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Post by colfoley on Apr 10, 2020 22:17:06 GMT
What bothers me about most reviews online is the apparent double-standards you sometimes see. There are fans who purport to like DS9 with it's imperfect Federation with a more militaristic Starfleet and morally grey conflicts, yet somehow hate Picard because it shows an imperfect Federation with a more militaristic Starfleet with morally grey conflicts. That is not to say that Picard is good, nor anywhere near the quality of DS9, only that it is weird to see fans criticise the exact same elements that they loved in DS9 and even complained that show didn't go far enough with? That said, toning down the action in modern Trek is a complaint that I can get behind. It especially makes sense to tone down the action with Picard, as his character was always a badass pacifist. Some of his best moments in TNG involved him defeating enemies without ever having to fire a shot, such as rules lawyering the Sheliak into submission or sending the Romulans scurrying by revealing the posse of cloaked Klingon warbirds backing him up. his speech to that one race to buy his people time does stick out. "You enjoyed that?" You're damn right number 1 Lol I just remembered their name so we referenced the same scene.
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Post by Sifr on Apr 11, 2020 11:01:41 GMT
his speech to that one race to buy his people time does stick out. "You enjoyed that?" You're damn right number 1 Lol I just remembered their name so we referenced the same scene. That scene is great.
Especially how he follows that by paying them back for their constant hanging-up by putting them on hold for over half a minute, even stopping to dust the ship's plaque before he finally deigns to answer their hail. It might have been more petty than the Roddenberry ideal should allow for, but the Sheliak very much deserved that comeuppance.
I wonder if this is why fans are more forgiving of Picard's moments of arrogance, overconfidence and "sheer f**king hubris" (as Picard put it) in TNG, because many of the foes he went up against (Romulans, Cardassians or Borg) were practically those qualities incarnate, so he didn't look so bad in comparison?
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Post by Heimdall on Apr 14, 2020 23:09:06 GMT
Well, in my quest to watch all the Trek series I ended up watching Enterprise first, then TOS long ago, then in the past year working through TNG, DS9 and Voyager.
Now I’m in new Trek territory, I took out a subscription to CBS and started watching Discovery.
I’m still watching the first episode but it’s... jarring compared to the Treks I’ve been watching. Also, the new Klingon design is very distracting.
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Post by regack on Apr 14, 2020 23:20:26 GMT
Well, in my quest to watch all the Trek series I ended up watching Enterprise first, then TOS long ago, then in the past year working through TNG, DS9 and Voyager. Now I’m in new Trek territory, I took out a subscription to CBS and started watching Discovery. I’m still watching the first episode but it’s... jarring compared to the Treks I’ve been watching. Also, the new Klingon design is very distracting. That's what I've heard. I haven't watched it, because I'm still bitter and annoyed at CBS for offering it on Netflix everywhere in the world except the US, where we're stuck having to buy CBS All Access. I've heard Picard is interesting, once you get done with having your STDs.
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Post by Heimdall on Apr 14, 2020 23:23:23 GMT
While it is interesting to see a Trek show that focuses mostly on someone that isn’t the captain, I’m seeing criticisms I remember reading about this show when the first season aired. Michael Burnham has so far ranted and raved like a madwoman and the show seems to think I should sympathize with this character.
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Post by Heimdall on Apr 16, 2020 17:56:28 GMT
Finished watching season 1 of Discovery
Well, I’m really hard pressed to feel like this is taking place before the original series, a similar problem that ENT had.
It did get better after the first episodes and some of the characters grew on me like Saru and Lorca. Not Michael Burnham though. She’s pretty bad in the first episodes and gets better but not enough to really wash out that first impression. The whole Ash Tyler subplot is just sort of baffling and I didn’t really understand what was done to him. The Spore drive they use for instantaneous travel also seems rather silly: every point in the universe and the multiverse are linked by omnipresent fungus... okay...
