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Post by dazk on May 25, 2019 2:15:48 GMT
Gendry or Jon would make a fine King, if something were ever to happen to Bran the Broken Jon most likely won't be within shouting distance of King's Landing for quite a while. And as a sworn man of the Night's Watch again, who was never officially recognized as a Targaryan, I seriously doubt he'd ever be recognized as a candidate. Wouldn't it be funny if the throne ended up right back in Baratheon hands after all that fuss? That said, I'm not sure I agree with your assessment of Gendry either. He seems like a good guy, and a decent journeyman smith. That doesn't necessarily make him administrator material. I admit I winced a bit when Daenaerys legitimized him and made him lord of Storm's End. Renly's old bannermen are going to run circles around him. Maybe he'll be a good lord in a few decades? I asked before but no one answered, at the end of the show prior to seeing Jon heading North of the Wall presumably to be King of The Far North, there is a scene where a hand lays down a sword and puts it on a table. Was its Jon sword did anyone notice?
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Post by Iakus on May 25, 2019 3:49:32 GMT
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Post by Obadiah on May 25, 2019 4:20:42 GMT
Jon most likely won't be within shouting distance of King's Landing for quite a while. And as a sworn man of the Night's Watch again, who was never officially recognized as a Targaryan, I seriously doubt he'd ever be recognized as a candidate. Wouldn't it be funny if the throne ended up right back in Baratheon hands after all that fuss? That said, I'm not sure I agree with your assessment of Gendry either. He seems like a good guy, and a decent journeyman smith. That doesn't necessarily make him administrator material. I admit I winced a bit when Daenaerys legitimized him and made him lord of Storm's End. Renly's old bannermen are going to run circles around him. Maybe he'll be a good lord in a few decades? I asked before but no one answered, at the end of the show prior to seeing Jon heading North of the Wall presumably to be King of The Far North, there is a scene where a hand lays down a sword and puts it on a table. Was its Jon sword did anyone notice? I thought that was Arya picking up her sword.
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Post by dazk on May 25, 2019 4:36:57 GMT
I asked before but no one answered, at the end of the show prior to seeing Jon heading North of the Wall presumably to be King of The Far North, there is a scene where a hand lays down a sword and puts it on a table. Was its Jon sword did anyone notice? I thought that was Arya picking up her sword. No I think that was separate, the sword definitely seemed to have a white hilt that's why I thought it was Jon's and as he appeared to be leaving the Watch to head North I assumed that was symbolic of it. Damn, will drive me nuts will have to find the episode somewhere and watch it again. <iframe width="23.96" height="4.84" id="MoatPxIOPT0_34768984" scrolling="no" style="border-style: none; left: 15px; top: -5px; width: 23.96px; height: 4.84px; position: absolute; z-index: -9999;"></iframe> <iframe width="23.96" height="4.84" id="MoatPxIOPT0_51954729" scrolling="no" style="border-style: none; left: 1138px; top: -5px; width: 23.96px; height: 4.84px; position: absolute; z-index: -9999;"></iframe> <iframe width="23.96" height="4.84" id="MoatPxIOPT0_38052982" scrolling="no" style="border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 182px; width: 23.96px; height: 4.84px; position: absolute; z-index: -9999;"></iframe> <iframe width="23.96" height="4.84" id="MoatPxIOPT0_51544964" scrolling="no" style="border-style: none; left: 1138px; top: 182px; width: 23.96px; height: 4.84px; position: absolute; z-index: -9999;"></iframe>
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Post by ScumbagShepurd on May 25, 2019 9:35:30 GMT
It doesn't really matter, for the purposes of his hypothetical candidacy as King of the Six Kingdoms. Nobody in the south cares one bit what he does once he's up there, but they had to negotiate to get him sentenced to the Wall and did so in good faith. It's official, so far as they're concerned. Which makes it rather unlikely for them to then break the law and vote him in as their ruler, assuming he's even within raven-distance of Westeros proper by then. it does matter since the show clearly doesn't care about broken oaths. I remind you, the North cares about this NW shit a lot more than any other peoples of Westeros, yet the northmen willingly elected Jon the Oathbreaker their king. As for the ambiguity, I don't mind. He's either leaving for good to join the wildlings or simply escorting them with the intention of helping them settle and then reporting back and maybe functioning as a liaison. Either makes perfect sense, and fits him well for a retirement plan. And one could easily result in the other quite naturally in any case. breaking the oath AGAIN kinda ruins Jon's established personality.
