Heimdall
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Post by Heimdall on Dec 3, 2019 9:51:19 GMT
I’m half way through the second season of voyager
I have to say that I’m just not feeling it. These characters just aren’t as compelling as TNG for me and aside from a few standout episodes the lack of continuous storyline hurts it a lot, though that might just be down to the type of shows I’ve become used to.
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Post by Sifr on Dec 5, 2019 6:56:16 GMT
I’m half way through the second season of voyager I have to say that I’m just not feeling it. These characters just aren’t as compelling as TNG for me and aside from a few standout episodes the lack of continuous storyline hurts it a lot, though that might just be down to the type of shows I’ve become used to. Voyager does improve by S4.
It never really shakes the adherence to the status quo and preference for stand-alone episodes over story arcs, but the writers finally bother to include character development and began to explore the various relationships and dynamics between the crew for the first time.
I do enjoy early Voyager, but most of my favourite episodes are from S4 onwards.
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Post by Sifr on Dec 31, 2019 4:54:43 GMT
Really sad that we ended this year having lost Rene Auberjonois (Odo), Aron Eisenberg (Nog) and D.C. Fontana (TOS writer), RIP.
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Post by House Targaryen on Jan 1, 2020 0:09:34 GMT
That does suck. Now we can't have a DS9 reunion.
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Post by Sifr on Jan 12, 2020 9:39:40 GMT
"I calculate a 96% probability that Ishara Yar will respond to learning I am 'Fully Functional' just as enthusiastically as her sister."
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Heimdall
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Post by Heimdall on Jan 13, 2020 2:26:48 GMT
Stumbled upon this randomly on YouTube and it’s weirdly catchy so I’m sharing it:
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Post by N7eezo on Jan 13, 2020 19:31:23 GMT
2 further live action Star Trek's planned- Discovery
- Section 31 (ugh)
- Picard (2nd season confirmed today as well)
- Lower Decks (animated)
- animated Nickelodeon TBA
- live action TBA
- live action TBA
Fingers crossed for a Pike/Spock/Number One show, probably with a rumored "Academy" show being the 2nd.
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Post by Obsidian Gryphon on Jan 13, 2020 22:08:12 GMT
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 14, 2020 6:18:25 GMT
(Yawn) Yeah, I remember how HBO's Watchmen's politics were supposed to doom it too, until it didn't happen.
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Post by Sifr on Jan 14, 2020 7:25:55 GMT
(Yawn) Yeah, I remember how HBO's Watchmen's politics were supposed to doom it too, until it didn't happen. Yeah, I thoroughly enjoyed Watchmen, so I don't know what everyone was rabbiting on about?
(Besides, it's not like the original graphic novel wasn't political either).
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 14, 2020 18:02:02 GMT
In fairness, I couldn't force myself to watch the whole vid. That genre doesn't really work for me. The bandwidth for the argument is so much worse with video than with text that either I get bored waiting for the guy to get to the point, or the vid's interesting enough to read as propaganda, in which case I tune out even faster.
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Post by Sifr on Jan 17, 2020 20:19:16 GMT
In fairness, I couldn't force myself to watch the whole vid. That genre doesn't really work for me. The bandwidth for the argument is so much worse with video than with text that either I get bored waiting for the guy to get to the point, or the vid's interesting enough to read as propaganda, in which case I tune out even faster. I don't understand the umbrage about including modern political analogues, given that it's always been a facet of the franchise? Have these people never watched Star Trek before?
What did they think the Cold War between the Federation and Klingons was referencing, what people meant when they called Star Trek VI "The Berlin Wall coming down in space" and were they confused what stance Star Trek IV took regarding the subject of whale-hunting?
More importantly, none of the political topics referenced haven't been covered in some form already. We've already depicted a isolationist movement on Vulcan in TNG and the DS9 writers even toyed with the idea of having Vulcan "Brexit" out of the Federation in S4, before they changed it to the Klingons ending their alliance instead.
The only important take away from the video is that due to the ViacomCBS remerger, all the rights to Star Trek are now under one roof again. So we can finally continue on with the Prime timeline, rather than having to get around it with alternate (Kelvin) or Prime-In-Name-Only Prequels (Discovery).
