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Post by sageoflife on Sept 1, 2017 0:26:59 GMT
Consider the flavor text for the Magehunter shield.
"The third time the Right of Annulment was invoked on a Circle of Magi, in 3:09 Towers, Knight-Commander Gervasio of Antiva killed all of the city's mages for demonic possession. However, a massacre may have already occurred at the hands of Knight-Captain Nicolas, with the Right invoked as cover-up. The Seekers of Truth later apprehended Ser Nicholas, who had left the order to kill mages and admitted to having murdered over a hundred.":
Keep in mind that the Right of Annulment was first granted to the Templars in 2:84. The reason it was granted was a valid one, but that doesn't change the fact that the Templars only waited twenty-five years before they started abusing their right to kill every mage in a given tower.
Considering the goings on in the Gallows, and the fact that Meredith had gone over Elthina's head and was just waiting for Justinia's response, it seems pretty obvious to me that Anders's intervention is the only reason history didn't repeat. All signs point to the mages in the Gallows all dying regardless of what Anders does. So he can either do nothing and let the Chantry paint the mages as the problem again, or he can do something to give those deaths the chance to lead to a long-term improvement. That improvement didn't have to be brought about through war, but the Templars couldn't pull their heads out of their asses and consider that an illegal annulment is an extremely good reason for mages to be outraged.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 1, 2017 0:29:44 GMT
I wonder if you people supporting Anders would support that kind of action if it was the other way around. For example say Fenris blew up a Circle or a Tevinter building. Fenris wasn't a mage and has no reason to blow up a circle. If he went back to Tevinter to help the slaves yes I would support him depending on what he wanted, how could I not? Slavery is evil. He has just as much reason as Anders did to blow up the Chantry. A Circle is a building full of the kind of people who oppressed him and people like him for centuries. Not to mention the leader of that building was responsible for letting some very bad stuff happen.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 1, 2017 1:00:00 GMT
onvince What actions do you think Anders should have taken instead? He didn't need to convince the other mages, the other mages heard about what he did. In a way it gave them hope for freedom. Something no amount of talking did. The circle mages that voted though were the leaders. They have no reason to leave. Like Wynne she had it better than most, ability to leave for example that the other mages did not.I keep thinking about DAO and playing mage warden the first time. I was exploring the tower and walked up to the Templars by the door they would not let me out. Why? I was a mage and it wasn't allowed. I want out, let me out. No. When the Jowan quest opened up my first thought was yes! there is a way out. Sadly there wasn't. Just thinking about that and being forced to be inside your entire life is horrible, it is not life. Can't image that people are really accepting of that. Just a note: I don't think Anders is a saint. He did murder the Grand Cleric and dozens of people. If we were to judge Anders for his crimes in DAI my inquisitor would have him executed for the murders, no question. I just don't think there was any other way. It had to be done that way. Anders was right. That is not true. Connor voted aganist the dissolution and I doubt he's a senior enchanter. Perhaps am wrong or maybe Inquisition pulled a retcon of some kind. Anyways, upthread I state a couple others things he could have done. Assassinate Meredith, actually convince Orisino and the other mages to rebel instead of "inspiring" them through terrorism, try to find allies aganist Meredith's martial law and work with them to remove Meredith from power. Basically anything that doesn't involve manipulating a situation that would get the very people your trying to protect killed because you didn't inform them beforehand that your "revolution" was happening. The idea that was the ONLY option and that there weren't any alternatives seems disingenuous like tunnel vision to me but to each their own. I definately don't Anders is a saint either if that isn't obvious enough. Besides the terrorism he's also a hypocritic (yelling at Merrill for using blood magic even though he's abomination that almost killed an innocent girl, approving of Fenris being sold into slavery) but even with those huge flaws I still kind of feel sorry for him. He's not a tragic hero in my mind but he was a guy that at first was doing the right and smart thing by helping Ferelden refugees with his healing magic and teaching them that not all mages are evil and dangerous like the Chantry says. Which is why it's such a shame that