The writing takes off a bit after they get to the mirror universe plot, but at no point am I able to think of these aliens the Federation is at war with as the same Klingons.
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Post by AnDromedary on Apr 17, 2020 16:59:09 GMT
Finished watching season 1 of Discovery Well, I’m really hard pressed to feel like this is taking place before the original series, a similar problem that ENT had. It did get better after the first episodes and some of the characters grew on me like Saru and Lorca. Not Michael Burnham though. She’s pretty bad in the first episodes and gets better but not enough to really wash out that first impression. The whole Ash Tyler subplot is just sort of baffling and I didn’t really understand what was done to him. The Spore drive they use for instantaneous travel also seems rather silly: every point in the universe and the multiverse are linked by omnipresent fungus... okay... The writing takes off a bit after they get to the mirror universe plot, but at no point am I able to think of these aliens the Federation is at war with as the same Klingons. I think season 2 gets way more "trekky" than season 1 was. Curious to see what you think.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 25, 2020 8:45:58 GMT
Probably gonna get Discovery seasons 1 and 2 finally tommorow.
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Post by Sifr on May 5, 2020 7:02:57 GMT
Finished watching season 1 of Discovery Well, I’m really hard pressed to feel like this is taking place before the original series, a similar problem that ENT had. It did get better after the first episodes and some of the characters grew on me like Saru and Lorca. Not Michael Burnham though. She’s pretty bad in the first episodes and gets better but not enough to really wash out that first impression. The whole Ash Tyler subplot is just sort of baffling and I didn’t really understand what was done to him. The Spore drive they use for instantaneous travel also seems rather silly: every point in the universe and the multiverse are linked by omnipresent fungus... okay... The writing takes off a bit after they get to the mirror universe plot, but at no point am I able to think of these aliens the Federation is at war with as the same Klingons. It's worth noting that creator Bryan Fuller only worked on the first seven episodes of the show before leaving... which funnily enough, is right around the point when the show drastically improves, all the characters become more likable and (most of) the continuity problems cease.
Make of that what you will.
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Post by turianlannister on May 10, 2020 1:59:59 GMT
Well, in my quest to watch all the Trek series I ended up watching Enterprise first, then TOS long ago, then in the past year working through TNG, DS9 and Voyager. Now I’m in new Trek territory, I took out a subscription to CBS and started watching Discovery. I’m still watching the first episode but it’s... jarring compared to the Treks I’ve been watching. Also, the new Klingon design is very distracting. I cant understand how Saru and Linus (s2 character) look amazing whilst the Klingons look absolutely awful
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Post by Sifr on May 12, 2020 13:07:57 GMT
I cant understand how Saru and Linus (s2 character) look amazing whilst the Klingons look absolutely awful It's never been confirmed, but I wouldn't be surprised if the licensing problems were the reasons that Klingons in both Discovery and the Kelvin timeline (both done under the Bad Robot license) look so different from how they do in all other canon.
But even if that's not the reason, they definitely deserve the fan nickname "KlingOrcs".
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Post by Obadiah on May 15, 2020 18:20:49 GMT
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Post by colfoley on May 15, 2020 20:24:04 GMT
Its happening guys!
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Post by Balsam Beige on May 17, 2020 18:14:01 GMT
Good News! Hopefully they will get it right with this show! "A classic Star Trek show that deals with optimism and the future!"
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Post by colfoley on May 17, 2020 19:34:18 GMT
Good News! Hopefully they will get it right with this show! "A classic Star Trek show the deals with optimism and the future!" only thing I'm really worried about is it'll be a bit...episodic. however Anson Mount and Ethan Peck should be charismatic to pull it off.
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Post by Balsam Beige on May 17, 2020 21:33:03 GMT
Good News! Hopefully they will get it right with this show! "A classic Star Trek show the deals with optimism and the future!" only thing I'm really worried about is it'll be a bit...episodic. however Anson Mount and Ethan Peck should be charismatic to pull it off. Actually, I wouldn't mind if it was episodic. I agree, Anson Mount, Ethan Peck and Rebecca Romijn all had good chemistry between them. Hopefully the writing will be good.
