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Post by opuspace on Sept 27, 2016 0:38:45 GMT
Your description.... I gave Kingdom of Amalur a shot because you could be a thief mage or a magical thief, or even a tank mage. And fiery chakrams are cool. And if you ever wanted to swipe and re build, you could do it (similar to the amulets in DAI letting you do a reset of skill points.) I dropped the game for now, but that was a huge selling point. The only problem with the melding of the classes is that Thedas definitely has a "You were born a mage or you weren't" lore. Unless the Veil totally falls and literally everyone becomes a mage, I'm not interested in that lore being dropped to make others happier with the classes. Enchanted weapons and gear could give enough leverage for explaining the abilities of a rogue or warrior. In a way, crafting allowed precisely that for rogues or warriors even though it was a singular ability. And you definitely get a like for mentioning Kingdoms of Amalur.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Sept 27, 2016 20:34:40 GMT
I'm confused here, are you saying they get rid of classes completely and anyone can use magic or that mages be allowed to use weapons ability trees? Because the first option breaks the lore of the game and the second greatly overpowers mages at the expense of the other two classes. I address lore below. It doesn't have to break gameplay if you balance skill costs appropriately. Like, if you lock in "rogue" as your career, lockpicking costs 1 skill point. If you don't lock it in, or you have "warrior" or "mage" locked in, it costs 2 or 3 skillpoints, respectively. A simple balance system like that could work. I'm not sure this is the correct setting for the classless system. I do wish someone would properly implement it, though. The only problem with the melding of the classes is that Thedas definitely has a "You were born a mage or you weren't" lore. If Bioware had been scrupulous about conforming gameplay to lore, I'd have to agree. But they haven't been, far from it. Consider Arcane Warrior in DAO. When they needed to bend the rules of lore to make a gameplay concession, they didn't hesitate. So the same lore bending can be done here. Sure, mages are born mages and get locked into the mage career willy-nilly. Unless they are Dalish, or Avvar, or brought up in the Korcari Wilds, or are Titan-touched dwarves, or, or ... See what I mean? Tons of exceptions have already been made. Why not make a few more for players in DA4, that were brought up in northern Thedas, of which we know relatively little? The Chantry Circle isn't everywhere, even by classical lore.
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Post by Element Zero on Sept 28, 2016 1:20:21 GMT
I'm confused here, are you saying they get rid of classes completely and anyone can use magic or that mages be allowed to use weapons ability trees? Because the first option breaks the lore of the game and the second greatly overpowers mages at the expense of the other two classes. I address lore below. It doesn't have to break gameplay if you balance skill costs appropriately. Like, if you lock in "rogue" as your career, lockpicking costs 1 skill point. If you don't lock it in, or you have "warrior" or "mage" locked in, it costs 2 or 3 skillpoints, respectively. A simple balance system like that could work. I'm not sure this is the correct setting for the classless system. I do wish someone would properly implement it, though. The only problem with the melding of the classes is that Thedas definitely has a "You were born a mage or you weren't" lore. If Bioware had been scrupulous about conforming gameplay to lore, I'd have to agree. But they haven't been, far from it. Consider Arcane Warrior in DAO. When they needed to bend the rules of lore to make a gameplay concession, they didn't hesitate. So the same lore bending can be done here. Sure, mages are born mages and get locked into the mage career willy-nilly. Unless they are Dalish, or Avvar, or brought up in the Korcari Wilds, or are Titan-touched dwarves, or, or ... See what I mean? Tons of exceptions have already been made. Why not make a few more for players in DA4, that were brought up in northern Thedas, of which we know relatively little? The Chantry Circle isn't everywhere, even by classical lore. A shift in gameplay could be implemented, especially if a corresponding shift in the setting took place. We've been getting hints that big changes are coming for a long time. As you said, at the very least we are heading north to Tevinter. It's conceivable that the Veil comes down. Between those relative extremes lie the interesting possibilities of meeting "those from across the sea", the Scaled Ones, the Kossith, or any number of other cultures who may be structured very differently than those we've previously come to know. (I'd not be surprised if those three "distinct" peoples I listed above, off the top of my head, were actually linked, by the way. Two out of three, at least.) I'd love a well done, open system of character-building. I'm not holding my breath for it in this IP, though. The writing is incredibly creative, but the gameplay not so much.