he loses his mind (probably mostly Justice's fault) and does what he does at the end of Dragon Age 2. As someone who had a friendship relationship with Anders during my first playthrough, it felt like my Hawke was unknowningly enabling a friend with a severe mental illness which eventually lead him towards committing mass murder. This was Jennifer Helper's intention: that the friendship (romance) is "maniac" (she said), because, in friendship, Hawke strengthens his DELUSIONS, one problem whit this theory: Anders didn't have only one miserable delusion. Everything, what he said proved as true. What did he say? Otto Alric a sadistic pervert beast (proved), who wanted to be tranquil the whole Circle (proved), more and more Tranquil at Gallows (proved), the Templars abused their power (proved), Meredith go mad (proved), Meredith liquidated the Mage Underground (proved). So: where are his delusions? (Not mentioned, that rival!Hawke an idiot with his/her arguments. I never would be able to play such an idiot. [And what is rival!Hawke's reason to help Anders to distract Elthina? – Nothing. This is illogical too, just as rival!Hawke him/herself.] If friendly!Hawke is a madman, I don't mind, then all my Hawke are madmen. I can't rival Anders, because this is illogical. And I love Justice too.) I already told, why would Meredith's assassination is a foolish act. Anders would never able to convince Orsino to the open rebellion. Orsino was not able to imagine that. He wanted to convince Kirkwall's people to support them at Elthina against Meredith, but he wasn't a rebel. Anders yelling at Merrill, because he has experience with possession's dark side. And he undoubtedly he has bad manner. Nobody's perfect. Fenris approves, if Hawke deals with sloth demon, and kill Anders/Justice in the Fade... And at Danariaus, the others also do not do anything but shake their heads disapprovingly... Why everyone blames Justice for everything? (Even rivaled!Anders, who isn't able to take the responsibility anymore, counter to friendshipped!Anders, who takes the responsibility – I like this man better) Justice did nothing wrong. Except for Ella, in the heat of the battle – and he doesn't like if anyone calls him a demon. He's not a human, he reacts differently than a human. After Ella's case, Justice never comes out again, only when Anders distracted by Corypheus false Calling. In that moment, Justice wants to protect him. Just as when emerged at rival!Hawke. He didn't hurt Hawke. Hawke did hurt Anders/Justice with his/her idiot arguments... I admit I even would not tolerate so much nonsense without a word.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 1, 2017 1:02:48 GMT
Fenris wasn't a mage and has no reason to blow up a circle. If he went back to Tevinter to help the slaves yes I would support him depending on what he wanted, how could I not? Slavery is evil. He has just as much reason as Anders did to blow up the Chantry. A Circle is a building full of the kind of people who oppressed him and people like him for centuries. Not to mention the leader of that building was responsible for letting some very bad stuff happen. He would have reason to blow up the Magisterium. I would help him!
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Post by Sah291 on Sept 1, 2017 2:38:37 GMT
I wonder if you people supporting Anders would support that kind of action if it was the other way around. For example say Fenris blew up a Circle or a Tevinter building. It wasn't Fenris, but an elf did plan and attempt an attack on the city in act 2. I think if it wasn't a mage, it was only a matter of time until maybe an elf did it, since there was obviously a lot of unrest with them as well. Or a Darktown refugee even, a lot of people were starving and poor down there. onvince That is not true. Connor voted aganist the dissolution and I doubt he's a senior enchanter. Perhaps am wrong or maybe Inquisition pulled a retcon of some kind. Anyways, upthread I state a couple others things he could have done. Assassinate Meredith, actually convince Orisino and the other mages to rebel instead of "inspiring" them through terrorism, try to find allies aganist Meredith's martial law and work with them to remove Meredith from power. Basically anything that doesn't involve manipulating a situation that would get the very people your trying to protect killed because you didn't inform them beforehand that your "revolution" was happening. The idea that was the ONLY option and that there weren't any alternatives seems disingenuous like tunnel vision to me but to each their own. I definately don't Anders is a saint either if that isn't obvious enough. Besides the terrorism he's also a hypocritic (yelling at Merrill for using blood magic even though he's abomination that almost killed an innocent girl, approving of Fenris being sold into slavery) but even with those huge flaws I still kind of feel sorry for him. He's not a tragic hero in my mind but