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Post by DomeWing333 on Jun 27, 2017 22:04:04 GMT
You guys should probably change the description of the Off Topic forum.
Also,
Oh, and as an actual suggestion, I'll propose that the Politics thread be specifically devoted to discussion of, well, politics and allow other issues such as gender, sociology, religion, etc. to be discussed in their own threads. It seems unnecessary to lump them all of these wide-ranging topics into one (notoriously insular) thread.
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Post by DomeWing333 on Jun 28, 2017 1:59:24 GMT
Oh, and as an actual suggestion, I'll propose that the Politics thread be specifically devoted to discussion of, well, politics and allow other issues such as gender, sociology, religion, etc. to be discussed in their own threads. It seems unnecessary to lump them all of these wide-ranging topics into one (notoriously insular) thread.
Disagree. Think the Politics thread should be left as is. Politics encompasses a lot of issues. Why restrict it unless one wants to close it down. Everyone on the board is free to come into the Politics threads. All viewpoints are welcome. Unless one is scared of differing viewpoints, humor and fun. You and I likely have differing definitions of the word "welcome."
Regardless, I don't mind the Politics thread serving as something of a clubhouse or a place to express to discuss/memetically satirize politicians, policies, etc. I just don't see a reason why I should need to go there to discuss social issues that have nothing to do with those things. I can want to avoid the senseless bickering and tribe mentality of politics and still want to discuss the nature of religion and gender in the context of larger society.
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Post by DomeWing333 on Jun 28, 2017 2:37:53 GMT
Religion, social issues, gender all have to do with politics. But don't ask to limit the politics thread because you don't want to be there.That would be a nightmare to mod. Are you asking for that with specific rules of what the politics thread can and can't discuss, cause it sounds like that. And for the record I don't see a tribe mentality going on there, not everyone agrees with everyone else even among the regulars. Sometimes more in depth debates are good along with the fun memes and good natured back and forth,its politics. It's not a college debate course. It's a fun thread. Jump in and see what happens. Yes, I see everyone welcomed there and if you look around the board people who frequent the thread and disagree often talk about other topics together outside the thread. Something to consider. Or maybe start a religion thread see where that goes. There's overlap, but not to the extent that everything should fall under the category of "politics." And you can argue that politics itself falls under the category of "social issues" or even "morality," but I don't think it makes much sense to repurpose what is already a specifically politicized thread into a general purpose "talk about anything related to society" thread.
Gonna be honest: don't really care what goes on in the politics thread. As far as I'm concerned, people in there can discuss whatever they want to their heart's content (from what I can tell, you and warder seem to be discussing a theoretical WWII videogame??). What I'm asking for is simply to not have a mod go "Oh no, into the politics thread with you" any time someone brings up anything related to social issues.
We can agree to disagree on how tribish the thread is. That isn't the point.
I would start a religion thread or a gender discussion thread or a general social issues thread if I weren't pretty sure that it would be promptly closed and its contents moved into the politics thread. That's really what my concern is about.
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Post by DomeWing333 on Jun 28, 2017 3:07:45 GMT
I...don't know how you could have interpreted that to mean the exact opposite of what I just said. But, sure, I guess I'll clarify: The reason I brought up the little detour is to show that, yeah, I know the politics thread gets sidetracked the same way every thread does. The politics thread is going to delve into things that aren't related to politics; other threads are going to delve into things that are. There's always going to be overlap. But just as your discussion with warder isn't going to be moved into the video game section of the board, neither should a discussion about gender or religion be moved into the politics thread. I just told you why--
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2017 7:21:01 GMT
The last thing we need is more politics on the forum It should be kept in one place, then if you want to get involved with it you can, and if you dont you can easily avoid it Talking about politics or social issues or whatever in other threads would just turn them into more politics thread clones, it wouldnt gain anything... some here are drawn to controversial topics and cant pass up an excuse to act like morons... I kinda wish things were different, because politics doesnt need to be about "you disagree with me, therefore you are a stupid xyz" but apparently here it is, and having more threads to discuss more topics wouldnt stop that just spread it, as many threads (both nothing to do with politics whatsoever and only slightly related to politics) have shown It sucks, but I think the less of this stuff the better to be honest... not because of the topics people discuss but the way they discuss them. Want to talk about different viewpoints and ideologies, even a little destructively??? Youll here no complaints from me. But spend your entire time on the internet moaning, complaining and attacking people who arent you both inside and out of political discussions??? Then ill start having problems with you But just imagine from the moderators perspective too, not only would they have more threads to keep an eye on before their eventual and very deserved lock, but theyd have to give immunity to so many more people than they already have and it would just turn into chaos If you try to convince people to change the way politics works on this forum, youll have my full support on talking about stuff like this... but it would just cause so many problems with the way things work and the atmosphere (and the people) here... not a good idea So I disagree, I think recently the moderators have been responsible and smart in closing threads
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Post by DomeWing333 on Jun 28, 2017 7:53:18 GMT
Here's the thing though, Gen: you and I got involved in a good, reasoned discussion about gender issues earlier. That wouldn't have happened if the topic were squirreled away in the politics thread instead of being in a thread that's specifically geared towards discussion of gender issues. And I'd like to do more of that.
