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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 29, 2017 1:14:30 GMT
There is the issue of the Red Lyrium though...much like how Vengance was a catalyst for amplifying Anders and his feelings too. External forces made manifest had to contain some sort of effect, no? Agreed. Between the Red Lyrium idol and Vengeance, as well as things like the Veil being very thin in Kirkwall, I doubt either side would have gone as far as they did.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 29, 2017 1:21:41 GMT
I'd actually expect you to be first in line to kill him considering her opinion on certain characters. Unless he is your Eren of course which I guess fits since both strive for a better world but have no regard for the cost along the way including causing the deaths of hundreds of innocent people ironically making them no better and possibly worse than those they are fighting against. Oh it would have been worse. Even if somehow the mages won the people of Thedas would not have let it stood after all the death and destruction the war would have caused, massive witch hunts resulting in untold number of mages and sympathizers being killed or the mages essentially creating another Tevinter Imperium. And if they lost all that but also those who aren't killed would be sent to a new Circle system that has none of the pros that the old had but all of the cons cranked up to eleven. If it wasn't for the Breach upending everything, the world would have been strife with conflict that made the war we see seem pleasant and last for decades. Not to mention that really once things got that bad the Qun would have made their move and everyone would be under them, which means a much worse fate for mages than the Circle. Eren does what he has to do to and same with Mikasa, she is strong and loyal. They can't keep living like that, walled up, rich on the inside. Scouts always fighting. It's got to end. But that doesn't happen. Yes people on both sides will want vengeance, it happens in most wars. Wars are messy and there is a cost but sometimes war is needed. And when it ends don't the people for the most part come together, in this case the mages will be free. War with the Qun is inevitable whether the mages are free or not, Sten was scouting and learning in preparation. So you support Eren killing hundreds of innocent people, those he is sworn to protect? You agree with the whole "To rise above monsters we have to abandon out humanity" mindset that he follows? I said if it wasn't for the events of Inquisition. I know what I said doesn't happen because Inquisition does. If Inquisition did not, the things I said would have since we already see that in some cases. I disagree that war is sometimes needed. War is merely one method of diplomacy. However, it is the least efficient one. As for afterwords people coming together, no. History is full of groups of people holding grudges that can lead to centuries of conflict. The times that happens are an exception, not the rule. Especially for the time period Thedas mirrors. Sten was scouting and learning of the Blight since the Qun had never experienced it.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 29, 2017 1:30:29 GMT
There is the issue of the Red Lyrium though...much like how Vengance was a catalyst for amplifying Anders and his feelings too. External forces made manifest had to contain some sort of effect, no? It was mutual between Anders and Justice. I do not really think, that Anders' counterpart would be Meredith. Not even his real enemy. His enemy was Elthina, that sloth demon. For me, that red lyrium thing is a symbol of the temptation. Meredith's fate's brilliant: she died as her feared blood mages. In her self-complacency, she dealt such a power what finally destroyed her. She became a uncontrollabe abomination and totally lost herself. Anders didn't. This also depends of viewpoint, but I think Anders didn't want revenge, he wanted freedom. Sebastian wanted revenge at the end. Perhaps, is weird, but for me, Sebastian is Anders/Justice's counterpoint. If Hawke doesn't kill him, he threats Hawke, to back with his army, and destroys Kirkwall. And he keeps his word. Even after 3+ years, in the middle of the world disaster, for his own pure personal revenge. Without any spirit or demon... So: he was the real Vengeance.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 29, 2017 1:42:38 GMT
Anders knew, that Meredith' cruel, criminal, but he didn't know about the level of Meredith's madness. I wrote: Elthina wouldn't stop the Annulment. And you talk about Meredith as an unstoppable rabid dog... but that rabid dog were promoted by Elthina herself... If Anders (an outsider) knew, that Meredith's a dangerous killer machine, Elthina also knew about it. Elthina would stop the Annulment because she has been stopping the Annulment. One of the bad Templars(can't remember his name) talks about how Meredith has been submitting it but Elthina keeps refusing them. And with how much Anders knew of the going-ons inside the Gallows he knew that as well. Especially since again he talks about the Kirkwall Circle being killed is part of the plan since it will cause the other Circles to rise up. Meredith wasn't always like that. It was the Red Lyrium idol that changed her between Act 2 and Act 3. In Act 2 we see a different Meredith like how she is against tranquilizing all the mages(which she has the opposite stance on in Act 3) and even Anders talks about her in a good light albeit with a backhanded compliment. Elthina refused Meredith's request, but Meredith sent the request to Val Royeaux. Elthina wouldn't stop the Annulment with the Divine's signature. That wouldn't her responsibility, so, she could sleep calmly with it. Meredith was a criminal (even according to the Chantry's law), and cruel, and wanted to rule over the whole City, from the beginning (when Hawke arrived in Kirkwall, the first guard told that). Elthina didn't stop her, despite that she's a law-breaker. In fact, she supported her. Anders didn't want to kill the Mages, wanted to awaken the mages. Their fate has been decided already.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 29, 2017 1:53:04 GMT
There is the issue of the Red Lyrium though...much like how Vengance was a catalyst for amplifying Anders and his feelings too. External forces made manifest had to contain some sort of effect, no? Agreed. Between the Red Lyrium idol and Vengeance, as well as things like the Veil being very thin in Kirkwall, I doubt either side would have gone as far as they did. I can agree with this. But never forget: the Starkhaven Circle was almost crueler than the Kirkwall Circle. Thrask said, that the Templars in Starkhaven killed mages randomly to keep in fear the others. At Starkhaven, the Veil was normal.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 29, 2017 2:03:03 GMT