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Post by Entropy on Sept 28, 2016 12:23:20 GMT
I address lore below. It doesn't have to break gameplay if you balance skill costs appropriately. Like, if you lock in "rogue" as your career, lockpicking costs 1 skill point. If you don't lock it in, or you have "warrior" or "mage" locked in, it costs 2 or 3 skillpoints, respectively. A simple balance system like that could work. They could also make the spell tree unlockable only at character creation. You get n points to spend, you want to be a mage? you have to spend 1 point unlocking it. I agree that they should do away with classes. DA2 would have benefited greatly from this, if mages can learn to use normal weapons you wouldn't have to cast fireballs in front of Kirkwall guards/templars... Another way to balance things, could be unlocking skills based on attributes, for example if you want to dual-weild you need a minimum dexterity of X. Or some spells being only available when you reach X points in magic.
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Post by jcewazhere on Sept 28, 2016 21:18:31 GMT
I vehemently disagree with the idea of merging rogues and warriors... Merging Leliana and Ohgren just think of the children However I think the idea of separating out the profession type skills like poison and trap making/using and letting all classes open doors and chests with varying degrees of success makes a lot of sense. Lore wise we already have arcane warriors, mages who can cast spells but prefer to be in the thick of battle. Non-mages simply can't cast spells so the reverse isn't possible.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2016 21:25:55 GMT
Merging the two classes is stupid, because there are separate abilities and fighting skills involved. Warriors are made to soak up damage and be in the front lines of the team, while rogues specialize in striking at enemies quickly and unknowingly. Therefore, keep the rogues and warriors separate.
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Post by Heimdall on Sept 28, 2016 21:34:01 GMT
I think it would be better simply to expand the options available to all classes.
I think most everyone wants more spell trees for mages, and warriors and rogues could benefit from more weapons (Say, a one handed sword option for rogues and a polearm option for warriors for example) in a addition to non-combat talents.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Sept 29, 2016 23:47:51 GMT
The only problem with the melding of the classes is that Thedas definitely has a "You were born a mage or you weren't" lore. If Bioware had been scrupulous about conforming gameplay to lore, I'd have to agree. But they haven't been, far from it. Consider Arcane Warrior in DAO. When they needed to bend the rules of lore to make a gameplay concession, they didn't hesitate. How is that the same thing, though? That's not a warrior learning to be magical, it's a mage learning a different form of magic, and I don't see how that form of magic violates the lore. So the same lore bending can be done here. Sure, mages are born mages and get locked into the mage career willy-nilly. Unless they are Dalish, or Avvar, or brought up in the Korcari Wilds, or are Titan-touched dwarves, or, or ... See what I mean? Tons of exceptions have already been made. Why not make a few more for players in DA4, that were brought up in northern Thedas, of which we know relatively little? The Chantry Circle isn't everywhere, even by classical lore. I don't get what you mean by the Dalish, Avvar and Korcari Wilds references. As for the Titan-touched dwarves, who've been imbued with magic, they aren't actually a form of lore-bending; non-mages being imbued with magic happens all the time in this setting. Templars, reavers, spirit warriors, Meredith's sword, the Inquisitor's mark, the Well of Sorrows... the only difference between the Titan-touched dwarves and the others is that the Titan-touched get closer to actually being mages. And this could be a means by which you could blend the classes, but it would only make sense for a non-mage to be able to do this if they've been explicitly imbued with power.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Sept 30, 2016 20:17:24 GMT
