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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Sept 25, 2017 14:29:17 GMT
How does Morrigan survive in Wh to the option of attack?
To be frank this is a question which I posed an year ago on the Bioware forum but I haven't received any satisfactory answer,so yea just want to know what others think about it.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2017 14:40:16 GMT
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Post by phoray on Sept 25, 2017 15:08:05 GMT
Doesn't she fall into the Eluvian and the Warden just walks off?
She has magic and is capable of self healing. Additionally, we don't understand the Cross Roads much and how a normal person would age, live, die, or whatever in there. I know in a book, it made non elves very uncomfortable. I know in game, people died there but that's game mechanics.
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Post by Kei on Sept 25, 2017 15:24:14 GMT
Player agency.Which is pretty much defined as the player's actions leading to the intended results.The player attacked her to kill her.
Some concession is made in agency for combat, just to make combat interesting and provide for a challenge. So you get rules that can arbitrate against agency. But this wasn't rules and game systems arbitrating for challenge and excitement, it was a writer arbitrating because that writer chose his outcome over the player's wishes. Which I don't think is cool, it just opens up all the classic DM abuse of invincible enemies and bad guys teleporting away at the last second then gloating about it. Oh hey!
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Post by phoray on Sept 25, 2017 15:27:24 GMT
KeiAnd if the Warden had stepped through the Eluvian, a murderous gleam in his eye, to ensure the death of the Evil Morrigan, then I would say it doesn't make sense that she survived. But she's been a companion the entire game, survival instinct intact, and a mage. And the Warden did NOT step through the Eluvian to see if his SINGLE stab wound finished her off.
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Post by oyabun on Sept 25, 2017 15:35:44 GMT
Short answer: Plot armor
Long answer: I agree with Key. Wh Hunt is a Dlc which I've never fully understood in terms of story coherence. For example,let's assume that a particular Warden decides to hunt Morrigan in WH with the purpose of killing her because they believe she might be a threat. My question is,why they are bothering to try to hunt her 2 years after the blight to kill her if they could have done that in Redclieffe rather than staring at her as she strolls out?
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Post by Kei on Sept 25, 2017 15:52:47 GMT
Doesn't she fall into the Eluvian and the Warden just walks off? She has magic and is capable of self healing. Additionally, we don't understand the Cross Roads much and how a normal person would age, live, die, or whatever in there. I know in a book, it made non elves very uncomfortable. I know in game, people died there but that's game mechanics. And if the Warden had stepped through the Eluvian, a murderous gleam in his eye, to ensure the death of the Evil Morrigan, then I would say it doesn't make sense that she survived. But she's been a companion the entire game, survival instinct intact, and a mage. And the Warden did NOT step through the Eluvian to see if his SINGLE stab wound finished her off. Morrigan is not an healer,she was unable to heal Genitivi through magic because Flemeth never taught her healing magic and that's why Gameplay-wise she has no healing specialization of her own,so that she is a mage is of no use for her in the given situation. Why the warden should just walk off if they have done all that road with the purpose of ensuring her death? What's more why the Warden refused to hit her on a vital spot of her body? One single stab in a vital spot is enough to kill any individual ,and the warden clearly had the chance to inflict such damage.
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Post by phoray on Sept 25, 2017 16:00:30 GMT
No idea of what you speak regarding Genetivi.
Still don't know how the cross roads work.
Because the Warden wanted her dead, but not badly enough to risk their own life to go through a weird doorway. It could have an auto kill feature built in for all the Warden knows.
*sigh* I'm already done with this convo. It seems to weird to argue something so unchangeable at this point. I can debate all day until I'm blue int he face that Morrigan could have survived. WE have no idea the stock pile of potions she may have waiting just on the other side.
You all who are against such very possible contingency plans are just going to cry about plot armor, making this conversation completely not fun and utterly uninteresting.
Have a good day.