Agreed. Between the Red Lyrium idol and Vengeance, as well as things like the Veil being very thin in Kirkwall, I doubt either side would have gone as far as they did. I can agree with this. But never forget: the Starkhaven Circle was almost crueler than the Kirkwall Circle. Thrask said, that the Templars in Starkhaven killed mages randomly to keep in fear the others. At Starkhaven, the Veil was normal. True, though on the other hand there were Circles where the mages were treated fairly to even great.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 29, 2017 2:08:35 GMT
I can agree with this. But never forget: the Starkhaven Circle was almost crueler than the Kirkwall Circle. Thrask said, that the Templars in Starkhaven killed mages randomly to keep in fear the others. At Starkhaven, the Veil was normal. True, though on the other hand there were Circles where the mages were treated fairly to even great. Still prisons. Unacceptable. Calenhad Tower was The Best Circle in Southern-Thedas(TM)... was terrible. And this is the problem "the Mages were treated fairly". I don't like this wording. Sick. Dorian said, that there are families, where the slaves were treated fairly... in fact as a family member!
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 29, 2017 2:12:30 GMT
True, though on the other hand there were Circles where the mages were treated fairly to even great. Still prisons. Unacceptable. And this is the problem "the Mages were treated fairly". I don't like this wording. Sick. Dorian said, that there are families, where the slaves were treated fairly... in fact as a family member! I agree, a gilded cage is still a cage and all that, but I was just trying to say that the Circles of Starkhaven and Kirkwall are more the exception than the rule. What's wrong with the word treated? What synonym of that would you prefer?
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Post by Catilina on Aug 29, 2017 2:21:44 GMT
Still prisons. Unacceptable. And this is the problem "the Mages were treated fairly". I don't like this wording. Sick. Dorian said, that there are families, where the slaves were treated fairly... in fact as a family member! I agree, a gilded cage is still a cage and all that, but I was just trying to say that the Circles of Starkhaven and Kirkwall are more the exception than the rule. What's wrong with the word treated? What synonym of that would you prefer? In Rivain, worked a friendly Circle, where the Mages lived with their family. Annulled. (9:40, Dragon) I can't explain, my English is weak. Perhaps, I'm wrong. But I don't like "treated as people" "treated fairly"... so, I said, maybe i'm wrong.
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Post by Gileadan on Aug 29, 2017 7:07:51 GMT
Terrorist, obviously.
A spirit of Justice was corrupted into Vengeance by inhabiting Ander's murderous mind. Had Anders' goals truly been noble, then the aspect of Justice within him should have been enhanced, transforming him into a radiant, charismatic champion for the oppressed. But we all know what he became.
This does not mean that Meredith is less of a lunatic, of course. But a monster that opposes another monster does not become less of a monster itself by that act. Ask little Ella if you still can.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 29, 2017 11:00:55 GMT
Terrorist, obviously. A spirit of Justice was corrupted into Vengeance by inhabiting Ander's murderous mind. Had Anders' goals truly been noble, then the aspect of Justice within him should have been enhanced, transforming him into a radiant, charismatic champion for the oppressed. But we all know what he became. This does not mean that Meredith is less of a lunatic, of course. But a monster that opposes another monster does not become less of a monster itself by that act. Ask little Ella if you still can. Okay, of course, I disagree about what was Anders/Justice, but you still right about that Anders' influence shaped Justice. People tend to forget that possible (very possible) he corrupted Justice, not the opposite. Many people see Awakening-Anders as cute kitty-boy. (Hardly after one-year solitary confinement, where his only friend was a cat, who finally possessed by a Rage Demon... Anders' mind "called" it?) But the only thing, why he wants just to fly instead the open conflict is that it's difficult. Not because of this against his ideas. This man didn't change so much what many people think. Justice? Perhaps, at least with a lot more chance. The spirits reflect the human's emotions and thoughts when connects with them. Kristof's memory inspired him against the Darkspawn, and have aroused his interest toward the love. When he spoke with Anders, he s found a new goal. And Kristof's memories didn't refresh anymore, but Anders' influence was living. Anders was a good person, but his anger was strong. (And we cant forget about the Taint – who knows, what effect have the Taint on the spririts, and the weakened Veil at Kirkwall) And I go further: What would happen, if he would meet Justice in Awakening, and befriend with him, but they not merge? I don't know, that would be enough what Justice told him. But possibly yes. He said, that after they talked, he wasn't able to stop to thinking about what Justice told him in related his duty toward his fellow Mages (DA2, Act1, Isabela banter: "Justice once asked me why I didn't do more for other mages. I told him it was too much work. But I couldn't go back after that. Couldn't stop thinking about it.") This conversation has changed him undoubtedly, strengthened him in his conviction, true, I don't know, that would enough to carry through such a plan. In this case, perhaps he would stay in Kirkwall, and work with the Mage Underground. He wasn't as cold as the Spirit of Justice (not a "good" spirit, just righteous), but he was still angry. After that Meredith destroyed the Mage Underground, he would be able to blow up the Chantry alone? Perhaps. Perhaps not. Probably he needed Justice's coldness. And probably he needed Justice's unwavering insistence to their goal. Anders, without Justice, was not too persistent, he preferred the easy ways, probably he would fly again at the first difficulty. I know, this only a theory. But I disagree with the viewpoint that everything is Justice/Vengeance fault. And I think, Anders/Justice still not a Monster, but has some anger control-problem (Ella's case). Kirkwall's not the ideal place to cure it, but was ideal place to starting a revolution.