If Bioware had been scrupulous about conforming gameplay to lore, I'd have to agree. But they haven't been, far from it. Consider Arcane Warrior in DAO. When they needed to bend the rules of lore to make a gameplay concession, they didn't hesitate. How is that the same thing, though? That's not a warrior learning to be magical, it's a mage learning a different form of magic, and I don't see how that form of magic violates the lore. So the same lore bending can be done here. Sure, mages are born mages and get locked into the mage career willy-nilly. Unless they are Dalish, or Avvar, or brought up in the Korcari Wilds, or are Titan-touched dwarves, or, or ... See what I mean? Tons of exceptions have already been made. Why not make a few more for players in DA4, that were brought up in northern Thedas, of which we know relatively little? The Chantry Circle isn't everywhere, even by classical lore. I don't get what you mean by the Dalish, Avvar and Korcari Wilds references. As for the Titan-touched dwarves, who've been imbued with magic, they aren't actually a form of lore-bending; non-mages being imbued with magic happens all the time in this setting. Templars, reavers, spirit warriors, Meredith's sword, the Inquisitor's mark, the Well of Sorrows... the only difference between the Titan-touched dwarves and the others is that the Titan-touched get closer to actually being mages. And this could be a means by which you could blend the classes, but it would only make sense for a non-mage to be able to do this if they've been explicitly imbued with power. Keep in mind the original context of the statement I was responding to: "you are either born a mage, or you are not". And that in response to questioning how a game mechanic that allowed anyone to be anything could be squared with lore. The point I was trying to make is the same as what you said: "non-mages being imbued with magic happens all the time in this setting." We agree, at least about the end result. I'm also saying the motivation is often to accommodate a gameplay design goal. You make a good point that the motivation may sometimes be to accommodate a narrative story goal as well. Dalish, Avvar and Korcari Wilds (which is to say, specifically Morrigan) are just additional examples of either mages not necessarily being born mages, or, mages who are not locked into a career of being a mage necessarily, the way the Circle/Chantry works. Each example only applies to one or the other clause, which I'm sure is self-explanatory.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Oct 1, 2016 10:25:56 GMT
How is that the same thing, though? That's not a warrior learning to be magical, it's a mage learning a different form of magic, and I don't see how that form of magic violates the lore. I don't get what you mean by the Dalish, Avvar and Korcari Wilds references. As for the Titan-touched dwarves, who've been imbued with magic, they aren't actually a form of lore-bending; non-mages being imbued with magic happens all the time in this setting. Templars, reavers, spirit warriors, Meredith's sword, the Inquisitor's mark, the Well of Sorrows... the only difference between the Titan-touched dwarves and the others is that the Titan-touched get closer to actually being mages. And this could be a means by which you could blend the classes, but it would only make sense for a non-mage to be able to do this if they've been explicitly imbued with power. Keep in mind the original context of the statement I was responding to: "you are either born a mage, or you are not". And that in response to questioning how a game mechanic that allowed anyone to be anything could be squared with lore. The point I was trying to make is the same as what you said: "non-mages being imbued with magic happens all the time in this setting." We agree, at least about the end result. I'm also saying the motivation is often to accommodate a gameplay design goal. You make a good point that the motivation may sometimes be to accommodate a narrative story goal as well. Dalish, Avvar and Korcari Wilds (which is to say, specifically Morrigan) are just additional examples of either mages not necessarily being born mages, or, mages who are not locked into a career of being a mage necessarily, the way the Circle/Chantry works. Each example only applies to one or the other clause, which I'm sure is self-explanatory. I see. I grant that mages could easily learn to be anything else, and would probably be better at most of it than one using strictly mundane means. Personally, I wish we'd met an elven assassin in a phylactery who could teach mages how to rogue. That'd be a hell of a thing. I'll also grant that a non-mage could gain some forms of magic, though it shouldn't stretch to being able to do anything a mage can. Even if your non-mage-born PC is drinking red lyrium cut with dragon blood and making bargains with spirits left and right while experimenting with equipment that's not so much enhanced with lyrium as composed of it, they're still unlikely to be quite as versatile as the real thing, since all of those are limited forms of power. The lyrium only grants you anti-magic, the dragon blood only grants you blood magic, and most spirits only have a limited set of powers. (And the ones that don't are probably too dangerous to bargain with.)
