Sanunes
N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sanunes on Sept 3, 2017 0:05:39 GMT
Shortly after 1.10 was released I went back and started to play the older BioWare games starting with Jade Empire, I don't think it aged well and had to stop playing before my good memories of it disappeared. After that I went to Dragon Age: Origins and Dragon Age 2 and I realized the parts of Dragon Age: Origins that were mostly like Andromeda the open world parts being The Deep Roads and The Fade were the two areas I hated the most in the game and looking at my old saves of Origins any game I abandoned, I abandoned inside The Deep Roads. The areas I liked the most in Origins were the ones that were maze-like which were like the layout of the dungeons in Dragon Age 2 and even then those areas were quite small. I think those dungeons were designed well in Dragon Age 2, they just needed to have more design variants.
I have recently just sped through Mass Effect 1 for I forgot how short the game could be and found that after a planet or two I would just drive directly to the objectives that were pre-marked on my map and ignore the exploration of the planets themselves. I didn't even really find the planets we could land on to be that much of an open world for they were all pretty empty with a couple of resources for the collection quests, but other then that nothing important was there.
Now to the point that relates to Andromeda, I know there were technical issues with Andromeda, but would you think BioWare has a weakness when they try and do full open world style with their games? When playing Andromeda I found the times I had the most fun were the areas that were the more structured for it had more scripted moments that allowed the characters to develop while staying on the mission instead of the background conversations we had on the open worlds. Now the only exception I would say I had to that argument was on H-047c for I enjoyed how the different party members reacted to my driving and suicidal tenancies there even then I would consider that the least open world part of the game since you could only drive to the protected areas. I could also see the possibility of less technical issues for I find open world games generally have the most problems at launch regardless of developer/publisher.
Personally after going back and playing those older games I think I would be more accepting of a more corridor style game if it brought back the character and squad development or at least removed the feeling of there being less if that is the case. While having maybe a couple of more open areas of the game, but being smaller then being a large chunk of the game relying on the trappings of being open world.
Anyway, just my two cents after replaying some of the older games and seeing how I felt after playing them compared to Andromeda.
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Post by river82 on Sept 3, 2017 0:23:35 GMT
I know there were technical issues with Andromeda, but would you think BioWare has a weakness when they try and do full open world style with their games? Every time they try it they kinda botch the job. I would prefer they go back toward linear stories/worlds with choices and strategic combat (the infinity engine was created for strategic games, before Battleground Infinity morphed into Baldur's Gate. Strategic combat is in their roots.)
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 3, 2017 0:28:00 GMT
After that I went to Dragon Age: Origins and Dragon Age 2 and I realized the parts of Dragon Age: Origins that were mostly like Andromeda the open world parts being The Deep Roads and The Fade were the two areas I hated the most in the game and looking at my old saves of Origins any game I abandoned, I abandoned inside The Deep Roads. How are the Deep Roads and the Fade open world? There is literally only one, occasionally two, ways you can go through the map. Dragon Age didn't have open world until Inquisition.
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Post by ShadowAngel on Sept 3, 2017 0:33:19 GMT
The deep roads and fade are very linear, how do they carry the same issues as open world?
I honestly don't have any issue playing the older games, even most older games in general cause I honestly don't like most games made these days. They look great but play like crap.
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Sanunes
N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sanunes on Sept 3, 2017 0:41:04 GMT
After that I went to Dragon Age: Origins and Dragon Age 2 and I realized the parts of Dragon Age: Origins that were mostly like Andromeda the open world parts being The Deep Roads and The Fade were the two areas I hated the most in the game and looking at my old saves of Origins any game I abandoned, I abandoned inside The Deep Roads. How are the Deep Roads and the Fade open world? There is literally only one, occasionally two, ways you can go through the map. Dragon Age didn't have open world until Inquisition. Maybe open world wasn't the best description for them, but they did feel directionless and without structure which is how I feel when playing open world games.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 3, 2017 1:02:08 GMT
How are the Deep Roads and the Fade open world? There is literally only one, occasionally two, ways you can go through the map. Dragon Age didn't have open world until Inquisition. Maybe open world wasn't the best description for them, but they did feel directionless and without structure which is how I feel when playing open world games. I think this points out something interesting in that it doesn't matter if the game is linear or open world since both can feel equally boring for players. So it's not whether it is linear or open world, it's just how full is the world.