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Post by Iakus on May 25, 2019 13:45:17 GMT
it does matter since the show clearly doesn't care about broken oaths. I remind you, the North cares about this NW shit a lot more than any other peoples of Westeros, yet the northmen willingly elected Jon the Oathbreaker their king. Jon didn't break his oath. He swore to serve the Night's Watch til the day he died. He died. His watch was over. Granted it's a loophole and one no one could have anticipated, but there ya go.
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Post by ScumbagShepurd on May 25, 2019 14:29:23 GMT
it does matter since the show clearly doesn't care about broken oaths. I remind you, the North cares about this NW shit a lot more than any other peoples of Westeros, yet the northmen willingly elected Jon the Oathbreaker their king. Jon didn't break his oath. He swore to serve the Night's Watch til the day he died. He died. His watch was over. Granted it's a loophole and one no one could have anticipated, but there ya go. the idea that Jon'd use this kind of excuse and the northmen would accept it is completely OOC.
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Post by Heimdall on May 25, 2019 14:49:22 GMT
He’s doing the last two episodes in two parts, this is the first.
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Post by alanc9 on May 25, 2019 14:59:13 GMT
Before I commit a half-hour to that, what's the guy's basic objective?
Thinking about the whole Dany situation, it occurred to me that the showrunners actually set themselves a far more difficult task than what GRRM is going to have to do when (if?) he gets to the same point in the material. In a book you can get into a character's head, so GRRM's going to be able to show us the steps by which Dany convinces herself that she's an extremely stable genius who needs to burn King's Landing to the ground. But in this medium you have to externalize everything, which is even harder when the basic structure of the plot is that Dany becomes more isolated from her advisers.
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Post by Heimdall on May 25, 2019 15:50:01 GMT
Before I commit a half-hour to that, what's the guy's basic objective? Thinking about the whole Dany situation, it occurred to me that the showrunners actually set themselves a far more difficult task than what GRRM is going to have to do when (if?) he gets to the same point in the material. In a book you can get into a character's head, so GRRM's going to be able to show us the steps by which Dany convinces herself that she's an extremely stable genius who needs to burn King's Landing to the ground. But in this medium you have to externalize everything, which is even harder when the basic structure of the plot is that Dany becomes more isolated from her advisers. He doesn’t want to change past episodes but he wants to give the characters endings that better wrap up their story-arcs. For example, while he thinks full “Mad Queen” may be the right direction for the books to take, the show hasn’t set it up enough for her to be burning civilians. Instead her story plays off her themes of whether a good person can be an effective ruler (noting that every place she has conquered hasn’t prospered just because a good person sat the throne, some were even worse off). He also tried to foreshadow her state of mind by having her be fearful of poison and such. She does descend into paranoia. There’s also an interesting idea of displaying the brutality of the Dothraki and the fires by seeing part of the battle from the perspective of an unnamed Lannister soldier. I’m not sure I can say more without revealing exactly what he changes. The ending is a pretty big change, though this only covers the penultimate episode.
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Post by House Targaryen on May 25, 2019 16:04:44 GMT
Much better. Makes the Night King a threat he's supposed to be.