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Post by Entropy on Oct 1, 2016 11:07:39 GMT
"you are either born a mage, or you are not" I think it would be better to say that a person has a "magical ability" or not. Only when those with "magical ability" are taught to control and shape that ability into spells they become "mages". In DAO our exposition to mages was focused on how the Chantry deals with it, but now we know about Avvar, Dalish, Rivain seers, etc. which are much more flexible. Not only that, out of the three warrior specializations, two clearly imbue the warrior with "magic abilities"... I could argue about the third and even about the rogue class in its enterity, but since those don't have a lore explanation I will let them be as "the rule of cool triumphs all..." All this has only reinforced my idea that warrior, rogue, mage classes are way to contrived in a setting where magic is clearly everywhere, presents itself in various forms and anyone can use it at least in one of those forms. Add to that Solas revelations in Trespasser and I'm pretty positive that the only reason not everyone is born with "magical abilities" is the Veil...
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Post by patches on Oct 1, 2016 11:35:39 GMT
The notion that warriors can't be rogues and rogues can't be warriors seem to be just a gameplay dogma by now which is obviously not supported by any kind of reason NOR realism.There is no reason for a warrior to be unable to use stealth,poisons,traps or other kind of rogues related skills. Well guess that it doesn't matter at all for me i have always modded the game to fuse warriors and rogues exactly Like in the DKS saga of Divinity I agree that there's no in-world reason why warriors and rogues can't use each other's tricks, their choice of fighting style has nothing to do with whether they can set a trap or kick a wall but for gameplay reasons I think that two distinct classes are needed. Though they really should find a way to make Dwarf Mage a thing.
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Post by Prince on Oct 1, 2016 16:43:33 GMT
The notion that warriors can't be rogues and rogues can't be warriors seem to be just a gameplay dogma by now which is obviously not supported by any kind of reason NOR realism.There is no reason for a warrior to be unable to use stealth,poisons,traps or other kind of rogues related skills. Well guess that it doesn't matter at all for me i have always modded the game to fuse warriors and rogues exactly Like in the DKS saga of Divinity I agree that there's no in-world reason why warriors and rogues can't use each other's tricks, their choice of fighting style has nothing to do with whether they can set a trap or kick a wall but for gameplay reasons I think that two distinct classes are needed. Though they really should find a way to make Dwarf Mage a thing. The issues of this separation of class is especially evident in DAO were warriors can make poisons or create traps and use them,they however cannot detect traps nor they can disarm them even if they know how to create them.
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Post by opuspace on Oct 1, 2016 17:07:54 GMT
Add to that Solas revelations in Trespasser and I'm pretty positive that the only reason not everyone is born with "magical abilities" is the Veil... Wooooah, mind blown. I never thought of that before. That'd be an amazing twist if the writers had that planned.
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Post by phoray on Oct 1, 2016 18:09:11 GMT
"you are either born a mage, or you are not" I think it would be better to say that a person has a "magical ability" or not. Only when those with "magical ability" are taught to control and shape that ability into spells they become "mages". In DAO our exposition to mages was focused on how the Chantry deals with it, but now we know about Avvar, Dalish, Rivain seers, etc. which are much more flexible. Not only that, out of the three warrior specializations, two clearly imbue the warrior with "magic abilities"... I could argue about the third and even about the rogue class in its enterity, but since those don't have a lore explanation I will let them be as "the rule of cool triumphs all..." All this has only reinforced my idea that warrior, rogue, mage classes are way to contrived in a setting where magic is clearly everywhere, presents itself in various forms and anyone can use it at least in one of those forms. Add to that Solas revelations in Trespasser and I'm pretty positive that the only reason not everyone is born with "magical abilities" is the Veil... I guess there were still levels of ability, because otherwise, why would the elven slaves have stayed slaves?
