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Post by Walter Black on Aug 17, 2017 21:47:50 GMT
Much has been made about how Inquisition railroads the player into being the Hero, whether they want to be or not. Gone are the days of Bioware past when players had greater and more meaningful control of their characters. Now I'm sure several people will point out many of the games darker choices, but compared to classic Bioware, they seem less evil and more ruthlessly pragmatic; where they options to cause genocide (not meta-game through poor choices, but actively participate)? Where can we sacrifice people to warlocks and demons, especially love Interests? Where can we own slaves, or mystically bind people to our wills? Where can we force people into killing their spouses, or even children?
Now before someone inevitably whines "you're just a sadist who wants to turn our heroic fantasy into murder sims! Bioware has grown out of such adolescent wish fulfillment and is moving towards more progressive ideals!" First:
1) All of these were legitimate roleplaying options in previous Bioware games, like Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Knights of the Old Republic, Mass Effect and Dragon Age: Origins.
2) It was never just heroic fantasy, but Role Playing in general. Players were allowed to be good, evil, neutral, sarcastic trolls, common folk in over their heads, and everything in between. I myself want to RP as many different personality types as possible. What's the point in buying a $60 game with 100+ hours of content, if you're just going to play the same way every time?
3) Nice try confusing fantasy with reality, and a poor attempt at shaming those who like darker stories. Sorry, but enjoying stories with Villain Protagonists does NOT mean you want try such options in real life, or that you follow those ideals . On the contrary, it's because these stories and options are in fictional and safe environment that appeal to us. Frankly, I find it childish to assume someone must be a bigoted, perverted serial killer just because of their taste in RPG choices (or any other fictional indulgences).
"So what's the point of Evil choices in a fantasy RPG" you ask? Well, what's the "point" of friendship and romance able Companions? What's the point of multiple quest options? Because it makes for an interesting story. Oh, you don't like Evil options? Don't play them ! How does other players selecting different options affect your game in the slightest? "It draws resources away from the good ones," you say? The whole point of an RPG is player choice. You knew this coming in, and to complain otherwise is like going to a Chinese restaurant and ask why they have no pizza.
Speaking purely for myself, just because I would like Evil choices to return, doesn't mean I want Dragon Age 4 to become Postal; a story and character driven RPG should have proper consequences. If I make everyone fear and hate me, then it should be that much harder to gain allies and resources. If I kick someone down enough, they should betray me. I am not looking to become a Villain Sue, I want that challenge. I also want to RP Superman, Wolverine, and Deadpool along with Doctor Doom and the Joker. Sadly, I fear the current Bioware lacks the creativity, artistic integrity, player respect, or shear balls to allow truly evil PCs anymore. I really, really hope I'm wrong though...
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Post by Catilina on Aug 17, 2017 22:26:27 GMT
I like to see these, but probably never would choose. I like the wide range of decisions, even if I don't like o use all.
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Post by themikefest on Aug 17, 2017 22:45:46 GMT
depends on what someone calls evil. I wouldn't complain if I could play a character that is extremely ruthless.
The one scene I would call evil in any of the DA games is Hawke letting Meredith kill Bethany. I did that once.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Aug 17, 2017 23:14:53 GMT
depends on what someone calls evil. I wouldn't complain if I could play a character that is extremely ruthless. The one scene I would call evil in any of the DA games is Hawke letting Meredith kill Bethany. I did that once. Letting Kitty have Amalia? Letting Torpor (I think) have that kid in DA2? Those were a couple of pretty evil options, weren't they?
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Aug 17, 2017 23:16:03 GMT
Yes - provided consequences.
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Post by naughtynomad on Aug 18, 2017 0:33:21 GMT
Yes - provided consequences. I want evil with a purpose. Not just kicking kittens. Making deals with demons is great as long as it gives the player a tempting reward. In Origins the most evil decision is arguably sacrificing Isolde to do the blood magic ritual to enter the Fade, and once there striking a deal with the desire demon to let her possess connor for for learning the secrets of Blood Magic. This was the only way to unlock Blood Mage specialization in the game. Things like that are what need to make a comeback.
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Post by cmoe on Aug 18, 2017 0:55:31 GMT
Evil with consequences or just choices with consequences. I am not sure I would play evil, but I do believe having that option is an important part of what makes an RPG great.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Aug 18, 2017 1:23:46 GMT
I was confused by reading "truly evil" and "return" in the same sentence. You can't return to something that has never happened. TRULY evil in DAO would have been helping the Blight and making sure no GW survived to kill the Archdemon. TRULY evil in DA2 would have been to blow up the Chantry AND the Circle. TRULY evil in DAI would have been to save both the GW and Hawke and let the demon army pour through the rift. DA4 must let you side with Solas and dance while the shemlen burn to have a TRULY evil option.