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 18, 2020 18:28:20 GMT
Well, dressing up personal taste issues as some sort of objective fact question is, regrettably, pretty common. The one which always bugged me was when people who didn't like how Seinfeld or Friends never got out of the main characters' all-white bubble -- or in the case of Seinfeld, depicted being outside that bubble as threatening to the main characters -- tried to make it an argument about realism. Given the way social life in New York worked then, it just wasn't unrealistic. (Depends on what your social life was organized around, of course, but in the time I lived there, the only hangout of mine which was anything like integrated was the Spring Lounge.) I'm more bothered when people who are nominally on my side of issues engage in this sort of thing.
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Post by Obadiah on Jan 21, 2020 7:05:02 GMT
I've been watching season 1 of Discovery. I liked the first episode because the new characters were all interesting (doesn't hurt that Sonequa Martin-Green is super cute), and it looked like old time Star Trek - a crew of uplifted humans and aliens using morality and advanced science out to solve interstellar problems etc, then then whole Klingon war plot kicked in with cover agent weirdness and Mirror Universe crap. Lord, why did Mirror Universe have to take up so many episodes? That nonsense was tired the first time it only appeared in just 1 episode in the original series! So far, the one outstanding episode was the plot-twist reveal of one of the main characters' origin at an episode's finale - and that was with me having spoiled the reveal from the internet. The change in character felt so unnatural, but I had fun watching the actor ham it up. It put a big ole "WHOA....!" on my face Only one episode left, but from the direction of things I'm guessing I won't like it. The whole series seems like it is more interested in spectacular special effects and action sequences than thoughtfully working through complex problems. ...but, I suppose it could be worse...
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 21, 2020 18:09:25 GMT
It's a little late to complain about too much MU in Trek. The DS9 and ENT versions were popular. Something that fans keep liking is gonna keep coming back.
Having said that, I wasn't a huge fan of the DSC implementation. That MU character was a lot more interesting before the twist.
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Post by AnDromedary on Jan 21, 2020 18:22:01 GMT
I've been watching season 1 of Discovery. I liked the first episode because the new characters were all interesting (doesn't hurt that Sonequa Martin-Green is super cute), and it looked like old time Star Trek - a crew of uplifted humans and aliens using morality and advanced science out to solve interstellar problems etc, then then whole Klingon war plot kicked in with cover agent weirdness and Mirror Universe crap. Lord, why did Mirror Universe have to take up so many episodes? That nonsense was tired the first time it only appeared in just 1 episode in the original series! So far, the one outstanding episode was the plot-twist reveal of one of the main characters' origin at an episode's finale - and that was with me having spoiled the reveal from the internet. The change in character felt so unnatural, but I had fun watching the actor ham it up. It put a big ole "WHOA....!" on my face Only one episode left, but from the direction of things I'm guessing I won't like it. The whole series seems like it is more interested in spectacular special effects and action sequences than thoughtfully working through complex problems. ...but, I suppose it could be worse... Even if you are not super happy with the first season (especially given what you didn't like about it), I suggest you give the second season a try anyway. It is very different in tone and how it approaches the plot. To me, the second season of DSC (so we aren't calling it STD any more? )) felt way more like oldschool Trek than the first one did.
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Post by Obadiah on Jan 22, 2020 15:47:45 GMT
I've been watching season 1 of Discovery. I liked the first episode because the new characters were all interesting (doesn't hurt that Sonequa Martin-Green is super cute), and it looked like old time Star Trek - a crew of uplifted humans and aliens using morality and advanced science out to solve interstellar problems etc, then then whole Klingon war plot kicked in with cover agent weirdness and Mirror Universe crap. Lord, why did Mirror Universe have to take up so many episodes? That nonsense was tired the first time it only appeared in just 1 episode in the original series! So far, the one outstanding episode was the plot-twist reveal of one of the main characters' origin at an episode's finale - and that was with me having spoiled the reveal from the internet. The change in character felt so unnatural, but I had fun watching the actor ham it up. It put a big ole "WHOA....!" on my face Only one episode left, but from the direction of things I'm guessing I won't like it. The whole series seems like it is more interested in spectacular special effects and action sequences than thoughtfully working through complex problems. ...but, I suppose it could be worse... Even if you are not super happy with the first season (especially given what you didn't like about it), I suggest you give the second season a try anyway. It is very different in tone and how it approaches the plot. To me, the second season of DSC (so we aren't calling it STD any more? )) felt way more like oldschool Trek than the first one did. Well, the final episode wasn't too bad - although a bit overdramatic and goofily coincidental. Overall the series seemed more interested in character development/journeys as opposed to plausible stories - this is not a good thing. For example, the whole idea that the show runners would try to make up, and then explain a drastic change in the Klingon's physical appearance just seems stupid on the face of it. Why would anyone approve such a plot, let alone in this franchise? Courting controversy for internet clicks no doubt.
