inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,241
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Aug 31, 2017 16:14:29 GMT
Yeah I didn't like that the inquisition had to choose sides. They were suppose to bring order back. At no time did my inquisitor send runners to either side to try to bring them together. Or have a scene where he tried to talk to each side or their leaders. I don't know though maybe I missed that ina codex or war table mission, that's possible. Choosing a side can only put one side in power over the other and the circle can repeat instead of getting better. I feel for the Templars jjust as much as they were trapped in their roles as well but the wrongness of the imprisonment of mages outweighs that. I agree. I don't know what would be next for the Templars once the Circle system ends. Cullen is helping out with their addiction, so maybe some new group forms. Cass is reforming the Seekers in my canon world state. If the Inquisition was a just organization and the new Divine isn't bloodthirsty (hardened Leliana?), maybe the cycle doesn't repeat this time. But it's Dragon Age, so I'm sure peace won't last long until the next world ending crisis... The real Knights Templar had it pretty rough when they lost power, they were arrested, accused of demon worship, burned at the stake, etc. "There can be no peace"
|
|
inherit
Scribbles
185
0
30,192
Hanako Ikezawa
Fan from 2003 - 2020
22,332
August 2016
hanakoikezawa
|
Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 31, 2017 17:17:16 GMT
Yeah I didn't like that the inquisition had to choose sides. They were suppose to bring order back. At no time did my inquisitor send runners to either side to try to bring them together. Or have a scene where he tried to talk to each side or their leaders. I don't know though maybe I missed that ina codex or war table mission, that's possible. Choosing a side can only put one side in power over the other and the circle can repeat instead of getting better. I feel for the Templars jjust as much as they were trapped in their roles as well but the wrongness of the imprisonment of mages outweighs that. I agree. I don't know what would be next for the Templars once the Circle system ends. Cullen is helping out with their addiction, so maybe some new group forms. Cass is reforming the Seekers in my canon world state. If the Inquisition was a just organization and the new Divine isn't bloodthirsty (hardened Leliana?), maybe the cycle doesn't repeat this time. But it's Dragon Age, so I'm sure peace won't last long until the next world ending crisis... The real Knights Templar had it pretty rough when they lost power, they were arrested, accused of demon worship, burned at the stake, etc. There will always be need for Templars in Thedas. There are still magical threats out there such as dangerous apostates and demons, and Templars are the best suited to defend people against those threats.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,241
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Aug 31, 2017 17:27:50 GMT
I agree. I don't know what would be next for the Templars once the Circle system ends. Cullen is helping out with their addiction, so maybe some new group forms. Cass is reforming the Seekers in my canon world state. If the Inquisition was a just organization and the new Divine isn't bloodthirsty (hardened Leliana?), maybe the cycle doesn't repeat this time. But it's Dragon Age, so I'm sure peace won't last long until the next world ending crisis... The real Knights Templar had it pretty rough when they lost power, they were arrested, accused of demon worship, burned at the stake, etc. There will always be need for Templars in Thedas. There are still magical threats out there such as dangerous apostates and demons, and Templars are the best suited to defend people against those threats. You mean: rogue mages? Seekers + Templars + MAGES can be effective against these threats. (Mages also have effective anti-magic spells, in fact they are more effective than the Templar spell, because doesn't need lyrium-addiction to amplify.)
|
|
inherit
Scribbles
185
0
30,192
Hanako Ikezawa
Fan from 2003 - 2020
22,332
August 2016
hanakoikezawa
|
Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 31, 2017 17:35:25 GMT
There will always be need for Templars in Thedas. There are still magical threats out there such as dangerous apostates and demons, and Templars are the best suited to defend people against those threats. You mean: rogue mages? Seekers + Templars + MAGES can be effective against these threats. (Mages also have effective anti-magic spells, in fact they are more effective than the Templar spell, because doesn't need lyrium-addiction to amplify.) Yes, I mean the rogue mages that do all the terrible things that people fear of mages like killing people. Maleficarum. Perhaps, though mages are not well-suited for facing threats like demons. A joint task force between the groups would be interesting.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,241
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Aug 31, 2017 17:41:04 GMT
You mean: rogue mages? Seekers + Templars + MAGES can be effective against these threats. (Mages also have effective anti-magic spells, in fact they are more effective than the Templar spell, because doesn't need lyrium-addiction to amplify.) Yes, I mean the rogue mages that do all the terrible things that people fear of mages like killing people. Maleficarum. Perhaps, though mages are not well-suited for facing threats like demons. A joint task force between the groups would be interesting. The Mages are just as effective than the Templars if not better (they feel the magic, for example), the only problem with them, that the demons attracted to them more than the Templars.