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Post by Kei on Sept 25, 2017 16:14:31 GMT
No idea of what you speak regarding Genetivi. Still don't know how the cross roads work. Because the Warden wanted her dead, but not badly enough to risk their own life to go through a weird doorway. It could have an auto kill feature built in for all the Warden knows. *sigh* I'm already done with this convo. It seems to weird to argue something so unchangeable at this point. I can debate all day until I'm blue int he face that Morrigan could have survived. WE have no idea the stock pile of potions she may have waiting just on the other side. You all who are against such very possible contingency plans are just going to cry about plot armor, making this conversation completely not fun and utterly uninteresting. Have a good day. 1)I'm stating the simple fact that she admits by herself that she doesn't know healing magic when the Warden order her to heal Genitivi in Heaven,which prove that she is not an healer thus her magic is of no use to heal wounds. 2)How the Crossroads works is completely irrelevant to the topic being discussed.The only thing that matters is the eluvian,the portal of access to the Crossroads,which was perfectly functional and operative and could have been used also by the warden to finish her off. 3)What the warden wants to personally risk in order to accomplish whatever goal depends entirely on the player which is in control of them. Therefeore yours is a subjective argument,as there may be wardens eager to risk that,especially the US type of wardens who were eager to risk obliteration in Denerim. 4))Once again that she had potions (or whatever other contingency plan) is totally irrelevant as i've already repeated that warden could have crossed the mirror to completly finish her off or could have inflicted her a direct vital wound from whom there was no possibility of recovery,and your excuses of saying "oh warden is too afraid to risk to go through the portal" is SUBJECTIVE and therefore doesn't work for all Wardens. I'm done too with this argument too as I see no reason why I should change my position when i strongly see my stances as more choerent than those you've presented so far,. Have a good day as well,oh why I should lie,I don't care if you have a good day or not.
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Post by Prince on Sept 25, 2017 16:20:47 GMT
Clear,exhaustive,elegant and short. The perfect answer. It's not the greatest one she had I would add Lol,since that belongs to DAI if she drinks from the well of sorrow and then survives to a fall from the sky against the Red lyrium Dragon without any explanation. What the warden wants to personally risk in order to accomplish whatever goal depends entirely on the player which is in control of them. Therefeore yours is a subjective argument,as there may be wardens eager to risk that,especially the US type of wardens who were eager to risk obliteration in Denerim. Agree,if they risked death against the Archdemon,risking to walk through an eluvian is a walk on the park in comparison
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Post by akiza on Sept 25, 2017 16:37:24 GMT
shiny plot armor for writer's shrew pet.
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Post by hammerstorm on Sept 25, 2017 16:42:02 GMT
The same reason Leliana don't stay dead. The same reason Oghren don't stay dead. The Warden suck at killing people apparently. Wouldn't surprise me if The Warden failed to kill the Archdemon.
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Post by Hagoromo on Sept 25, 2017 16:57:35 GMT
Because the Warden wanted her dead, but not badly enough to risk their own life to go through a weird doorway. It could have an auto kill feature built in for all the Warden knows. If the eluvians were so dangerous,it makes no sense for Morrigan to want to try to cross them or to let her son to cross them in the first place.I just can't see why the Warden should risk anything more than what Morrigan is risking,and if she let a child to pass it( if it exist),that means that it is save for anyone to use it,even someone with bad purposes for her,but regardless even if what you stated was correct,some HoF or Orlesian wardens may determined enough to risk that. The same reason Leliana don't stay dead. The same reason Oghren don't stay dead. The Warden suck at killing people apparently. Wouldn't surprise me if The Warden failed to kill the Archdemon. I think you're generalizing way too much what are entirely different situations. Oghren and Leliana's death were retconned by the writers,so they did in fact happened in-screen and were canonized but that was circumvented by the writers later on,and that's very bad but it's very different from a plot armor.Plus I don't think the Warden is bad at killing as they pretty much may have killed thousands of beings by the end of Wh,including the soul of the old god if they denied the Dark ritual and destroyed it the GW way .
