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Post by vegasflash on Jul 5, 2017 5:18:36 GMT
take the turian agent for example. Flamethrower is fucking useless and redundant, at level 1, i only use it to stun enemies/burn them so i can have an easy shot. you don't need the 80% damage debuff as opposed to simply YOU killing the enemy quickly by shooting them in the head. The animations where it takes you to debuff enemies, could be used to do a quick head shot or already kill the enemy. This goes with that pointless salarian power invasion. By the time you use invasion, that time could've been used to simply kill the enemy. The debuff is fucking useless and redundant if you are already using a good DPS weapon. Not to mention, it has a ridiculous cooldown and you aren't going to use invasion on every enemy. At high level play (where everyone is running and gunning and killing everything in site as fast as possible), you are better off running around killing stuff than wasting your time debuffing. imgur.com/a/s5Itfsee that? triple 5 gold stars w/o using that stupid flamethrower invasion/flamethrower, don't specc ANYTHING on it, or that idiotic"35% damage from cold/heat/electricity" tree, or "enemy takes 20% damage from all sources" LMFAo as if 20% is even noticeable if everyone else is running and gunning. i will soon post the first ever solo platinum run with Turian Agent(no flamethrower build) |
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Post by lennybusker on Jul 5, 2017 5:36:40 GMT
It's a vegasflash thread but it has more discussion fodder than any of your shitty posts On topic, agreed with OP. People talk about builds with debuff this debuff that, but it's pointless when one Dhan or Vanquisher shot can render the debuff obsolete. This is a DPSers game, the crowd control and debuff nonsense is utterly worthless. We'll see if it makes a difference on Platinum, but I doubt it. |
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Post by vegasflash on Jul 5, 2017 5:40:29 GMT
It's a vegasflash thread but it has more discussion fodder than any of your shitty posts On topic, agreed with OP. People talk about builds with debuff this debuff that, but it's pointless when one Dhan or Vanquisher shot can render the debuff obsolete. This is a DPSers game, the crowd control and debuff nonsense is utterly worthless. We'll see if it makes a difference on Platinum, but I doubt it. exactly, especially if three of your teammates are good players, you don't really need to debuff LOL like i said on my topic title "high level play" obviously debuffs have its situational uses (especially if the team is camping and has sub-standard skill), but at high level play where everyone is running and gunning, and among good players, it's FUCKING useless
and people who say otherwise are lying. invasion/flamethrower, don't specc ANYTHING on it, or that idiotic"35% damage from cold/heat/electricity" tree, or "enemy takes 20% damage from all sources" LMFAo as if 20% is even noticeable if everyone else is running and gunning. |
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Post by SofaJockey on Jul 5, 2017 7:17:01 GMT
[several really annoying posts removed] Well, that needed dealing with.  Carry on, people... |
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Post by vegasflash on Jul 5, 2017 7:50:30 GMT
thanks, i already had him in ignore lol
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Post by WopGnop on Jul 5, 2017 8:29:17 GMT
The useful debuffs are the ones that make you capable of OHK where without them you would have needed 2 combo/melee hits (so in that occasion the debuff saves you time). Other than that they're indeed quite useless, expecially with some high level UR gun like Rozerad or Hurricane.
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Post by Kenny Bania on Jul 5, 2017 8:32:32 GMT
vegasflash and killabkilledb are both on PS4. Why don't we have a Thunderdome to determine the "King of the Douchebags"?
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Post by vegasflash on Jul 5, 2017 8:33:21 GMT
The useful debuffs are the ones that make you capable of OHK where without them you would have needed 2 combo/melee hits (so in that occasion the debuff saves you time). Other than that they're indeed quite useless, expecially with some high level UR gun like Rozerad or Hurricane. lmfao, yes if the player suck if you three of your teammates are good players, debuffs are irrelevant and redundant. also, if you have good weapons, debuffs aren't needed. in a real game with good players, it's fast paced/run n gun environment where everyone is running in erratic patterns killing everything as fast as possible. Debuffs at that point isn't needed |
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Post by ScumbagShepurd on Jul 5, 2017 8:34:42 GMT
I'm pretty sure in most MP games debuffs are quite useless compared to direct damage.
Basically every online game I've played so far turns to the 'kill it faster than it kills you' pewpewshow eventually.
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Post by lennybusker on Jul 5, 2017 8:39:10 GMT
I'm pretty sure in most MP games debuffs are quite useless compared to direct damage. Basically every online game I've played so far turns to the 'kill it faster than it kills you' pewpewshow eventually. It comes down to enemy damage. In a classically balanced game design you need the "trinity" of tank, DPS, and healer (with crowd control as well, if not coming from the tank) in order to mitigate unavoidable enemy damage. But as more and more MMOs and other online games go the action RPG or action shooter route where you can bypass enemy damage entirely with basic abilities, it does indeed come down to "everyone should DPS as much as possible." |
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Post by Uchimura on Jul 5, 2017 8:54:24 GMT
Well.. there's going to be a torrent of boss mobs on Platinum. I guess now's a good time to remove debuffs from the game.
