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Post by Prince on Sept 25, 2017 21:01:52 GMT
The reason she survived was because the warden didn't killed her. S/he failed to kill her. That simple. The Warden maybe thought she was killed, didn't wanted to risk step in a trap, feared that she was too strong when she didn't die at once, maybe the Warden was just waiting for her to come back from the mirror, maybe the warden didn't know what she had done to make the travel through a magic mirror safetly, maybe the Warden feel asleep for a moment, got distracted by all the loot or just bored of hunting her... Just choose a reason or sit and cry "plot armour". I don't really mind. Most Bioware game character have to much plot armour anyway. But as far as I know there is no Word of God that explain why she survived and not everyone will be happy about it anyway. The reason why she didn't died was plot armor,is even more simple:). I see you are a fan of the not "on-so-logical argument", the Just find whatever reason to make it work kind of thing,even if it doesn't really make sense..... The warden "feel asleep" argument was the most funny tough,stupid,but funny.
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Post by Harpie Lady on Sept 25, 2017 21:27:49 GMT
Plot armor. she wouldn't have gone that far without it in the Franchise:
1)In Redclieffe from the Warden. 2)In Witch Hunt from the Warden. 3)In the last court from the Marquis.(this may be rationalized has a non-plot armor) 4)In Inquisition from the Red Lyrium Dragon (her greatest one).
I've also never liked the argument of "Warden just thought that she was dead and that's why didn't went into the mirror" because by the time of Wh their level of expertise should be more than enought to understand when a wound is fatal or not.
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Post by Harpie Lady on Sept 26, 2017 10:09:57 GMT
KeiAnd if the Warden had stepped through the Eluvian, a murderous gleam in his eye, to ensure the death of the Evil Morrigan, then I would say it doesn't make sense that she survived. But she's been a companion the entire game, survival instinct intact, and a mage. And the Warden did NOT step through the Eluvian to see if his SINGLE stab wound finished her off. The warden did not step through the eluvian not because they couldn't have done that(there was no obstacle whatsoever) but because the writer had decided what they should have done,thus completly destroying player agency. I know you've made up a lot of excuses to justify that(as the others Morrigan fans) but that's what the truth is,in two words PLOT ARMOR is what happened.
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Post by Kei on Sept 26, 2017 10:14:28 GMT
KeiAnd if the Warden had stepped through the Eluvian, a murderous gleam in his eye, to ensure the death of the Evil Morrigan, then I would say it doesn't make sense that she survived. But she's been a companion the entire game, survival instinct intact, and a mage. And the Warden did NOT step through the Eluvian to see if his SINGLE stab wound finished her off. The warden did not step through the eluvian not because they couldn't have done that(there was no obstacle whatsoever) but because the writer had decided what they should have done,thus completly destroying player agency. I know you've made up a lot of excuses to justify that(as the others Morrigan fans) but that's what the truth is,in two words PLOT ARMOR is what happened. I just don't like when people are making up excuses solely to cover truths when they don't like it.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2017 13:55:05 GMT
I don't like Morrigan's character enough to buy her poorly developed Dlc,so i've renounced to murder-knife her for the noble cause of sparing my money.If and only If the Dlc had to offer her death,then I would had bought it,but the reality is that all it has to offer is a ludicrous quest of following her lead from there and up to 10 years(until trespasser)for no reason and regardless of your choice. It's not really her DLC - she's in it for about two minutes. It's more an excuse to reuse locations from earlier parts of the game. Ariane was great though. Morrigan could well be a spirit healer by the time she gets stabbed, so I don't see one little knife wound killing her. Maybe she cast lifeward on herself? Well, next time we'll know, and will require an option to cut off her head, hack her body into tiny pieces, burn each piece separately with extra-special purple-Silver Veil fire , then have her bones ground into dust, so she could be completely eliminated from this life, afterlife, Fade, and every one of the Thousand Planes of Existence. I am sure there is a spell we can perform to wipe her out of the Alternative Universe(s) as well. I shall dedicate every agent under my command to find it, spamming their scanners to leave no inch of Thedas unexplored. If it takes me a thousand game hours.... Lol, seriously, if she could have been killed, a knife would have sufficed.