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Post by Noxluxe on May 25, 2019 16:24:36 GMT
it does matter since the show clearly doesn't care about broken oaths. I remind you, the North cares about this NW shit a lot more than any other peoples of Westeros, yet the northmen willingly elected Jon the Oathbreaker their king. breaking the oath AGAIN kinda ruins Jon's established personality. The North have been precious about the Night's Watch because the wildings were raiding their property and because of bedtime stories about zombies hiding behind the Wall that they didn't quite dare ignore entirely. Any oaths Jon broke he did specifically to deal with both of those issues on their behalf. And he's only technically a deserter of the Night's Watch if the Night's Watch declares him such. It didn't, and most likely won't. Besides, the Queen in the North isn't on the new council for electing a king of the Six Kingdoms anymore, rendering the average northman's opinion of Jon Snow moot in the question of whether or not he could be king of Westeros after Bran. And no, Jon potentially breaking that oath again doesn't "kinda ruin his established personality". On the contrary, it indicates that the trauma of killing Daenerys for the sake of the realms and then being rejected by Westeros again has forced him to grow out of his stubborn mindset and made him look at his own life as something he might actually need have a say in. And when he leaves, that courtyard is filled with men of the Night's Watch, where I doubt any real number remained when he arrived, and when there's no real purpose for it anymore beyond being a northern border stronghold for Sansa's domain. Even if he leaves the Watch forever, which him still carrying his black cloak doesn't indicate, then he couldn't be said to have shirked his duty. The way I see it, him moving on to start a new kind of life with people who don't arbitrarily blame him for saving them is as close to a happy ending as I expected for him. He doesn't owe the North or the Six Kingdoms jack shit anymore. Time to get on with one's life. If you find ANY people regardless of nobility breaking promises under complex and traumatic circumstances implausible, then I'll venture that Game of Thrones is too complicated a show for you to appreciate in any case.
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Post by ScumbagShepurd on May 25, 2019 17:13:37 GMT
And he's only technically a deserter of the Night's Watch if the Night's Watch declares him such. It didn't, and most likely won't. theres no such thing as "declaring" a NW brother deserter. It's not 2019, they don't have smartphones. You think the Stark lords have been catching deserters and beheading them because they were warned by the Night's Watch? No, it doesn't work like that. You caught a guy in black without the paper permitting him go south - you chop his head off, plain and simple. Besides, the Queen in the North isn't on the new council for electing a king of the Six Kingdoms anymore, rendering the average northman's opinion of Jon Snow moot in the question of whether or not he could be king of Westeros after Bran. it has nothing to do with my point. My point was, since the North that cares about crimes such as leaving the Night's Watch but still didn't care and elected Jon their king, then the South would care even less about Jon breaking his oath. If you find ANY people regardless of nobility breaking promises under complex and traumatic circumstances implausible, then I'll venture that Game of Thrones is too complicated a show for you to appreciate in any case. i dont find any people breaking their promises implausible, i find Jon doing this implausible. If you can't tell the difference between "any" and "one specific person" then I'll dare to say that reading and posting on the forums is too complicated for you.
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Post by mybudgee on May 25, 2019 18:12:32 GMT
<iframe width="16" height="14.159999999999968" style="position: absolute; width: 16px; height: 14.16px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 11px; top: 66px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_927122" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="16" height="14.159999999999968" style="position: absolute; width: 16px; height: 14.16px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 745px; top: 66px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_32981694" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="16" height="14.159999999999968" style="position: absolute; width: 16px; height: 14.16px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 11px; top: 709px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_18724399" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="16" height="14.159999999999968" style="position: absolute; width: 16px; height: 14.16px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 745px; top: 709px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_9462408" scrolling="no"></iframe> This is symbolic of much of season 8
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Post by Noxluxe on May 25, 2019 18:40:46 GMT
theres no such thing as "declaring" a NW brother deserter. It's not 2019, they don't have smartphones. You think the Stark lords have been catching deserters and beheading them because they were warned by the Night's Watch? No, it doesn't work like that. You caught a guy in black without the paper permitting him go south - you chop his head off, plain and simple. it has nothing to do with my point. My point was, since the North that cares about crimes such as leaving the Night's Watch but still didn't care and elected Jon their king, then the South would care even less about Jon breaking his oath. i dont find any people breaking their promises implausible, i find Jon doing this implausible. If you can't tell the difference between "any" and "one specific person" then I'll dare to say that reading and posting on the forums is too complicated for you. Huh, I don't remember a single instance of that "paper that permits you to go south or else your head gets chopped off". I'll look forward to hearing your quote confirming its existence in the lore. Your point makes no sense, then. Some people making exceptions to principles isn't the same as nobody caring about them. Like, at all, in any sense whatsoever. What world do you live in, where people only ever categorically do predictable things in line with their historical dispositions, or else live in complete anarchy? "One specific person" falls under "anyone". It's literally what the word means. Any one specifc person. You being outraged over one specific person not behaving exactly how you think they should based on something they said once is you being outraged at anyone doing that. Which is ridiculous. Which is my point.