I want to avoid political bickering but I don't want to avoid the discussion of social issues. Right now, that's impossible. But there's no reason it should be other than that the politics thread has seemingly been arbitrarily designated as the catch-all thread for any number of important topics, political or otherwise. I'm asking for that to change.
There's no helping the way people talk about politics on here. And you know what? That's fine. People can talk about politics the way they want to talk about it. I have no interest in policing that. What I do have an interest in is discussions controversial, non-political topics on the forums without having to scroll through Trump memes and /pol/-esque rhetoric. That's not the environment for it, for multiple reasons.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2017 8:14:53 GMT
Here's the thing though, Gen: you and I got involved in a good, reasoned discussion about gender issues earlier. That wouldn't have happened if the topic were squirreled away in the politics thread instead of being in a thread that's specifically geared towards discussion of gender issues. And I'd like to do more of that. I want to avoid political bickering but I don't want to avoid the discussion of social issues. Right now, that's impossible. But there's no reason it should be other than that the politics thread has seemingly been arbitrarily designated as the catch-all thread for any number of important topics, political or otherwise. I'm asking for that to change. There's no helping the way people talk about politics on here. And you know what? That's fine. People can talk about politics the way they want to talk about it. I have no interest in policing that. What I do have an interest in is discussions controversial, non-political topics on the forums without having to scroll through Trump memes and /pol/-esque rhetoric. That's not the environment for it, for multiple reasons. But thats all it would turn into anyway... not sure what pol-esque means but im totally running with this Even if you had different threads for social issues, it would just get weighed down by the same stuff in the politics thread, guaranteed. It really wouldnt gain anything. Youd still have the same pol-esque rhetoric and the same memes because its just the nature of the forum, you cant discuss social issues here without people turning it into a political discussion, there are lots of examples around Ive wanted a thread for a while to talk about LGBTQ stuff in the off topic section, but it wouldnt be a good idea, at all. In no situation would it be a good idea on this forum because of the need to politicize everything, I agree with you on things but I just dont think it would work, it would just be ridiculously close to what the politics thread is already and cause more trouble I think the only reason why the discussion we were involved with was what it was was because it would be locked if it got out of hand
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Post by DomeWing333 on Jun 28, 2017 12:51:04 GMT
DomeWing333 and GeneralXIV Guess the difference between us is I roll with the punches and accept each of threads and posts as they are. Though I too would like more indepth discussions sometimes about anything. Seen some good ones in the politics thread and elsewhere. Part of the fun is the memes and banter back and forth. I don't have to agree with a person to appreciate the post or contribution. But I'll speak my mind when is pleases me if someone doesn't like it they are free to respond back. Well the difference between us is that you fit better into the culture of the thread. The memes and jokes are for you; less so for me or Gen. And that's fine. Threads develop their own culture and clique that suit some people more than others. There's a reason why you choose to hang out in that thread as opposed to, say, The Drinkquisition. You feel more at home. You don't need to roll with the punches when you're the ones doling them out. What you want is fine what I object to is your wish to limit the politics thread and what it can or can't discuss and how you characterize the people in the thread - no surprise there: <I'll propose that the Politics thread be specifically devoted to discussion of, well, politics and allow other issues such as gender, sociology, religion, etc. to be discussed in their own threads.> That proposal was primarily as a response to this post from Crutch explaining the current state of affairs that I'm interested in changing. I only care to limit the purview of the Politics thread insofar as it's used as cause to assimilate other discussions that have nothing to do it. I don't care if you guys want to discuss a given social issue in the politics thread, so long as I can also discuss it in its own separate thread in a way that has nothing to do with politics. So again, start a thread or post more indepth in the politics thread. Try it. Be brave. I have tried to engage in the Politics thread a couple times. It wasn't for me. Something about the flow of conversation in there always made it seem like it was more about winning an argument than actually saying something meaningful. I felt as though there wasn't much of an effort between people to understand each other's viewpoints and that's made me disinterested in further engagement. As for starting another thread, again, I've explained my reasons for hesitating at the moment: I feel like if I started a thread discussing, for instance, gender relations, it would just be locked and I'll be redirected to the politics thread to continue my conversation. If you want to do me a favor and start one, I'll be appreciative, but I'm confident I know how that's going to shake out.