|
|
inherit
1685
0
1,633
riverdaleswhiteflash
1,501
Sept 28, 2016 8:03:42 GMT
September 2016
riverdaleswhiteflash
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
|
Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Aug 31, 2017 17:59:57 GMT
Yes, I mean the rogue mages that do all the terrible things that people fear of mages like killing people. Maleficarum. Perhaps, though mages are not well-suited for facing threats like demons. A joint task force between the groups would be interesting. The Mages are just as effective than the Templars if not better (they feel the magic, for example), the only problem with them, that the demons attracted to them more than the Templars. Well, Ser Otto says that he can feel magic too. That's part of the reason he stays in the Alienage: he can tell something's wrong. And there's a Templar-specific dialogue option to say you feel it too, which he correctly guesses is evidence that you have the same power he does. Besides which, while there is an advantage to having at least one mage around while hunting demons (they can reassemble body parts that a demon damages, for example) demons being more attracted to them is a disadvantage worth noting. And if worst comes to worst and one of the hunters gets possessed or mind controlled, that hunter is less of a problem if all he grants the demon is anti-magic and a good sword arm. (That's bad enough, but it's nothing next to what a mage would grant said demon.)
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,241
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Aug 31, 2017 18:34:00 GMT
The Mages are just as effective than the Templars if not better (they feel the magic, for example), the only problem with them, that the demons attracted to them more than the Templars. Well, Ser Otto says that he can feel magic too. That's part of the reason he stays in the Alienage: he can tell something's wrong. And there's a Templar-specific dialogue option to say you feel it too, which he correctly guesses is evidence that you have the same power he does. Besides which, while there is an advantage to having at least one mage around while hunting demons (they can reassemble body parts that a demon damages, for example) demons being more attracted to them is a disadvantage worth noting. And if worst comes to worst and one of the hunters gets possessed or mind controlled, that hunter is less of a problem if all he grants the demon is anti-magic and a good sword arm. (That's bad enough, but it's nothing next to what a mage would grant said demon.) So: iIf you add the Mages' and Themplars' benefits and disadvantages, you see that cooperation has more advantages than disadvantages.
|
|
inherit
1685
0
1,633
riverdaleswhiteflash
1,501
Sept 28, 2016 8:03:42 GMT
September 2016
riverdaleswhiteflash
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
|
Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Aug 31, 2017 18:34:51 GMT
Well, Ser Otto says that he can feel magic too. That's part of the reason he stays in the Alienage: he can tell something's wrong. And there's a Templar-specific dialogue option to say you feel it too, which he correctly guesses is evidence that you have the same power he does. Besides which, while there is an advantage to having at least one mage around while hunting demons (they can reassemble body parts that a demon damages, for example) demons being more attracted to them is a disadvantage worth noting. And if worst comes to worst and one of the hunters gets possessed or mind controlled, that hunter is less of a problem if all he grants the demon is anti-magic and a good sword arm. (That's bad enough, but it's nothing next to what a mage would grant said demon.) So: iIf you add the Mages' and Themplars' benefits and disadvantages, you see that cooperation has more advantages than disadvantages. So we all think it's a good idea to use both, then?