he was a guy that at first was doing the right and smart thing by helping Ferelden refugees with his healing magic and teaching them that not all mages are evil and dangerous like the Chantry says. Which is why it's such a shame that he loses his mind (probably mostly Justice's fault) and does what he does at the end of Dragon Age 2. As someone who had a friendship relationship with Anders during my first playthrough, it felt like my Hawke was unknowningly enabling a friend with a severe mental illness which eventually lead him towards committing mass murder. This was Jennifer Helper's intention: that the friendship (romance) is "maniac" (she said), because, in friendship, Hawke strengthens his DELUSIONS, one problem whit this theory: Anders didn't have only one miserable delusion. Everything, what he said proved as true. What did he say? Otto Alric a sadistic pervert beast (proved), who wanted to be tranquil the whole Circle (proved), more and more Tranquil at Gallows (proved), the Templars abused their power (proved), Meredith go mad (proved), Meredith liquidated the Mage Underground (proved). So: where are his delusions? (Not mentioned, that rival!Hawke an idiot with his/her arguments. I never would be able to play such an idiot. [And what is rival!Hawke's reason to help Anders to distract Elthina? – Nothing. This is illogical too, just as rival!Hawke him/herself.] If friendly!Hawke is a madman, I don't mind, then all my Hawke are madmen. I can't rival Anders, because this is illogical. And I love Justice too.) I already told, why would Meredith's assassination is a foolish act. Anders would never able to convince Orsino to the open rebellion. Orsino was not able to imagine that. He wanted to convince Kirkwall's people to support them at Elthina against Meredith, but he wasn't a rebel. Anders yelling at Merrill, because he has experience with possession's dark side. And he undoubtedly he has bad manner. Nobody's perfect. Fenris approves, if Hawke deals with sloth demon, and kill Anders/Justice in the Fade... And the others also do not do anything but shake their heads disapprovingly... Why everyone blames Justice for everything? (Even rivaled!Anders, who isn't able to take the responsibility anymore, counter to friendshipped!Anders, who takes the responsibility – I like this man better) Justice did nothing wrong. Except for Ella, in the heat of the battle – and he doesn't like if anyone calls him a demon. He's not a human, he reacts differently than a human. After Ella's case, Justice never comes out again, only when Anders distracted by Corypheus false Calling. In that moment, Justice wants to protect him. Just as when emerged at rival!Hawke. He didn't hurt Hawke. Hawke did hurt Anders/Justice with his/her idiot arguments... I admit I even would not tolerate so much nonsense without a word. That's a case where I just disagree with the writer's interpretation/intention, then, since I don't see Anders mentally ill. Well, depressed sure, and probably has PTSD of some kind, but I don't think anything he believed was going on in the city was delusional. He was an easy target to slap that label on, because he was a mage, and he was possessed. The tragic irony was everyone brushes him off as crazy, but had someone actually listened or took him seriously, things might have worked out different.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 1, 2017 9:46:58 GMT
This was Jennifer Helper's intention: that the friendship (romance) is "maniac" (she said), because, in friendship, Hawke strengthens his DELUSIONS, one problem whit this theory: Anders didn't have only one miserable delusion. Everything, what he said proved as true. What did he say? Otto Alric a sadistic pervert beast (proved), who wanted to be tranquil the whole Circle (proved), more and more Tranquil at Gallows (proved), the Templars abused their power (proved), Meredith go mad (proved), Meredith liquidated the Mage Underground (proved). So: where are his delusions? (Not mentioned, that rival!Hawke an idiot with his/her arguments. I never would be able to play such an idiot. [And what is rival!Hawke's reason to help Anders to distract Elthina? – Nothing. This is illogical too, just as rival!Hawke him/herself.] If friendly!Hawke is a madman, I don't mind, then all my Hawke are madmen. I can't rival Anders, because this is illogical. And I love Justice too.)
I already told, why would Meredith's assassination is a foolish act. Anders would never able to convince Orsino to the open rebellion. Orsino was not able to imagine that. He wanted to convince Kirkwall's people to support them at Elthina against Meredith, but he wasn't a rebel.
Anders yelling at Merrill, because he has experience with possession's dark side. And he undoubtedly he has bad manner. Nobody's perfect. Fenris approves, if Hawke deals with sloth demon, and kill Anders/Justice in the Fade... And the others also do not do anything but shake their heads disapprovingly...
