inherit
Resident Diplomat
526
0
8,896
Natashina
In lurking mode, playing the ME games.
2,340
August 2016
natashina
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights
16,553
19,139
|
Post by Natashina on Dec 3, 2016 3:43:03 GMT
First off, I wasn't accusing you of anything. Relax. This is a debate about the lore of a video game. It's meant to be friendly on my part and no offense was meant. I assume you can read but I wasn't sure if you'd seen that bit of codex for yourself. I wasn't trying to be rude, only trying to provide a source for midnight's statement. Nothing more, nothing less.
Secondly, it says right there in that Canticle that the Maker was unhappy with His creations in the Fade. Since they are talking about the Maker in this context, the line "Fade separated from sky" is supposed to mean that the Veil was the Maker's creation. You can spin that however you wish, but the truth is that the Chantry claims the Maker created the Veil. Remember, according to the Chantry the Maker created [everything. The sea, the sky, the Veil, living creatures, all of it.
I also know the rest of the lore you've mentioned. Never did I say the Chantry has the right answer, only it was the one that the Chantry gave. Arlathan fell long before the Chantry got started and much of the human civilization was built based off of elven magic and elven lore. A human-centric religion is going to take the story of Fen'Harel and use it to strengthen their own religion. They aren't going to say, "Oh, an ancient elven god separated the real world from the world of dreams." They will say that their One True God made everything. That's religions for ya.
Personally, I think that Fen'Harel did indeed create the Veil. Not the Maker. Besides, according to the offical timeline, Arlathan was founded 3000 years before humans even showed up in Thedas. The Veil was erected sometime after that. Either the Chantry left out any history of the time before the Veil (not the first time they've intentionally left something out) or it's something that didn't affect most humans very much.
|
|
xerrai
N3
Posts: 842 Likes: 1,156
inherit
1451
0
1,156
xerrai
842
September 2016
xerrai
|
Post by xerrai on Dec 3, 2016 3:55:14 GMT
There are plenty of things I'm unable to do but read is not one of them,again where it is stated in that canticle that the Maker created the veil?Because the part you adressed states he separated the fade from the world, even in the times of Arlathan they were not the same thing in fact the ancient elves required deep meditations to reach the deepest corners of the fade to search for powerful spirits,which is most likely what Mythal did to find Solas. The fade was never totally merged with the world even when Elgar nan and company ruled Thedas and even before they were even born. She's most likely referring to the canticle around here: And He knew he had wrought amiss. So the Maker turned from his firstborn And took from the Fade A measure of its living flesh And placed it apart from the Spirits, and spoke to it, saying: Here, I decree Opposition in all things: For earth, sky For winter, summer For darkness, Light. By My Will alone is Balance sundered
And the world given new life. And no longer was it formless, ever-changing, But held fast, immutable,
With Words for heaven and for earth, sea and sky. At last did the Maker From the living world
Make men. Immutable, as the substance of the earth, With souls made of dream and idea, hope and fear, Endless possibilities. Now it important to remember that the Chant prior to this was basically about how the Maker created spirits in the Fade. And how they failed to create anything new which is why the Maker chose to create this division in the universe. Or how he has had "Balance sundered". Most Chantry interpretations say that this is the part of the Chant that describes the Maker's creating of the veil. And it seems to make sense. This part of the Chant describes how the maker made a place separate from spirits, and how this 'new place' was immutable and no longer ever changing like the place where the spirits and golden city dwelled.
|
|
midnight tea
Twitter Guru
gateway beverage
Posts: 7,093 Likes: 16,583
inherit
gateway beverage
109
0
16,583
midnight tea
7,093
August 2016
midnighttea
|
Post by midnight tea on Dec 3, 2016 19:46:53 GMT
There are plenty of things I'm unable to do but read is not one of them,again where it is stated in that canticle that the Maker created the veil?Because the part you adressed states he separated the fade from the world, even in the times of Arlathan they were not the same thing in fact the ancient elves required deep meditations to reach the deepest corners of the fade to search for powerful spirits,which is most likely what Mythal did to find Solas. The fade was never totally merged with the world even when Elgar nan and company ruled Thedas and even before they were even born. I don't want to get into reading comprehension back-and-forth, but I think in this particular case you have little ground to stand on. As it was already pointed out, the Canticles and Chantry do indeed state that the Veil is Maker's creation - not even an indirect one: he is claimed to be responsible for separating world from the Fade. It is Chantry's official position. Also - you're basically guilty of 'switching the goalpost' fallacy; you're trying to claim that even at times of Evanuris the world and Fade were separate. That has no bearing to point that people claim (erroneously) that Veil is Maker's creation. Plus: just because elves required deep meditation to enter deepest recesses of the Fade in times of Elvenhan, doesn't mean that the Fade and real world were separate. We don't have such force/element IRL hence it's difficult to compare it to anything, but considering how deeply the Veil and *actual* separation of Fade form the world has affected Thedas, Elvenhan and elves/people, I don't think anyone in right mind would say that Veiled world is not that different from Veilless one, or that actions of Solas and creation of the Veil didn't affect the world on fundamental level.