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,241
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Aug 31, 2017 18:39:32 GMT
So: iIf you add the Mages' and Themplars' benefits and disadvantages, you see that cooperation has more advantages than disadvantages. So we all think it's a good idea to use both, then? Why not? This would be very effective. From every viewpoint: security, trust, strength.
|
|
Sah291
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
Prime Posts: 1,240
Prime Likes: 1340
Posts: 862 Likes: 1,935
inherit
306
0
1,935
Sah291
862
August 2016
sah291
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
1,240
1340
|
Post by Sah291 on Aug 31, 2017 18:55:02 GMT
I agree. I don't know what would be next for the Templars once the Circle system ends. Cullen is helping out with their addiction, so maybe some new group forms. Cass is reforming the Seekers in my canon world state. If the Inquisition was a just organization and the new Divine isn't bloodthirsty (hardened Leliana?), maybe the cycle doesn't repeat this time. But it's Dragon Age, so I'm sure peace won't last long until the next world ending crisis... The real Knights Templar had it pretty rough when they lost power, they were arrested, accused of demon worship, burned at the stake, etc. There will always be need for Templars in Thedas. There are still magical threats out there such as dangerous apostates and demons, and Templars are the best suited to defend people against those threats. In my opinion, either Templars, or just people with Templar like skills, including mages. But the Circle system treated everyone as a criminal/potential criminal. Edit: I agree, why not use both to fight magical threats... mages and Templars could have a lot of overlapping ability, but probably just depends what kind of threat they are fighting. Templars are warriors. But mages usually specialize in various different schools of magic. I'm sure if a party of mages and Templars got together they could figure it out...who is weak against what, and who to put on the front line.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,241
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Aug 31, 2017 22:03:54 GMT
The goal still good. I can be bad. "If the cause of the fighting is a good one, the issue of the fight will not be evil." - St. Bernard of Clairvaux, One of the co-founders of the Knights Templar An interesting quote, but one that is kind of tricky in terms of morality, as what defines a good cause? To achieve the freedom is a good cause. Slavery is evil. Keeping people as property is evil. No doubt.
|
|
inherit
3532
0
Jan 22, 2022 10:09:38 GMT
2,504
ComedicSociopathy
1,037
Feb 12, 2017 21:39:59 GMT
February 2017
delightdul
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
|
Post by ComedicSociopathy on Aug 31, 2017 22:22:03 GMT
Yeah, Anders is a crazy idiot in my opinion.
His plan was utterly insane and self-destructive. Seriously, his plan was to manipulate Meredith into annuling Kirkwall's Circle in the hope that their unjust deaths would motivate other Circles to rebel. That basically means he was fine with intentionally sacrificing his fellow mages and forcing them into a conflict they didn't want or prepare for, for the sake of his revolution. That plan is beyond stupid and hypocritical, and almost reaches Reaper levels of insanity. I will save my fellow mages by getting them killed by the very group I claim to hate, because that definately makes sense. I get he was trying to make the Kirkwall mages "see" how evil Meredith is and force them defend themselves but instead of doing the sane thing and actually preparing them for that fight or getting allies strong enough to resist the templars, he acts alone and screws Orsino and the other mages over with his hair-brained stupidity. Sera could have come up with a better plan for God's sake.
Look, I support mage freedom and think mages can resist their oppression with violence in some situations, but Anders methods just fucked the mages cause and made everyone fear them again. Good thing my Inquisitor was around to fix his clusterfuck.
|
|
inherit
3532
0
Jan 22, 2022 10:09:38 GMT
2,504
ComedicSociopathy
1,037
Feb 12, 2017 21:39:59 GMT
February 2017
delightdul
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
|
Post by ComedicSociopathy on Aug 31, 2017 22:26:06 GMT
"If the cause of the fighting is a good one, the issue of the fight will not be evil." - St. Bernard of Clairvaux, One of the co-founders of the Knights Templar An interesting quote, but one that is kind of tricky in terms of morality, as what defines a good cause? To achieve the freedom is a good cause. Slavery is evil. Keeping people as property is evil. No doubt. Agreed. But if your going to fight aganist slavery you'd better have a good plan to fix it instead of just blowing stuff up and hoping that things work out.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,241
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Aug 31, 2017 22:33:46 GMT
To achieve the freedom is a good cause. Slavery is evil. Keeping people as property is evil. No doubt. Agreed. But if your going to fight aganist slavery you'd better have a good plan to fix it instead of just blowing stuff up and hoping that things work out. A peaceful demonstration, I suppose. Or a Facebook-campaign. Both can work. And a referendum.
