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Post by Pounce de León on Oct 18, 2017 14:35:30 GMT
When people talk about rising game dev cost I am not sure whether they properly distinguish between the platforms. Major publishers like to cross market one game across platforms. It's rather common now for major releases, so of course that is a factor for rising cost, but it means a much wider market reach and total sales as well. Effectively, I assume it is a lot cheaper to develop one game for multiple platforms than make a game for a platform each.
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Post by Heimdall on Oct 18, 2017 15:01:26 GMT
When people talk about rising game dev cost I am not sure whether they properly distinguish between the platforms. Major publishers like to cross market one game across platforms. It's rather common now for major releases, so of course that is a factor for rising cost, but it means a much wider market reach and total sales as well. Effectively, I assume it is a lot cheaper to develop one game for multiple platforms than make a game for a platform each. in terms of development costs, its significantly more expensive to develop for four platforms than for one. It is probably more profitable, but the benefit is mitigated.
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Post by Pounce de León on Oct 18, 2017 15:10:01 GMT
When people talk about rising game dev cost I am not sure whether they properly distinguish between the platforms. Major publishers like to cross market one game across platforms. It's rather common now for major releases, so of course that is a factor for rising cost, but it means a much wider market reach and total sales as well. Effectively, I assume it is a lot cheaper to develop one game for multiple platforms than make a game for a platform each. in terms of development costs, its significantly more expensive to develop for four platforms than for one. It is probably more profitable, but the benefit is mitigated. Companies look at the margin. They do what's more profitable. Of course the cost is higher when you slump three publications into one, but there should be a couple of cost savings. Total cost is not a factor when you can finance it (and EA can - I'm pretty sure). It's the return on investment. And for that you try to increase the margin.
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Post by Heimdall on Oct 18, 2017 15:30:37 GMT
in terms of development costs, its significantly more expensive to develop for four platforms than for one. It is probably more profitable, but the benefit is mitigated. Companies look at the margin. They do what's more profitable. Of course the cost is higher when you slump three publications into one, but there should be a couple of cost savings. Total cost is not a factor when you can finance it (and EA can - I'm pretty sure). It's the return on investment. And for that you try to increase the margin. I’m just saying the margin benefit isn’t as great once you factor all the other ways AAA development costs have risen over the years spread across over multiple platforms.
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Post by Pounce de León on Oct 18, 2017 15:40:17 GMT
Companies look at the margin. They do what's more profitable. Of course the cost is higher when you slump three publications into one, but there should be a couple of cost savings. Total cost is not a factor when you can finance it (and EA can - I'm pretty sure). It's the return on investment. And for that you try to increase the margin. I’m just saying the margin benefit isn’t as great once you factor all the other ways AAA development costs have risen over the years spread across over multiple platforms. If they are just fixed cost that would actually matter pretty much. Also, digital sales come with lower cost of distribution. No boxes, no medium, no factory to press disks etc. etc. And the cost for retail sellers: It's not just cost that is avoided, publishers can earn that part of the sale now for themselves.
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Post by Heimdall on Oct 18, 2017 16:19:31 GMT
I’m just saying the margin benefit isn’t as great once you factor all the other ways AAA development costs have risen over the years spread across over multiple platforms. If they are just fixed cost that would actually matter pretty much. Also, digital sales come with lower cost of distribution. No boxes, no medium, no factory to press disks etc. etc. And the cost for retail sellers: It's not just cost that is avoided, publishers can earn that part of the sale now for themselves. Okay, but we were talking about the benefit of developing for multiple platforms.
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Post by Sanunes on Oct 18, 2017 16:25:03 GMT
I’m just saying the margin benefit isn’t as great once you factor all the other ways AAA development costs have risen over the years spread across over multiple platforms. If they are just fixed cost that would actually matter pretty much. Also, digital sales come with lower cost of distribution. No boxes, no medium, no factory to press disks etc. etc. And the cost for retail sellers: It's not just cost that is avoided, publishers can earn that part of the sale now for themselves. There is no disagreement that digital is probably some level of cost savings, but I don't think that can cover the increased costs in game development. According to AskAGameDev again he has stated that development teams of the PS1 era game was only 25 people on average and with the PS3 era its on average 100 people. Now since the PS1 era games cost $50 USD and now they average $60 USD, but I doubt the rise of digital and the extra $10 really can support an extra 300% staff increase.