|
|
inherit
1836
0
221
doflamingodonquijote
440
Oct 22, 2016 22:16:46 GMT
October 2016
doflamingodonquijote
|
Post by doflamingodonquijote on Dec 3, 2016 22:50:43 GMT
There are plenty of things I'm unable to do but read is not one of them,again where it is stated in that canticle that the Maker created the veil?Because the part you adressed states he separated the fade from the world, even in the times of Arlathan they were not the same thing in fact the ancient elves required deep meditations to reach the deepest corners of the fade to search for powerful spirits,which is most likely what Mythal did to find Solas. The fade was never totally merged with the world even when Elgar nan and company ruled Thedas and even before they were even born. I don't want to get into reading comprehension back-and-forth, but I think in this particular case you have little ground to stand on. As it was already pointed out, the Canticles and Chantry do indeed state that the Veil is Maker's creation - not even an indirect one: he is claimed to be responsible for separating world from the Fade. It is Chantry's official position. Also - you're basically guilty of 'switching the goalpost' fallacy; you're trying to claim that even at times of Evanuris the world and Fade were separate. That has no bearing to point that people claim (erroneously) that Veil is Maker's creation. Plus: just because elves required deep meditation to enter deepest recesses of the Fade in times of Elvenhan, doesn't mean that the Fade and real world were separate. We don't have such force/element IRL hence it's difficult to compare it to anything, but considering how deeply the Veil and *actual* separation of Fade form the world has affected Thedas, Elvenhan and elves/people, I don't think anyone in right mind would say that Veiled world is not that different from Veilless one, or that actions of Solas and creation of the Veil didn't affect the world on fundamental level. The canticles and the Chantry never said the Maker created the veil the word itself doesn't exist within the chant of light. And since you don't even know what the world was when there was no veil you don't know to what kind of degree the fade influenced the world.
|
|
oyabun
N3
Posts: 374 Likes: 214
inherit
1613
0
Aug 15, 2018 12:36:15 GMT
214
oyabun
374
Sept 17, 2016 22:36:29 GMT
September 2016
oyabun
|
Post by oyabun on Dec 3, 2016 23:15:20 GMT
There are plenty of things I'm unable to do but read is not one of them,again where it is stated in that canticle that the Maker created the veil?Because the part you adressed states he separated the fade from the world, even in the times of Arlathan they were not the same thing in fact the ancient elves required deep meditations to reach the deepest corners of the fade to search for powerful spirits,which is most likely what Mythal did to find Solas. The fade was never totally merged with the world even when Elgar nan and company ruled Thedas and even before they were even born. She's most likely referring to the canticle around here: And He knew he had wrought amiss. So the Maker turned from his firstborn And took from the Fade A measure of its living flesh And placed it apart from the Spirits, and spoke to it, saying: Here, I decree Opposition in all things: For earth, sky For winter, summer For darkness, Light. By My Will alone is Balance sundered
And the world given new life. And no longer was it formless, ever-changing, But held fast, immutable,
With Words for heaven and for earth, sea and sky. At last did the Maker From the living world
Make men. Immutable, as the substance of the earth, With souls made of dream and idea, hope and fear, Endless possibilities. Now it important to remember that the Chant prior to this was basically about how the Maker created spirits in the Fade. And how they failed to create anything new which is why the Maker chose to create this division in the universe. Or how he has had "Balance sundered". Most Chantry interpretations say that this is the part of the Chant that describes the Maker's creating of the veil. And it seems to make sense. This part of the Chant describes how the maker made a place separate from spirits, and how this 'new place' was immutable and no longer ever changing like the place where the spirits and golden city dwelled. I would be extremely careful when it comes to make an attempt to try to deconstruct via interpretation the chant of light,i don't think the writers made it with the intention of it to be inherently false.Everything is an allegory there( the 7 magisters,the black city and the old gods being the only exception) These passages as a whole seem to me just an allegory to try to explain the differences between the characteristics of the fade and of the physical world,but the word veil in itself is never used here.I dunno when this part of the chant was wrote probably in a time where scholars didn't yet figured out the existence of the veil.
