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Post by Sartoz on Oct 12, 2017 11:22:20 GMT
-(_ANTHEM_)-
ESRB is receiving calls to classify loot boxes in games as a form of gambling. I'm somewhat surprised but this can change a game's rating to AO (adult only). Obviously, sales will be impacted.
However, the Gambling Commission is the one that must clarify this issue before ESRB / PEGI can take action. Bet you the game industry is watching.
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Sanunes
N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sanunes on Oct 12, 2017 11:56:42 GMT
Not sure what this has to do with Anthem since we don't even know what they are doing to do with microtransactions.
I live in the Canada so my opinions are more aimed to the direct of the ESRB, but I be the publishers and other companies will have just as much pressure on the ESRB to say they don't violate the legal definition of gambling which is why they are unregulated right now. If they want any real change in North America I think either PEGI would have to make the change and I am not sure what they can do or the definition of gambling that the courts use would have to be updated first.
Edit:
Otherwise they could open a big problem for other retailers as well. Because something uses gambling techniques and people don't like it doesn't mean it can be regulated like that. Think of the old way Steam did sales, according to a few articles I read that should have been considered gambling because of the techniques they were using, but since they didn't hit key elements it was in bad taste, but not something that could be regulated.
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Post by Pounce de León on Oct 12, 2017 13:28:45 GMT
Imo, it sure isn't a price and business model that should be directed at minors.
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Sanunes
N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sanunes on Oct 12, 2017 16:11:21 GMT
I think that considering the level of pay-to-win we just saw in Battlefront 2, and the SP cheats for sale in Shadow of War, it's probably safe to assume that Anthem will have them as well. The way the gaming industry is going about this, it's probably the best example of a slippery slope I've seen in awhile. They are not likely to stop either barring a nasty backlash. Mobile gaming monetization models here we come. [removed video] It will take more then backlash for the backlash has been around for a long time by now and they make minor changes when it might be a PR problem, but overall the systems are still in place and I don't think they are going anywhere. Even if there is legal challenges and regulation things will be tweaked enough that they are following the rules while still having systems like this in place. Look at what happened with Valve and their marketplace, they changed enough of their systems to show people couldn't cash out of the items and nothing else changed after the entire gambling fiasco of CS:GO. That probably would have been where regulators or other enforcement entities could have made a difference, but Valve did just enough to keep them away. Even with China they were mandating that the loot probability be published for lootboxes and Blizzard tweaked the systems enough that they don't have to do that either. The problem isn't people that look at information like this on the internet, but the causal type of player that "plays for fun" and doesn't really go to the internet to talk about games and practices. If the information over the years from SuperData Research is correct even if there is more vocal backlash, more people each year are buying. I saw a statistic online the other day that Assassin's Creed: Syndicate made $5 million from its Helix Credit implementation and that was a straight up buy virtual currency and buy exactly what you want.
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Post by Cyonan on Oct 12, 2017 18:42:18 GMT
This isn't going to be solved by any outside organization stepping in to try and forcefully stop this practice. Even if you could somehow get lootboxes ruled as gambling, then you'd be left with microtransactions in the form of just simply being able to directly buy things. Battlefront 2 would still be pay to win and anti-consumer, but now you wouldn't have to put up with the randomnes from cards and could just directly buy all the most OP shit.
The only thing that's going to stop these sorts of practices is gamers not rewarding it by throwing money at developers when they do it, but unfortunately I have to agree with TotalBiscuit here in that Battlefront 2 will probably be stupidly successful despite being a pay to win game with a $60 entry fee.
and it will only encourage that EA continues to do that in future games. I could easily see Anthem adopting it.