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Post by Sah291 on Aug 29, 2017 19:52:32 GMT
Terrorist, obviously. A spirit of Justice was corrupted into Vengeance by inhabiting Ander's murderous mind. Had Anders' goals truly been noble, then the aspect of Justice within him should have been enhanced, transforming him into a radiant, charismatic champion for the oppressed. But we all know what he became. This does not mean that Meredith is less of a lunatic, of course. But a monster that opposes another monster does not become less of a monster itself by that act. Ask little Ella if you still can. How about Hawke? Hawke can be plenty charismatic, and is already considered a hero to the city, who manages to gain a sizable amount of wealth and influence. If you think Hakwe might have been able to succeed in actually stopping the war and promoting peaceful change as Viscount, had only Anders not acted, then that's one thing. Personally, I didn't think so, since things had already reached a boiling point, Hawke was also surrounded by too many enemies on all sides. And if Hawke was a mage, even less chance of that happening. You have to consider, not even the nobility had power to select their own head of state...even the Viscount is there at discretion of the Templars/Chantry.
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Post by Gileadan on Aug 29, 2017 21:53:23 GMT
How about Hawke? Hawke can be plenty charismatic, and is already considered a hero to the city, who manages to gain a sizable amount of wealth and influence. If you think Hakwe might have been able to succeed in actually stopping the war and promoting peaceful change as Viscount, had only Anders not acted, then that's one thing. Personally, I didn't think so, since things had already reached a boiling point, Hawke was also surrounded by too many enemies on all sides. And if Hawke was a mage, even less chance of that happening. You have to consider, not even the nobility had power to select their own head of state...even the Viscount is there at discretion of the Templars/Chantry. To be honest, my spirit healer Hawke considered himself a champion of the people of Kirkwall, the common folks that doesn't have templar or mage powers. A peaceful resolution between two factions he wasn't very fond of was not his top priority - any resolution was fine really as long as the common folk would not be harmed in the process. Had the game allowed me complete freedom in the situation, my Hawke would have told mages and templars to go and have at it - but the moment they harmed the common populace they'd very much wish they hadn't. What could they have done about that anyway? It's not like two hostile factions would suddenly unite because some guy or girl refused to join either of them. And Hawke was very good at killing people - no one with half a brain would have taken that statement lightly. Alas, I had to pick a side.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 29, 2017 22:58:09 GMT
How about Hawke? Hawke can be plenty charismatic, and is already considered a hero to the city, who manages to gain a sizable amount of wealth and influence. If you think Hakwe might have been able to succeed in actually stopping the war and promoting peaceful change as Viscount, had only Anders not acted, then that's one thing. Personally, I didn't think so, since things had already reached a boiling point, Hawke was also surrounded by too many enemies on all sides. And if Hawke was a mage, even less chance of that happening. You have to consider, not even the nobility had power to select their own head of state...even the Viscount is there at discretion of the Templars/Chantry. To be honest, my spirit healer Hawke considered himself a champion of the people of Kirkwall, the common folks that doesn't have templar or mage powers. A peaceful resolution between two factions he wasn't very fond of was not his top priority - any resolution was fine really as long as the common folk would not be harmed in the process. Had the game allowed me complete freedom in the situation, my Hawke would have told mages and templars to go and have at it - but the moment they harmed the common populace they'd very much wish they hadn't. What could they have done about that anyway? It's not like two hostile factions would suddenly unite because some guy or girl refused to join either of them. And Hawke was very good at killing people - no one with half a brain would have taken that statement lightly. Alas, I had to pick a side. For me, this game was about what powerless is Hawke, and how hopeless is a man, who only wants peace, no matter, what cost. This man will fall, as every little man, who doesn't choose a side between of the "safe" oppression and the "risky" freedom. When I tried to play as a "responsible" man, I felt uncomfortable, my character failed at his cause: to keep the city safe and peace, and to force to step back the cancer of the city: Meredith. I felt desperate anger when every try for the peaceful AND humane solution's failed on Meredith and Elthina. At the end, this Hawke chose his idiot Templar brother and killed his friend for the city, despite his conviction. The Viscount title was 30 pieces of silver coin. Dirty. (Fortunately, as I heard, the Templars finally did not trust Viscount!Hawke and s/he forced to leave Kirkwall. I don't know, this is canon but gave me a little satisfaction.) And I know: this Hawke is Inquisition's burned out, disappointed bastard. So, I came back to my style. My Hawkes (except the above one) chose exile and rescued all their friends and the remained family, and live happily ever after... until Varric's call. And at least they did something against the corrupted system.