Why everyone blames Justice for everything? (Even rivaled!Anders, who isn't able to take the responsibility anymore, counter to friendshipped!Anders, who takes the responsibility – I like this man better) Justice did nothing wrong. Except for Ella, in the heat of the battle – and he doesn't like if anyone calls him a demon. He's not a human, he reacts differently than a human. After Ella's case, Justice never comes out again, only when Anders distracted by Corypheus false Calling. In that moment, Justice wants to protect him. Just as when emerged at rival!Hawke. He didn't hurt Hawke. Hawke did hurt Anders/Justice with his/her idiot arguments... I admit I even would not tolerate so much nonsense without a word. That's a case where I just disagree with the writer's interpretation/intention, then, since I don't see Anders mentally ill. Well, depressed sure, and probably has PTSD of some kind, but I don't think anything he believed was going on in the city was delusional. He was an easy target to slap that label on, because he was a mage, and he was possessed. The tragic irony was everyone brushes him off as crazy, but had someone actually listened or took him seriously, things might have worked out different. Exactly so. I understand Hepler, why she used bipolar disorder to modeling Anders/Justice's case, because I also use mental illness for illustration of his behavior (multiple personality disorder – I'm not a psychiatrist, but I think this a good parallel, but perhaps I'm wrong), but not for modeling his mental state. The significant difference between him and a person who really has the mental illness, that his "voices" in his head and his multiple personalities are real, not a delusion. This explains a lot of things about his behavior, but not a mental illness. And yes, of course, he has depression, PTSD – he damaged, just as every Mage and Templar in the Circle (and almost everyone in this game!), after the one-year solitary confinement this is "natural", but he doesn't have any delusion. (In fact, rival!Hawke has delusions about a benevolent logical Grand Cleric, who listens to the people and care about them, a judicious Knight Commander, who able to see her own weakness, and able to retreat, and people who will trust in the Mages due to a magical touch... so: rival!Hawke has a complete fairy tale in his/her head...)
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Post by Beerfish on Nov 8, 2017 21:23:07 GMT
If Anders' goal was to get hundreds if not thousands of mages killed and if his goal was to act radically for a minority of mages well then his means justified the end.
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Post by Catilina on Nov 8, 2017 21:42:03 GMT
If Anders' goal was to get hundreds if not thousands of mages killed and if his goal was to act radically for a minority of mages well then his means justified the end. Revolutions mostly bloody, but sometimes necessary. There the supply met demand. If nobody needs this rebellion, then his spark wouldn't able to lit a fire.
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Post by Beerfish on Nov 8, 2017 21:52:13 GMT
If Anders' goal was to get hundreds if not thousands of mages killed and if his goal was to act radically for a minority of mages well then his means justified the end. Revolutions mostly bloody, but sometimes necessary. There the supply met demand. If nobody needs this rebellion, then his spark wouldn't able to lit a fire. 1) He made this description totally on his own with no mandate to do so at all and against the wishes of the majority of the mages. 2) His decisions directly caused the death of many mages, some would say unnecessarily, but he cared nothing at all about that. 3) Supply and demand? As in we can afford to have many mages die as long as my selfish little war starts? 4) Blowing up the chantry when there is already a tenuous situation was no spark it was a full on implosion with no going back. 5) His little act probably set back the plight of mages many years because although as usual people like to think of this as chantry/templars vs the mages it reality it in the end will be all about the common person and how they view those factions.
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Post by Catilina on Nov 8, 2017 22:05:43 GMT
Revolutions mostly bloody, but sometimes necessary. There the supply met demand. If nobody needs this rebellion, then his spark wouldn't able to lit a fire. 1) He made this description totally on his own with no mandate to do so at all and against the wishes of the majority of the mages. 2) His decisions directly caused the death of many mages, some would say unnecessarily, but he cared nothing at all about that. 3) Supply and demand? As in we can afford to have many mages die as long as my selfish little war starts? 4) Blowing up the chantry when there is already a tenuous situation was no spark it was a full on implosion with no going back. 5) His little act probably set back the plight of mages many years because although as usual people like to think of this as chantry/templars vs the mages it reality it in the end will be all about the common person and how they view those factions. 1. Most of the slaves, for example, don't want freedom because of they fear of freedom and fear from their master and the people. And because their master's house is their "home"... remember Orana... Fenris escaped accidentally at first... 2. The revolutions directly caused not only the oppressors death but even the revolutionaries' death. Mostly innocents. 3. This war was not "selfish". 4. Well, it was a really great spark... 5. Haha! What Anders said? "We were already doomed. A quick death now or a slow one later - I'd rather die fighting." And he was right. Oppressed people can't "earn" their freedom, with any good behavior, this is a big, stinky bullshit. The obedience doesn't help, only to be "fashionable accessory" (a'la Vivienne...), but that's not freedom. Bethany was a mage, who never would able to rebel, but at the end she supports the revolution. And you can't say, that the Templars protected the people! First: they rebelled too. Second: if the Templars, the Chantry, let the mages just go, the war would end quickly, and the "common people" would live calmly.