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Post by N7Mith on Jul 5, 2017 9:55:01 GMT
It's a vegasflash thread but it has more discussion fodder than any of your shitty posts On topic, agreed with OP. People talk about builds with debuff this debuff that, but it's pointless when one Dhan or Vanquisher shot can render the debuff obsolete. This is a DPSers game, the crowd control and debuff nonsense is utterly worthless. We'll see if it makes a difference on Platinum, but I doubt it. exactly, especially if three of your teammates are good players, you don't really need to debuff LOL like i said on my topic title "high level play" obviously debuffs have its situational uses (especially if the team is camping and has sub-standard skill), but at high level play where everyone is running and gunning, and among good players, it's FUCKING useless
and people who say otherwise are lying. invasion/flamethrower, don't specc ANYTHING on it, or that idiotic"35% damage from cold/heat/electricity" tree, or "enemy takes 20% damage from all sources" LMFAo as if 20% is even noticeable if everyone else is running and gunning. I like how you state substandard skill, as if the majority of players is able to run and gun, do gold solo's and kill every mook in under half a second. But when you say elemental tech is worthless you're just wrong. Incinerate self benefits from that, impact and dot, and the fire explosion if detonated. Saying it's useless couldn't be farther from the truth. And invasion is incredibly useful, as it spreads to other targets. Even with a running and gunning team I'm often surprised how many enemies it infects. |
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Post by tatann on Jul 5, 2017 12:01:01 GMT
I'm pretty sure in most MP games debuffs are quite useless compared to direct damage. Basically every online game I've played so far turns to the 'kill it faster than it kills you' pewpewshow eventually. Try to kill armored enemies in Warframe without debuff (corrosive), you'll see even a hard hitting weapon is nothing without debuff Borderlands is quite similar, non elemental weapons are quite useless in this game In Mass Effect, debuffing armor with Cryo (or Warp in ME3) may be quite transparent, but not on every MP games |
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Post by misguidedworm7 on Jul 5, 2017 12:03:33 GMT
Some debuffs just suck.
That does not mean debuffs suck. It means some things need buffs.
Invasion is amazing because it affects large numbers of enemies, inflicting a significant defense penalty/ damage bonus, and thus makes any weapon that isn't one shotting enemies without it anyways better.
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Post by vegasflash on Jul 5, 2017 15:58:37 GMT
Some debuffs just suck. That does not mean debuffs suck. It means some things need buffs. Invasion is amazing because it affects large numbers of enemies, inflicting a significant defense penalty/ damage bonus, and thus makes any weapon that isn't one shotting enemies without it anyways better. that's only if the enemies are bunched up together or you caught them at their spawn. And even then, it's not sustainable in a fast paced/run n gun type of game because of recovery. You aint debuffing every enemy invasion takes away points that you could've put in fitness/shield boost/overload/passives which is way more useful good weapon/skillset of the players/teammates/pace of the game/etc makes invasion near useless 1 point is enough on it |
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Post by vegasflash on Jul 5, 2017 16:02:15 GMT
exactly, especially if three of your teammates are good players, you don't really need to debuff LOL like i said on my topic title "high level play" obviously debuffs have its situational uses (especially if the team is camping and has sub-standard skill), but at high level play where everyone is running and gunning, and among good players, it's FUCKING useless
and people who say otherwise are lying. invasion/flamethrower, don't specc ANYTHING on it, or that idiotic"35% damage from cold/heat/electricity" tree, or "enemy takes 20% damage from all sources" LMFAo as if 20% is even noticeable if everyone else is running and gunning. I like how you state substandard skill, as if the majority of players is able to run and gun, do gold solo's and kill every mook in under half a second. But when you say elemental tech is worthless you're just wrong. Incinerate self benefits from that, impact and dot, and the fire explosion if detonated. Saying it's useless couldn't be farther from the truth. And invasion is incredibly useful, as it spreads to other targets. Even with a running and gunning team I'm often surprised how many enemies it infects. da fuck am i gonna do? wait for invasion to spread on purpose before i kill them? because the enemies would've been already DEAD by the time it spreads to 1 other target most enemies are rarely bunched up unless they just spawned). Good luck trying to debuff a flyign enemy and a ground enemy at the same time, or a fast running adhi and a slow moving hydra you must suck in this game LOL in a team full of skilled players where run n gun/fast paced/erratic gameplay and every enemies dying as fast as possible, DPS is king. invasion fucking sucks among skilled players at high level play, you have to factor in the optimal meta build. SKIP invasion and max overload/shield boost/fitness/passives. You don't need it, or a fast run anhi and a slow walking hydra |
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Post by lennybusker on Jul 5, 2017 16:04:12 GMT
You know what I do when I pop Invasion while I'm on SalOp? Immediately shoot and kill whoever I just infected. The animation time to cast it is longer than it takes to kill something if you have anything resembling aim and a good weapon.