|
|
inherit
3532
0
Jan 22, 2022 10:09:38 GMT
2,504
ComedicSociopathy
1,037
Feb 12, 2017 21:39:59 GMT
February 2017
delightdul
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
|
Post by ComedicSociopathy on Aug 31, 2017 22:44:06 GMT
Agreed. But if your going to fight aganist slavery you'd better have a good plan to fix it instead of just blowing stuff up and hoping that things work out. A peaceful demonstration, I suppose. Or a Facebook-campaign. Both can work. And a referendum. Given Anders situation on the other hand none of those options would have worked unfortunately. Honestly, I wish he had just secretly murdered Meredith instead of blowing up the Chantry. It probably wouldn't have radical changed things but it would have at least removed her crazy ass from the situation, which is at least a mild improvement. Also, actually getting the Kirkwall mages prepared and trained for an organized revolt aganist templar martial law would have been a great idea as well, so as long as it also involved getting other groups like the city elves, the peasantry, and the nobility on its side as well.
|
|
inherit
3532
0
Jan 22, 2022 10:09:38 GMT
2,504
ComedicSociopathy
1,037
Feb 12, 2017 21:39:59 GMT
February 2017
delightdul
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
|
Post by ComedicSociopathy on Aug 31, 2017 22:59:41 GMT
Agreed. But if your going to fight aganist slavery you'd better have a good plan to fix it instead of just blowing stuff up and hoping that things work out. The Chantry had turned a blind eye to the abuses in the circle- all the circles. They made it far worse than it needed to be. Many mages want to be free, so many were escaping as we saw in DA2, actually risking the possibility to be sold into slavery by that ship captain. It shows how completely desperate they were. It is horrible that the Chantry had to be blown and people were murdered but it is what got the mages to leave the circles. If the Chantry tries to force the mages back into the circle, it might not work, mages have hope now and once they have lived free even in war they will not go quietly back into the prison circles. Now the land need leaders that can bring the groups together. But the Chantry didn't have to be destroyed to do any of that. Anders could have done something else but decided to roll the dice and hope Meredith doesn't successfully manage to purge all the mages and make up some lie to justify her actions later. This plan just has way to many chaotic variables that could have made things worse. Furthermore, because his plan didn't involve convincing mages outside of the Kirkwall to rebel, almost half the Circle mages in Thedas opened up voting aganist leaving the Chantry, weakening the revolution as a whole. I hate the Chantry's entrapment of mages but I'm sure not going to lionize Anders actions because things somewhat end up going well for mages in the end. To me the real reason why the mages are possibly free by the end of Trespasser is because of the actions Book!Fiona (the Fiona in Inquisition is another idiot that is basically another character compared to the Fiona in Asunder), Rhys, Leliana and a pro-Mage Inquisitor. Anders deserves no credit and apparently if Varric is correct than the mages see that as well.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,241
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Aug 31, 2017 23:09:35 GMT
A peaceful demonstration, I suppose. Or a Facebook-campaign. Both can work. And a referendum. Given Anders situation on the other hand none of those options would have worked unfortunately. Honestly, I wish he had just secretly murdered Meredith instead of blowing up the Chantry. It probably wouldn't have radical changed things but it would have at least removed her crazy ass from the situation, which is at least a mild improvement. Also, actually getting the Kirkwall mages prepared and trained for an organized revolt aganist templar martial law would have been a great idea as well, so as long as it also involved getting other groups like the city elves, the peasantry, and the nobility on its side as well. Assassinating Meredith wouldn't serve the freedom of the Mages, not even an improvement. Think about it: Cullen would be appointed by Elthina, I suppose (or Karras – even worse). Now Cullen seems a nice man, but ONLY because he saw Meredith's madness. Without Meredith's madness, he absolutely supported her. He was suspicious about Meredith's "strange" behavior, but still not questioned her. Imagine if he found that anyone murdered her... That fact only would strengthen his conviction, that it must be treated with the Mages with hard hands. The noble rebellion already started organizing against Meredith, but I suppose, it would be drowned in blood in a minute by the Templars. I don't think, that this part of the Kirkwall nobles would enough to beat the Templars, or even just push back Meredith. AND: Kirkwall probably would be counted as a guilty city, because they rebelled against the Chantry.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,241
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Aug 31, 2017 23:19:00 GMT
But the Chantry didn't have to be destroyed to do any of that. Anders could have done something else but decided to roll the dice and hope Meredith doesn't successfully manage to purge all the mages and make up some lie to justify her actions later. This plan just has way to many chaotic variables that could have made things worse.