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Post by Prince on Sept 26, 2017 19:04:23 GMT
I love the irony,even though with some characters(like Flemeth) it may be more closer to the truth than people may think. Morrigan surely doesn't have any in game justification for absurd survivability and the option of killing her in the Dlc is unvailable for a writer's wish not because the Warden is an incompetent. Let me give a simple example: If a warden is a rogue equipped with daggers or poisoned daggers(daggers are as fast as knives),why the heck they use the knife to attack her? there is simply no choice the player can make with regard of the modality in which they want to attack her.
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Post by oyabun on Sept 26, 2017 19:21:01 GMT
Let me give a simple example: If a warden is a rogue equipped with daggers or poisoned daggers(daggers are as fast as knives),why the heck they use the knife to attack her? there is simply no choice the player can make with regard of the modality in which they want to attack her. The murder-knife is not a weapon,it was always intended as a plot device for dialogues.There are many dialogues in which both Hawke and the Warden can kill people (even when they were stabbed in the abdomen like Morrigan) in one hit and immediatly(even if they are mages,healers or whatever or have armors).The murder-knife has always worked with anybody in DA and it only fails with Morrigan because they did not wanted for her to die since they wanted her in the sequels. There is no need to think too much about others weapons that could have been used,or else anyone can argue why the warden didn't used a bow in stealth mode and shoot her directly from the distance wihtout even interacting with her.
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Post by Prince on Sept 26, 2017 19:38:14 GMT
Let me give a simple example: If a warden is a rogue equipped with daggers or poisoned daggers(daggers are as fast as knives),why the heck they use the knife to attack her? there is simply no choice the player can make with regard of the modality in which they want to attack her. The murder-knife is not a weapon,it was always intended as a plot device for dialogues.There are many dialogues in which both Hawke and the Warden can kill people (even when they were stabbed in the abdomen like Morrigan) in one hit and immediatly(even if they are mages,healers or whatever or have armors).The murder-knife has always worked with anybody in DA and it only fails with Morrigan because they did not wanted for her to die since they wanted her in the sequels. There is no need to think too much about others weapons that could have been used,or else anyone can argue why the warden didn't used a bow in stealth mode and shoot her directly from the distance wihtout even interacting with her. that's just prove my point,there were many ways in which the Warden could have attacked her but they forced one on every player,no matter what kind of warden they had(Warriors,rogues or mages)
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Sept 27, 2017 3:12:25 GMT
The same reason Leliana don't stay dead. The same reason Oghren don't stay dead. The Warden suck at killing people apparently. Wouldn't surprise me if The Warden failed to kill the Archdemon. I mean, only two of my Wardens actually finished the job... Leilana's different, though. Morrigan and Oghren don't stay dead because the Warden sucks at checking pulses. The "Leiliana" you meet if you killed her is a magically created ghost-clone or something, while the real Leiliana is still dead as a coffin-nail. I agree that all three of those technically fall under plot-armor, though. (For the role, if not for the person.)
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Post by Prince on Sept 27, 2017 13:54:40 GMT
The same reason Leliana don't stay dead. The same reason Oghren don't stay dead. The Warden suck at killing people apparently. Wouldn't surprise me if The Warden failed to kill the Archdemon. I mean, only two of my Wardens actually finished the job... Leilana's different, though. Morrigan and Oghren don't stay dead because the Warden sucks at checking pulses. The Warden can't chek the pulses of bodies that for gameplay rules are turned into bones. Oghren'ss body turns into bones(just like Leliana) after he is killed,but then he comes back the same,and that's way they probably called the expansion the Awakening.