|
|
akiza
N2
Posts: 67 Likes: 119
inherit
2213
0
119
akiza
67
Nov 30, 2016 11:24:13 GMT
November 2016
akiza
|
Post by akiza on Dec 3, 2016 23:52:16 GMT
It would have been nice if Bioware had decided whether the Fade was psychological or physical... now that it's both it's as cohesive as the Matrix movies. I don't believe Bioware knows for sure what they want the Fade to be.
|
|
midnight tea
Twitter Guru
gateway beverage
Posts: 7,093 Likes: 16,583
inherit
gateway beverage
109
0
16,583
midnight tea
7,093
August 2016
midnighttea
|
Post by midnight tea on Dec 4, 2016 0:00:04 GMT
I don't want to get into reading comprehension back-and-forth, but I think in this particular case you have little ground to stand on. As it was already pointed out, the Canticles and Chantry do indeed state that the Veil is Maker's creation - not even an indirect one: he is claimed to be responsible for separating world from the Fade. It is Chantry's official position. Also - you're basically guilty of 'switching the goalpost' fallacy; you're trying to claim that even at times of Evanuris the world and Fade were separate. That has no bearing to point that people claim (erroneously) that Veil is Maker's creation. Plus: just because elves required deep meditation to enter deepest recesses of the Fade in times of Elvenhan, doesn't mean that the Fade and real world were separate. We don't have such force/element IRL hence it's difficult to compare it to anything, but considering how deeply the Veil and *actual* separation of Fade form the world has affected Thedas, Elvenhan and elves/people, I don't think anyone in right mind would say that Veiled world is not that different from Veilless one, or that actions of Solas and creation of the Veil didn't affect the world on fundamental level. The canticles and the Chantry never said the Maker created the veil the word itself doesn't exist within the chant of light. And since you don't even know what the world was when there was no veil you don't know to what kind of degree the fade influenced the world. You're splitting hair now in order to try and win an argument. I'm sorry, it doesn't work that way - the Canticle doesn't have to mention the Veil by name, because everyone knows what is it that separates the Fade and the world. And hey - guess what: it's the Veil. The implication is enough to know what the Canticle is talking about, because there's no dispute what is it that separates the Fade and the world. And yes - we have a pretty good idea how the world look before thanks to places like Vir Dirthara and records in it. You can't be serious in saying that records like Signs Of Victory or Raising the Sonallium, or in fact almost any codex from Shattered Library don't show tremendous differences between Veiled and Veilless world The last memories of elves who died when the Veil was raised - like the one who plummeted to his/her death when the ground suddenly disappeared from under them, as well as state of Vir Dirthara - only support claims of Solas that countless places were immediately affected and ultimately destroyed by sudden lack of presence of the Fade, which they were intrinsically connected to. That and there's of course the issue of elvhen immortality/longevity, which appears to be directly tied to rising of the Veil, as well as presence of Evanuris, who had fallen silent the moment the Veil was up. If that's not a huge difference between Veiled and Veilless world, I don't know what is.
|
|
midnight tea
Twitter Guru
gateway beverage
Posts: 7,093 Likes: 16,583
inherit
gateway beverage
109
0
16,583
midnight tea
7,093
August 2016
midnighttea
|
Post by midnight tea on Dec 4, 2016 0:12:44 GMT
It would have been nice if Bioware had decided whether the Fade was psychological or physical... now that it's both it's as cohesive as the Matrix movies. I don't believe Bioware knows for sure what they want the Fade to be. I think you're fundamentally confused with what Bioware wants to achieve with the story. The point is that ultimately there's no significant distinction between material and immaterial, at least in the world without the Veil. Fade/magic in Thedas is literally the power to materialize the immaterial or directly affect the matter through things we consider as immaterial (namely: willpower, emotions, concepts, ideas). That's the major difference between Thedas and IRL world - the Fade is (or at the very least: appears to be) a natural phenomenon that is basically the fifth fundamental force of nature. We only have 4 (as of now). For us ideas stay immaterial (well, unless until we manage to break that barrier with future inventions and discoveries in the field of, say, virtual or augmented reality). For Thedosians... it simply isn't like that. For them their imagination and willpower is a real, palpable power that can affect the world in a direct manner, even to a point that it overrides other forces of nature.