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Post by alanc9 on Sept 3, 2017 1:14:49 GMT
After that I went to Dragon Age: Origins and Dragon Age 2 and I realized the parts of Dragon Age: Origins that were mostly like Andromeda the open world parts being The Deep Roads and The Fade were the two areas I hated the most in the game and looking at my old saves of Origins any game I abandoned, I abandoned inside The Deep Roads. How are the Deep Roads and the Fade open world? There is literally only one, occasionally two, ways you can go through the map. Dragon Age didn't have open world until Inquisition. Similar psychology, right? A lot of space and a lot of pointless fighting you have to get through in order to get to where the real mission is?
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Post by KaiserShep on Sept 3, 2017 2:07:47 GMT
The deep roads and fade are very linear, how do they carry the same issues as open world? I honestly don't have any issue playing the older games, even most older games in general cause I honestly don't like most games made these days. They look great but play like crap. The Deep Roads I could get into because of the various bits and quests and things that go on there, but to the void with the Fade. All that backtracking. It may be linear, but it's a gorram horrible zigzag.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2017 2:11:01 GMT
How are the Deep Roads and the Fade open world? There is literally only one, occasionally two, ways you can go through the map. Dragon Age didn't have open world until Inquisition. Maybe open world wasn't the best description for them, but they did feel directionless and without structure which is how I feel when playing open world games. I really enjoy the bits you might call "directionless and without structure". I don't play games to be fed a storyline chapter by chapter, but to create my own character's narrative. My characters are never without direction (though I, as a player, sometimes feel frustrated when a game won't allow me to do the thing I think my character would do at any given time). Games that only push me through a specific narrative may as well be movies imho.
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Post by Guts on Sept 3, 2017 7:32:16 GMT
I was admittedly annoyed by how driving off a large cliff would just result in you getting teleported back and losing a bit of shield and health. I mean I'd prefer something a little more punishing tbh.
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Sept 3, 2017 7:57:51 GMT
Maybe open world wasn't the best description for them, but they did feel directionless and without structure which is how I feel when playing open world games. I really enjoy the bits you might call "directionless and without structure". I don't play games to be fed a storyline chapter by chapter, but to create my own character's narrative. My characters are never without direction (though I, as a player, sometimes feel frustrated when a game won't allow me to do the thing I think my character would do at any given time). Games that only push me through a specific narrative may as be movies imho. "Games that only push me through a specific narrative may as be movies imho." and this is why my signature is like it is on ME series.
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Post by KaiserShep on Sept 3, 2017 8:09:43 GMT
I was admittedly annoyed by how driving off a large cliff would just result in you getting teleported back and losing a bit of shield and health. I mean I'd prefer something a little more punishing tbh. Well, a bit more would basically just be ME1. Like on Noveria when you're making your way to Peak 15 or Feros when taking that roadway forward, if you drive off the cliff or go over the side, it's game over. Though the bursting into flames as you're falling is a bit much lol. I wasn't surprised to see it come back though, since Inquisition did the exact same thing. Falling off of high places should result in automatic death, even if pull a Thelma & Louise while riding the horse (who is totally immune to high places somehow!).
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Post by Psychevore on Sept 3, 2017 8:26:55 GMT
I don't replay older Bioware games.
It tends to make me really sad. Time is not kind to these games.
Replaying Baldur's Gate was an exersize in frustration and wondering how we used to deal with such...crap.
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Post by guanxi on Sept 3, 2017 8:47:19 GMT
ME1 did it best imo. There should be two types of worlds in these games:
Level worlds / primary quest hubs (mandatory, linear)
Open worlds for (secondary) exploration-based questing (optional) to pad out the experience.