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Post by Pounce de León on Oct 18, 2017 18:02:34 GMT
If they are just fixed cost that would actually matter pretty much. Also, digital sales come with lower cost of distribution. No boxes, no medium, no factory to press disks etc. etc. And the cost for retail sellers: It's not just cost that is avoided, publishers can earn that part of the sale now for themselves. Okay, but we were talking about the benefit of developing for multiple platforms. What I mean is starting three separate projects each for each platform is gonna be more unprofitable than setting up one big project to launch on all platforms.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 18, 2017 20:09:02 GMT
What's next, not being able to sell children's trading card games because buying packs is "gambling"?
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Post by linksocarina on Oct 19, 2017 1:07:20 GMT
What's next, not being able to sell children's trading card games because buying packs is "gambling"? That is more gambling than loot boxes, because monetary gain can be earned through tournaments and other events. So this article might be something to read. It actually beat me to the punch of attempting to contact folks in the industry to talk about all this stuff. To quote: An interesting note is also this one from a psychological standpoint: There is a lot of good stuff here, ultimately stuff where most of us as layman have no clue about when it comes to the business side of things.
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Post by linksocarina on Oct 19, 2017 3:47:48 GMT
"But according to one studio director - who wished to remain anonymous - it's not just that costs are increasing, but that the disparity between how much publishers are charging and what consumers are spending is also growing. "Development costs of AAA titles are five to ten times the price they were in the '90s," the person told us. "As technology moves forward, costs go up and teams get larger. Salaries also go up in that time both for starters and people employed for those periods of time. Is he claiming that the number of games sold on average remained static since the 90's (which I would find very difficult to believe), or is he conveniently forgetting to mention that factor? The consumer reaction (particularly in the run-up to launch) has the potential to be highly damaging, further preventing publishers from recouping costs and exploring new methods of monetisation. Our anonymous developer pointed to one particular practice that has hindered the debate around loot boxes. "Review bombing exaggerates issues and causes damage to everyone," they say. "Which is why most won't talk about it as they don't want to be targeted unfairly next." Good. I'm glad to see that these things have an effect. I mean, that's practically the only way consumers have to force corporations to acknowledge them and their wishes. It's not like the gaming media has a history of strong consumer advocacy (in fact, the reverse would be more accurate...). So what other option is there? A little bit of wariness is a healthy thing as far as I am concerned. By all means, things of this nature should exist in other markets as well, not just video games. Two things, First, he's talking about prices for games at retail being relatively static. Everything else has increased though. Second, the review bombing is making companies double down on current monetary practices, not discourage them. Again, Pareto Principle. That was the impression given in the full pice at least. The big damage is the fact that they won't be transparent about what they are doing anymore out of fear of the unruly mob. So a lot of it is the opposite effect of what people think it will accomplish.
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Post by Sanunes on Oct 19, 2017 4:51:04 GMT
That doesn't make much sense tbh.
These games got crucified because of a very specific reason, in my view, this was quite justified as well. So this reaction would do what, encourage them to engage in similar practices elsewhere? Well, that wouldn't be very smart of them everything considered, that is if the point is good business rather than acting out of spite or something similarly irrational. (which an entity like a corporation can't really afford).
As for transparency, I don't think we ever really had it to begin with, and besides, that's what journalism is supposed to be about, no? Uncovering dirty corporate secrets?
My guess is that it makes developers not care what players are going to say on a subject if they just become an unruly mob the moment they don't like something. There is always room for discussion, but if a developer feels they cannot communicate what they are doing and the reasons for doing so they are not going to bother. BioWare has already done that by closing the BSN, most of their developers stopped communicating with us for they just didn't know how to handle what was going on there so they moved to Twitter and other social media where they feel they have more control. Edit: I am pretty sure they already feel we don't represent a large portion of the playerbase based on metrics they have had in the past. I know I reference AskAGameDev a lot, but if the ratio is accurate 80% of the people that buy games don't really do any online social media/forums, 15% will only read from those social media locations, and only 5% will communicate publicly about things. So if they are just feeling it is a portion of that 5% that is acting like it is easy for them to start ignoring online players.