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Post by warden on Nov 27, 2017 13:57:12 GMT
In the end the "rebellion" didn't accomplish much, started pathetically and ended pathetically, just like Anders.
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Post by Catilina on Nov 27, 2017 14:42:06 GMT
In the end the "rebellion" didn't accomplish much, started pathetically and ended pathetically, just like Anders. I think not. The world changed, nothing will be same as was before. Anders won, even if he killed by Hawke.
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Post by warden on Nov 27, 2017 14:50:28 GMT
In the end the "rebellion" didn't accomplish much, started pathetically and ended pathetically, just like Anders. I think not. The world changed, nothing will be same as was before. Anders won, even if he killed by Hawke. the world has not changed, is changing (and very slowly) and that has more to due with Corypheus and later Solas than the "rebellion" which was a conflict that got solved very quickly in Inquisition in fact. Anders neither has won or did anything, just got exiled or killed pathetically depending of the players choice, nothing more.
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Post by Catilina on Nov 27, 2017 15:33:39 GMT
I think not. The world changed, nothing will be same as was before. Anders won, even if he killed by Hawke. the world has not changed, is changing (and very slowly) and that has more to due with Corypheus and later Solas than the "rebellion" which was a conflict that got solved very quickly in Inquisition in fact. Anders neither has won or did anything, just got exiled or killed pathetically depending of the players choice, nothing more. The point is the rebellion started, and this changed the world faster than usual. Without Anders the things wouldn't change in this way. The Conclave wouldn't happen for example. He only ignited a spark, but without any interest, the spark would extinguishes without fire. But the Circles rebelled after that happens in Kirkwall. His death was not pathetic. He waited Hawke's verdict, and accepts that, or if Hawke sent him away, he still continued his fight, even against Hawke. Only one situation is cruel from his viewpoint: if Hawke crushed him, and forces him to fight against the Mages: but still, if this is the verdict, he accepted. So, no. He's everything just not pathetic.
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Post by themikefest on Nov 27, 2017 19:23:34 GMT
Anders won? Does that mean pigs can fly?
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Post by davesin on Nov 27, 2017 19:41:39 GMT
I think Dorian mentioned cows flying above Minrathous, so... I guess flying pigs aren't off question?
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Post by Catilina on Nov 27, 2017 20:58:24 GMT
Anders won? Does that mean pigs can fly? Of course! Flying pigs everywhere!
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Post by mike3207 on Nov 28, 2017 3:07:02 GMT
Anders destroyed some city property, and a few lives in the process.
The Circles could have decided to rebel with or without the destruction of property.
In other words, there is no cause and effect between Anders destruction and the mage rebellion.
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Post by Catilina on Nov 28, 2017 12:33:43 GMT
Anders destroyed some city property, and a few lives in the process. The Circles could have decided to rebel with or without the destruction of property. In other words, there is no cause and effect between Anders destruction and the mage rebellion. Anders destroyed a Chantry property, a symbol of the oppression, and the Kirkwall's greatest religious and political power (Grand Cleric Elthina). Of course, they could, but didn't do it before, only after. After the Kirkwall's rebellion, the Circles started to rebel (Varric in the epilogue; Hawke in Inquisition – optionally), and the Divine convened the Conclave. There's a causal relationship.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 28, 2017 17:17:24 GMT
Anders destroyed some city property, and a few lives in the process. The Circles could have decided to rebel with or without the destruction of property. In other words, there is no cause and effect between Anders destruction and the mage rebellion. Anders destroyed a Chantry property, a symbol of the oppression, and the Kirkwall's greatest religious and political power (Grand Cleric Elthina). Of course, they could, but didn't do it before, only after. After the Kirkwall's rebellion, the Circles started to rebel (Varric in the epilogue; Hawke in Inquisition – optionally), and the Divine convened the Conclave. There's a causal relationship. Correlation does not mean causation. Dragon Age: Asunder explains the actual reasons the Circles rebel, and it is not because of Anders.