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Post by Heimdall on Jan 22, 2020 19:28:08 GMT
I don't understand the umbrage about including modern political analogues, given that it's always been a facet of the franchise? Have these people never watched Star Trek before?
What did they think the Cold War between the Federation and Klingons was referencing, what people meant when they called Star Trek VI "The Berlin Wall coming down in space" and were they confused what stance Star Trek IV took regarding the subject of whale-hunting? Well, I haven’t watched enough new Star Trek to form an opinion on what they’ve done. I can say that political messaging, when too heavy handed, can be annoying even when you agree in principle. That was my reaction to the whale business in Star Trek IV anyway, never liked that movie. Of course if you tackle more controversial topics where agreement is far from universal or majority, and in doing so present matters dogmatically rather than as a question or a debate, without understanding for conflicting viewpoints, you are going to run into a lot of trouble. Which is to say, people object when the politics in their Star Trek not only contradicts their own but denies the legitimacy of their own views. Most people haven’t really thought about it in a nuanced way, however, so they just complain about the presence of politics generally. I write this while having no idea what messaging in Discovery or other people are actually complaining about.
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 23, 2020 16:00:27 GMT
I agree that's the source of the objection, but it's weird to see such complaints directed at Picard rather than TNG where things like, for instance, 21st-century social conservativism simply didn't exist anymore in Federation culture. The Federation talks a good diversity game, but in practice treats all the important questions as being settled, and doesn't really tolerate any divergence on non-trivial matters.(Which is occasionally pointed out in DS9.)
Hell, racial segregation was still a live issue in the US in 1966 -- Wallace made his "segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever" speech only three years earlier -- but that didn't stop TOS from being blatantly pro-integration.
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Post by AnDromedary on Jan 23, 2020 16:59:14 GMT
I agree that's the source of the objection, but it's weird to see such complaints directed at Picard rather than TNG where things like, for instance, 21st-century social conservativism simply didn't exist anymore in Federation culture. The Federation talks a good diversity game, but in practice treats all the important questions as being settled, and doesn't really tolerate any divergence on non-trivial matters.(Which is occasionally pointed out in DS9.) Hell, racial segregation was still a live issue in the US in 1966 -- Wallace made his "segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever" speech only three years earlier -- but that didn't stop TOS from being blatantly pro-integration. Well, TNG for example did tackle a lot of these issues. But it did so mostly by using the alien civilization of the week as the mirror for our current real life society while the Federation remained that idealized one. (TOS often did the same actually). I always thought this was a clever trick which allowed them to keep Star Trek's overall very positive message for the future of humankind (aka, "we CAN be better than our current selves") while still tackling the issues that we needed to address. I can only remember very few instances, where the Federation itself is doing something corrupt and if it does, it's usually due to a very limited number of treacherous individuals that the heroes must defeat. I do hope that ST:Picard will not compromise this setup too much. IMO, it's perfectly ok to point out flaws in the Federation and it's development but - especially since Picard comes out of the TNG tradition and hopefully will be a bit of a throwback to those glory days of Trek - I hope that generally, it will preserve the positive message that mankind can become a utopian civilization if we strive for idealism instead of cynicism. That to me was always a core point at the heart of Trek and in fact, Picard was one of the main characters symboilizing that. In any event, I am very curious how this series is gonna go. Totally excited about the show. Well, the final episode wasn't too bad - although a bit overdramatic and goofily coincidental. Overall the series seemed more interested in character development/journeys as opposed to plausible stories - this is not a good thing. For example, the whole idea that the show runners would try to make up, and then explain a drastic change in the Klingon's physical appearance just seems stupid on the face of it. Why would anyone approve such a plot, let alone in this franchise? Courting controversy for internet clicks no doubt. Yea, in order to enjoy DSC, you definitely have to make yourself comfortable with the fact that it is its own thing and does some truely weird and goofy things. I still think there is a decent series underneath it all but some plot points in both seasons are just plain stupid, that's for sure.