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Post by linksocarina on Aug 29, 2017 23:34:44 GMT
How about Hawke? Hawke can be plenty charismatic, and is already considered a hero to the city, who manages to gain a sizable amount of wealth and influence. If you think Hakwe might have been able to succeed in actually stopping the war and promoting peaceful change as Viscount, had only Anders not acted, then that's one thing. Personally, I didn't think so, since things had already reached a boiling point, Hawke was also surrounded by too many enemies on all sides. And if Hawke was a mage, even less chance of that happening. You have to consider, not even the nobility had power to select their own head of state...even the Viscount is there at discretion of the Templars/Chantry. To be honest, my spirit healer Hawke considered himself a champion of the people of Kirkwall, the common folks that doesn't have templar or mage powers. A peaceful resolution between two factions he wasn't very fond of was not his top priority - any resolution was fine really as long as the common folk would not be harmed in the process. Had the game allowed me complete freedom in the situation, my Hawke would have told mages and templars to go and have at it - but the moment they harmed the common populace they'd very much wish they hadn't. What could they have done about that anyway? It's not like two hostile factions would suddenly unite because some guy or girl refused to join either of them. And Hawke was very good at killing people - no one with half a brain would have taken that statement lightly. Alas, I had to pick a side. which side did you pick?
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Post by Gileadan on Aug 30, 2017 5:35:54 GMT
why would Justice transform Anders into a charismatic leader if Anders goals were truly noble. Is not freedom for mages a noble goal. This is what Anders wanted and peace for himself. But never got the feeling Anders wanted to be a leader, he never rallied the Kirkwall mages to rebel under his leadership, just lit the spark that started it. The mages in the rest of the circles took that cue and freed themselves. I'm sure some of the mages wanted to remain in the circle but most took that opportunity. After he killed the Grand Cleric and others he seemed resigned and ready to die as if his work was done. I'm no big lore expert, mind you, but it is my impression that spirits are constant and unchanging in their "personality" and aspect. For them to change in any way requires a strong outside influence. Spirit healers are people merged with a spirit of compassion, Seekers are merged with a spirit of faith. These spirits don't turn into something else on a whim, they enhance that aspect of the person. Anders merged with a spirit of Justice, but his mind was violent enough to corrupt that spirit into Vengeance. While Freedom for mages is certainly a noble goal, Anders' anger and violence corrupted that noble goal and the spirit along with it. I agree that Anders didn't want to be a leader though. But if he had wanted to be a leader (or just a soldier) for a good cause from the bottom of his heart, then merging with a spirit of Justice should have aided him in that and not corrupted said spirit. For me, this game was about what powerless is Hawke, and how hopeless is a man, who only wants peace, no matter, what cost. This man will fall, as every little man, who doesn't choose a side between of the "safe" oppression and the "risky" freedom. When I tried to play as a "responsible" man, I felt uncomfortable, my character failed at his cause: to keep the city safe and peace, and to force to step back the cancer of the city: Meredith. I felt desperate anger when every try for the peaceful AND humane solution's failed on Meredith and Elthina. At the end, this Hawke chose his idiot Templar brother and killed his friend for the city, despite his conviction. The Viscount title was 30 pieces of silver coin. Dirty. (Fortunately, as I heard, the Templars finally did not trust Viscount!Hawke and s/he forced to leave Kirkwall. I don't know, this is canon but gave me a little satisfaction.) And I know: this Hawke is Inquisition's burned out, disappointed bastard. So, I came back to my style. My Hawkes (except the above one) chose exile and rescued all their friends and the remained family, and live happily ever after... until Varric's call. And at least they did something against the corrupted system. An interesting way to roleplay your Hawke! My Hawke's motivations were different for each chapter. Initially, all he wanted was to provide peace and prosperity for his family, and I was very happy at the end of chapter 1. Then the story lost me, because it had previously forced me to do Sister Petrice's quest, which I didn't care for, and then based the continuation of the storyline of something I didn't care for (Qunari), so chapter 2 saw my Hawke as a mercenary who made coin from people who just couldn't leave him alone with their problems. In chapter 3, he was fed up as hell with all the craziness and determined to wipe it off the face of his city. And go home. And have a drink. And not show up for work for a few months. I have to admit to not being overly invested in the story at the end. My decision was not a very emotional one. I chose templars, based on the thought that this would be more likely to protect the common populace of Kirkwall. Killing off the mages would be regrettable, but at least it would end there. Templars generally have little interest in mundane people, and "only" their leader was insane. The enlisted rank and file templar would probably be happy about a more quiet life anyway. Killing the templars on the other hand would not only kill the templars, but remove the controlling force between the mages (which the game had portrayed as having many, many murderous lunatics among them) and the common folks. I had seen blood mage gangs with their thralls (mind controlled citizens) before. All these people would have been free to roam the city and make it suffer. I thought they were the bigger threat.