|
|
inherit
2220
0
Dec 17, 2022 14:24:44 GMT
413
ellehaym
244
Nov 30, 2016 22:25:30 GMT
November 2016
ellehaym
|
Post by ellehaym on Dec 4, 2016 0:19:36 GMT
I think no matter what happends, Solas will end up dying anyways. There's so much we don't know about how the world was. In either case, there are powers greater than Solas.
|
|
xerrai
N3
Posts: 842 Likes: 1,156
inherit
1451
0
1,156
xerrai
842
September 2016
xerrai
|
Post by xerrai on Dec 4, 2016 1:14:48 GMT
She's most likely referring to the canticle around here: And He knew he had wrought amiss. So the Maker turned from his firstborn And took from the Fade A measure of its living flesh And placed it apart from the Spirits, and spoke to it, saying: Here, I decree Opposition in all things: For earth, sky For winter, summer For darkness, Light. By My Will alone is Balance sundered
And the world given new life. And no longer was it formless, ever-changing, But held fast, immutable,
With Words for heaven and for earth, sea and sky. At last did the Maker From the living world
Make men. Immutable, as the substance of the earth, With souls made of dream and idea, hope and fear, Endless possibilities. Now it important to remember that the Chant prior to this was basically about how the Maker created spirits in the Fade. And how they failed to create anything new which is why the Maker chose to create this division in the universe. Or how he has had "Balance sundered". Most Chantry interpretations say that this is the part of the Chant that describes the Maker's creating of the veil. And it seems to make sense. This part of the Chant describes how the maker made a place separate from spirits, and how this 'new place' was immutable and no longer ever changing like the place where the spirits and golden city dwelled. I would be extremely careful when it comes to make an attempt to try to deconstruct via interpretation the chant of light,i don't think the writers made it with the intention of it to be inherently false.Everything is an allegory there( the 7 magisters,the black city and the old gods being the only exception) These passages as a whole seem to me just an allegory to try to explain the differences between the characteristics of the fade and of the physical world,but the word veil in itself is never used here.I dunno when this part of the chant was wrote probably in a time where scholars didn't yet figured out the existence of the veil. Yeah I know, that post was mostly to clarify a prior post. But the problem with trying to determine allegory from historic interpretation and legend is that it is oftentimes impossible to fully differentiate one from the other. Especially in a text like the Chant of Light which uses rather specific language. But just because the word "veil' is not used does not mean that no text can refer to it without using that word. That would be like saying the ancient elves didn't know about the Fade because they used the phrase "the world that dreams" or "the sky", or the dwarves know nothing of the fade because they always referred to it as the "world above". When it comes to things like this we don't look for specific words all the time, we look for words or phrases that possibly only exist in certain time periods (or in this case, whatever may predates the term "veil") that would depend on the cultural context of the time. Though to answer your question. The Canticle of Threnodies (or at least, the early versions of it) was created around -31 and -11 Ancient by the first Divine (Justinia I). But some believe that the canticle was based off an older oral tradition that could go as far back as -182 Ancient. Most likely based on several cultures that each interpreted Andraste's visions a bit differently. Make of that what you will.
|
|
EBDerevko
N1
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 10 Likes: 27
inherit
1866
0
Oct 30, 2016 15:22:42 GMT
27
EBDerevko
10
Oct 27, 2016 17:06:07 GMT
October 2016
ebderevko
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by EBDerevko on Dec 4, 2016 21:37:37 GMT
It would have been nice if Bioware had decided whether the Fade was psychological or physical... now that it's both it's as cohesive as the Matrix movies. I don't believe Bioware knows for sure what they want the Fade to be. I think it might be both and, now that I think of it, I remember those talks with the spirit impersonating Justinia in the Fade during Here Lies the Abyss, and plenty of the things it said seemed to trace parallels with the psychological theories of the unconscious (especially references to things being locked there to protect people from themselves and keep them "sane," though it could be just about that specific part of the Fade which was controlled by the Fear demon). I'm not an expert in the subject, and I can't seem to find any transcripts or videos showing exactly what I'm referring to here, but if you go through that mission again and take all possible chances to speak to the spirit, you'll see exactly what I mean.
|
|
Croatsky
N4
Amateur Reporter
Old BSN veteran, I guess.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: CroGamer002
Posts: 1,987 Likes: 4,357
inherit
Amateur Reporter
2287
0
Apr 23, 2024 13:00:16 GMT
4,357
Croatsky
Old BSN veteran, I guess.