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Post by vegasflash on Jul 5, 2017 16:07:10 GMT
You know what I do when I pop Invasion while I'm on SalOp? Immediately shoot and kill whoever I just infected. The animation time to cast it is longer than it takes to kill something if you have anything resembling aim and a good weapon. and by the time you killed that enemy after it got debuffed, the enemy would've been already dead if you simply just shot it, or your teammate would've already killed it. Notice how you see my topic title "at high level play" which means at optimal level of skill, INVASION IS FUCKING USELESS and not needed |
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Post by lennybusker on Jul 5, 2017 16:10:02 GMT
You know what I do when I pop Invasion while I'm on SalOp? Immediately shoot and kill whoever I just infected. The animation time to cast it is longer than it takes to kill something if you have anything resembling aim and a good weapon. and by the time you killed that enemy after it got debuffed, the enemy would've been already dead if you simply just shot it, or your teammate would've already killed it. Notice how you see my topic title "at high level play" which means at optimal level of skill, INVASION IS FUCKING USELESS and not needed Unfortunately there isn't enough player base to get competitive records going or else we'd see teams trying different compositions, but I'd be gobsmacked if the best times were anything other than 4 weapon-based kits. |
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Post by vegasflash on Jul 5, 2017 16:24:12 GMT
whatever man
have fun doing that slow asss floaty animation just to debuff one enemy, and have fun waiting for it to run around hoping it infects others.
Because in an actual team full of skilled players, it's fucking useless
invasion is fine at level 1, and max overload/shield boost/fitness/passive because overload/shield boost is WAY more useful
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Post by iteron_MkV on Jul 5, 2017 16:31:26 GMT
The problem isn't so much debuffing in itself, it's the fact that if you are flamethrowing a hydra/fiend/whatever you are probably in a position to get blown up from 3 other directions anyway. That boss is also probably targeting you due to proximity, limiting its team utility. Damage debuffs just don't seem all that useful when whatever is worth debuffing will still probably 1-2 shot you regardless.
Effective crowd control would be a far better option, CC'd enemies can't do damage, but the options at this point are basically Cryo ammo or kit abilities. Cryo ammo as a CC option doesn't work because if you are already shooting that target the best way to neutralize is it to just kill it. If you are using kit abilities to CC you are likely doing no or negligible DPS against unshielded mooks; time that could be spent eliminating an enemy and thus eliminating their damage. If there was a kit that had meaningful CC against a fiend, that would be CC worth using.
On the flip side - my TSol with Shadow and Sustained Fire provide one of the best debuffs in the game and guess what, it's a debuff that makes shit die faster just by making shit die.
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Post by gethadept on Jul 5, 2017 16:35:20 GMT
Is situational damage boost considered debuff or DPS boosting?  |
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Post by vegasflash on Jul 5, 2017 16:37:55 GMT
The problem isn't so much debuffing in itself, it's the fact that if you are flamethrowing a hydra/fiend/whatever you are probably in a position to get blown up by from 3 other directions anyway. That boss is also probably targeting you anyway due to proximity, limiting its team utility. Damage debuffs just don't seem all that useful when whatever is worth debuffing will still probably 1-2 shot you regardless. Effective crowd control would be a far better option, CC'd enemies can't do damage, but the options at this point are basically Cryo ammo or kit abilities. Cryo ammo as a CC option doesn't work because if you are already shooting that target the best way to neutralize is it to just kill it. If you are using kit abilities to CC you are likely doing no or negligible DPS, time that could be spent eliminating and enemy and thus eliminating their damage. If there was a kit that had meaningful CC against a fiend, that would be CC worth using. On the flip side - my TSol with Shadow and Sustained Fire provide one of the best debuffs in the game and guess what, it's a debuff that makes shit die faster just by making shit die. yeah, for some reason flamethrower just doesn't mix well with the turian agent i have 1 point on flamethrower and taht's good enough. I can still use it for crowd control(against mooks) the 80% damage debuff is useless because i don't get hit anyway thanks to cloak |
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Post by onehitparry on Jul 5, 2017 17:11:08 GMT
vegasflash and killabkilledb are both on PS4. Why don't we have a Thunderdome to determine the "King of the Douchebags"? That might result in a "don't cross the streams" effect. |
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Post by Mobius Y on Jul 5, 2017 17:24:54 GMT
It's the debuffs while inflicting DPS that amp up additional DPS and lower TTK while playing solo, things like the Soldier's ~24% debuff that gets 2% applied per bullet and stacks X times. It's easy to say "DPS wins" which in theory it should but in practice was not the case on ME3 for Platinum. Ideally three characters with high DPS and a fourth for crowd control and/or group debuffing made for the easiest Platinum runs. The TTK on high-HP bosses is a lot lower after two or so debuffs have been applied. Luckily it's easy to put together characters with good DPS, a below-average TTK, and and applicable debuff. The thing is on Gold it's impractical to try and debuff all the trash enemies and sub-bosses and save the cooldown/animation time for actual boss-class enemies, but on Platinum where there's likely more bosses you're better off putting out as many debuffs as possible.
I guess in a way I'm agreeing with you but not wholly because debuffing and crowd control have their uses and purpose in numerous events.
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