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Post by hammerstorm on Sept 25, 2017 17:29:38 GMT
The same reason Leliana don't stay dead. The same reason Oghren don't stay dead. The Warden suck at killing people apparently. Wouldn't surprise me if The Warden failed to kill the Archdemon. I think you're generalizing way too much what are entirely different situations. Oghren and Leliana's death were retconned by the writers,so they did in fact happened in-screen and were canonized but that was circumvented by the writers later on,and that's very bad but it's very different from a plot armor.Plus I don't think the Warden is bad at killing as they pretty much may have killed thousands of beings by the end of Wh,including the soul of the old god if they denied the Dark ritual and destroyed it the GW way . Way to take something to serious.... The reason she survived was because the warden didn't killed her. S/he failed to kill her. That simple. The Warden maybe thought she was killed, didn't wanted to risk step in a trap, feared that she was too strong when she didn't die at once, maybe the Warden was just waiting for her to come back from the mirror, maybe the warden didn't know what she had done to make the travel through a magic mirror safetly, maybe the Warden feel asleep for a moment, got distracted by all the loot or just bored of hunting her... Just choose a reason or sit and cry "plot armour". I don't really mind. Most Bioware game character have to much plot armour anyway. But as far as I know there is no Word of God that explain why she survived and not everyone will be happy about it anyway.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 25, 2017 17:41:16 GMT
There's is always an explanation, it depends only on intention...
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Post by Mark7 on Sept 25, 2017 17:50:03 GMT
I don't like Morrigan's character enough to buy her poorly developed Dlc,so i've renounced to murder-knife her for the noble cause of sparing my money.If and only If the Dlc had to offer her death,then I would had bought it,but the reality is that all it has to offer is a ludicrous quest of following her lead from there and up to 10 years(until trespasser)for no reason and regardless of your choice.
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Post by secretrare on Sept 25, 2017 18:12:00 GMT
She survived primarly because the writer responsible for WH decided what should have been the outcome for her,only in a videogame Gaider may hope to have such authority over others people.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 25, 2017 18:17:36 GMT
She survived primarly because the writer responsible for WH decided what should have been the outcome for her,only in a videogame Gaider may hope to have such authority over others people. David Gaider was the main villain! But he defeated by the good power! Thedas already in safe! Hurray!
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Post by boxofscreaming on Sept 25, 2017 18:25:14 GMT
I don't like Morrigan's character enough to buy her poorly developed Dlc,so i've renounced to murder-knife her for the noble cause of sparing my money.If and only If the Dlc had to offer her death,then I would had bought it,but the reality is that all it has to offer is a ludicrous quest of following her lead from there and up to 10 years(until trespasser)for no reason and regardless of your choice. It's not really her DLC - she's in it for about two minutes. It's more an excuse to reuse locations from earlier parts of the game. Ariane was great though. Morrigan could well be a spirit healer by the time she gets stabbed, so I don't see one little knife wound killing her. Maybe she cast lifeward on herself?
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Post by Hagoromo on Sept 25, 2017 18:31:15 GMT
I think you're generalizing way too much what are entirely different situations. Oghren and Leliana's death were retconned by the writers,so they did in fact happened in-screen and were canonized but that was circumvented by the writers later on,and that's very bad but it's very different from a plot armor.Plus I don't think the Warden is bad at killing as they pretty much may have killed thousands of beings by the end of Wh,including the soul of the old god if they denied the Dark ritual and destroyed it the GW way . Way to take something to serious.... The reason she survived was because the warden didn't killed her. S/he failed to kill her. That simple. The Warden maybe thought she was killed, didn't wanted to risk step in a trap, feared that she was too strong when she didn't die at once, maybe the Warden was just waiting for her to come back from the mirror, maybe the warden didn't know what she had done to make the travel through a magic mirror safetly, maybe the Warden feel asleep for a moment, got distracted by all the loot or just bored of hunting her... Just choose a reason or sit and cry "plot armour". I don't really mind. Most Bioware game character have to much plot armour anyway. But as far as I know there is no Word of God that explain why she survived and not everyone will be happy about it anyway. "Accept it or Sit and cry" Well that's not exactly an exhaustive answer and usually I don't bother to argue if I can't see within the response given a little degree of rigor and civilty. Your explanation is exactly the same of Phoray,it is very poor and there isn't anything new in it,is a very subjective arguement made about others wardens of others players(therefore of whom you are not in control of) to whom you both apllied your own subective reasons which may be invalid for the simply reason that another player may not have those fears. It isn't the warden who failed,it is David Gaider who forced them to fail because he wanted Morrigan to not die,such statement is uspported by all the previous arguments I've read and that were never challenged in any substantial way in here. Now if you want to be choerent with our own response(the part in which you stated that you don't mind)don't reply to this message.