1,987
December 2016
croatsky
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
CroGamer002
|
Post by Croatsky on Dec 4, 2016 22:03:20 GMT
Redeem.
My Inquisitor, The Herald of Andraste, First-Thaw, Constantine Trevelyan is deeply religious man. He deeply believes in redemption and he believes his dear friend Solas can be saved from his dark path. Also he wants to end that war with Solas with little bloodshed as possible, proving to him that the world of Thedas is worth saving and keeping.
|
|
xerrai
N3
Posts: 842 Likes: 1,156
inherit
1451
0
1,156
xerrai
842
September 2016
xerrai
|
Post by xerrai on Dec 4, 2016 22:38:58 GMT
It would have been nice if Bioware had decided whether the Fade was psychological or physical... now that it's both it's as cohesive as the Matrix movies. I don't believe Bioware knows for sure what they want the Fade to be. I think you're fundamentally confused with what Bioware wants to achieve with the story. The point is that ultimately there's no significant distinction between material and immaterial, at least in the world without the Veil. Fade/magic in Thedas is literally the power to materialize the immaterial or directly affect the matter through things we consider as immaterial (namely: willpower, emotions, concepts, ideas). That's the major difference between Thedas and IRL world - the Fade is (or at the very least: appears to be) a natural phenomenon that is basically the fifth fundamental force of nature. We only have 4 (as of now). For us ideas stay immaterial (well, unless until we manage to break that barrier with future inventions and discoveries in the field of, say, virtual or augmented reality). For Thedosians... it simply isn't like that. For them their imagination and willpower is a real, palpable power that can affect the world in a direct manner, even to a point that it overrides other forces of nature. Well I wouldn't go that far. It may be a theme that they want to explore, particularly now that we know the fade and Thedas were once merged. But the idea that "there is no significant distinction between material and immaterial" has not been too solidified yet. Especially in a setting like modern Thedas where the differences between material and immaterial is emphasized and encouraged by the veil and the societies that developed after its incorporation into the world.
|
|
midnight tea
Twitter Guru
gateway beverage
Posts: 7,093 Likes: 16,583
inherit
gateway beverage
109
0
16,583
midnight tea
7,093
August 2016
midnighttea
|
Post by midnight tea on Dec 4, 2016 23:25:14 GMT
I think you're fundamentally confused with what Bioware wants to achieve with the story. The point is that ultimately there's no significant distinction between material and immaterial, at least in the world without the Veil. Fade/magic in Thedas is literally the power to materialize the immaterial or directly affect the matter through things we consider as immaterial (namely: willpower, emotions, concepts, ideas). That's the major difference between Thedas and IRL world - the Fade is (or at the very least: appears to be) a natural phenomenon that is basically the fifth fundamental force of nature. We only have 4 (as of now). For us ideas stay immaterial (well, unless until we manage to break that barrier with future inventions and discoveries in the field of, say, virtual or augmented reality). For Thedosians... it simply isn't like that. For them their imagination and willpower is a real, palpable power that can affect the world in a direct manner, even to a point that it overrides other forces of nature. Well I wouldn't go that far. It may be a theme that they want to explore, particularly now that we know the fade and Thedas were once merged. But the idea that "there is no significant distinction between material and immaterial" has not been too solidified yet. Especially in a setting like modern Thedas where the differences between material and immaterial is emphasized and encouraged by the veil and the societies that developed after its incorporation into the world. Yes, but the main reason there's a distinction between material and immaterial appears to be the barrier that keeps these two things apart: the Veil... which we now know is an artificial construct Cole in Trespasser even called "fake" and "fabricated to forbid". So even if people in modern Thedas claim there's a distinction between immaterial and material, it seems to be predominantly a result of them believing in it. Which, if you think about it, is quite ironic ... but also in sync with what we know about the nature of Thedas now, where more and more indicates that the major force shaping the realm is power of will/belief.
|
|
inherit
1836
0
221
doflamingodonquijote
440
Oct 22, 2016 22:16:46 GMT
October 2016
doflamingodonquijote
|
Post by doflamingodonquijote on Dec 5, 2016 1:08:20 GMT
Not everything in the chant of light is an allegory,in order to disprove it you have only to prove that the black city isn't the former domain of the Maker but is something else(a dead titan,the remains of Arlathan,ecc..)