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Post by Lavochkin on May 25, 2019 19:49:53 GMT
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Post by Iakus on May 25, 2019 19:56:36 GMT
Jon didn't break his oath. He swore to serve the Night's Watch til the day he died. He died. His watch was over. Granted it's a loophole and one no one could have anticipated, but there ya go. the idea that Jon'd use this kind of excuse and the northmen would accept it is completely OOC.
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Post by Pounce de León on May 25, 2019 20:23:11 GMT
The most useless armed force got a negative rating. I will never understand why this Show was so hot and keen to Display walled City defenses march up in front of gates and walls instead of behind.
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Post by ScumbagShepurd on May 25, 2019 21:04:16 GMT
Huh, I don't remember a single instance of that "paper that permits you to go south or else your head gets chopped off". I'll look forward to hearing your quote confirming its existence in the lore. theres no need for some "quote", all it takes to figure this out is some common sense. If someone deserts the NW, he has a chance to escape before the Night's Watch "declaration" of the said person being a deserter reaches northern lords. As i said before, there are no smartphones or internet in Westeros to outrun the deserter (ravens have a chance but theres no guarantee since they need time to reach castles and by the time they get to, say, Winterfell, the deserter might've already passed Moat Cailin). So there has to be a simple rule instead: anyone who leaves lands of the Night's Watch becomes a deserter automatically and has to be executed. but since sometimes brothers of the NW go south to get new recruits (like Yoren) or for some other legit reasons (like Benjen Stark), theres clearly some kind of an official paper they can show to a lord who otherwise might try to make them one head shorter. One small piece of paper is way cheaper than sending ravens in every castle on the road to King's Landing. Jon, however, has clearly left the NW for good and doesn't try to hide it. So he is a deserter in the eyes of the northmen. You being outraged over one specific person not behaving exactly how you think they should based on something they said once it was one big "once". There was no greater mission in his life than protecting the realm of men and in order to do so he needed Cersei's help and to get it he needed to join the truce between Cersei and Dany. He, however, refused because "i've already pledged myself to Daenerys so i kinda cant do anything without her permission". Jon has showed that hes a man of his word. there are several other cases like Jon killing his ginger love for the sake of the NW or Jon refusing to become Stannis' puppet-lord of Winterfell. All of them show that there's no way he'd leave the Night's Watch over something as trivial as some "retirement plan".