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Post by oyabun on Oct 1, 2016 18:49:49 GMT
Add to that Solas revelations in Trespasser and I'm pretty positive that the only reason not everyone is born with "magical abilities" is the Veil... Wooooah, mind blown. I never thought of that before. That'd be an amazing twist if the writers had that planned. I recall that someone said that in Arlathan(sorry for my ignorance i don't know the name of the empire)not everyone was a mage.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Oct 1, 2016 19:24:14 GMT
Though they really should find a way to make Dwarf Mage a thing. That has already happened, or at least, was broadly hinted at, through the Descent DLC. Unless you mean as a playable character. Now that I think about it, it's obvious that's what you meant. My bad.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Oct 1, 2016 19:31:19 GMT
Add to that Solas revelations in Trespasser and I'm pretty positive that the only reason not everyone is born with "magical abilities" is the Veil... This is why I mentioned the Dalish in my reply above. I think we have a good basis to theorize that all elves, even Dalish, are born mages. The Veil interferes with that ability to such a drastic extent that the innate magical ability of most elves is inoperative. I recall that someone said that in Arlathan(sorry for my ignorance i don't know the name of the empire)not everyone was a mage. Yes, but what does "mage" mean in that context? Certainly not what is meant by the Circle/Chantry. Is that a social classification? Genetic? Does it describe innate ability or a chosen career? I'm sure that not every denizen of Arlathan was walking around with a staff casting spells, but that doesn't mean that they couldn't if they were allowed to. Elvhenan was an oppressive society. I'm sure we'll learn more about what was innately possible, but what was forbidden by societal norms.
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Post by Entropy on Oct 1, 2016 20:39:01 GMT
I guess there were still levels of ability, because otherwise, why would the elven slaves have stayed slaves? That is my assumption as well. Gameplay wise we know that a mage must focus on magic and willpower attributes, and those get applied to a set formula. This means that gameplay wise all mages with the same number of points in those attributes will do the same damage when using a specific spell. But if we look at it from the perspective of a "real world", that changes. In our world there are people that are better than others at doing certain things, sometimes is because they put more effort into mastering a skill, sometimes because their brains roll that way... We can assume this is also true in Thedas outside of gameplay, Jowan is an example of this. I recall that someone said that in Arlathan(sorry for my ignorance i don't know the name of the empire)not everyone was a mage. I wrote "magical abilities" on purpose. Templars and Reavers have "magical abilities" but are not mages...
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Post by oyabun on Oct 1, 2016 21:51:00 GMT
Add to that Solas revelations in Trespasser and I'm pretty positive that the only reason not everyone is born with "magical abilities" is the Veil... This is why I mentioned the Dalish in my reply above. I think we have a good basis to theorize that all elves, even Dalish, are born mages. The Veil interferes with that ability to such a drastic extent that the innate magical ability of most elves is inoperative. I recall that someone said that in Arlathan(sorry for my ignorance i don't know the name of the empire)not everyone was a mage. Yes, but what does "mage" mean in that context? Certainly not what is meant by the Circle/Chantry. Is that a social classification? Genetic? Does it describe innate ability or a chosen career? I'm sure that not every denizen of Arlathan was walking around with a staff casting spells, but that doesn't mean that they couldn't if they were allowed to. Elvhenan was an oppressive society. I'm sure we'll learn more about what was innately possible, but what was forbidden by societal norms. Elvenhan was a society that endured for several thousands of years and that wasn't always ruled by Evanuris(they came later after their rise to power)is unwise to say what kind of society it was without any data about it other than two three line of dialogues from some NPC. Being a mage is always about the same priciples,those who dream better are mages that's it.
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Post by Entropy on Oct 2, 2016 12:21:28 GMT
That's only half the truth. Except dwarves, everybody can enter the Fade while they sleep but only mages remain conscious, aware of their surroundings.
You can call that "dreaming better", but in Trespasser Solas clearly states that creating the Veil "cut peoples conscious connection to the Fade". If being conscious in the Fade is the only requirement to be a mage, then Solas just said that everybody was before he raised the Veil.
I personally think that there is more to it than that...
In Crestwood you can run into a spirit that is disgruntled because the world won't obey it. "I order the rocks to part, but they do not. I bid the sky to draw close, and it stays still!"
It was already hinted in DAO and there are other hints in DAI and Trespasser. A "mage" is some one that is able to bend the Fade to his/her will.
Sorry for derailing the thread
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Post by Dabrikishaw on Oct 2, 2016 16:41:16 GMT
There will never be a good reason to remove a player class, never.
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