|
|
midnight tea
Twitter Guru
gateway beverage
Posts: 7,093 Likes: 16,583
inherit
gateway beverage
109
0
16,583
midnight tea
7,093
August 2016
midnighttea
|
Post by midnight tea on Dec 5, 2016 2:02:02 GMT
Not everything in the chant of light is an allegory,in order to disprove it you have only to prove that the black city isn't the former domain of the Maker but is something else(a dead titan,the remains of Arlathan,ecc..) Er... what does it have to do with the thing we've discussed? And why would it matter whether we'd prove the Chant was wrong about Black City or not? We already know that the Chant was wrong in places - it ascribed the creation of the Veil to the Maker, instead of Fen'Harel, and gave different reasons as to why it was created. And no, that was not allegoric - majority of Andrastians believe that Maker creating the Veil really happened. As they do a lot of other things - they're at a point of believing that most of things described in the Chant are literal and not symbolic. You know... kinda like we did with the Bible till not that long ago. The whole 'most of sacred text is an allegory' approach is a fairly modern thing, after it failed to withstand historical and scientific scrutiny. All in all, your point seems to be moot (and all over the place).
|
|
inherit
1836
0
221
doflamingodonquijote
440
Oct 22, 2016 22:16:46 GMT
October 2016
doflamingodonquijote
|
Post by doflamingodonquijote on Dec 5, 2016 5:19:11 GMT
Not everything in the chant of light is an allegory,in order to disprove it you have only to prove that the black city isn't the former domain of the Maker but is something else(a dead titan,the remains of Arlathan,ecc..) Er... what does it have to do with the thing we've discussed? And why would it matter whether we'd prove the Chant was wrong about Black City or not? We already know that the Chant was wrong in places - it ascribed the creation of the Veil to the Maker, instead of Fen'Harel, and gave different reasons as to why it was created. And no, that was not allegoric - majority of Andrastians believe that Maker creating the Veil really happened. As they do a lot of other things - they're at a point of believing that most of things described in the Chant are literal and not symbolic. You know... kinda like we did with the Bible till not that long ago. The whole 'most of sacred text is an allegory' approach is a fairly modern thing, after it failed to withstand historical and scientific scrutiny. All in all, your point seems to be moot (and all over the place). My last post was directed to oyabun so take a deep breath and calm down you ain't the only person here. Disprove the Origin of the Black city as the former Golden city and domain of the Maker will deconstruct the entire Chant of light which isn't as far as I'm concerned totally disproved yet,so yes it does matter. The rest of your post is just your own personal vision of a comparision between two different things(The bible&The chant)that have very little in common which is indeed more "all over the place" than anything I've said..
|
|
midnight tea
Twitter Guru
gateway beverage
Posts: 7,093 Likes: 16,583
inherit
gateway beverage
109
0
16,583
midnight tea
7,093
August 2016
midnighttea
|
Post by midnight tea on Dec 5, 2016 12:27:45 GMT
Er... what does it have to do with the thing we've discussed? And why would it matter whether we'd prove the Chant was wrong about Black City or not? We already know that the Chant was wrong in places - it ascribed the creation of the Veil to the Maker, instead of Fen'Harel, and gave different reasons as to why it was created. And no, that was not allegoric - majority of Andrastians believe that Maker creating the Veil really happened. As they do a lot of other things - they're at a point of believing that most of things described in the Chant are literal and not symbolic. You know... kinda like we did with the Bible till not that long ago. The whole 'most of sacred text is an allegory' approach is a fairly modern thing, after it failed to withstand historical and scientific scrutiny. All in all, your point seems to be moot (and all over the place). My last post was directed to oyabun so take a deep breath and calm down you ain't the only person here. This is exactly why we have quote function for. My point still stands though - your argument appears to be pretty much entirely disconnected from main course of discussion. See, that's what I'm talking about. A non-sequitur. Nobody here was focusing much on the veracity of Chant Of Light - we were all still talking about the context of Chantry claiming the Veil was crated by the Maker. A claim that was pretty much entirely debunked by Trespasser, putting into question many others of its claims. So why should we focus on 'deconstruction' of Chant as of now? That was NOT the point. Right... except you were talking about allegory and literal interpretation, which is the exact thing I've focused on and the only consistent point in that particular exchange. Also - you can talk at length about "my interpretation" with Sister Giselle, who will basically tell you that most folk in Thedas will NOT view either Chant or recent events through the lens of metaphor.