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Post by Sanunes on Oct 19, 2017 7:25:44 GMT
My guess is that it makes developers not care what players are going to say on a subject if they just become an unruly mob the moment they don't like something. There is always room for discussion, but if a developer feels they cannot communicate what they are doing and the reasons for doing so they are not going to bother. BioWare has already done that by closing the BSN, most of their developers stopped communicating with us for they just didn't know how to handle what was going on there so they moved to Twitter and other social media where they feel they have more control. Edit: I am pretty sure they already feel we don't represent a large portion of the playerbase based on metrics they have had in the past. I know I reference AskAGameDev a lot, but if the ratio is accurate 80% of the people that buy games don't really do any online social media/forums, 15% will only read from those social media locations, and only 5% will communicate publicly about things. So if they are just feeling it is a portion of that 5% that is acting like it is easy for them to start ignoring online players. Well, as the quote Ocarina provided shows, these reactions do have an adverse effect on sales, which actually shows that what you are saying here isn't all that accurate, or at least isn't showing the whole picture.
At this point I don't really expect them to "communicate", most of them don't bother no matter what anyway, but I do expect them to take into account that certain anti-consumer practices are liable to trigger a reaction.
Again, I think that this is partially the effect of not having decent consumer advocacy from the direction of the gaming media, it generates a feeling among gamers that "if we don't show our dissatisfaction ourselves in the clearest way possible, no one is going to do it for us", and since the corporate suits are certainly not going to care unless you force them to, what you get is things like review bombing and general negative buzz online.
Basically, this is a sort of negotiation: The corporation wants to invest as little as possible while making as much money as possible, the consumer on the other hand wants to pay as little as possible and get the best product possible. (or at least, most corporations are like that, and most consumers) These two interests are obviously directly opposed to each other.
As far as tools go, corporations have at their disposal massive marketing budgets (which is probably used in many cases to buy the support of the popular gaming media, among other things). Consumers on the other hand, are basically "unarmed", and their power is also unfocused and diffused in many cases. This is why something like "review bombing" is such a popular tool, because it's basically the ONLY tool consumers have that actually has any effect.
Sure, you can politely ask questions, you can have discussions online, but that's exactly the part that - as you pointed out yourself - they don't care about. They DO care about money however, and if "review bombing" can effect that, that's something they have to consider.
This is also why calls to abolish user reviews on metacritic or Steam are pro-corporate and anti-consumer, because this is just another way to silence dissent.
I never said they in the past might not have had an impact, my point was more to the future since review bombing and online outrage seems to be happening for anything people feel is a slight against them. In the past people would have a single target about a problem and now it is everything and anything. You can even see recently the mass anger online doesn't always give change for WBIE kept the lootboxes as they described in Shadow of War, now they did change the Tribute DLC but I wonder if it was due to outrage or being afraid of violating international laws. The problem now is focus and since the outrage is not focused do you think developers are going to pull a BioWare and let people make whiter characters because a few keyboard warriors were upset? We haven't see anything about any possible change regarding the Battlefront 2 system, all we got was "it isn't finalized" which means it could easily stay the same and then be finalized. I don't think the mass dislikes on YouTube had any impact on Call of Duty either, even though the next game is being set in WWII I don't think they could have shifted focus that quickly if they were already working on a different theme for the game at the time of Infinite Warfare's PR launch. Being critical is fine for that is the type of feedback they want and if people continue to do that I bet that will get back to developers, but constantly being called liars and cheats ala Jim Sterling I don't think they are going to listen to that feedback. So even though people might be throwing an online sit in over something it doesn't mean that feedback is being listened to, it might be the people on a message board discussing the merits of those exact same systems could be what is being listened to.