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Post by DomeWing333 on Jun 28, 2017 13:58:04 GMT
Hey, at least it's still open. More than I can say for a certain discussion thread I happened to be fond of.The movie is a documentary about the Men's Rights movement as seen through the eyes of a feminist. Trying to discuss it without discussing the gender issue would be like trying to discuss An Inconvenient Truth without talking about the global warming. It's what the movie is about...If I preferred only discussing things with people who agree with me, this conversation would have ended a long time ago.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2017 15:32:47 GMT
Any social issues thread would result in exactly the same thing
Thread opened -> discussion starts -> sjws/[insert troll name for something they dont like here] are brought up -> political discussion
It will always turn out that way here, you cant not talk about anything about people or anything even remotely controversial without a thread being hijacked and taken away from its original purpose, just the way things are
I know that you enjoyed the thread, but as I said in the other post... this is a gaming forum. One post is more than enough for stuff like this... I know you dont like the politics thread, I feel the same way, but this forum shouldnt be there for lots of discussions about political/social stuff
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jun 28, 2017 15:52:01 GMT
Liked for Stannis gif.
In all seriousness, we are reviewing this request. In the meantime, standing policy applies. Personally (and sometimes I need to stress the "personally" bit) I am not in favor. The politics thread is an exception, not a rule. Allowing any and all social issues on a board that's about BioWare games and general gaming/internet stuff may be a can of worms we don't wish to open fully. The pinhole we have is currently within acceptable levels.
Secondly, and this may be the more relevant point to you (and as others have pointed out), multiple threads will not achieve your aim of avoiding certain users or "posting styles". Anyone is welcome to post in any thread. If you dislike memes and "/pol/-esque rhetoric", do you really believe they wouldn't follow in the new threads? Threads that don't have the history and the expectations of the politics thread, where people will fly off the handle, break rules and necessitate us to intervene? I find that unlikely and I don't think that's desirable, for anyone. The idea of "thread culture" is secondary, because any new thread will inevitably draw some or all of the politics regulars because those are the topics they choose to engage with, even if they do so in a way you disapprove of. Thread culture develops naturally and you can't exclude users to develop it along the path you desire. We enforce the rules, I don't believe we will ever enforce thread lines. The only thing that can work to that specific respect is PM.
If I may share my experiences in the politics thread, it is not quite the uniform shitpostfest it appears. People do carry on their own discussion and there is disagreement or even indifference on certain topics. I can atttest to the later personally, being cheerfully apathetic. I mostly react to "SJW cringe", and throw the occasional hypothetical or more philosophically inclined post in once in a while. I don't engage everyone or everything and not everyone engages me. It could be the same for you, or anyone else. There will be users who will disagree with you and will do nothing but lob memes. But here's the thing: that's not a function of the politics thread. That's a function of you, them and that issue in a room together. And it won't be fixed by segregation of issues. It may be "fixed" by segregation of people, but that's not what we're about.
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Post by DomeWing333 on Jun 28, 2017 20:24:56 GMT
The politics thread is an exception, not a rule. Allowing any and all social issues on a board that's about BioWare games and general gaming/internet stuff may be a can of worms we don't wish to open fully. The pinhole we have is currently within acceptable levels. BioWare being a company that is notorious for interweaving social issues into the narrative of its games, politics included, I don't think the discussion of social issues on a forum dedicated to it is very much beyond the pale. I wouldn't exactly call a 1000+ page thread a pinhole either. And if the discussion that said pinhole has let in is considered to be within "acceptable levels," then I certainly don't see how allowing the occasional discussion of social issues in a reasoned, even-tempered tone outside of the politics thread would be that much of a Pandora's box.