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N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sanunes on Oct 12, 2017 18:46:41 GMT
This isn't going to be solved by any outside organization stepping in to try and forcefully stop this practice. Even if you could somehow get lootboxes ruled as gambling, then you'd be left with microtransactions in the form of just simply being able to directly buy things. Battlefront 2 would still be pay to win and anti-consumer, but now you wouldn't have to put up with the randomnes from cards and could just directly buy all the most OP shit. The only thing that's going to stop these sorts of practices is gamers not rewarding it by throwing money at developers when they do it, but unfortunately I have to agree with TotalBiscuit here in that Battlefront 2 will probably be stupidly successful despite being a pay to win game with a $60 entry fee. and it will only encourage that EA continues to do that in future games. I could easily see Anthem adopting it. I think there is a big difference between Battlefront and what BioWare offers. Battlefront 1 sold if I am remembering correctly 12 million copies, which is what they are counting on with Battlefront 2 because it is the Star Wars IP. BioWare is on a tougher road right now and taking a risk like this could sink the game because it doesn't have the buffer that Battlefront probably will have, if Battlefront 2 loses a million sales from what Battlefront 1 does it still made EA money. If Anthem loses a million sales it could make the game unprofitable, now if Anthem is widely successful then there might be a much larger chance for an invasive system like the card system for Battlefront, but I can't see them wanting to take such a risk on a brand new IP that has been in development for so long. Edit: Just to be clear, I am pretty sure there will be some type of microtransaction system, but I don't think it would be as invasive as what Battlefront 2 is offering.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Oct 13, 2017 1:35:23 GMT
PEGI is not itself a government nor a law enforcement body -- though governments and regulations may reference it. So if it's just PEGI we're talking about, this is more a marketing and PR issue than a legal one.
Where it might get interesting in the USA is if the government decides to apply the Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act to online games that allow purchase of lootboxes by way of credit cards or bank transfers. This is what killed online poker in the USA. The teeth to the law has to do not with whether the game can be sold or not, but how the online payments are made for lootboxes. If the government decides the game violates the UIGEA, it can shutdown the banks and credit card fulfillment companies that make microtransactions work, and prosecute the devs of the game.
Not that that is likely. The government would have to prove that lootbox RNG creates some kind of potential for financial loss (not emotional, not yet anyway).
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N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sanunes on Oct 13, 2017 3:09:27 GMT
PEGI is not itself a government nor a law enforcement body -- though governments and regulations may reference it. So if it's just PEGI we're talking about, this is more a marketing and PR issue than a legal one. Where it might get interesting in the USA is if the government decides to apply the Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act to online games that allow purchase of lootboxes by way of credit cards or bank transfers. This is what killed online poker in the USA. The teeth to the law has to do not with whether the game can be sold or not, but how the online payments are made for lootboxes. If the government decides the game violates the UIGEA, it can shutdown the banks and credit card fulfillment companies that make microtransactions work, and prosecute the devs of the game. Not that that is likely. The government would have to prove that lootbox RNG creates some kind of potential for financial loss (not emotional, not yet anyway). I live in Canada, but my understanding is that to be considering gambling by the legal standards is you need to be able to exchange the items back into real money. So unlike online poker where there was money going both ways right now loot boxes are a one-way street. So for something like that to come into effect they would either need to show that people are being allowed openly to trade their items back into money or change the laws so that isn't a requirement to define gambling.
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Post by Cyonan on Oct 13, 2017 6:16:22 GMT
This isn't going to be solved by any outside organization stepping in to try and forcefully stop this practice. Even if you could somehow get lootboxes ruled as gambling, then you'd be left with microtransactions in the form of just simply being able to directly buy things. Battlefront 2 would still be pay to win and anti-consumer, but now you wouldn't have to put up with the randomnes from cards and could just directly buy all the most OP shit. The only thing that's going to stop these sorts of practices is gamers not rewarding it by throwing money at developers when they do it, but unfortunately I have to agree with TotalBiscuit here in that Battlefront 2 will probably be stupidly successful despite being a pay to win game with a $60 entry fee. and it will only encourage that EA continues to do that in future games. I could easily see Anthem adopting it. I think there is a big difference between Battlefront and what BioWare offers. Battlefront 1 sold if I am remembering correctly 12 million copies, which is what they are counting on with Battlefront 2 because it is the Star Wars IP. BioWare is on a tougher road right now and taking a risk like this could sink the game because it doesn't have the buffer that Battlefront probably will have, if Battlefront 2 loses a million sales from what Battlefront 1 does it still made EA money. If Anthem loses a million sales it could make the game unprofitable, now if Anthem is widely successful then there might be a much larger chance for an invasive system like the card system for Battlefront, but I can't see them wanting to take such a risk on a brand new IP that has been in development for so long. Edit: Just to be clear, I am pretty sure there will be some type of microtransaction system, but I don't think it would be as invasive as what Battlefront 2 is offering. Even if the game doesn't launch with one, they could always sneak it in later if it does well since Anthem is supposed to be a game that gets support for years after the fact. Though while maybe not with Anthem since it's going to be not too much longer after Battlefront 2, if it does well in that game then I can see EA taking whatever ground they can get in other games in the future with it. It'll start out just being their most popular franchises, then they'll start looking at other games. In either case it would be nice if we could just make this sort of practice unprofitable for EA so they stop doing it.