|
|
oyabun
N3
Posts: 374 Likes: 214
inherit
1613
0
Aug 15, 2018 12:36:15 GMT
214
oyabun
374
Sept 17, 2016 22:36:29 GMT
September 2016
oyabun
|
Post by oyabun on Dec 6, 2016 2:57:10 GMT
Not everything in the chant of light is an allegory,in order to disprove it you have only to prove that the black city isn't the former domain of the Maker but is something else(a dead titan,the remains of Arlathan,ecc..) Of course i know,elements like the old gods,magisters and the Black city are for them litteral beings and places,there is no such equivalent in the Bible.Their Maker is a male god and created the former golden city and spirits but Not the others gods,I don't think that BioWare will ever reveal what the Black city is to my knowledge Solas never said anything about that place,NOR he said the Maker of the chant of light is false,quite the opposite he liked that kind of God,for all we know it is still possibile that the city has nothing to do with elves and is not Arlathan.Saying that the Black city is Arlathan or whatever will totally disrupt the chant of light to the point where it would disprove the Maker,but the writers said long ago that they don't have any desire to disprove the Maker.
|
|
midnight tea
Twitter Guru
gateway beverage
Posts: 7,093 Likes: 16,583
inherit
gateway beverage
109
0
16,583
midnight tea
7,093
August 2016
midnighttea
|
Post by midnight tea on Dec 6, 2016 3:35:49 GMT
Not everything in the chant of light is an allegory,in order to disprove it you have only to prove that the black city isn't the former domain of the Maker but is something else(a dead titan,the remains of Arlathan,ecc..) Of course i know,elements like the old gods,magisters and the Black city are for them litteral beings and places,there is no such equivalent in the Bible.Their Maker is a male god and created the former golden city and spirits but Not the others gods,I don't think that BioWare will ever reveal what the Black city is to my knowledge Solas never said anything about that place,NOR he said the Maker of the chant of light is false,quite the opposite he liked that kind of God,for all we know it is still possibile that the city has nothing to do with elves and is not Arlathan.Saying that the Black city is Arlathan or whatever will totally disrupt the chant of light to the point where it would disprove the Maker,but the writers said long ago that they don't have any desire to disprove the Maker. The idea of the Maker will easily outlive the Chants and claims of the Chantry. Same thing happened to Biblical God. It may however that the nature of Maker will change over time... or change depending what we'd learn about the past. After all, paraphrasing Morrigan here, what is god other than someone with great power? Also - Solas may have not mentioned anything specific about the Black City, but he did throw a hint once you take him to the Fade under Adamant: he's at first mesmerized and flabbergasted by the fact that they survived their trip into the Fade, only to immediately fix his eyes on the City and go "Look, the Black City... almost close enough to touch". That's not much, but the wistfulness in his voice suggests interests he has in reaching Black City. It is also significant that even in Chantry imaginings the Black/Golden city has fairly distinct gothic elvhen architecture... Also, this: This is Solas' mural. And while there's a lot of speculation about what exactly it depicts, the circle and structure at the centre is generally considered to be Golden/Black City. What is interesting is that Solas depicts the Sun surrounded by black-red peacock feathers. Where do we see such black-red peacock feathers? In the intro to DAO actually - exactly when the narrator mentions magisters entering Black City and turning to darkspawn (0:49): Seems like a small detail, but again, it's significant, because the black-red peacock feathers appear to be associated strictly with what is inside of the Golden/Black City (also, I'd like to point out at the imagery of the sun... can't be a coincidence that Chantry's symbol is a sunburst). Ergo - we may not be sure about the origins of the Black City, but Solas sure as hell knows something about it. Also - Solas likes idea of a god who doesn't have to prove their godhood. That doesn't necessarily means that he believes that Maker exists - or at the very least the "Maker" that actually exists has much to do with how Chantry views him...
|
|
Aren
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 75 Likes: 192
inherit
1887
0
192
Aren
75
Oct 29, 2016 23:09:57 GMT
October 2016
arenblack
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
|
Post by Aren on Dec 9, 2016 19:01:31 GMT
It would have been nice if Bioware had decided whether the Fade was psychological or physical... now that it's both it's as cohesive as the Matrix movies. I don't believe Bioware knows for sure what they want the Fade to be. I think you're fundamentally confused with what Bioware wants to achieve with the story. The point is that ultimately there's no significant distinction between material and immaterial, at least in the world without the Veil. There is no point in bringing that far a mere speculation,the Black city(that is in the fade) is solid and can't be shaped by thoughts. Dwarves seem to be detached from the fade they talk about the "Stone",their souls seem to be tied with the stone and (at least of what i know of)is not connected to the fade.