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Post by Mark7 on Sept 27, 2017 14:04:24 GMT
How does Morrigan survive in Wh to the option of attack? I've watched the scene. Now I'm pretty sure it was the warden who actually pushed her into the mirror. She doesn't fall in it immediately as the result of the attack,at first she bend on the opposite direction of the mirror(she even has the time to look at the warden for like 5 seconds) and later on her body goes towards the mirror after the warden uses the other hand to push her in the portal.So I would say the cinematic scene was scripted in order for the player to not be able to control the warden moves.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 27, 2017 14:06:53 GMT
So: Problem solved: the Warden was lame, Morrigan survived, and everyone's happy.
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Post by Mark7 on Sept 27, 2017 14:10:45 GMT
So: The Warden was lame, Morrigan survived, and everyone's happy. No,the warden was just out of player control. I know you don't like to accept it because you're Morrigan supporter,but that doesn't really interest me, given the fact that Gaider was fired and therefore Morrigan being dead or not will be irrelevant from now on to the end result of not seeing her anymore.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 27, 2017 14:21:51 GMT
So: The Warden was lame, Morrigan survived, and everyone's happy. No,the warden was just out of player control. I know you don't like to accept it because you're Morrigan supporter,but that doesn't really interest me, given the fact that Gaider was fired and therefore Morrigan being dead or not will be irrelevant from now on to the end result of not seeing her anymore. I just say, that not Morrigan's survival the most illogical thing in the whole game and not even the most outrageous.
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Post by Domakir on Sept 27, 2017 14:54:21 GMT
This topic is starting to be a little repetitive.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2017 16:53:24 GMT
So: Problem solved: the Warden was lame, Morrigan survived, and everyone's happy. I beg you to differ. I need more opportunities in the next game to test various magics and weapons to see which one could penetrate that plot armor and achieve a state of permanent death. There were missed opportunities in DA3. Sera could have used her for target practice to shoot arrows dipped in Veil fire, iron Bull could have stuffed her in a barrel of Qunari gunpowder and explode her, Cullen could have drop her off the castle wall down into the precipice below... For science, of course.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 27, 2017 17:00:57 GMT
So: Problem solved: the Warden was lame, Morrigan survived, and everyone's happy. I beg you to differ. I need more opportunities in the next game to test various magics and weapons to see which one could penetrate that plot armor and achieve a state of permanent death. There were missed opportunities in DA3. Sera could have used her for target practice to shoot arrows dipped in Veil fire, iron Bull could have stuffed her in a barrel of Qunari gunpowder and explode her, Cullen could have drop her off the castle wall down into the precipice below... For science, of course. "Boiling in oil." "Dipped in molten gold and left as a statue in the Viscount's Keep" Skyhold.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2017 17:10:16 GMT
I beg you to differ. I need more opportunities in the next game to test various magics and weapons to see which one could penetrate that plot armor and achieve a state of permanent death. There were missed opportunities in DA3. Sera could have used her for target practice to shoot arrows dipped in Veil fire, iron Bull could have stuffed her in a barrel of Qunari gunpowder and explode her, Cullen could have drop her off the castle wall down into the precipice below... For science, of course. "Boiling in oil." "Dipped in molten gold and left as a statue in the Viscount's Keep" Skyhold. Sure, intergrated it into thegame's mechanic, render a judgment, pour metal, then place the resulted gilded statue by the gazebo. would be way more satisfying and useful than the immortal version by the gazebo. 10/10, would pay for this.