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Post by Andrew Waples on Oct 13, 2017 12:37:25 GMT
Imo, it sure isn't a price and business model that should be directed at minors. Or anyone for that matter. I think they'll be in the game. I mean, they were ther for ME3, DAI, and MEA. I don't see how this is not considered gambling? All it is-is that it's based on chance. Now granted, you have a better shot a "winning" or getting something good then say actually winning the lottery, but you still don't know what you're going to get inside of those boxes.
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Post by Sartoz on Oct 13, 2017 13:41:14 GMT
PEGI is not itself a government nor a law enforcement body -- though governments and regulations may reference it. So if it's just PEGI we're talking about, this is more a marketing and PR issue than a legal one. Snip -(_ANTHEM_)-
Hm... I'd say marketing and PR would remain the same since EA must sell the game for what it is and not for its potential ESRB/PEGI AO rating. Certainly, the gaming market would shrink = a revenue loss, assuming everything else is equal.
(🌸=◡=)
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Sanunes
N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Prime Posts: 4392
Prime Likes: 882
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Just a flip of the coin.
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Post by Sanunes on Oct 13, 2017 16:24:28 GMT
Imo, it sure isn't a price and business model that should be directed at minors. Or anyone for that matter. I think they'll be in the game. I mean, they were ther for ME3, DAI, and MEA. I don't see how this is not considered gambling? All it is-is that it's based on chance. Now granted, you have a better shot a "winning" or getting something good then say actually winning the lottery, but you still don't know what you're going to get inside of those boxes. Going by the letter Kotaku got from the ESRB is that it doesn't meet the legal definition of gambling which now will require the government to step in to either change the definition of gambling or regulate lootboxes themselves. It seems right now and again according to that letter to Kotaku it will require that players are able to cash out what they get from the boxes before it meets that definition. If a game does meet that definition it will get slapped with an AO rating.
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Post by shinobiwan on Oct 13, 2017 18:33:53 GMT
I'm sure this issue will be before Congress within a few years. Loot boxes prey on the same behaviors that led casinos to be heavily regulated, and EA is arguably the worst offender.
Eventually someone will report a story where someone lost his house and marriage because of a game-related gambling problem and the dominos will fall from there.
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Post by Cyonan on Oct 13, 2017 18:47:39 GMT
When talking about the ESRB they could classify loot boxes as real gambling under their ratings guide and it doesn't specifically have to follow the legal definition of gambling(which is going to vary from country to country anyway) according to what is on their website. The problem is that the ESRB simply just doesn't consider loot boxes to be gambling because "While there’s an element of chance in these mechanics, the player is always guaranteed to receive in-game content (even if the player unfortunately receives something they don’t want)".
The government could step in and label this sort of thing as gambling but you run into a whole host of issues and regulations that follow. You basically have to be very careful about how its worded because "exchanging money for random rewards" could include a lot of things including physical card packs for things like MtG but any sort of exception designed to not label trading card games as gambling could be exploited by publishers to allow loot boxes in games without it technically being gambling.
Though it technically being gambling or not aside, what people actually want is for the ESRB to rate games with loot box systems as being AO. This has the side effect that most retailers wont stock AO games, making it effectively a death sentence for games to have that rating which strong arms publishers into not putting stuff in their game that results in a AO rating. The problem is that if they made loot boxes give an AO rating then publishers could just tweak it so it's "not technically loot boxes" but still very similar.