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Post by colfoley on May 18, 2020 2:49:25 GMT
So JUST started watching Star Trek Discovery...and its almost this show is almost a perfect example of 'the more complex your writing aspirations the more things can go wrong'. Discovery was the first Trek show with season long story arcs built into its DNA from the beginning. So in a way its almost better written...by default...then any Trek show that has come before it. But yet...its not. Its certainly not one of my favorite Treks and I don't think its as well written as DS9 or the Xindi arc in Enterprise.
Its biggest problem is the ideas behind its plot twists. They did a wonderful job setting up and providing evidence behind the two big story twists in season 1...but then they really didn't do anything interesting with it. Lorca despite how amazing I think Jason Isaacs is because of the role...turned into a bog standard bad guy. And really while what they did with Tyler being a Klingon was much better handled and they did do some interesting stuff with it, I can't feel but be a little underwhelmed by him in season 2 for the vast majority of the season and then when it was looking like they WERE doing something interesting with him again they left him back in the past.
Other than that this show just seems inexplicably...inconsistent at times. It has some great ideas and some great story moments and some great arcs...but then some times when it just gets boring or weird.
Still its a good show.
Oh and its just weird Michael's heal turn between episodes 1 and 2 and then the rest of the show. She was such a...Vulcan...in the pilot only to act VERY human from there.
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Post by Heimdall on May 18, 2020 13:16:29 GMT
So I did get around to watching season 2 of Discovery and Picard.
They did try to redeem the Klingons a bit at the start of the season, in particular by giving them their hair back with a rather hilarious one line retcon: “Did you hear the Klingons have started growing their hair back after the war?” I’m still just not attached to their plot and it sort of felt like they kept bringing Tyler back without actually having much to do with him. As before, I did like Saru and his plot. I actually liked that this season found time for quasi episodic plots, like the human colony where there shouldn’t be one and the situation on Saru’s home world. I’d like some more like that, though there were also episodes I practically slept through. Pike was a treat, and I could easily get classic Star Trek vibes from his parts, I was particularly tickled where they brought back elements from the original Star Trek Pilot. I could even buy young Spock. I’m glad they’re getting a proper series.
That being said, there was a lot of focus on melodrama in personal relationships that I had mixed feelings about. A few times, I had the impression like I was watching a CW show, which felt out of place. I still don’t feel like Michael has a very consistent character.
As for Picard, well... I liked the characters and I always like watching Patrick Stewart, but I was not very into the angle they chose for the Android plotline. “AI will destroy us if we allow them to exist hysteria” is an extremely generic sci-fi plot and one I’ve been tired of since Mass Effect 3. It also seems a bit inconsistent with the direction taken in The Next Generation on the subject. That being said it was fun to see so much of the TNG cast back. I never had an issue with “Starfleet is fallible and sometimes shady” aspect, since that’s pretty consistent with Starfleet as I’ve seen it in TNG and DS9.
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Post by colfoley on May 19, 2020 1:14:53 GMT
Soooo. I actually ended up marathoning the entire "Klingon war arc pt 1 for Discovery or roughly the first 7 episodes of the show. And despite how this arc probably having the 2 worse episodes of the entire series (the one with Sarak and the time loop episode) and despite how much I love season 2, Pike, Saru, Michael a bit more, and just season 2 as being better (mostly because of that godly two parter season finale)...I still think this has been the best most consistently good arc of the show. The best arc of the four we have seen to this part in the show.
And well in brief I think the reason for this might be because of pacing... see while I think season 2s arc being a season long story really lent itself well in a lot of ways in setting up the pay off to the season finale I think there were parts of it that were long in the tooth because it was just waiting for something to happen. It will be curious to see what i think going back through season 2 with the benefit of hindsight. But the First part of the Klingon arc was just very fast paced and very direct which is still amazing because they wasted two episodes on episodic nonsense.