I'll take the Red Pill thread as an example. That wasn't going anywhere unpleasant. The only reason it was moderated was simply because it veered into territory that is directly relevant to the topic of the thread but which, for some reason, has been declared the sole domain of the politics thread, even though it's not actually politics. I'm asking for that not to happen in the future.
Secondly, and this may be the more relevant point to you (and as others have pointed out), multiple threads will not achieve your aim of avoiding certain users or "posting styles". Anyone is welcome to post in any thread. If you dislike memes and "/pol/-esque rhetoric", do you really believe they wouldn't follow in the new threads? Threads that don't have the history and the expectations of the politics thread, where people will fly off the handle, break rules and necessitate us to intervene? I find that unlikely and I don't think that's desirable, for anyone. The idea of "thread culture" is secondary, because any new thread will inevitably draw some or all of the politics regulars because those are the topics they choose to engage with, even if they do so in a way you disapprove of. Thread culture develops naturally and you can't exclude users to develop it along the path you desire. We enforce the rules, I don't believe we will ever enforce thread lines. The only thing that can work to that specific respect is PM. That wasn't the main thrust of my argument. That was a response to being asked why I'm not particularly fond of discussing politics on this board. If what I wanted were the ability to discuss politics away from the people of the politics thread, I wouldn't have a leg to stand on and I wouldn't have made this suggestion. What I want is the ability to discuss social issues that wouldn't naturally fall under the umbrella of "politics" if it weren't for the way discussion of those topics is handled by moderation. Part of that is certainly motivated by a desire to avoid elements of the politics thread I find to be unsavory, but that desire is only relevant because the social subjects I do want to discuss are being lumped into the politics where they don't belong. If I may share my experiences in the politics thread, it is not quite the uniform shitpostfest it appears. People do carry on their own discussion and there is disagreement or even indifference on certain topics. I can atttest to the later personally, being cheerfully apathetic. I mostly react to "SJW cringe", and throw the occasional hypothetical or more philosophically inclined post in once in a while. I don't engage everyone or everything and not everyone engages me. It could be the same for you, or anyone else. There will be users who will disagree with you and will do nothing but lob memes. But here's the thing: that's not a function of the politics thread. That's a function of you, them and that issue in a room together. And it won't be fixed by segregation of issues. It may be "fixed" by segregation of people, but that's not what we're about. No, I'm quite aware that #notallpolitickers, but I'll disagree that the nature of the politics thread isn't at the heart of it. As dusty pointed out, that's one of the main draws of the thread (and again, that's fine). But the thing is, the discussion I was having in the Red Pill thread did involve regulars of the Politics thread but didn't have any of the inane meme-iness of it. That was a nice change of pace and one that I would like to occur more often without moderator interference.
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Post by SofaJockey on Jun 28, 2017 20:34:25 GMT
I would support a change to:
"Now with 95% less closures"
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Post by DomeWing333 on Jun 28, 2017 20:38:27 GMT
I would support a change to: "Now with 95% less closures"
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jun 28, 2017 21:24:36 GMT
BioWare being a company that is notorious for interweaving social issues into the narrative of its games, politics included, I don't think the discussion of social issues is very much beyond the pale. I wouldn't exactly call a 1000+ page thread a pinhole either. And if the discussion that said pinhole has let in is considered to be within "acceptable levels," then I certainly don't see how allowing the occasional discussion of social issues in a reasoned, even-tempered tone outside of the politics thread would be that much of a Pandora's box. And you can discuss social issues in the context of those games in their relevant threads to your heart's content. That is "accepted here in the context of a relevant, on-topic discussion as long as every post furthers the discussion in some way." Go ahead and talk about population control in the context of the genophage or eugenics in the context of Miranda or Grunt. Making a thread about those things in a vaccuum however, is something else. BioWare makes games. They do not make political or social manifestos. As we mirror that, we discuss games. Some social stuff is interweaved, sure. But opening the floodgates to social issues threads is not interweaving. It's turning a entire section of the forum into full blown social issues discussion. Because simply calling it "the occasional" discussion isn't getting at the full scope. On what grounds would we limit the amount of threads being open then? On what definitions? "Racism isn't the same as sexism! Yes it is! No it isn't" and on and on. Any ruling we'd make would be hilariously arbitrary. We had initially made the executive call that we won't open that can. The politics thread is a pinhole, because of how it's watched and moderated. One thread, as both outlet and sink for those that just have to talk about this stuff here. That may be arbitrary to some extent as well, but I'd much rather