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 30, 2017 8:58:38 GMT
why would Justice transform Anders into a charismatic leader if Anders goals were truly noble. Is not freedom for mages a noble goal. This is what Anders wanted and peace for himself. But never got the feeling Anders wanted to be a leader, he never rallied the Kirkwall mages to rebel under his leadership, just lit the spark that started it. The mages in the rest of the circles took that cue and freed themselves. I'm sure some of the mages wanted to remain in the circle but most took that opportunity. After he killed the Grand Cleric and others he seemed resigned and ready to die as if his work was done. I'm no big lore expert, mind you, but it is my impression that spirits are constant and unchanging in their "personality" and aspect. For them to change in any way requires a strong outside influence. Spirit healers are people merged with a spirit of compassion, Seekers are merged with a spirit of faith. These spirits don't turn into something else on a whim, they enhance that aspect of the person. Anders merged with a spirit of Justice, but his mind was violent enough to corrupt that spirit into Vengeance. While Freedom for mages is certainly a noble goal, Anders' anger and violence corrupted that noble goal and the spirit along with it. I agree that Anders didn't want to be a leader though. But if he had wanted to be a leader (or just a soldier) for a good cause from the bottom of his heart, then merging with a spirit of Justice should have aided him in that and not corrupted said spirit. For me, this game was about what powerless is Hawke, and how hopeless is a man, who only wants peace, no matter, what cost. This man will fall, as every little man, who doesn't choose a side between of the "safe" oppression and the "risky" freedom. When I tried to play as a "responsible" man, I felt uncomfortable, my character failed at his cause: to keep the city safe and peace, and to force to step back the cancer of the city: Meredith. I felt desperate anger when every try for the peaceful AND humane solution's failed on Meredith and Elthina. At the end, this Hawke chose his idiot Templar brother and killed his friend for the city, despite his conviction. The Viscount title was 30 pieces of silver coin. Dirty. (Fortunately, as I heard, the Templars finally did not trust Viscount!Hawke and s/he forced to leave Kirkwall. I don't know, this is canon but gave me a little satisfaction.) And I know: this Hawke is Inquisition's burned out, disappointed bastard. So, I came back to my style. My Hawkes (except the above one) chose exile and rescued all their friends and the remained family, and live happily ever after... until Varric's call. And at least they did something against the corrupted system. An interesting way to roleplay your Hawke! My Hawke's motivations were different for each chapter. Initially, all he wanted was to provide peace and prosperity for his family, and I was very happy at the end of chapter 1. Then the story lost me, because it had previously forced me to do Sister Petrice's quest, which I didn't care for, and then based the continuation of the storyline of something I didn't care for (Qunari), so chapter 2 saw my Hawke as a mercenary who made coin from people who just couldn't leave him alone with their problems. In chapter 3, he was fed up as hell with all the craziness and determined to wipe it off the face of his city. And go home. And have a drink. And not show up for work for a few months. I have to admit to not being overly invested in the story at the end. My decision was not a very emotional one. I chose templars, based on the thought that this would be more likely to protect the common populace of Kirkwall. Killing off the mages would be regrettable, but at least it would end there. Templars generally have little interest in mundane people, and "only" their leader was insane. The enlisted rank and file templar would probably be happy about a more quiet life anyway. Killing the templars on the other hand would not only kill the templars, but remove the controlling force between the mages (which the game had portrayed as having many, many murderous lunatics among them) and the common folks. I had seen blood mage gangs with their thralls (mind controlled citizens) before. All these people would have been free to roam the city and make it suffer. I thought they were the bigger threat. Familiar viewpoint. This choice reminds me of Anders' choice. Killing off the people would be regrettable, but at least it would give us a chance.