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Post by Noxluxe on May 25, 2019 22:05:34 GMT
theres no need for some "quote", all it takes to figure this out is some common sense. If someone deserts the NW, he has a chance to escape before the Night's Watch "declaration" of the said person being a deserter reaches northern lords. As i said before, there are no smartphones or internet in Westeros to outrun the deserter (ravens have a chance but theres no guarantee since they need time to reach castles and by the time they get to, say, Winterfell, the deserter might've already passed Moat Cailin). So there has to be a simple rule instead: anyone who leaves lands of the Night's Watch becomes a deserter automatically and has to be executed. but since sometimes brothers of the NW go south to get new recruits (like Yoren) or for some other legit reasons (like Benjen Stark), theres clearly some kind of an official paper they can show to a lord who otherwise might try to make them one head shorter. One small piece of paper is way cheaper than sending ravens in every castle on the road to King's Landing. Jon, however, has clearly left the NW for good and doesn't try to hide it. So he is a deserter in the eyes of the northmen. it was one big "once". There was no greater mission in his life than protecting the realm of men and in order to do so he needed Cersei's help and to get it he needed to join the truce between Cersei and Dany. He, however, refused because "i've already pledged myself to Daenerys so i kinda cant do anything without her permission". Jon has showed that hes a man of his word. there are several other cases like Jon killing his ginger love for the sake of the NW or Jon refusing to become Stannis' puppet-lord of Winterfell. All of them show that there's no way he'd leave the Night's Watch over something as trivial as some "retirement plan". Your theory has two glaring holes. 1: A raven would arrive anywhere at all weeks before some guy traveling on foot or horseback even if that person didn't have to actually survive the trip, hunting and fishing and gathering and sleeping, and since the North is very lightly populated between Winterfell and the Wall, sending a raven to the Starks and letting their men hunt him down would be a lot quicker and simpler than waiting for someone to catch him by accident. 2: Do you imagine every guard or lookout in the North, let alone the rest of Westeros, keeps a running tally of the names and appearances of every single member of the Night's Watch so as to be able to recognize deserters on sight if they, I don't know, take off the cloak? Jon told Cersei he couldn't swear neutrality because he had sworn the entire North to Daenerys. It wasn't just his own honor on the line. And besides, Daenerys had repeatedly made his loyalty exclusively to her a sticking point for any assistance against the dead, and all else being equal her help outweighed Cersei's by several margins. He also didn't kill Ygritte. Don't know where you got that idea. He didn't become puppet-lord of Winterfell specifically because the Night's Watch needed his leadership, and they don't anymore. The order has no reason to exist. The North and what wildlings are left are on decent terms now, and the dead are... dead. And ranging north to accompany and keep in contact with the wildlings while scouting the lands beyond the wall is far more conducive to Westeros' safety than babysitting a bunch of criminals sentenced to guard a big hole forever for no reason. So no more sitting in Castle Black waiting to get news from the south about how the world looks these days. Time to do some riding and camping and figuring out where to put all these wildlings and what to do with the rest of the continent that's suddenly opened up, and if there are any nasty magical surprises left to deal with, or Children of the Forest kicking around to make a land treaty with so Sansa's great-great-grand kids don't have to wake up one day and hear the dead knocking. Sounds perfectly sensible, and honorable, and in character, to me.
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ScumbagShepurd
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Post by ScumbagShepurd on May 25, 2019 22:45:28 GMT