Furthermore, because his plan didn't involve convincing mages outside of the Kirkwall to rebel, almost half the Circle mages in Thedas opened up voting aganist leaving the Chantry, weakening the revolution as a whole.
I hate the Chantry's entrapment of mages but I'm sure not going to lionize Anders actions because things somewhat end up going well for mages in the end. To me the real reason why the mages are possibly free by the end of Trespasser is because of the actions Book!Fiona (the Fiona in Inquisition is another idiot that is basically another character compared to the Fiona in Asunder), Rhys, Leliana and a pro-Mage Inquisitor. Anders deserves no credit and apparently if Varric is correct than the mages see that as well. What actions do you think Anders should have taken instead? He didn't need to convince the other mages, the other mages heard about what he did. In a way it gave them hope for freedom. Something no amount of talking did. The circle mages that voted though were the leaders. They have no reason to leave. Like Wynne she had it better than most, ability to leave for example that the other mages did not. I keep thinking about DAO and playing mage warden the first time. I was exploring the tower and walked up to the Templars by the door they would not let me out. Why? I was a mage and it wasn't allowed. I want out, let me out. No. When the Jowan quest opened up my first thought was yes! there is a way out. Sadly there wasn't. Just thinking about that and being forced to be inside your entire life is horrible, it is not life. Can't image that people are really accepting of that. Just a note: I don't think Anders is a saint. He did murder the Grand Cleric and dozens of people. If we were to judge Anders for his crimes in DAI my inquisitor would have him executed for the murders, no question. I just don't think there was any other way. It had to be done that way. Anders was right. And he would accept the decision. And this is the main reason, why I think, he deserves the life. And because he was right.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,241
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Aug 31, 2017 23:32:33 GMT
The Chantry had turned a blind eye to the abuses in the circle- all the circles. They made it far worse than it needed to be. Many mages want to be free, so many were escaping as we saw in DA2, actually risking the possibility to be sold into slavery by that ship captain. It shows how completely desperate they were. It is horrible that the Chantry had to be blown and people were murdered but it is what got the mages to leave the circles. If the Chantry tries to force the mages back into the circle, it might not work, mages have hope now and once they have lived free even in war they will not go quietly back into the prison circles. Now the land need leaders that can bring the groups together. But the Chantry didn't have to be destroyed to do any of that. Anders could have done something else but decided to roll the dice and hope Meredith doesn't successfully manage to purge all the mages and make up some lie to justify her actions later. This plan just has way to many chaotic variables that could have made things worse. Furthermore, because his plan didn't involve convincing mages outside of the Kirkwall to rebel, almost half the Circle mages in Thedas opened up voting aganist leaving the Chantry, weakening the revolution as a whole. I hate the Chantry's entrapment of mages but I'm sure not going to lionize Anders actions because things somewhat end up going well for mages in the end. To me the real reason why the mages are possibly free by the end of Trespasser is because of the actions Book!Fiona (the Fiona in Inquisition is another idiot that is basically another character compared to the Fiona in Asunder), Rhys, Leliana and a pro-Mage Inquisito r. Anders deserves no credit and apparently if Varric is correct than the mages see that as well. Anders romanced, supportive Hawke told different things. They helped mages to rebel. Perhaps for the success needed the mighty Champion of Kirkwall? I like this thought, that together they are stronger. Kirkwall, Anders was important for the rebellion.
|
|
inherit
Scribbles
185
0
30,192
Hanako Ikezawa
Fan from 2003 - 2020
22,332
August 2016
hanakoikezawa
|
Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 31, 2017 23:45:02 GMT
He didn't need to convince the other mages, the other mages heard about what he did. In a way it gave them hope for freedom. Something no amount of talking did. The circle mages that voted though were the leaders. They have no reason to leave. Like Wynne she had it better than most, ability to leave for example that the other mages did not. Couple things regarding this part of your post. 1. I disagree that Anders gave the mages hope. He gave them no choice and they were terrified so that's why they rebelled since "Hey, if the alternative is death anyway may as well try for freedom". They wrote Anders off as a madman. The only person who gave them hope was Hawke if they sided with the mages. 2. The mages who voted are representatives of other mages. They voted for what their people wanted, hence why quite a few who "had no reason to leave" voted to leave.