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Post by Gileadan on Aug 30, 2017 9:14:38 GMT
Familiar viewpoint. This choice reminds me of Anders' choice. Killing off the people would be regrettable, but at least it would give us a chance. Not quite. Killing off the killers ends the killing, from a rather cold and logical perspective. Templars are killers of mages. Killing them ends the killing of mages. Mages in Kirkwall were killers of many people - templars and random inhabitants of Kirkwall, either by murdering them directly or by mind-controlling them as thralls in that blood mage gang you met at night. Killing mages ends the killing of many people, not just templars, and that made the difference for me. It is simplified logic, yes. There are innocents on both sides. Not all templars are fascist monsters. Not all mages are howling abominations in the making. And there are guilty people on both sides too, and they are the ones Hawke seems to run into all the time. But the game's story structure forced me to choose the lesser evil, which I picked from what I knew at the time. It was an unemotional, somewhat frustrated decision after circling around the dialogue three times and not finding the "I don't care, get out of my way" option. I would have greatly preferred to not kill anyone, because no side was blameless in this. The line of thought above would not even exist if the game hadn't forced me. And had Anders not blown up the Chantry, I would have likely taken the mages' side. I let him go, because I'm no one's executioner but my own. EDITED to reflect your edit. The difference is that, according to your quote, killing is a means to get a chance to advance a cause. To me, the killing was forced on me by the game and I tried to choose the outcome with the least amount of dead.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 30, 2017 10:22:54 GMT
Familiar viewpoint. This choice reminds me of Anders' choice. Killing off the people would be regrettable, but at least it would give us a chance. Not quite. Killing off the killers ends the killing, from a rather cold and logical perspective.Templars are killers of mages. Killing them ends the killing of mages.Mages in Kirkwall were killers of many people - templars and random inhabitants of Kirkwall, either by murdering them directly or by mind-controlling them as thralls in that blood mage gang you met at night. Killing mages ends the killing of many people, not just templars, and that made the difference for me.It is simplified logic, yes. There are innocents on both sides. Not all templars are fascist monsters. Not all mages are howling abominations in the making. And there are guilty people on both sides too, and they are the ones Hawke seems to run into all the time.But the game's story structure forced me to choose the lesser evil, which I picked from what I knew at the time. It was an unemotional, somewhat frustrated decision after circling around the dialogue three times and not finding the "I don't care, get out of my way" option. I would have greatly preferred to not kill anyone, because no side was blameless in this. The line of thought above would not even exist if the game hadn't forced me.And had Anders not blown up the Chantry, I would have likely taken the mages' side. I let him go, because I'm no one's executioner but my own.EDITED to reflect your edit. The difference is that, according to your quote, killing is a means to get a chance to advance a cause. To me, the killing was forced on me by the game and I tried to choose the outcome with the least amount of dead. Just like to Anders. He also doesn't saw other chance to earn his goal. These mages, who remained in the Circle, were innocent victims too. I know well, not every Templar is "evil" (even Anders doesn't think that – remember: he not even considered Meredith as "evil", he considered Alric as evil, who was really twisted bastard, just as Karras – but these where Meredith's senior officers), in fact quite few Templar is really "evil", and most of them are victims of the system, just as the Mages. The system is evil. The Templars in this game don't protect innocents, rather threat innocents and hampered the normal operation of the city. Siding with Meredith (not the Templars!) seems only confirms a system, what so far has strangles the whole city. However, you're right, I spoke about: this is a hopeless battle, the Templars are in are outnumbered, and the Mages are lack of battle experiences. So: supporting the Templars in first sight would seem a good choice in the viewpoint of the city (Varric's opinion), but again: IF Meredith wouldn't exist. True, Hawke doesn't see the red-lyrium influence, but Meredith seems not only a simply tyrannic leader but even unpredictable, manipulative and criminal. So: the city's lost in every viewpoint. Meredith's peace isn't peace, she is very dangerous, and unstable even without the red-lyrium knowledge. Her reaction to Anders' act was illogical, cruel and even lunatic. And at the moment, Hawke doesn't know, that Meredith's replaceable ever. In addition: again: this is a hopeless, in fact, an unwinnable battle from the viewpoint of the mages and Hawke. The Templars have endless looking replenishment (this is why Orsino lost his faith and gone mad), so, the Mages have only one chance to survive even if they beat Kirkwall Templars: to run away from the city. So: Kirkwall's free from the Mages, the city's order can be restored. So: this battle causes similar end than the Templar end, only Hawke's hand remained clear from the massacre of innocents.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 30, 2017 11:10:57 GMT
For me, this game was about what powerless is Hawke, and how hopeless is a man, who only wants peace, no matter, what cost. This man will fall, as every little man, who doesn't choose a side between of the "safe" oppression and the "risky" freedom. When I tried to play as a "responsible" man, I felt uncomfortable, my character failed at his cause: to keep the city safe and peace, and to force to step back the cancer of the city: Meredith. I felt desperate anger when every try for the peaceful AND humane solution's failed on Meredith and Elthina. At the end, this Hawke chose his idiot Templar brother and killed his friend for the city, despite his conviction. The Viscount title was 30 pieces of silver coin. Dirty. (Fortunately, as I heard, the Templars finally did not trust Viscount!Hawke and s/he forced to leave Kirkwall. I don't know, this is canon but gave me a little satisfaction.) And I know: this Hawke is Inquisition's burned out, disappointed bastard.