70% of time and budget should be spent on the main quest (level worlds, story hubs), 30% developing the optional content which could be farmed out to contractors. Andromeda had it backwards, the open world had taken over the lions share of the budget and the story and characters suffered. Go back to the old model because it works.
Release additional optional content (exploration based secondary questing framed around a central narrative like BDTS as DLC) to flesh out the undercooked exploration for those who want more of it
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Post by suikoden on Sept 3, 2017 8:56:45 GMT
I don't replay older Bioware games. It tends to make me really sad. Time is not kind to these games. Replaying Baldur's Gate was an exersize in frustration and wondering how we used to deal with such...crap. Opposite for me - Baldur's Gate shits on all Bioware games that came after. Still blows me away the amount of freedom in those games. You can go into virtually every building - steal anything from everyone, actually kill whoever you want, have party members permanently die, and it had romances. BG2 still would be my favourite RPG of all time. Modern Bioware games are just an exercise in frustration - trilogy and Origins were good though. Basically everything Bioware had in the pipeline pre-EA still has that old Bioware magic that's now long gone.
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Post by Psychevore on Sept 3, 2017 9:14:13 GMT
I don't replay older Bioware games. It tends to make me really sad. Time is not kind to these games. Replaying Baldur's Gate was an exersize in frustration and wondering how we used to deal with such...crap. Opposite for me - Baldur's Gate shits on all Bioware games that came after. Still blows me away the amount of freedom in those games. You can go into virtually every building - steal anything from everyone, actually kill whoever you want, have party members permanently die, and it had romances. BG2 still would be my favourite RPG of all time. Modern Bioware games are just an exercise in frustration - trilogy and Origins were good though. Basically everything Bioware had in the pipeline pre-EA still has that old Bioware magic that's now long gone. Ah, you're one of those. When was the last time you actually played the games? Menus are awful, 'animations' are lulz and combat is boring as fuck because you're mostly just waiting for someone to hit something while they are mostly beating up the air around them. Sure, the story is great and you have a lot of freedom, but time has not been well on these games. I'd much, much rather play one of it's modern successors (Pillars of Eternity ) than replay any of the BGs.
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Post by KaiserShep on Sept 3, 2017 9:15:19 GMT
Permadeath and being able to kill whoever you want never really appealed to me much in these games, because it kinda reveals the inherent shallowness of the game's limitations. Like, in Origins I killed as many people as I could and stole whatever I could with my City Elf. I murdered half the guards in Denerim and knifed people for looking at his crazy bald head cockeyed yet nothing really became of it, because the game can't realistically do much with all this lulzworthy mayhem. I'd much rather companions have the capacity to be more involved in the story and possibly die in a big turning point, which things like permadeath takes away.
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Post by vonuber on Sept 3, 2017 9:55:17 GMT
I found BG2 impossible to play to be honest. A complete and utter exercise in frustration and deliberate opacity. I have better uses for my time to be honest.
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Post by suikoden on Sept 3, 2017 10:05:14 GMT
I found BG2 impossible to play to be honest. A complete and utter exercise in frustration and deliberate opacity. I have better uses for my time to be honest. Exactly how I feel about Andromeda.
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Post by vonuber on Sept 3, 2017 10:40:33 GMT
I found BG2 impossible to play to be honest. A complete and utter exercise in frustration and deliberate opacity. I have better uses for my time to be honest. Exactly how I feel about Andromeda. Good for you.
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Post by themikefest on Sept 3, 2017 11:23:29 GMT
the fade and deep roads? Both were excellent in DAO. It was great running around as the burning man, as a spirit floating everywhere, being a mouse without any of the baddies noticing you or as the golem bashing everything in sight. excellent. The deep roads was great as well. Every time a darkspawn shows up the music kicks in. excellent.