|
|
midnight tea
Twitter Guru
gateway beverage
Posts: 7,093 Likes: 16,583
inherit
gateway beverage
109
0
16,583
midnight tea
7,093
August 2016
midnighttea
|
Post by midnight tea on Dec 9, 2016 21:33:59 GMT
I think you're fundamentally confused with what Bioware wants to achieve with the story. The point is that ultimately there's no significant distinction between material and immaterial, at least in the world without the Veil. There is no point in bringing that far a mere speculation,the Black city(that is in the fade) is solid and can't be shaped by thoughts. Dwarves seem to be detached from the fade they talk about the "Stone",their souls seem to be tied with the stone and (at least of what i know of)is not connected to the fade. Okay, so... you're saying that there's no point bringing mere speculation, only to bring massive speculation to the table the very next moment? There's absolutely no evidence that the Black City is "solid and can't be shaped by thoughts". None. Whatsoever. In fact, history knows a moment in time when City did indeed changed a tiny bit. You know - when it changed from Gold to Black and began spewing the Blight? The fact that modern Thedosians see Black City always, from every corner of the Fade, doesn't make it any more solid or unchangeable than the Veil or the earth under their feet. And we already know that the former is an artificial construct created by Solas, while the latter can be shaped by Titans. And yes - Titans are connected with the Fade, just like they're connected with the Stone and dwarves. Dagna says it to us herself - lyrium (which is Titan's blood) is linked to the Fade. And Dwarves are intrinsically connected to Titans, ergo - Dwarves are also connected in some way to the Fade; or at the very least were, but something has tampered with that connection and the story keeps massive throwing hints that Dwarves are a far echo of what they were before.
|
|
Aren
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 75 Likes: 192
inherit
1887
0
192
Aren
75
Oct 29, 2016 23:09:57 GMT
October 2016
arenblack
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
|
Post by Aren on Dec 10, 2016 1:09:36 GMT
There is no point in bringing that far a mere speculation,the Black city(that is in the fade) is solid and can't be shaped by thoughts. Dwarves seem to be detached from the fade they talk about the "Stone",their souls seem to be tied with the stone and (at least of what i know of)is not connected to the fade. Okay, so... you're saying that there's no point bringing mere speculation, only to bring massive speculation to the table the very next moment? There's absolutely no evidence that the Black City is "solid and can't be shaped by thoughts". None. Whatsoever. In fact, history knows a moment in time when City did indeed changed a tiny bit. You know - when it changed from Gold to Black and began spewing the Blight? The fact that modern Thedosians see Black City always, from every corner of the Fade, doesn't make it any more solid or unchangeable than the Veil or the earth under their feet. And we already know that the former is an artificial construct created by Solas, while the latter can be shaped by Titans. And yes - Titans are connected with the Fade, just like they're connected with the Stone and dwarves. Dagna says it to us herself - lyrium (which is Titan's blood) is linked to the Fade. And Dwarves are intrinsically connected to Titans, ergo - Dwarves are also connected in some way to the Fade; or at the very least were, but something has tampered with that connection and the story keeps massive hints that Dwarves are a far echo of what they were before. As far as the lore is concerned there were not speculations in my previous post.According to Corypheus the Black city was Black and not golden when he went there,it didn't changed it was already like that,Modern dwarves don't dream and yet they are not emotion-less like the tranquils. Imply that the Titans are connected to the fade just because their lyrium amplify spells in the "real" world is a speculation,as we have no idea on how lyrium work.
|
|
Gilsa
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 557 Likes: 1,705
inherit
2359
0
1,705
Gilsa
557
December 2016
gilsa
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Gilsa on Dec 10, 2016 8:27:21 GMT
My original kneejerk reaction was to kill him because that was the dwarven people that were going to be wiped out and they already had it bad enough with their numbers dwindling to the darkspawn. And then I thought, "Wait. That's just my inner Lady Aeducan talking. Cadash wouldn't care as much." I liked Solas being flawed, I liked Solas saying several times that he realized he was wrong so there's real potential there to turn the car around at some point. And it's hard to justify why Cadash would give Blackwall a second chance, but not Solas. So that's how it went down. I did have to think about it though because I really could have gone either way.
|
|
inherit
1824
0
11,565
Tekehu's booty
Someday a cat will give me magical powers and I'll be married to a werewolf #goals #WerewolfLIforDA4
2,658
Oct 19, 2016 19:24:39 GMT
October 2016
nickclark89
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
|
Post by Tekehu's booty on Dec 10, 2016 11:47:03 GMT
I chose to redeem him because I like my Scooby Gang
|
|