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 23, 2020 18:07:04 GMT
We'll have to see about the idealism. What I took away from that Short Treks setup episode and some of the interviews is that while we thought that a lot of issues were resolved in the future... maybe they're not actually solved, just repressed.
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Post by AnDromedary on Jan 23, 2020 18:16:05 GMT
We'll have to see about the idealism. What I took away from that Short Treks setup episode and some of the interviews is that while we thought that a lot of issues were resolved in the future... maybe they're not actually solved, just repressed. If that really will be the message, Gene Roddenberry's ashes will turn in his grave.
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Post by Sifr on Jan 24, 2020 18:05:46 GMT
So far, the one outstanding episode was the plot-twist reveal of one of the main characters' origin at an episode's finale - and that was with me having spoiled the reveal from the internet. The change in character felt so unnatural, but I had fun watching the actor ham it up. It put a big ole "WHOA....!" on my face The sudden change in characterisation was so jarring it might as well given us whiplash. I didn't mind the twist, but I'd preferred they'd kept the characterisation relatively the same as before, rather than have their entire personality change so rapidly it was like someone had flipped their switch to "Evil".
I'm still holding out slim hope that the Prime version of that character isn't dead and might end up returning somewhere down the road. I like to think the Prime version was not all that much different from the MU version, so if anyone could have survived being trapped inside the MU, it'd have been then.
It's a little late to complain about too much MU in Trek. The DS9 and ENT versions were popular. Something that fans keep liking is gonna keep coming back.Also the actors get to have some fun hamming it up as their evil counterparts.
Even if you are not super happy with the first season (especially given what you didn't like about it), I suggest you give the second season a try anyway. It is very different in tone and how it approaches the plot. To me, the second season of DSC (so we aren't calling it STD any more? )) felt way more like oldschool Trek than the first one did. Much like TNG before it, it took until the second season before DSC finally grew the beard. We'll have to see about the idealism. What I took away from that Short Treks setup episode and some of the interviews is that while we thought that a lot of issues were resolved in the future... maybe they're not actually solved, just repressed.Which does fit with some interpretations of the Federation (even in the show).
Humanity in the TNG-era were constantly patting themselves on the back for being "evolved", but it seems more that this was a mixture of hubris, selective obliviousness and denial on their part. Humanity in the mid-to-late 24th Century lived in the lap of luxury, where all their needs are met and for the most part, have enjoyed a period of relative peace and prosperity. Until the Borg and Dominion conflicts, there was nothing threatening their survival that would make them fall into their old ways, allowing their better angels to always win through. It's one of the reasons I preferred the more nuanced approach that TOS and DS9 had, that humanity had not lost their worst qualities, only gotten a better handle on controlling them.
Kirk has some great speeches commenting on the human condition and how they've flawed, but they're trying to be better;
"Alright, it's instinctive... but the instinct can be fought. We've human beings, with the blood of a million savage years on our hands. But we can stop it. We can admit that we're killers... but we're not going to kill today. That's all it takes. Knowing that we're not going to kill... today."
Sisko's rant about the Federation's lack of awareness about how not all it's citizens share the same quality of life;
"On Earth there is no poverty, no crime, no war. You look out the window of Starfleet headquarters and you see paradise. Well it's easy to be a saint in paradise. But the Maquis do not live in paradise. Out there, in the Demilitarised Zone, all the problems haven't been solved yet. There are no saints. Just people. Angry, scared, determined people who are going to do whatever it takes to survive, whether it meets with the Federation's approval or not."
And Quark pointing out to Nog that when push comes to shove, humans can be downright terrifying;
"Let me tell you something about hew-mons, nephew. They are a wonderful, friendly people. As long as their bellies are full and their holosuites are working. But take away their creature comforts, deprive them of food, sleep, sonic showers, put their lives in jeopardy over an extended period of time and those same friendly, intelligent, wonderful people... will become as nasty, and as violent, as the most blood-thirsty Klingon. You don't believe me, look at those faces... look in their eyes. You know I'm right, don't you?"
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