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Post by cmoe on Aug 18, 2017 2:22:01 GMT
DA4 must let you side with Solas and dance while the shemlen burn to have a TRULY evil option. Now that's a choice I would love to try.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Aug 18, 2017 3:37:19 GMT
I was confused by reading "truly evil" and "return" in the same sentence. You can't return to something that has never happened. TRULY evil in DAO would have been helping the Blight and making sure no GW survived to kill the Archdemon. TRULY evil in DA2 would have been to blow up the Chantry AND the Circle. TRULY evil in DAI would have been to save both the GW and Hawke and let the demon army pour through the rift.DA4 must let you side with Solas and dance while the shemlen burn to have a TRULY evil option. I don't know....I think the bolded is just Saturday morning cartoon evil (I'm going to destroy the world!!!) and also completely insane (the darkspawn/demons will likely just kill you too). The italicized is evil...sort of, but more the actions of a ruthless opportunist (assuming it was done by a Hawke who could become Viscount. The underlined is nuts...unless you're an elf, then we roll back around to ruthless opportunist. Truly evil acts - that aren't insane - would, of necessity, impart some kind of future or immediate benefit to the one committing them, wouldn't they? If I'm stuck on an island with a bunch of kids and I decide to kill them to make the food we have last longer so that I can rescued, that's truly evil. If I'm stuck on the same island with a bunch of similarly physically capable adults and I survive by killing them all, that's just ruthless pragmatism. Letting the darkspawn take over, or the demons through the rift would be akin to burning all the food and watching the people on the island starve alongside me. Evil...and insane.
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luketrevelyan
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by luketrevelyan on Aug 18, 2017 3:42:00 GMT
Kotor is my favorite game to be evil. There is something about Star Wars in general where the bad guys are cool though. They also made the NPCs ridiculously annoying in thst game so you were quite tempted to be mean to them.
So yeah I welcome more evil choices in DA4. It adds great replayability and value even when not choosing the options.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Aug 18, 2017 3:43:55 GMT
Kotor is my favorite game to be evil. There is something about Star Wars in general where the bad guys are cool though. They also made the NPCs ridiculously annoying in thst game so you were quite tempted to be mean to them. So yeah I welcome more evil choices in DA4. It adds great replayability and value even when not choosing the options. Oh yeah...the dark side late game cinematics are AWESOME. Like, before Carth and the others know, but you're with Bastila....
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Post by phoray on Aug 18, 2017 4:19:57 GMT
depends on what someone calls evil. I wouldn't complain if I could play a character that is extremely ruthless. The one scene I would call evil in any of the DA games is Hawke letting Meredith kill Bethany. I did that once. Letting Kitty have Amalia? Letting Torpor (I think) have that kid in DA2? Those were a couple of pretty evil options, weren't they? The One time I sided with Meredith, I was playing a hypocrtical sarcastic mage who made a snap decision. No Bethany was available, but Warden Carver was like *looks around at the carnage" "How can you fight your own people?" I felt like I'd been slapped. It was just dialogue, but I felt punished. I let Torpor have the kid in DA2 on my 3rd evil PT and I hated myself for a few hours afterwards. the kids final words got me. I haven't let Kitty have amalia intentionally. One time I clicked through the dialogue too quickly but I reloaded. I can't remember her offer being that tempting and I don't find Evil Warden to be as funny as Evil Hawke.
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Post by phoray on Aug 18, 2017 4:38:22 GMT
I think another pragmatic/evil option is killing Connor. I'm going to do it my next PT with my conventional anti demon circle mage. I hear he asks what being dead is like in his little child like voice. I'll bruise my little gamer heart to see/hear it.
But to answer the OP, Evil Pragmatism needs to be brought back. The "evil" decisions that can be explained with a motive that isn't JUST murderous glee. Like killing the Lord in the first act of DA2. Hawke says, "It's nothing personal." Like, he's doing a job and he's getting paid and he lives in lowtown. Sometimes you will stoop that low to keep food on the table, them's the medieval kicks. There is also sacrificing the Chargers as a pragmatic choice.
Stabbing the wounded soldier and the man in a cage in DAO were funny but absurd. I learned recently you can randomly murder the man who has Dorian's Locket. Why this is especially absurd to me is we are in the middle of VR's marketplace, there is no way that murder went un witnessed. and as far as I know, the only consequence is Dorian's disapproval (only his, even if you have two other someone's in your party) and you can't romance Dorian anymore.
I read someone's idea about DA4 evil... Like, maintaining your cover or even working towards a Magister Alliance requiring you to stand by and let a slave be tortured. Similar to a scene in TW3 where you let a companion be tortured so you can get information from a head witch hunter to show how much you don't care (even though ya totally do.)
Recently, in MEA, SAM told me I had to stand there and not intervene on a citizen's beating. The fact that it wasn't a choice enforced my feeling of complete helplessness but it would have been great RP potential if it HAD been a choice.
Also, sacrificing those with a face for a cause. Like in ME1, Kaidan vs Ashley but even more optional. Not an either or choice between two people, but straight up letting a companion die to make something really important happen without a hitch. If you don't let them die 3 troubles spawn up, or you miss out on a major alliance.