The second biggest reason that this arc works so well is Gabriel friggin Lorca. It was funny I was watching someone react to Harr Potter and the Chamber of Secrets on Youtube earlier and Jason Isaacs is in that too...also in Star Wars Rebels as I just found out...and now I get this grin on my face because its Jason friggin Isaacs an actor whose talens I now admire so much because...Lorca gave him the opportunity to play a nuanced, three dimensional, complicated character for the first time...and certainly the only time I know of. And he just nails the role. The second biggest reason I love Lorca so much is because he should've been something new and unique in Trek. A STARFLEET Captain who is morally neutral. Morally gray. If I was to put this into my favorite DND terms he is Chaotic Neutral...at best. And someone who, despite his morals and decisions gets questioned (probably as a means to set up the it twist more then anything) he is still portrayed as the 'good guy' more often then not and his decisions are usually portrayed as being the right ones. Hell this is the kind of thing that Starfleet officers and even heroes usually do 'disobey authority in order to get something morally right done'. Except...he is a renegade. He is a very practical man who eschews traditional morality, is about getting the job done no matter what. He sometimes goes about it in a horrible way...playing the distress call for the crew was horrible, but it helped prove the point. But yet despite all of this despite the potential of him honestly having the potential of being my second favorite Trek Captain...the little bad ass he was...with such an amazing performance from Isaacs...they ruined all of this by turning him into a bog standard bad guy. *sigh* Anyways anyone who has sat in Discovery's Captain's chair is quite amazing and I look forward to Saru's turn...unless they get someone else.
And the final thing, not my favorite thing but it is fascinating...I was a bit wrong about Burnham in my last post. Her heal didn't actually exist. Sure she still is acting a lot less pure Vulcan in the first two episodes...but she wasn't acting as human as I thought she was either and it took my wife pointing it out for me to fully realize. So she is the inverse to Spock which is what makesher and Tyler very interesting...and well can't say I am liking the character more but she is actually more fascinating this time through.
Which brings me to the negative...something else I kind of brought up last time but...I really think this is a show that does not quite live up to the grasp of its own ambitions. It strives so hard to bring up huge phislophical ideas...and it is something that is a thing right now with long standing franchises the idea to deconstruct the franchise and more or less challenge some of its internal ideas and ideals about some of the good guys. Star Wars did it, it seems like Doctor Who is doing it (though I stopped watching Who so I'm only getting it third hand), and Disco did it. There is so many wonderful ideas and themes presented. The idea of hybridization is HUGE. Tyler, Burnham, Lorca, Georgiu, can all be described as hybrids. Mirroring and mirror ideas are important and Michael blending the moral lines with Lorca/ Georgiu and also mirroring with what Tyler is going through. And...Burnham we know ends up upholding SF ideals at the end of season 1 but it feels earned because its one of the only times that these ideals have truly been challenged. Though DS9 probably did it much better by introducing Section 31 and In the Pale Moonlight.
But Yet BUT YET its like with season 1 they didn't have the courage to follow it through to its natural conclusion. I have commented on this before and I keep on doing it. Lorca went to our universe, was exposed to Federation ideals, actually lived and aped Federation ideals despite being a bit of a hardass...and yet when he reveals himself he goes all muhahaha. I cannot stress how much of the golden opportunity they missed by showing it and making it clear that our universe effected Lorca too. That Lorca didn't just rub off on Burnham and tempted her to the darkside but our universe softened him. He could still be the badguy, but not a black bad guy, but more of a grey character. Season 1 is quite good, this show is quite good...but that one decision really ruined a lot of its momentum for me and probably why its not my favorite Trek.
But all this does make me look forward to season 3 because if they do the Andromeda route it would really, really work...because we have seen Burnham already struggle with what it means to have Federation ideals. She's already knows why those ideals are so important so she is really the perfect character to light the flame of civilization again. Though it will be curious to see who her foil will be...