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127
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18,241
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Nov 28, 2017 17:44:57 GMT
Anders destroyed a Chantry property, a symbol of the oppression, and the Kirkwall's greatest religious and political power (Grand Cleric Elthina). Of course, they could, but didn't do it before, only after. After the Kirkwall's rebellion, the Circles started to rebel (Varric in the epilogue; Hawke in Inquisition – optionally), and the Divine convened the Conclave. There's a causal relationship. Correlation does not mean causation. Dragon Age: Asunder explains the actual reasons the Circles rebel, and it is not because of Anders. Of course it is. Anyway, I wrote my opinion, and these based on the game. The Asunder is another, line, a consequence and a parallel both, but there is no significant contradiction between the game and the book. At least no more, than Leliana's possible death and her Divinity, Anders's death by the Templars in Awakening, and his appeal in DA2 with Justice, who the dead (tranquil) Anders never knew... Again: Varric said in the epilogue, and later Hawke said in Inquisition. And: Vivienne, Varric blames him too for the war. Plus: "News of the slaughter of Kirkwall's Circle spread far beyond the city's borders. The Champion's name became a rallying cry, either as a symbol of Mage resistance or of Templar jurisdiction. This, in turn, incited the Circles in other nations to rise up against the Templars and the Chantry, bringing Thedas to the brink of a war between the mages and Templars on a worldwide scale."
"The Mage-Templar War broke out in 9:37 Dragon between the mages and the Templars and escalated after the decision of the Fraternities conclave to separate the Circle of Magi from the Chantry in 9:40 following the revolt at the White Spire in Val Royeaux. Contributing earlier events include the 9:37 rebellion in Kirkwall, a city-state in the southern Free Marches, and the dissolution of the College of Enchanters in 9:38 after the rejected motion to abolish the Circles."If Anders didn't ignite the spark, this wouldn't happen, the Conclave wouldn't happen. The process wouldn't be started, or perhaps would, but even later. His decision justified to me.
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18,241
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11,030
August 2016
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Nov 29, 2017 14:11:43 GMT
Of course it is. Anyway, I wrote my opinion, and these based on the game. The Asunder is another, line, a consequence and a parallel both, but there is no significant contradiction between the game and the book. At least no more, than Leliana's possible death and her Divinity, Anders's death by the Templars in Awakening, and his appeal in DA2 with Justice, who the dead (tranquil) Anders never knew... Again: Varric said in the epilogue, and later Hawke said in Inquisition. And: Vivienne, Varric blames him too for the war. Plus: "News of the slaughter of Kirkwall's Circle spread far beyond the city's borders. The Champion's name became a rallying cry, either as a symbol of Mage resistance or of Templar jurisdiction. This, in turn, incited the Circles in other nations to rise up against the Templars and the Chantry, bringing Thedas to the brink of a war between the mages and Templars on a worldwide scale."
"The Mage-Templar War broke out in 9:37 Dragon between the mages and the Templars and escalated after the decision of the Fraternities conclave to separate the Circle of Magi from the Chantry in 9:40 following the revolt at the White Spire in Val Royeaux. Contributing earlier events include the 9:37 rebellion in Kirkwall, a city-state in the southern Free Marches, and the dissolution of the College of Enchanters in 9:38 after the rejected motion to abolish the Circles."If Anders didn't ignite the spark, this wouldn't happen, the Conclave wouldn't happen. The process wouldn't be started, or perhaps would, but even later. His decision justified to me. Wondering if any other person beside Anders blew up the Chantry would it have had the same effect for the other mages and circles. Anders escaped seven times and became a Warden helping to save Vigils keep and Amaranthine and defeat the darkspawn, so his story may have have been whispered among the mages in the other circles. I suppose yes, if any other Mage would do it, the result would same/similar. The start of the rebellion was bound rather to the action (open attack/provocation against the Chantry) and the circumstances (Kirkwall's Circle's cruelty and the Knight Commander's madness, and the fact, that the mages would able to an open confrontation due to an Annulment), and the fact, that Anders was a mage. A non-mage person's attack against the Chantry of course wouldn't start a mage rebellion, but if any mage would do it, the result would same. True, only Anders/Justice was able to do it. To be honest, Anders perhaps was not a popular person with his escapes, despite that probably many mages admire his free soul secretly. The Templars of course tightened the rules and restricted the Mages' "freedom" inside the Circle, after Anders' escapes. In normal case this would lead to a rebellion, but the inside the Circle, the mages (just as the slaves) rather quiet tolerate the punisments, and blame the "renegade" one, who wanted to live freely, and don't want to be obedient. The collective punishment is the tool what the oppressors use against the people effectively. This is a tool to use people against each other. This is sad. Anders was one of the heroes of Amarantine and the Vigil's Keep, but an escaped Grey Warden as well. We know what was his reason to escape, but many people's eyes, his escape was only cowardice. He's not a Grey Warden icon. He's an icon in the eyes of the Darktown's poor people and the refugees. Not mentioned many of the Circle Mages are Chantry-Andrastian... In their eyes, an attack against the Chantry is an attack against their religion. At this moment Anders is at least a very controversial person in the eyes of the mages. I suppose there was who admire him secretly, but openly only a few. At the moment.