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Post by Mark7 on Sept 25, 2017 18:40:20 GMT
I don't like Morrigan's character enough to buy her poorly developed Dlc,so i've renounced to murder-knife her for the noble cause of sparing my money.If and only If the Dlc had to offer her death,then I would had bought it,but the reality is that all it has to offer is a ludicrous quest of following her lead from there and up to 10 years(until trespasser)for no reason and regardless of your choice. It's not really her DLC - she's in it for about two minutes. It's more an excuse to reuse locations from earlier parts of the game. Ariane was great though. Morrigan could well be a spirit healer by the time she gets stabbed, so I don't see one little knife wound killing her. Maybe she cast lifeward on herself? Wh is Morrigan's Dlc.It's her Dlc because it revolves around her and its purpose is to find her.It doesn't really matter that she is there for 1 minute. It doesn't matter also if she is an healer or not(which nobody can prove even by the time of DAI)since I don't see way the Warden was unable to cross the eluvian(unless they romance her which just prove the eluvian could have been crossed by anyone) to finish her if they wanted her dead, or use the knife on her throat rather than the abdomen and that hit would have been impossible to heal.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 25, 2017 19:02:06 GMT
It's not really her DLC - she's in it for about two minutes. It's more an excuse to reuse locations from earlier parts of the game. Ariane was great though. Morrigan could well be a spirit healer by the time she gets stabbed, so I don't see one little knife wound killing her. Maybe she cast lifeward on herself? Wh is Morrigan's Dlc.It's her Dlc because it revolves around her and its purpose is to find her.It doesn't really matter that she is there for 1 minute. It doesn't matter also if she is an healer or not(which nobody can prove even by the time of DAI)since I don't see way the Warden was unable to cross the eluvian(unless they romance her which just prove the eluvian could have been crossed by anyone) to finish her if they wanted her dead, or use the knife on her throat rather than the abdomen and that hit would have been impossible to heal. There are many annoying illogical things exist in game. I don't get this whines about Morrigan's survive. Just. Deal. With. It.
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Post by Aren on Sept 25, 2017 19:18:35 GMT
hammerstorm That's not true,the warden could have used the eluvian to check if she was dead or not,nobody was in the position to stop them in doing so,aslo there was no reason to wait until WH for the warden to kill her,in Redclieffe there is a dialogue option that imply their will to attack her,an option directly denied by the writer.So yes she has plot armor in DAO ,and she also has another(which is worse) in DAI against Corypheus' Archdemon.
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Post by Mark7 on Sept 25, 2017 19:31:17 GMT
There are many annoying illogical things exist in game. I don't get this whines about Morrigan's survive. Just. Deal. With. It. Look! if it isn't Catlina and his casual,classical and overused meme expression.You haven't changed. Tell me with what I should deal with exactly this time?A monster from the swamps? Or an idiot from the internet?
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Post by oyabun on Sept 25, 2017 20:22:07 GMT
hammerstorm That's not true,the warden could have used the eluvian to check if she was dead or not,nobody was in the position to stop them in doing so,aslo there was no reason to wait until WH for the warden to kill her,in Redclieffe there is a dialogue option that imply their will to attack her,an option directly denied by the writer.So yes she has plot armor in DAO ,and she also has another(which is worse) in DAI against Corypheus' Archdemon. Your first argument is valid,the eluvian was glowing even after she was stabbed,so it could have been used once more. However use my argument of Redcliffe to make a more strong point,and there isn't anyone who can ever form any argument against it,not even the kind of subjective reasonings I've seen from Hammerstorm or Phoray with regard of WH,which can't really be applied to every warden just because they say so.
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