Hopefully the next DA game will let me spend a lot of time in the fade. The deep roads as well. excellent
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Post by haolyn on Sept 3, 2017 12:16:50 GMT
i agree bioware doesn't seem to be able to handle open world games well.... but still, to me mass effect is supposed to be a series about space exploration. if you're gonna make a video game and set it in space, take full advantage of the setting and let players actually explore entire planets. so even if they don't get the open world aspect entirely right in ME1 and MEA, i still applaud them for even trying
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Post by maxon on Sept 3, 2017 13:36:38 GMT
the fade and deep roads? Both were excellent in DAO. It was great running around as the burning man, as a spirit floating everywhere, being a mouse without any of the baddies noticing you or as the golem bashing everything in sight. excellent. The deep roads was great as well. Every time a darkspawn shows up the music kicks in. excellent. Hopefully the next DA game will let me spend a lot of time in the fade. The deep rods as well. excellent I don't often agree with you but I have to agree here. The Deep Roads, in particular, were great. The end sequence as you find out what happened to Branka's expedition and house. That whole thing, starting from the hints you get right at the start of the sequence, was a horrifying story but really well done.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Sept 3, 2017 14:54:05 GMT
I still mod KotOR and TSL, albeit at a snail's pace and only in brief flurries with long gaps between.
I like KotOR, as simple as it is, and the modding community is still active amazingly, although it seems everything these days is just reskins. For a game as old as that, that people still mod it is remarkable.
I need to replay DAO, I have never played the Witch Hunt DLC or Awakening, and I bought both over a year ago during an Origin sale.
I want to replay DA2, because I never payed attention to the "loyalty" missions because the game doesn't make it obvious, and so I realized late in the game that it was too late to get Fenris anything better than the trash he had, and that went for the others as well. I guess I was paying attention to the good story and the piss-poor recycled maps.
I also would really like to play DAI again, just to see what the patches did and maybe get the Solas DLC if it ever goes on sale. However, I am loathe to do this, as I have tried several times to make a go of a second playthrough, and have failed quickly. The open world MMO fetchy execution simply bores me immediately.
I own Jade Empire, need to play it. I was caught off guard by how dated it looked and stopped; how does it look worse than KotOR? Maybe I need to look at config settings for that one...
Never played the Baldur's Gate games, or any of the NWN. I know a fair bit about NWN from years of studying the Lexicon, as it was a good source of Aurora Engine scripting knowledge. Not my cups of tea, I think, especially without any nostalgic force to drive my interest.
I am sure to do another MET playthrough at some point... I for some reason want to talk to the Leviathan again, as well as do the Pyramid adventures that exist in 1 & 2. The text adventure of Shepard the caveman is one of my favorite moments in all of Mass Effect.
No shame in playing what you like.
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Post by mikeymoonshine on Sept 3, 2017 14:57:35 GMT
I don't replay older Bioware games. It tends to make me really sad. Time is not kind to these games. Replaying Baldur's Gate was an exersize in frustration and wondering how we used to deal with such...crap. Opposite for me - Baldur's Gate shits on all Bioware games that came after. Still blows me away the amount of freedom in those games. You can go into virtually every building - steal anything from everyone, actually kill whoever you want, have party members permanently die, and it had romances. BG2 still would be my favourite RPG of all time. Modern Bioware games are just an exercise in frustration - trilogy and Origins were good though. Basically everything Bioware had in the pipeline pre-EA still has that old Bioware magic that's now long gone. Baldur's Gate 2 is awesome even today (with a few mods or the enhanced edition to make it actually work on my pc) but the first one, I like it but a lot of it was really tedious and the exploration was awful. Endless wondering through wilderness areas that looked pretty much exactly the same as the last area you were in and had very little in them. Like one area might have a couple of quests that were something like "find a cat and give it to a girl" or "protect a tree" and some hidden items but that was usually it. How is that better than Exploration in Inquisition or Andromeda? I liked the main plot and other aspects of the game and not all the side quests were terrible but Baldur's Gate Two massivly improved upon the first in almost every way.
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