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Post by Pounce de León on Oct 19, 2017 10:35:27 GMT
What's next, not being able to sell children's trading card games because buying packs is "gambling"? That is more gambling than loot boxes, because monetary gain can be earned through tournaments and other events. So this article might be something to read. It actually beat me to the punch of attempting to contact folks in the industry to talk about all this stuff. To quote: An interesting note is also this one from a psychological standpoint: There is a lot of good stuff here, ultimately stuff where most of us as layman have no clue about when it comes to the business side of things. The article doesn't really distinguish and dig at the loot box problem. The author throws it all in one bucket, conveniently ignoring that Overwatch got away with it because "it's only cosmetics - it doesn't affect gameplay" (MT apologetics' favoured argument at that time) while gently overlooking the fact that the current outrage stems from lootbox and MT cancer seeping into SINGLE PLAYER modes and paid RNG loot having effect on the gameplay in COMPETITIVE (!) MP environment. I call it industry echo chamber.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Oct 19, 2017 10:48:19 GMT
I am pretty sure they already feel we don't represent a large portion of the playerbase based on metrics they have had in the past. I know I reference AskAGameDev a lot, but if the ratio is accurate 80% of the people that buy games don't really do any online social media/forums, 15% will only read from those social media locations, and only 5% will communicate publicly about things. So if they are just feeling it is a portion of that 5% that is acting like it is easy for them to start ignoring online players. I'm addressing my post at the discussion general, not just yours. If 80% of players don't consult the internet before a purchase (which sounds like a reasonable number), then review bombing and those 5% of toxic haters cannot have that big an impact on sales... I don't doubt that AAA games have become ridiculously expansive to produce. And it is true that prices of games have not gone up in the past 20 years, which is quite remarkable. So there is indeed a problem here if we take only those two factors into account. However, gaming has become mainstream. The playerbase has grown A LOT since the days of basement gaming nerds. Ironically, it's those new casual social multiplayer gamers who now drive sales. It would be industry suicide to ignore this change and not service those players. Publishers/developers aren't just these evil companies that force all of this on people. It's the playerbase itself that ASKS for it. MT wouldn't be a thing if nobody spent any money on it. Companies then DO take advantage of these trends and maximize their profits on consumer behavior in more and more aggressive ways until the playerbase stops playing along. The insidious part, if you want to call it that, is that loot boxes prey upon people's weakness for gambling and instant gratification. Our brains are all the same in that respect and it works on everyone to some degree. We both LOVE and hate how it makes us feel. But there is no doubt that winning in any form makes us happy for a moment. Even if we spent a stupid amount of money to win something that was not worth the money spent to get it. Buying makes us happy. It's the basis of all business. What makes our stupid brains happy is usually harmful to us. Multiplayers are addictive. It's why they are so popular and loot boxes such effective means to get people to spend money over and over. We keep children away from alcohol and cigarettes but now games have become another form of CALCULATED addiction for both adults and kids. And I'm not ok with that. Especially if it's done in ways that is not obvious to the average player or their parents. But addiction isn't even the worst part to me from a gamer's perspective, it's how this new trend kills diversity. If nobody makes (AAA) singleplayer games anymore because it's too much of a financial risk, I might as well not play games anymore and rather read or watch a TV series. Games for me are another form of engaging storytelling. But if they take the story out of games and only focus on trapping people in addiction, don't bother. Then the gaming industry, for me anyway, has lost its purpose. On the other hand, like I said, if games have evolved into something people only play together these days, then the only issue is my own definition. And it even makes sense. Human beings are social creatures. We want to share and compete and gamble and win. Gaming has changed focus. That in itself is not wrong. It's a natural progression that services a DEMAND. It's a tragedy for those to whom games remain private escapism. But there is no point in outrage. Those who enjoy online multiplayers are the ones who have to decide how much they are willing to pay for the experience. This is not my battle. I simply don't play these games and that's that. And if SP games are dying, then all I can do is support those who still make such games or turn my back on gaming altogether. So in a nutshell: yes, it's gambling but people love it and demand it.
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Post by Pounce de León on Oct 19, 2017 11:11:45 GMT
I am pretty sure they already feel we don't represent a large portion of the playerbase based on metrics they have had in the past. I know I reference AskAGameDev a lot, but if the ratio is accurate 80% of the people that buy games don't really do any online social media/forums, 15% will only read from those social media locations, and only 5% will communicate publicly about things. So if they are just feeling it is a portion of that 5% that is acting like it is easy for them to start ignoring online players. .... And it is true that prices of games have not gone up in the past 20 years, which is quite remarkable. So there is indeed a problem here if we take only those two factors into account. ... Maybe it's true for your region, but games used to cost half the current (base) price here.