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Nov 26, 2017 12:37:49 GMT
21,685
fylimar
5,414
Aug 16, 2016 18:31:34 GMT
August 2016
fylimar
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by fylimar on Dec 7, 2017 22:43:47 GMT
Wondering if any other person beside Anders blew up the Chantry would it have had the same effect for the other mages and circles. Anders escaped seven times and became a Warden helping to save Vigils keep and Amaranthine and defeat the darkspawn, so his story may have have been whispered among the mages in the other circles. I suppose yes, if any other Mage would do it, the result would same/similar. The start of the rebellion was bound rather to the action (open attack/provocation against the Chantry) and the circumstances (Kirkwall's Circle's cruelty and the Knight Commander's madness, and the fact, that the mages would able to an open confrontation due to an Annulment), and the fact, that Anders was a mage. A non-mage person's attack against the Chantry of course wouldn't start a mage rebellion, but if any mage would do it, the result would same. True, only Anders/Justice was able to do it. To be honest, Anders perhaps was not a popular person with his escapes, despite that probably many mages admire his free soul secretly. The Templars of course tightened the rules and restricted the Mages' "freedom" inside the Circle, after Anders' escapes. In normal case this would lead to a rebellion, but the inside the Circle, the mages (just as the slaves) rather quiet tolerate the punisments, and blame the "renegade" one, who wanted to live freely, and don't want to be obedient. The collective punishment is the tool what the oppressors use against the people effectively. This is a tool to use people against each other. This is sad. Anders was one of the heroes of Amarantine and the Vigil's Keep, but an escaped Grey Warden as well. We know what was his reason to escape, but many people's eyes, his escape was only cowardice. He's not a Grey Warden icon. He's an icon in the eyes of the Darktown's poor people and the refugees. Not mentioned many of the Circle Mages are Chantry-Andrastian... In their eyes, an attack against the Chantry is an attack against their religion. At this moment Anders is at least a very controversial person in the eyes of the mages. I suppose there was who admire him secretly, but openly only a few. At the moment. To be honest: I always wondered, how wide known the fact was, that Anders left the GW. I always thought, they wouldn't let outsider in on their problems, but Anders told Hawke about him leaving the GW on their very first meeting. If he only told Hawke and Co, because he needed their help, then he still could be a GW for everyone else (not that Meredith would care, I guess). I agree, that it probably didn't matter, who did the deed, as long as it was made known, that it was a mage.
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August 2016
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Dec 8, 2017 1:15:45 GMT
To be honest: I always wondered, how wide known the fact was, that Anders left the GW. I always thought, they wouldn't let outsider in on their problems, but Anders told Hawke about him leaving the GW on their very first meeting. If he only told Hawke and Co, because he needed their help, then he still could be a GW for everyone else (not that Meredith would care, I guess). I agree, that it probably didn't matter, who did the deed, as long as it was made known, that it was a mage. Me too. Its a good question. At least in Lowtown and Darktown some people did know like the girl in Lirene's store. Could be they heard stories about Anders from traveling with the Warden but not from Anders himself. I think Anders would answer honestly if asked. And since he was healer for the people they wouldn't turn him into the circle. Probably, he was already a wanted apostate again, in the Circle, as I know, because of Rolan. True, probably no eyewitness remained, thanks to Justice. Anyway, Stroud seems was not hostile, but if Rolan already told about Anders before to the Templars, and this isn't excluded, Anders was not in safe just because he's a Grey Warden. If not, this is an explanation, why they didn't arrest him. The other explanation, as you wrote: his free health services kept the refugees calm in the Darktown. This is not a little thing in such a crisis. In this case, even if the Templars knew about him, they let him work and kept an eye on him.
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3532
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Jan 22, 2022 10:09:38 GMT
2,504
ComedicSociopathy
1,037
Feb 12, 2017 21:39:59 GMT
February 2017
delightdul
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Feb 9, 2018 16:03:39 GMT
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