Your theory has two glaring holes. 1: A raven would arrive anywhere at all weeks before some guy traveling on foot or horseback even if that person didn't have to actually survive the trip, hunting and fishing and gathering and sleeping, and since the North is very lightly populated between Winterfell and the Wall, sending a raven to the Starks and letting their men hunt him down would be a lot quicker and simpler than waiting for someone to catch him by accident. 2: Do you imagine every guard or lookout in the North, let alone the rest of Westeros, keeps a running tally of the names and appearances of every single member of the Night's Watch so as to be able to recognize deserters on sight if they, I don't know, take off the cloak? ravens dont arrive "anywhere". One travels only to a specific castle (it's said that few ravens learn more than one route). So in case of only one guy deserting you'll have to send dozens of ravens to every castle in the North. even this doesnt guarantee shit. A deserter may happen to flee weeks before his absence will be noticed so yeah, he can outrun a raven. Say, someone fleeing from the easternmost castle can just go to the sea and sail off before ravens reach nearby lords. besides, raven-time isn't the only factor. Between arrival of the raven and catching the deserter the lord will to have inform all his villages about the culprit. This takes time too. the system where you dont have to inform your peasants and patrols because they automatically assume that anyone from the north is a deserter, is much simpler, faster and effective. as for the "they'd just take off the cloak" part -uhm, you do realize we talk about the North? But even if it's summer, the scarcely populated North where any outsider sticks out like a sore thumb is the best place to catch suspicious outsiders. Jon told Cersei he couldn't swear neutrality because he had sworn the entire North to Daenerys. It wasn't just his own honor on the line. And besides, Daenerys had repeatedly made his loyalty exclusively to her a sticking point for any assistance against the dead, and all else being equal her help outweighed Cersei's by several margins. He also didn't kill Ygritte. Don't know where you got that idea. He didn't become puppet-lord of Winterfell specifically because the Night's Watch needed his leadership, and they don't anymore. The order has no reason to exist. The North and what wildlings are left are on decent terms now, and the dead are... dead. And ranging north to accompany and keep in contact with the wildlings while scouting the lands beyond the wall is far more conducive to Westeros' safety than babysitting a bunch of criminals sentenced to guard a big hole forever for no reason. So no more sitting in Castle Black waiting to get news from the south about how the world looks these days. Time to do some riding and camping and figuring out where to put all these wildlings and what to do with the rest of the continent that's suddenly opened up, and if there are any nasty magical surprises left to deal with, or Children of the Forest kicking around to make a land treaty with so Sansa's great-great-grand kids don't have to wake up one day and hear the dead knocking. Sounds perfectly sensible, and honorable, and in character, to me. not sure what exactly the "Daenerys had repeatedly made his loyalty exclusively to her a sticking point for any assistance against the dead, and all else being equal her help outweighed Cersei's by several margins" means. Dany already pledged herself to Jon's case regardless of the Cersei's decision (and Dany was actually mad at Jon for telling everybody about his pledge to her) so Jon didn't need to choose between Dany's help or Cersei's. He was choosing between getting help from both or only from Dany. He chose the latter. So it's clearly the choice of honor and not some pragmatic reasoning on his part. yeah, i forgot he didnt kill Ygritte. Doesnt really matter, he still clearly chose Night's Watch over her. <iframe width="23.62000000000012" height="4.900000000000006" style="position: absolute; width: 23.62000000000012px; height: 4.900000000000006px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none;left: 15px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_92987360" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="23.62000000000012" height="4.900000000000006" style="position: absolute; width: 23.62px; height: 4.9px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1121px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_88275095" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="23.62000000000012" height="4.900000000000006" style="position: absolute; width: 23.62px; height: 4.9px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 184px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_4531336" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="23.62000000000012" height="4.900000000000006" style="position: absolute; width: 23.62px; height: 4.9px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1121px; top: 184px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_71889523" scrolling="no"></iframe> "The order has no reason to exist" - then no one would actually send Jon there and Jon wouldn't agree to be sending off. Because at the time of this decision he was clearly feeling guilty about murdering Dany. And since sending him off to the non-existent order that he can leave anytime is clearly just a way to get off easily (and quite a despicable way to avoid any real punishment), it's highly unlikely Grey Worm or Yara or Jon himself would agree to this.
