounded coast but he didn't again going against the Qun.
In saying "I do not want to die. I want to live by the Qun." Ketojan understands that Hawke is trying to free him and telling him to go live, be free but that the choice is Ketojans alone to make. Follow his beliefs and die or throw out those beliefs and live. Maybe he did make that choice willingly. And in that split second Ketojan had the freedom of choice to make his own decision.
I think that's what you are saying? Yes?
I now am thinking that if Ketojan had more time and might have been able to choose life, life from slavery.
It is such a sad quest. And this idea makes it that more so. Exactly
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Post by MissOuJ on Sept 25, 2016 17:27:42 GMT
I've played it both ways, and the writing stands up I have to say. I'm left with totally different feelings each time. Two of my Hawkes were like 'you wot mate??', defending him only for him to want to die anyway. And one was like 'yeah sure have him' and just shrugged and walked off, thinking all Qunari are nuts. I like the differences, they help to define my Hawkes which is really cool. Even though it all ends the same way, both options leave a very different impression. I don't think I have a favourite, but the scene is an important barometer of the type of character you want to play, and also tells the player a lot about the Qun. It's pretty great for solidifying a mage's hatred of the Qun (if you want to go that way). Yeah, I feel like that mission is more about fleshing out your character's beliefs and relationship with magic and the Qun vs Chantry than it is about magic or Qun or Petrice's version of the Chantry. Although the outcome is identical, the intent behind the actions matter, both for Hawke and for Ketojan IMO. I prefer fighting for his freedom and letting him to make the decision to die - from the dialogue, it feels like its important to him to get to... I don't know, reaffirm himself, since it seems like he doesn't feel like it's a decision at all. Also, if you tell the Arishok what Ketojan did, he sounds... proud? Admiring? Since the Qun was obviously something Ketojan believed in (no matter how flawed or problematic or wrong it might be), the fact that he achieved the Arishok's admiration posthumously seems like something he might've appreciated. Then again sometimes that decision is taken out of your hands, since if your Hawke mentions that s/he's a mage, the Qunari patrol lose their shit and attack you regardless of what you were intending to do... which, again, a great way to drive home the Qun's absolute hatred and distrust of magic: one moment you're having a semi-civilized conversation, and just a moment later they're aiming their spears at you. Edited because spelling is hard apparently.
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Post by melbella on Sept 25, 2016 17:35:14 GMT
It's interesting when that happens. If you don't tell them you're a mage, they have no idea. For a society so worried about coming into contact with anything so uncontrollable, you'd think they'd be able to recognize a mage on sight, smell them even by the lyrium. They only react once you tell them, which is kind of an interesting commentary on socially constructed reality. Knowledge/truth of you (or a companion) being a mage leads them to go nuts and attack you. Whereas while they are (for whatever reason) oblivious, they have no problem talking to you in a polite manner. At least until you refuse to hand over Ketojan.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 25, 2016 17:42:28 GMT
It's interesting when that happens. If you don't tell them you're a mage, they have no idea. For a society so worried about coming into contact with anything so uncontrollable, you'd think they'd be able to recognize a mage on sight, smell them even by the lyrium. They only react once you tell them, which is kind of an interesting commentary on socially constructed reality. Knowledge/truth of you (or a companion) being a mage leads them to go nuts and attack you. Whereas while they are (for whatever reason) oblivious, they have no problem talking to you in a polite manner. At least until you refuse to hand over Ketojan. A mage is recognizable, as I see. Why should be? Few people feel the magic and they are mostly also mages. Mages smells for lyrium? I don't think, maybe the Templars... Mages do not consume lyrium permanent, only for the amplify the magic effect.
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Post by phoray on Sept 30, 2016 16:58:27 GMT
I'm just kinda happy that this thread got to 3 pages of discussion. Even 6 years later, and probably multiple play throughs for everyone, we are still chewing on the decision in regards to Freedom, Free Will, Free Choice. I've really enjoyed the discussion, changed my mind a bit, but still, I know in the future , that I will still struggle a bit about which route is the "good" choice.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 30, 2016 17:01:18 GMT
I'm just kinda happy that this thread got to 3 pages of discussion. Even 6 years later, and probably multiple play throughs for everyone, we are still chewing on the decision in regards to Freedom, Free Will, Free Choice. I've really enjoyed the discussion, changed my mind a bit, but still, I know in the future , that I will still struggle a bit about which route is the "good" choice. I also enjoy this thread, this is an interest question, and a good quest.
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Post by HYR on Oct 8, 2016 2:10:49 GMT
Best choice is to get Arvarad to attack you. That way you get Saarebaas and his awesome dialogue without righteously trying to shove "FREEDAHM!!!" down the throat of someone whom you never asked if he wants it.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 8, 2016 2:23:39 GMT
Best choice is to get Arvarad to attack you. That way you get Saarebaas and his awesome dialogue without righteously trying to shove "FREEDAHM!!!" down the throat of someone whom you never asked if he wants it. Free choice = freedom. If you let him choose, hi will be free.
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Post by HYR on Oct 8, 2016 16:44:21 GMT
Truth be told, when Petrice tried to put Hawke up to that task even the first time I played DA2, I tried to reject it. As a player, you do not really want to miss out on any game content, but this just felt like bad news from the get-go. Yeah, you want to help a guy, but this is still basically an illegal activity (smuggling), one that will upset relations with a visiting foreign power.
And, again, nobody asked him what he wants.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 8, 2016 16:49:24 GMT
Truth be told, when Petrice tried to put Hawke up to that task even the first time I played DA2, I tried to reject it. I mean yeah, you want to help a guy, but this is still basically an illegal activity (smuggling) that will upset relations with a visiting foreign power. And, again, nobody asked him what he wants. I was convinced that one thing he certainly not want to: to stay with Petrice and her Templar friend... so was not to hard to accept the quest.
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