So, I came back to my style. My Hawkes (except the above one) chose exile and rescued all their friends and the remained family, and live happily ever after... until Varric's call. And at least they did something against the corrupted system. An interesting way to roleplay your Hawke! My Hawke's motivations were different for each chapter. Initially, all he wanted was to provide peace and prosperity for his family, and I was very happy at the end of chapter 1. Then the story lost me, because it had previously forced me to do Sister Petrice's quest, which I didn't care for, and then based the continuation of the storyline of something I didn't care for (Qunari), so chapter 2 saw my Hawke as a mercenary who made coin from people who just couldn't leave him alone with their problems. In chapter 3, he was fed up as hell with all the craziness and determined to wipe it off the face of his city. And go home. And have a drink. And not show up for work for a few months. Thank you! I prefer to play as revolutionary, not "responsible" man because in such a way the story gains meaning to me. Flemeth's profecy, for example: "watch for the moment, and when it comes, don't hesitate to leap!""Responsible"!Hawke's hopeless, was sentenced to losing, his Viscount title is a burden (and the Templars betray him, no matter how loyal supporter or just opportunist) revolutionary!Hawke is hopeful even in his exile. Anders-romanced, supportive Hawke's line in Inquisition is the best romance line ever; they are active participants in the revolution continuously, not only passive victims of events. This not meant, that revolutioner!Hawke doesn't care about innocent people, only he cares about another innocent people, who already suffered enough. About these people, nobody cares. These people are always counting expendable, for the peace, for the safety etc. But I know, I'm in minority with this viewpoint.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 30, 2017 12:02:21 GMT
why would Justice transform Anders into a charismatic leader if Anders goals were truly noble. Is not freedom for mages a noble goal. This is what Anders wanted and peace for himself.
But never got the feeling Anders wanted to be a leader, he never rallied the Kirkwall mages to rebel under his leadership, just lit the spark that started it. The mages in the rest of the circles took that cue and freed themselves. I'm sure some of the mages wanted to remain in the circle but most took that opportunity. After he killed the Grand Cleric and others he seemed resigned and ready to die as if his work was done. I'm no big lore expert, mind you, but it is my impression that spirits are constant and unchanging in their "personality" and aspect. For them to change in any way requires a strong outside influence. Spirit healers are people merged with a spirit of compassion, Seekers are merged with a spirit of faith. These spirits don't turn into something else on a whim, they enhance that aspect of the person. Anders merged with a spirit of Justice, but his mind was violent enough to corrupt that spirit into Vengeance. While Freedom for mages is certainly a noble goal, Anders' anger and violence corrupted that noble goal and the spirit along with it. I agree that Anders didn't want to be a leader though. But if he had wanted to be a leader (or just a soldier) for a good cause from the bottom of his heart, then merging with a spirit of Justice should have aided him in that and not corrupted said spirit. As I see, the spirits are very weak for the change/twist in the out-of-Fade world. Justice is a very hard purpose/personality in this viewpoint: the borders between the justice and vengeance inherently faded. You can't really decide clearly, that an execution serves the justice, or serves only the vengeance, because of probably both.So: Justice out of the Fade, basically in trouble. In the Fade he's a pure noble guiding principle. In the out-of-Fade world, he's a mixture of difficult decisions. He's Justice AND Vengeance in one. At first, he even didn't saw, what means the mercy in the formula (Nathaniel–Justice's banter). So: he can't avoid the damage. To keep his original personality is almost impossible, everything depends on he's able to learn, or not (we know, the spirits are able to learn), and later depend on how Anders handle the problems, no matter, what noble is his goal, his choice always hard, and every anger-rush causes desire of revenge. But we saw: Anders/Justice only shows instant anger, never killed the Templars in Kirkwall without reasons. Anders searches for irrefutable evidence against Otto Alric for months before he attacked him. He afraid of his anger, but neither before nor after Ella's case he doesn't show violent-behavior against anyone, not even a Templar. He seems to try to be very careful with his anger. Exploding the Chantry isn't revenge, it's a very hard choice. If would be revenge, Aanders would be satisfied, but he only shows sincere sadness.
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Post by mikaelnovasun on Aug 30, 2017 13:00:47 GMT
I don't see how you can justify murder for any reason. It baffles and worries me that people seem to be able to. Anders may have wanted to start a war, but his madness drove him to choose the premeditated murder of civilians. Anders' plan was to eliminate the one person in an act so horrifying Meredith would have no resistance to declaring Annulment and wiping out the circle to start a larger war between the Mages and the Chantry/Templars. That is truly twisted thinking; commit mass murder to trigger the murder of others to trigger a larger conflict that hopefully results in mage freedom. Sounds insane, yes? Which makes sense given that both Anders and Justice were less rational as time progressed and became Vengeance.
Also I wouldn't hold up Orsino as some mage who simply went mad because he was pushed to far. He was already dabbling with blood mages and possibly using it himself. Meredith is correct when she accuses him of hiding blood magic. After all he helped the crazy blood mage who murdered Hawke's mother. I wish Hawke could conclude Orsino was involved instead of allowing the player to put it together while not being able to act on it. I could easily see how Hawke even as a mage would side with the Templars. Even if you side with the Templars you can save "innocent" mages and eliminate the blood mages.