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Post by Prince on Sept 27, 2017 19:19:56 GMT
No,the warden was just out of player control. I know you don't like to accept it because you're Morrigan supporter,but that doesn't really interest me, given the fact that Gaider was fired and therefore Morrigan being dead or not will be irrelevant from now on to the end result of not seeing her anymore. I just say, that not Morrigan's survival the most illogical thing in the whole game and not even the most outrageous. Of course it is outrageous especially her surviving a fall from the sky,and the arrows of the Marquis as well,her level of plot armor is 200+ the fact that Gaider was fired and therefore Morrigan being dead or not will be irrelevant from now on to the end result of not seeing her anymore. Amen
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Sept 27, 2017 22:52:23 GMT
Gaider was fired and therefore Morrigan being dead or not will be irrelevant from now on to the end result of not seeing her anymore. Wait, are we sure he was fired? And either way, how does that conclusion follow from the premise? I mean, only two of my Wardens actually finished the job... Leilana's different, though. Morrigan and Oghren don't stay dead because the Warden sucks at checking pulses. The Warden can't chek the pulses of bodies that for gameplay rules are turned into bones. Oghren'ss body turns into bones(just like Leliana) after he is killed,but then he comes back the same,and that's way they probably called the expansion the Awakening. If you honestly think bodies canonically decay that fast then I don't know what to tell you.
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Post by Mark7 on Sept 28, 2017 0:47:08 GMT
Gaider was fired and therefore Morrigan being dead or not will be irrelevant from now on to the end result of not seeing her anymore. I don't have proofs to say that he was fired simply because I do not belong to the official EA team. However it doesn't take a genius to understand that someone who is being first removed from the IP and then removed from the company may not have been in a good releationship with EA,nobody have the means to disprove the claim either. As for the conclusion which was about why we will never see this character again,it isn't certanty but it has High probabilities of happening,given the fact that A) his writer was removed. B)it doesn't make sense to reuse someone with a closed story for DA4. C)she does not fit with Solas story. D)reuse her means giving her a 5th forced cameo,and i can't see any good in that. [/quote]
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Post by Prince on Sept 28, 2017 0:52:52 GMT
If you honestly think bodies canonically decay that fast then I don't know what to tell you. The Timeline of the game doesn't reflect the IRL timeline. When you complete the game in 40 hours IRL,one year is passed there. You don't get to perceive the flow of time in the camp or anywhere else in the game. So by making that into account it is logically possibile for bodies in-game to decay that fast.
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Post by skrillex on Sept 28, 2017 0:58:26 GMT
How does Morrigan survive in Wh You got the wrong DLC,that's why she doesn't die.Play this next time.
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Post by Prince on Sept 28, 2017 1:12:46 GMT
But that's not healty for the baby...
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Sept 28, 2017 1:36:57 GMT
If you honestly think bodies canonically decay that fast then I don't know what to tell you. The Timeline of the game doesn't reflect the IRL timeline. When you complete the game in 40 hours IRL,one year is passed there. You don't get to perceive the flow of time in the camp or anywhere else in the game. So by making that into account it is logically possibile for bodies in-game to decay that fast. How do any of those mean that there's reason to believe bodies actually decay that fast? It's possible, but why on earth would we actually believe it? Wait, are we sure he was fired? And either way, how does that conclusion follow from the premise? I don't have proofs to say that he was fired simply because I do not belong to the official EA team. However it doesn't take a genius to understand that someone who is being first removed from the IP and then removed from the company may not have been in a good releationship with EA,nobody have the means to disprove the claim either. Well, that means we aren't sure. There's reason to wonder maybe, but given that he announced he had a new job right as he announced he no longer had his old one there's reason to wonder if maybe it was his idea too. Either way, it's still not the main point here.The next writer might see a use for her.Her story isn't quite closed, though. The dev notes state that Flemeth wanted Morrigan to be the next one to carry Mythal's spirit. And then there's the Well thing that hasn't quite (or at all) been resolved, and has maybe a 50/50 chance of directly involving her depending on player choices.I might agree. It partially depends on what exactly he absorbed from Flemeth at the end of Inquisition. If Solas is now Mythal in the same way Flemeth was, then he does control her. If he has an asset like that, is he really not going to use her? But if that's not how it works, and she does cameo, they'd need to sell the plot reasons pretty well. (Though again: I gave two reasons above.) I'll grant that she is getting tiresome.
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