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Post by PillarBiter on Oct 19, 2017 11:12:41 GMT
I don't think the problem is lootboxing or pay to win per se...
I think that the allowed variance in multiplayer is simply too great. For example, if you can only boost your gun a maximum of 10% if it's maxed out through random loot boxes, it wouldn't matter as much in pvp.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Oct 19, 2017 11:26:15 GMT
.... And it is true that prices of games have not gone up in the past 20 years, which is quite remarkable. So there is indeed a problem here if we take only those two factors into account. ... Maybe it's true for your region, but games used to cost half the current (base) price here. Hm ok. In Germany my childhood SNES games used to cost the same as games today. I know because they still have price tags on the box. I was quite surprised when I realized how expensive games were back then already. Blurays are maybe the only other item here which is priced roughly the same as VHS and DVDs used to cost. In fact, I paid MORE for my box sets back then. As some people have suggested, I would pay more for games if they were decent singeplayer experiences if that helped even out the discrepancy between revenue of SP and MP games with MT.
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Post by Pounce de León on Oct 19, 2017 11:30:47 GMT
Maybe it's true for your region, but games used to cost half the current (base) price here. Hm ok. In Germany my childhood SNES games used to cost the same as games today. I know because they still have price tags on the box. I was quite surprised when I realized how expensive games were back then already. Blurays are maybe the only other item here which is priced roughly the same as VHS and DVDs used to cost. In fact, I paid MORE for my box sets back then. As some people have suggested, I would pay more for games if they were decent singeplayer experiences if that helped even out the discrepancy between revenue of SP and MP games with MT. Dass das mal DM-Preise waren, ist wohl komplett an dir vorbeigegangen?
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Post by Kappa Neko on Oct 19, 2017 11:46:56 GMT
Hm ok. In Germany my childhood SNES games used to cost the same as games today. I know because they still have price tags on the box. I was quite surprised when I realized how expensive games were back then already. Blurays are maybe the only other item here which is priced roughly the same as VHS and DVDs used to cost. In fact, I paid MORE for my box sets back then. As some people have suggested, I would pay more for games if they were decent singeplayer experiences if that helped even out the discrepancy between revenue of SP and MP games with MT. Dass das mal DM-Preise waren, ist wohl komplett an dir vorbeigegangen? Oh, lol. Und nein?! 120-130DM sind bei mir ungefähr das selbe wie 60€...
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Post by Pounce de León on Oct 19, 2017 11:52:29 GMT
Dass das mal DM-Preise waren, ist wohl komplett an dir vorbeigegangen? Oh, lol. Und nein?! 120-130DM sind bei mir ungefähr das selbe wie 60€... You shelled out 120 DM for games back then? PC games were around 60 DM back then and today it's about the same amount in EUR. I guess PC games have caught up to the pricing, lol.
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Gileadan
N5
Agent 46
Clearance Level Ultra
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: ALoneGretchin
Posts: 2,671 Likes: 6,651
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Agent 46
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Clearance Level Ultra
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
ALoneGretchin
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Post by Gileadan on Oct 19, 2017 11:54:43 GMT
I remember ordering my first game ever - "Gunship" by Microprose for the C64 - for 120 DM.
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...lives for biotic explosions. And cheesecake!
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Kappa Neko on Oct 19, 2017 12:04:30 GMT
Oh, lol. Und nein?! 120-130DM sind bei mir ungefähr das selbe wie 60€... You shelled out 120 DM for games back then? PC games were around 60 DM back then and today it's about the same amount in EUR. I guess PC games have caught up to the pricing, lol. Yup. Those were regular console game prices. No wonder my mom bought me so few of them! *g*
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Post by Pounce de León on Oct 19, 2017 12:26:30 GMT
I remember ordering my first game ever - "Gunship" by Microprose for the C64 - for 120 DM. Ah, yes. Those were the times.
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Praise the Justicat!
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Post by Pounce de León on Oct 19, 2017 12:36:25 GMT
I remember trying to figure out how to play Gunship. It was cracked version. We met up three people and I employed my famous press all der key method. 1 took the flightstick, I played keyborad piano, the third leafed through the dictionary. Somehow we figured it out though. Pitch, RPM, even the jamming system and CMs. Pretty good for some schoolboys.
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