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Post by Gileadan on Aug 30, 2017 13:28:44 GMT
Catilina and @dustyelf I've read your posts, but I'm not quoting them now because I have a mild quote pyramid allergy. I think that Justice is a principle that is very open to corruption and therefore, merging with a spirit of Justice is a very dangerous thing. The line between justice and vengeance can get blurry very easily. Healing, on the other hand, is a clear and benevolent principle. Healing eases pain and saves lives and can be considered inherently good, and it would take some real effort to corrupt this principle (like healing people who are being tortured so they can be exposed to more torture without dying, for example). Justice is quite another thing. Consider a single death sentence: did we sentence the criminal to death because we honestly believed that it was the fitting punishment for their deeds? That letting them live, even imprisoned, would pose too big a risk? (Someone like Erimond from DAI may qualify in this case, but Anders does not, so I let him go). Or do we choose the death sentence because we feel the criminal should suffer? That they deserve the fear and pain (however short) they will experience during their execution? Then we are getting close to vengeance territory, and it might be enough to slowly change a spirit of justice into one of vengeance. Even vengeance still retains some small aspect of justice, but one that is warped by personal anger and hatred, even when the cause is noble.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 30, 2017 14:03:30 GMT
I don't see how you can justify murder for any reason. It baffles and worries me that people seem to be able to. Anders may have wanted to start a war, but his madness drove him to choose the premeditated murder of civilians. Anders' plan was to eliminate the one person in an act so horrifying Meredith would have no resistance to declaring Annulment and wiping out the circle to start a larger war between the Mages and the Chantry/Templars. That is truly twisted thinking; commit mass murder to trigger the murder of others to trigger a larger conflict that hopefully results in mage freedom. Sounds insane, yes? Which makes sense given that both Anders and Justice were less rational as time progressed and became Vengeance. Also I wouldn't hold up Orsino as some mage who simply went mad because he was pushed to far. He was already dabbling with blood mages and possibly using it himself. Meredith is correct when she accuses him of hiding blood magic. After all he helped the crazy blood mage who murdered Hawke's mother. I wish Hawke could conclude Orsino was involved instead of allowing the player to put it together while not being able to act on it. I could easily see how Hawke even as a mage would side with the Templars. Even if you side with the Templars you can save "innocent" mages and eliminate the blood mages. Anders didn't attacked "civilians" Anders attacked the headquarter of the oppressors. Okay, just the local headquarter, but Val Royeaux was too far. Not the Templars are the real oppressors, they never were. Much more difficult to justify what Elthina did (not) do, and what the Chantry did for centuries against the Mages. What's problem with blood magic? It's just a tool. Orsino didn't use blood magic before, he knew the technic. Why he would lie before his suicidal act? He probably just demonstrated, that he would be able to break out anytime, but he didn't do that. And he no longer wanted to obey. Helped to Quentin? Yes, he knew that he's an apostate, and he's there where in Kirkwall. He also knew, that Quentin studies forbidden knowledge. But he doesn't knew, that Quentin's a serial killer. Why would he betray his friend? A captive doesn't belong any loyalty to to the captors, in fact, if they have any duty, then this is to try to escape and to undermine the system. They didn't do it, because I think almost every mage has some degree of Stockholm Syndrom. But this isn't healthy, ofc. So: Orsino's passive resistance was more than understandable. His problem was rather, that he tried to keep the balance between Meredith's insanity and the Circle Mages' interest, for the "peace" of the Circle. This impossible task ruined his nerves.
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Post by Sah291 on Aug 30, 2017 14:54:06 GMT
I don't see how you can justify murder for any reason. It baffles and worries me that people seem to be able to. Anders may have wanted to start a war, but his madness drove him to choose the premeditated murder of civilians. Anders' plan was to eliminate the one person in an act so horrifying Meredith would have no resistance to declaring Annulment and wiping out the circle to start a larger war between the Mages and the Chantry/Templars. That is truly twisted thinking; commit mass murder to trigger the murder of others to trigger a larger conflict that hopefully results in mage freedom. Sounds insane, yes? Which makes sense given that both Anders and Justice were less rational as time progressed and became Vengeance. Also I wouldn't hold up Orsino as some mage who simply went mad because he was pushed to far. He was already dabbling with blood mages and possibly using it himself. Meredith is correct when she accuses him of hiding blood magic. After all he helped the crazy blood mage who murdered Hawke's mother. I wish Hawke could conclude Orsino was involved instead of allowing the player to put it together while not being able to act on it. I could easily see how Hawke even as a mage would side with the Templars. Even if you side with the Templars you can save "innocent" mages and eliminate the blood mages. That is the question the game asks, is it ever justified to engage in war or violence, even in self defense, in order to throw off oppressors/attackers? You can argue it is never justified, but it's a fact of history this kind of thing happens. I'm anti war in real life, so this question was obviously very challenging to me personally, and not something I would take lightly. But I think the game shows how stripping away rights and the ability to engage in peaceful change or access a fair justice system that is not corrupt, almost always leads to violence of some kind, eventually. It's a cautionary tale. But in all the debates I've seen and particpated in over this game, I've noticed that this question seems to always come down to what side people sympathized with more, who they saw was the aggressor, whether they saw the Chantry as innocent, and whether it really was a civilian or military target...that one is a gray area at best, considering they had their own army and held ultimate authority in Kirkwall. As for Elthina, I think she is an example of some of the darker aspects of "faith" turning to sloth and apathy.
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