|
|
inherit
3532
0
Jan 22, 2022 10:09:38 GMT
2,504
ComedicSociopathy
1,037
Feb 12, 2017 21:39:59 GMT
February 2017
delightdul
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
|
Post by ComedicSociopathy on Aug 31, 2017 23:58:03 GMT
onvince But the Chantry didn't have to be destroyed to do any of that. Anders could have done something else but decided to roll the dice and hope Meredith doesn't successfully manage to purge all the mages and make up some lie to justify her actions later. This plan just has way to many chaotic variables that could have made things worse. Furthermore, because his plan didn't involve convincing mages outside of the Kirkwall to rebel, almost half the Circle mages in Thedas opened up voting aganist leaving the Chantry, weakening the revolution as a whole. I hate the Chantry's entrapment of mages but I'm sure not going to lionize Anders actions because things somewhat end up going well for mages in the end. To me the real reason why the mages are possibly free by the end of Trespasser is because of the actions Book!Fiona (the Fiona in Inquisition is another idiot that is basically another character compared to the Fiona in Asunder), Rhys, Leliana and a pro-Mage Inquisitor. Anders deserves no credit and apparently if Varric is correct than the mages see that as well. What actions do you think Anders should have taken instead? He didn't need to convince the other mages, the other mages heard about what he did. In a way it gave them hope for freedom. Something no amount of talking did. The circle mages that voted though were the leaders. They have no reason to leave. Like Wynne she had it better than most, ability to leave for example that the other mages did not.I keep thinking about DAO and playing mage warden the first time. I was exploring the tower and walked up to the Templars by the door they would not let me out. Why? I was a mage and it wasn't allowed. I want out, let me out. No. When the Jowan quest opened up my first thought was yes! there is a way out. Sadly there wasn't. Just thinking about that and being forced to be inside your entire life is horrible, it is not life. Can't image that people are really accepting of that. Just a note: I don't think Anders is a saint. He did murder the Grand Cleric and dozens of people. If we were to judge Anders for his crimes in DAI my inquisitor would have him executed for the murders, no question. I just don't think there was any other way. It had to be done that way. Anders was right. That is not true. Connor voted aganist the dissolution and I doubt he's a senior enchanter. Perhaps am wrong or maybe Inquisition pulled a retcon of some kind. Anyways, upthread I state a couple others things he could have done. Assassinate Meredith, actually convince Orisino and the other mages to rebel instead of "inspiring" them through terrorism, try to find allies aganist Meredith's martial law and work with them to remove Meredith from power. Basically anything that doesn't involve manipulating a situation that would get the very people your trying to protect killed because you didn't inform them beforehand that your "revolution" was happening. The idea that was the ONLY option and that there weren't any alternatives seems disingenuous like tunnel vision to me but to each their own. I definately don't Anders is a saint either if that isn't obvious enough. Besides the terrorism he's also a hypocritic (yelling at Merrill for using blood magic even though he's abomination that almost killed an innocent girl, approving of Fenris being sold into slavery) but even with those huge flaws I still kind of feel sorry for him. He's not a tragic hero in my mind but he was a guy that at first was doing the right and smart thing by helping Ferelden refugees with his healing magic and teaching them that not all mages are evil and dangerous like the Chantry says. Which is why it's such a shame that he loses his mind (probably mostly Justice's fault) and does what he does at the end of Dragon Age 2. As someone who had a friendship relationship with Anders during my first playthrough, it felt like my Hawke was unknowningly enabling a friend with a severe mental illness which eventually lead him towards committing mass murder.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,241
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Sept 1, 2017 0:05:04 GMT
He didn't need to convince the other mages, the other mages heard about what he did. In a way it gave them hope for freedom. Something no amount of talking did. The circle mages that voted though were the leaders. They have no reason to leave. Like Wynne she had it better than most, ability to leave for example that the other mages did not. Couple things regarding this part of your post. 1. I disagree that Anders gave the mages hope. He gave them no choice and they were terrified so that's why they rebelled since "Hey, if the alternative is death anyway may as well try for freedom". They wrote Anders off as a madman. The only person who gave them hope was Hawke if they sided with the mages. 2. The mages who voted are representatives of other mages. They voted for what their people wanted, hence why quite a few who "had no reason to leave" voted to leave. Never forget, some mages felt similar emotions toward the Circles, as the slaves toward their master. Without the accident, Fenris wouldn't escape. He killed the Fog Warriors for his master. I can go further: perhaps, would able Fenris defend Danarius in a slave rebellion? Orana felt sorry for Hadriana. The Mages needed that spark. They needed to force to fight for their own life. Without it, they just would sit on their ass and wait for the death sentence, as a cattle in the slaughterhouse. Just remember Bethany! She hated the Circle, but she would never rebel because she doesn't want to cause trouble. But at the end battle, she was enthusiastic.