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Post by Noxluxe on May 25, 2019 23:29:10 GMT
ravens dont arrive "anywhere". One travels only to a specific castle (it's said that few ravens learn more than one route). So in case of only one guy deserting you'll have to send dozens of ravens to every castle in the North. even this doesnt guarantee shit. A deserter may happen to flee weeks before his absence will be noticed so yeah, he can outrun a raven. Say, someone fleeing from the easternmost castle can just go to the sea and sail off before ravens reach nearby lords. besides, raven-time isn't the only factor. Between arrival of the raven and catching the deserter the lord will to have inform all his villages about the culprit. This takes time too. the system where you dont have to inform your peasants and patrols because they automatically assume that anyone from the north is a deserter, is much simpler, faster and effective. as for the "they'd just take off the cloak" part -uhm, you do realize we talk about the North? But even if it's summer, the scarcely populated North where any outsider sticks out like a sore thumb is the best place to catch suspicious outsiders. not sure what exactly the "Daenerys had repeatedly made his loyalty exclusively to her a sticking point for any assistance against the dead, and all else being equal her help outweighed Cersei's by several margins" means. Dany already pledged herself to Jon's case regardless of the Cersei's decision (and Dany was actually mad at Jon for telling everybody about his pledge to her) so Jon didn't need to choose between Dany's help or Cersei's. He was choosing between getting help from both or only from Dany. He chose the latter. So it's clearly the choice of honor and not some pragmatic reasoning on his part. yeah, i forgot he didnt kill Ygritte. Doesnt really matter, he still clearly chose Night's Watch over her. "The order has no reason to exist" - then no one would actually send Jon there and Jon wouldn't agree to be sending off. Because at the time of this decision he was clearly feeling guilty about murdering Dany. And since sending him off to the non-existent order that he can leave anytime is clearly just a way to get off easily (and quite a despicable way to avoid any real punishment), it's highly unlikely Grey Worm or Yara or Jon himself would agree to this. Raven-time specifically isn't a factor, compared to someone traveling on foot or horseback. It doesn't sound like you understand how much quicker it is to fly than walk, or how immense the North is. Or how quickly people packed into a building for years notice when someone goes missing. Ever heard of a roll call? Or, for that matter, how hard it would be for your average illiterate medieval town guard to verify a piece of paper. Honor was definitely part of his decision to reveal his pledge to Daenerys, but Jon isn't a mind-reader at the best of times and it wasn't simply a question of shall I be honorable or not. Presenting it as such is a lie. And the same about Ygritte, he didn't "choose the Night's Watch over her", he chose the relative safety and organization and order of Westeros over her. The wildling army overwhelming Castle Black and marching south would have been a disaster for all sorts of reasons. Again, not simply a question of whether or not to be honorable. After shivving Daenerys, Jon was astonished to learn that there still was a Night's Watch at all, and agreed to go there regardless because he really is ashamed of betraying Dany, because a lot of people really do still want him dead, because he doesn't know what else to do with himself and because he has some really ambivalent feelings about Westeros after all this. Tyrion's line about the world "needing a place for bastards and broken men" isn't a reason to man and feed a castle in the middle of nowhere. It's obvious that the order is pointless now and will need to be re-purposed with a new focus and new policies. But as of the council, "sending someone to the wall" is still part of the legal system, as it's been for thousands of years, so the ones inclined to do so use it to give him a break. And clearly neither Yara nor Grey Worm know or care or have thought enough about the Night's Watch to realize if it's any kind of real sentence in practice.
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Post by gervaise21 on May 26, 2019 7:52:15 GMT
So far as Grey Worm is concerned, I doubt he even really knew precisely what the Night Watch was apart from the fact that apparently it is an Order where criminals can be sent instead of just killing them. Presumably he felt if everyone else seemed okay with it, so was he. Actually it makes a lot of sense that if it was going to be repurposed to it could continue to be used as a form of life sentence for criminals, Jon Snow should be the one to do it whether he had killed Dany or not. It also made a lot of sense for its main aim in the future is to check out the lands to the north of the wall for other undiscovered threats that had been kept away by the White Walkers and, as the years progressed, to ensure those north of the wall, who did not acknowledge the Queen of the North, did not cause too much trouble to those that did.
To my mind, what happened to the surviving Dothraki is still the biggest puzzle. I can only assume they were pacified with the promise of being returned to their homeland, where they could return to their traditional ways without being a problem for the people of Westros.
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Obadiah
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Post by Obadiah on May 26, 2019 12:50:01 GMT
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Post by Heimdall on May 26, 2019 17:21:19 GMT
He’s doing the last two episodes in two parts, this is the first. Second part, a much more satisfying ending without requiring vast rewrites.
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