Decisions should have weight. If they have weight, they can hurt my feelz. I'm playing these interactive games to feel the full range of emotions. It's not a good game if I don't agonize about at least one decision and then take my Hawke/Ryder/Shepard/Geralt for a drink (or 6) at the bar.
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Post by Zemgus on Aug 18, 2017 6:10:20 GMT
I do want evil choices to return - but I want it to be so that just because you choose a choice that may be seen as "evil" it doesn't have to be. It could be, but your intentions could also be good or neutral. For example: your superior tells you to kill bunch of innocent people. Someone will obey gladly (evil), someone will refuse and help the people escape instead (good) and someone will do what they're told even if they wish they didn't have to (neutral). That kind of choices I want - that aren't inherently evil unless you make it so. Good different dialogue options will help a lot with that.
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vit246
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR
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Post by vit246 on Aug 18, 2017 6:20:18 GMT
I want KOTOR 2 style evil choices that Kreia would approve of. A pragmatic kind of evil with a purpose to it.
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House Targaryen
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The night is dark and full of terrors, but the fire burns them all away.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: gscott7833
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Post by House Targaryen on Aug 18, 2017 6:54:48 GMT
Sure why not. I always wanted an evil elf Inquisitor who hated humans and used the inquisition to their own ends. And at the end game of Trespasser, they agree to help Solas out with his diabolical plan to return the world back to the old days of elfy glory.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Aug 18, 2017 7:14:17 GMT
DA4 must let you side with Solas and dance while the shemlen burn to have a TRULY evil option. I'd probably do that at least once, given the option.
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wright1978
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by wright1978 on Aug 18, 2017 7:29:43 GMT
Sure why not. I always wanted an evil elf Inquisitor who hated humans and used the inquisition to their own ends. And at the end game of Trespasser, they agree to help Solas out with his diabolical plan to return the world back to the old days of elfy glory. Might have saved any feeling for my inquisitor if she'd been able to help solas restore the world.
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Post by Sifr on Aug 18, 2017 7:36:27 GMT
I'd love the option to be able to play the game as more of a villain protagonist or well-intentioned extremist, so even if the narrative forces us to save the world or our overall goal is achieving something positive, we're allowed to use despicable means and methods in order to get there. How much fun would it be to use Blood Magic to nudge people into doing certain things, similar to the Force Persuade option in KOTOR? The games/lore has already established that Blood Magic can be used in such a manner and people don't even necessarily realise they're being whammied if a blood mage is subtle enough and the target isn't actively resisting them. Give us some moral complexity and force us to have make some hard choices that might be distasteful, but cannot be helped because to do otherwise would risk us losing everything. If you want to have the protagonist show some regret about their actions, give them some dialogue reminiscent of Sisko's confession in the DS9 episode "In the Pale Moonlight"; "I lied, I cheated. I bribed men to cover the crimes of other men. I am an accessory to murder. But the most damning thing of all... I think I can live with it. And if I had to do it all over again... I would."
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Post by isaidlunch on Aug 18, 2017 7:42:17 GMT
Absolutely. I will be so disappointed if I can't side with Solas by the end of DA4, make Thedas great again!
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Aug 18, 2017 7:59:14 GMT
Absolutely. I will be so disappointed if I can't side with Solas by the end of DA4, make Thedas great again! Fake news. He wants to tear down the big beautiful wall.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2017 12:39:29 GMT
Yes, I like an option to play an evil character, either consistently throughout the game (with the different outcome than the shiny hero) or being evil selectively when characters in the game/situation makes me want to be that. I also would love the character to sound different when he is doing evil things. And the cosmetic changes like taint that come with it.
as mentioned above, SWTOR allowed for a variety of evil personalities, and the contrasts between the outcomes for the PC were very cool as well as voice-acting in some stories, just brilliant. Also, in some stories, doing the traditional good thing resulted in being reprimanded by your superiors. The LS Trooper, for example, was in conflict with the General, and it was resolved beautifully in the Epilogue of the story on Rishi....
i'd love, love, love the more clear-cut and contrasting moral choices with the consequences back in the games.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2017 12:46:10 GMT
Sure why not. I always wanted an evil elf Inquisitor who hated humans and used the inquisition to their own ends. And at the end game of Trespasser, they agree to help Solas out with his diabolical plan to return the world back to the old days of elfy glory. I wanted to play a non-elf Inquisitor who did that!
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eriador117
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Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
Posts: 285 Likes: 464
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Post by eriador117 on Aug 18, 2017 14:13:01 GMT
I wouldn't mind the option to be there, but it's probably one I wouldn't choose. I can't even play Red!Hawke without getting panicky But for others to try, go for it. I wonder why they never kept the choice that was in most of the trailers: Lead them or fall? Maybe you could have destroyed the Inquisition from within or something like that?
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