|
|
inherit
Scribbles
185
0
30,192
Hanako Ikezawa
Fan from 2003 - 2020
22,332
August 2016
hanakoikezawa
|
Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 1, 2017 0:06:30 GMT
Couple things regarding this part of your post. 1. I disagree that Anders gave the mages hope. He gave them no choice and they were terrified so that's why they rebelled since "Hey, if the alternative is death anyway may as well try for freedom". They wrote Anders off as a madman. The only person who gave them hope was Hawke if they sided with the mages. 2. The mages who voted are representatives of other mages. They voted for what their people wanted, hence why quite a few who "had no reason to leave" voted to leave. Don't see where it is shown the mages were so terrified which is why they rebelled. I Anders hadn't blown up the chantry they wouldn't all have taken the chance to leave. Representatives don't always know what the people want or vote how they want. There are so many mages that were trying to escape the circles that there was an underground system to help them escape. All over the place. DA2, Asunder, DAI all have instances showing all of that. Plus they didn't even leave because of Anders' actions, instead it was a different thing that finally led to them leaving a few years after Anders did his thing. His act of terrorism serving as a call to arms failed. Sure they do. They represent different groups the mages set up that like political parties represent what those in that group stands for and want. Also the mage underground was just Kirkwall. Other Circles didn't have that.
|
|
inherit
Scribbles
185
0
30,192
Hanako Ikezawa
Fan from 2003 - 2020
22,332
August 2016
hanakoikezawa
|
Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 1, 2017 0:16:52 GMT
I wonder if you people supporting Anders would support that kind of action if it was the other way around. For example say Fenris blew up a Circle or a Tevinter building.
|
|
inherit
Scribbles
185
0
30,192
Hanako Ikezawa
Fan from 2003 - 2020
22,332
August 2016
hanakoikezawa
|
Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 1, 2017 0:26:57 GMT
All over the place. DA2, Asunder, DAI all have instances showing all of that. Plus they didn't even leave because of Anders' actions, instead it was a different thing that finally led to them leaving a few years after Anders did his thing. His act of terrorism serving as a call to arms failed. Sure they do. They represent different groups the mages set up that like political parties represent what those in that group stands for and want. Also the mage underground was just Kirkwall. Other Circles didn't have that. Starkhaven, Ferelden both had mages escaping. Hawkes father even escaped with a Templars help. I think in Orlais too. Anders did help with the mage underground. People wouldn't escape if there wasn't a reason. Anders blowing the Chantry was the beginning, without him the mages would probably not have the hope to leave. I can't see Wynne voting any other way then to remain in the circle, she had power and position and could come and go why would she take a tally and listen to lesser mages. What incentive does she have for that. Politicians don't always do what they say nor what the people want. There is a difference between individual escapes and an underground railroad. Anders did not give them hope. They all hated Anders for what he did and wrote him off as a lunatic. This is expressed multiple times in the games and books. Fiona also had power and position, more than Wynne did, and yet she voted to leave. Believe it or not, but mages can have a different opinion and actually want to stay in the Circles without them being selfish or compromised.
|
|