This is the sort of thing that gamers have to decide we don't want to reward publishers for doing. We can't expect the ESRB/PEGI to play mommy for us every time the industry does something we don't like.
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N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Prime Posts: 4392
Prime Likes: 882
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Post by Sanunes on Oct 13, 2017 21:44:28 GMT
This is the sort of thing that gamers have to decide we don't want to reward publishers for doing. We can't expect the ESRB/PEGI to play mommy for us every time the industry does something we don't like. It certainly would be nice, wouldn't it, however, realistically, I don't see gamers managing to push back against this. There's the fanboys that make excuses for everything the corporations do, there's the "casual" majority that simply doesn't care and likely not even aware, etc. Sure, the controversy can make life a little bit more complicated for publishers, but when it comes to mass-appeal games like Battlefront 2 or Shadow of War it's likely not going to matter in the end. Is government interference is the solution? I hope not. But one has to consider how exploitative these monetization models are. The mobile gaming industry is making tons of cash out of manipulating kids (and adults) via psychological traps which are rather similar to gambling in many cases. I agree, I think the population of people that play games that really want lootboxes to go away is really small and from my experience people who don't pay attention don't even want to talk about it. I was talking to a co-worker about the problems I had with the Tribute DLC for Shadow of War and his response was "I don't care". It felt like he knew how much I was into games and wanted me to be okay with it to justify his position, but in the end he didn't care really about my opinion on the problems I saw.
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Post by Cyonan on Oct 13, 2017 23:15:27 GMT
This is the sort of thing that gamers have to decide we don't want to reward publishers for doing. We can't expect the ESRB/PEGI to play mommy for us every time the industry does something we don't like. It certainly would be nice, wouldn't it, however, realistically, I don't see gamers managing to push back against this. There's the fanboys that make excuses for everything the corporations do, there's the "casual" majority that simply doesn't care and likely not even aware, etc. Sure, the controversy can make life a little bit more complicated for publishers, but when it comes to mass-appeal games like Battlefront 2 or Shadow of War it's likely not going to matter in the end. Is government interference is the solution? I hope not. But one has to consider how exploitative these monetization models are. The mobile gaming industry is making tons of cash out of manipulating kids (and adults) via psychological traps which are rather similar to gambling in many cases. If gamers aren't going to push back enough against this sort of practice, one has to question if anything even really needs to be done unfortunately. As much as I personally wish we'd push back to the point where it wasn't profitable, clearly the majority of gamers don't feel the same as I do and either don't care or actively like the practice. On top of the fact that you'd need multiple governments to pass regulations about this in order for it to make enough of a difference, it's not like there aren't other highly exploitative practices with micro-transactions that aren't random loot crates. We would basically just be trading one exploitative practice for another. At some point if this is going to stop then gamers are the ones that are going to have to put a stop to it. We can't really expect the government or ESRB to step in and attempt to strong arm publishers and developers every time they do something that we don't like.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Oct 13, 2017 23:55:40 GMT
We are talking about the Skinner Box , which is a core element of most gambling machines (see this: www.theverge.com/2015/5/6/8544303/casino-slot-machine-gambling-addiction-psychology-mobile-gamesThat article is enlightening on this subject. We are watching our hobby become transformed by Las Vegas. I'm sure this issue will be before Congress within a few years. Loot boxes prey on the same behaviors that led casinos to be heavily regulated, and EA is arguably the worst offender. Eventually someone will report a story where someone lost his house and marriage because of a game-related gambling problem and the dominos will fall from there. It is amongst many sorrows I guess, and pretty much just a first-world problem to be honest - but that's where I live. What a time to be alive :|
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N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sanunes on Oct 14, 2017 0:11:59 GMT
We are talking about the Skinner Box , which is a core element of most gambling machines (see this: www.theverge.com/2015/5/6/8544303/casino-slot-machine-gambling-addiction-psychology-mobile-gamesThat article is enlightening on this subject. We are watching our hobby become transformed by Las Vegas. I'm sure this issue will be before Congress within a few years. Loot boxes prey on the same behaviors that led casinos to be heavily regulated, and EA is arguably the worst offender. Eventually someone will report a story where someone lost his house and marriage because of a game-related gambling problem and the dominos will fall from there. It is amongst many sorrows I guess, and pretty much just a first-world problem to be honest - but that's where I live. What a time to be alive :| The thing is we were impacted by gambling behavior long before lootboxes as well, that article you posted reminded me one critical of the way Valve ran the old Summer/Winter sales and how the way it was setup was compelling gambling triggers as well. Companies have been messing with our minds over the years in different ways to get us to buy their products.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Oct 14, 2017 1:46:16 GMT
The nonstop mobile onslaught of marketing proves your point.