arbitrary-ness be an exception, not a rule. And again, the politics thread is an exception. The rule is: we don't do "RL" here, except for this one case. "...except for this one case, and also these other ones" is far flimsier and invites the dreaded slipperly slope. What I want is the ability to discuss social issues that wouldn't naturally fall under the umbrella of "politics" if it weren't for the way discussion of those topics is handled by moderation... the social subjects I do want to discuss are being lumped into the politics where they don't belong. This is a difference of definitions. You feel they're different. The case can be made that they're not, or they're related enough to make belonging to the same thread feasible. Then there's the catchall consideration mentioned above. I'll take the Red Pill thread as an example. That wasn't going anywhere unpleasant. The only reason it was moderated was simply because it veered into territory that is directly relevant to the topic of the thread but which, for some reason, has been declared the sole domain of the politics thread, even though it's not actually politics. I'm asking for that not to happen in the future. No, I'm quite aware that #notallpolitickers, but I'll disagree that the nature of the politics thread isn't at the heart of it. As dusty pointed out, that's one of the main draws of the thread (and again, that's fine). But the thing is, the discussion I was having in the Red Pill thread did involve regulars of the Politics thread but didn't have any of the inane meme-iness of it. That was a nice change of pace and one that I would like to occur more often without moderator interference. That's because it went on for all of 20 minutes. Not really fair to judge such a short sample. And despite said shortness, I still had to act on a personal attack. The details of that don't matter, but the fact remains that despite the apparent chaos of the politics thread, we are keeping very tight reins on "sensitive" subjects in RL, and for good reason. Page counts are less of a problem compared to chasing reports across multiple threads. I believe you've witnessed some of the trouble there for yourself.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2017 21:27:25 GMT
That is all Although no one HAS to talk about politics here, whatsoever, just saying... people make choices. They WANT to talk about politics here, instead of doing what might be the better thing for everyone and going somewhere which is designed for politics, where they arent as limited in terms of rules/suggestions (heh, well...) and ToS and wont cause any disturbances in a gaming forum, but whatever
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Post by DomeWing333 on Jun 28, 2017 22:00:08 GMT
And again, the politics thread is an exception. The rule is: we don't do "RL" here, except for this one case. "...except for this one case, and also these other ones" is far flimsier and invites the dreaded slipperly slope. Oh okay, so the politics thread is the only one that deals with "RL." Great. Well except for the history thread. Oh, and the science thread. And the gun thread. Facts about your country. Questions thread. Females only. And the handful of threads about various current events.
The rule is already flimsy. People are making and will continue to make threads about aspects of real life and society. Unless you now want to expand the politics thread even further to become the "RL" thread and dictate that all conversations concerning real life take place in it, there's no point in keeping to that "rule." (And, no, please don't actually do that. That's...silly.)
Anyway, I think I've more than said my piece. You guys carry on as you will.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jun 28, 2017 22:22:16 GMT
Oh okay, so the politics thread is the only one that deals with "RL." Great. Well except for the history thread. Oh, and the science thread. And the gun thread. Facts about your country. Questions thread. Females only. And the handful of threads about various current events.
The rule is already flimsy. People are making and will continue to make threads about aspects of real life and society. Unless you now want to expand the politics thread even further to become the "RL" thread and dictate that all conversations concerning real life take place in it, there's no point in keeping to that "rule." (And, no, please don't actually do that. That's...silly.)
Anyway, I think I've more than said my piece. You guys carry on as you will.
RL "heavy" issues. AKA possibly controversial, potentially explosive discussions. Things that usually get people really riled up. History, science, guns (the technical aspects, as discussed by enthusiasts) and rando questions do not fall into that category. I think you know full well what I meant.
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Post by DomeWing333 on Jun 28, 2017 22:31:03 GMT
Yep, nothing controversial about history.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jun 29, 2017 13:29:41 GMT
Yep, nothing controversial about history. Unless you've got Holocaust deniers, or similar revisionists of anything this century, not really, no. It's all relative of course, but I don't recall hearing of people legit threatening harm to life or limb, doxxing or even calling each cunts over the War of 1812 or the French Revolution.
In any case, the mods have voted and we do not find sufficient ground for allowing additional "social issue" threads at this time. Any and all discussion related to RL socio-political issues will be discussed in the politics thread, unless already present in another topic where discussion will carry on relevant to the context of that topic only. As this suggestion has been dealt with, thread is now locked.
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