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Post by colfoley on May 21, 2020 9:34:41 GMT
Two more eps of Discovery down...and well I WILL be brief.
I never realized before but there is actually a rather big pothole in season 1. What did the ISS Discovery get up to in OUR universe while the USS Discovery was in theirs...because I forget exactly how long it is but I know there is a little time displacement towards the end so that would mean that ISS Discovery was in our universe for quite awhile....but no mention of them other then the fact they flipped.
And well there is a lot of phemonal acting performances in this show. Man oh man some great actors. Ash Tyler really knocked it out of the park, Jason Isaacs later Anson Mount, Georgiu's actress, Stamets, Saru on and on it goes...whichh is weird, I mean I am not really an expert on acting per see but sometimes Burnham seems a little...still and over the top every now and then. Just another one of the weird oddities about this show.
...But my wife has declared she loves this show so there is that.
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Post by colfoley on May 24, 2020 9:13:00 GMT
Finished season 1 of Discovery...again.
I think I have commented before but season 1 should've ended on them getting home, and the cliff hanger that they had 'lost the war'. As much as I loved season 2 and probably wouldn't really change a thing in hindsight those final arcs were rushed as hell. Give the mirror universe those two more episodes to really expand upon it and flesh out the ideas more and then give the end of the Klingon War arc a bit more attention...but that would've missed out on Pike so...yeah good idea. Also ooh boy speaking of being rushed those two 'no actually' ass pulls are really annoying. OMG WE LOST THE WAR DUN DUN DUN...well actually we haven't and the Federation is still in the fight. WE ARE OUT OF SPORES...well actually we can just magic up a new supply. Ugh.
So beyond that though Burnham's arc is actually another really textbook positive change character. Granted I don't think its executed quite as well...as I have mentioned...but all the skeletal framework is there if you want to teach someone how to write.
And despite my issues with Lorca's arc at the mirror universe arc, Jason Issacs still did a really great job acting on it. And season 1 ends in a really satisfying manner really.
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Post by KaiserShep on May 25, 2020 11:01:06 GMT
Good News! Hopefully they will get it right with this show! "A classic Star Trek show the deals with optimism and the future!" only thing I'm really worried about is it'll be a bit...episodic. however Anson Mount and Ethan Peck should be charismatic to pull it off. Being episodic would probably serve more in its favor. At least when it has a bad plot, it doesn’t have to commit to it for an entire season, much like it was for every other Star Trek series.
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Post by AnDromedary on May 25, 2020 19:47:33 GMT
Yesterday, I watched a bunch of very interesting interviews with Rock Berman (one of the lead producers on Sta Trek from TNG to Enterprise).
There are some pretty cool stories and perspectives in these interviews. One the I really liked was his take-away from some of Roddenberry's main rules for Star Trek:
My ears pricked up when he said (paraphrasing): One of Roddenberry's main rules was that humanity in this future has grown beyond petty squabbles and the like. Therefore, conflict could not arise between the main characters but had to come from the outside, which was often very difficult for the writers.
I actually like the new Trek stuff that we have but one has to admit, that this axiom of Roddenberry-style Trek writing has been very thouroughly dismantled for all the new stuff, be it the Abrams movies, Discovery or (and especially) Picard. In all those new shows, basically all the conflicts arise from within the main characters themselves.
Anyway, when you clock that video, I am sure youtube will direct you to the rest of the clips from this interview series. Some really cool stuff in there from stories about casting the TNG crew through the conceptions of DS9 and Voyager all the way to him reflecting on some of the less popular decisions they made on Enterprise.
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AnDromedary
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Nov 10, 2016 16:30:09 GMT
November 2016
andromedary
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Post by AnDromedary on May 25, 2020 19:49:36 GMT
Oh yea, and by the way ... I saw they revealed the logo for Trump's new "Space Force" the other day. I wonder how long it will take before CBS starts their law suit for copyright infringement.
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