I am tired of it. Black Mirror and Idiocracy seem destined to inexplicably meet in my lifetime. When that happens, get a weapon and bunker down.
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Post by Sartoz on Oct 14, 2017 16:24:18 GMT
-(_ANTHEM_)-
EA provides "clarity" on the contentious Loot Boxes in Battlefront II.
Does EA's explanation remove the fear of a pay-to-win game?
(🌸=◡=)
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Post by Gandalf the Fabulous on Oct 14, 2017 16:40:52 GMT
Not sure what this has to do with Anthem since we don't even know what they are doing to do with microtransactions. Oh come now Sanunes, I am pretty sure we all know what EA is going to do with Anthem and microtransactions, don't really think we need to be told at this point.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Oct 14, 2017 17:04:46 GMT
Not sure what this has to do with Anthem since we don't even know what they are doing to do with microtransactions. Oh come now Sanunes, I am pretty sure we all know what EA is going to do with Anthem and microtransactions, don't really think we need to be told at this point. I have to agree, microtransactions of some form are inevitable. I tried to think up a business model where Anthem succeeds (for EA's definition of success, which is all about money) without micros, and I couldn't. Well, except for one possibility -- the game is sold only through old-school subscription model via Origin Access. But so many other games have failed to survive with that model, that it seems very unlikely. What's less certain is what kind of micros it will have. 100% cosmetic? 100% optional and can be equaled with sufficient, but not ludicrous, amounts of free grinding? Partially mandatory? 100% mandatory? We'll have to wait and see.
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https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.hVm-5wNStlyTEXjhwDoa_wHaEK%26pid%3DApi&f=1&ipt=8f745a5f30b08f8231ddb64664df7375d23cc10878aa50d66fec54e9d570c7e2&ipo=images
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Sartoz on Oct 14, 2017 18:09:43 GMT
-(_ANTHEM_)-
Now the British Parliament gets into the act.
"Daniel Zeichner, Labour Parliamentarian for the constituency of Cambridge, recently submitted two questions to the Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Karen Bradley) regarding the increasingly hot topic of loot boxes in videogames and whether or not they constitute a form of gambling."
(🌸=◡=)
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Hrungr
Twitter Guru
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More coffee...? More coffee.
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Hrungr
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
Origin: Hrungr
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More coffee...? More coffee.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
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Post by Hrungr on Oct 14, 2017 18:15:55 GMT
A lot of good discussion in this thread, and important points on these questionable practices I don't feel I need to reiterate.
As far as Anthem is specifically concerned, I agree it's not a question of if, but one of just-how-invasive MT/paid LBs will be.
Being a new IP, and not one with an established fan/player base, I think they'll just want to get their foot in the door... for the first game. It'll also depend on whether the game is strictly SP & co-op, or will there be PvP as well. If there is a PvP element, I don't expect they'll go the BF2 model right out of the gate. I can't see them risking that kind of negative publicity right off the bat. They would probably lean more towards cosmetic/emotes and maybe minor powerups (a la D2).
But if it's strictly SP & Co-op, I could easily see more gear-based paid LBs.
Anthem 2 however... all bets are off. Especially if the game becomes extremely popular.
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Sanunes
N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sanunes on Oct 14, 2017 21:45:24 GMT
Not sure what this has to do with Anthem since we don't even know what they are doing to do with microtransactions. Oh come now Sanunes, I am pretty sure we all know what EA is going to do with Anthem and microtransactions, don't really think we need to be told at this point. I don't. I am fairly certain they will be part of the game which I have been saying all along, but how they are implemented in the game is something I don't know.
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