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Post by Cyberstrike on Oct 3, 2016 0:19:06 GMT
I think we can all agree Bethesda is WAYY too dependant on modders for their games to be great. I think we can all agree they need to fix their damn engine. I think they are losing their edge. Open worlders are common, and some do it with less bugs and more fun than Bethesda. I'm beginning to think that a lot companies treat modders as a form of slave labor, with the attitude of: "Why should we worry about quality assurance on our part, when we got an army of modders that will fix any major bugs in our games for free and we make better trailers!" Modders can't charge anything for their work because it's supposed to be free and when Steam tried that the backlash was huge against it and not without reason in some cases like IIRC some jackass charging $100 for a mod that lets you see Horse dicks in Skyrim which was stupid. And people wonder why I HATE PC Gaming that is a major reason.
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Post by Innocent Bystander on Oct 3, 2016 2:08:01 GMT
Have you actually tried playing these games with mods? The sheer difference is simply staggering. Never tried nor do I have a reason to try. If I played the game without mods on the ps3, I'm sure I'll be fine without them for the ps4 'Interesting NPCs' mod. Here's several hundreds of reasons.
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Post by straykat on Oct 3, 2016 7:09:21 GMT
I think we can all agree Bethesda is WAYY too dependant on modders for their games to be great. I think we can all agree they need to fix their damn engine. I think they are losing their edge. Open worlders are common, and some do it with less bugs and more fun than Bethesda. I don't think anyone but rockstar has anything on Bethesda's open worlds.. yet. They're still more sandboxy and many more things and AI can be manipulated inside the world. It isn't minecraft, but as far as narrative/action based stuff goes, it's still the best we got. Just plopping a bunch of big landscapes on people is not an open world. Which is what many games are. I agree on the engine though. I bet that's what they're working on. They have the money for it at least....
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Post by crusty on Oct 6, 2016 0:45:58 GMT
There is a horribly spergy essay out there that largely encapsulates my thoughts on Bethesda. Copied and pasted most of it:
Abstraction. The process in which rules, and concepts are derived from the usage of literal, specific examples and events. They are the cornerstone of the RPG genre, because it is by abstraction that we define all interactions within an RPG. It's the ruleset, it's the character system, it's the skill system. It is the foundation upon which roleplaying games are built, because there is no other method upon which to enforce success and failure for actions outside of undertaking the specific action yourself. As such, it is highly tied to the notion that you and your character are separate entities. A rough example, skill checks in RPGs are a form of abstraction. You aren't making a Diplomatic argument yourself in hopes that the Bandit Leader will back down, you are choosing to utilise a pre-defined skill and the game will determine it's success or failure based on semi-random dice rolls or your interaction with the game's systems (skills). There is a layer of abstraction there that the player recognises is necessary for the game to function. And it is a combination of game content and underlying systems that you are able to make decisions and roleplay through those kinds of situations. Furthermore, it is through the interplay of strong systems and content built around it, that creates gameplay depth in RPGs. Not writing or content on it's own. Many people would say that the Knights of the Old Republic games are very well written, but few would argue they contain a lot of gameplay depth. Not gameplay mechanics or systems on it's own either, Pillars of Eternity had very elaborate Stronghold mechanics, as well as factional reputation systems and personal reputation systems. But this only gave the illusion of depth as very few of these mechanics actually played a real part of your playing experience. So it's the interplay of content and mechanics that's important. Because it's that interplay that allows you to experience different things based on how you choose to interact with the game. Games that have stealth systems allow you to complete tasks in different ways. But it only works if the level design and quest design accommodate for it. The roleplaying aspect comes into it by allowing the player to form a consistent mental framework that they rely upon to make decisions in the game. This is true regardless of whether the game focuses on combat (different playstyles and builds), focuses on decision points (different skillsets and dialog options), or focuses on whatever. It's the combination of gameplay content and gameplay systems that creates depth, and a focus on logical abstraction is absolutely critical in ensuring that the players are able to reconcile otherwise unrealistic gameplay content and gameplay mechanics so that their suspension of disbelief isn't broken. Think of Attributes. Having a statistic for physical strength or agility isn't realistic, but it's logical in that you can understand what it means and represents in the context of the game. Bethesda hates abstraction that leads to complexity in game mechanics. Sometimes, this can result in positive changes, removing To-Hit-Percentages in games that utilise real time action combat, like they did after Morrowind, is such a change. This is because enforcing To-Hit-Percentages without also providing adequate visual feedback for the hidden dice rolls, directly contradicts the player's input and as a general rule, that's something you never want to do. They probably could've made a system that works if they made combat slower, weightier and added dodging animations for missed hits, but most of their Action RPG contemporaries opt for removing dice roll combat as well, so I'm not going to fault them on that. That was a positive change, all things considered. Other times however, can demonstrate that the changes aren't so positive, like removing the entire skill system in the lead up to Fallout 4's release. Fallout's SPECIAL system had layered character progression and abstraction systems. The first layer had SPECIAL/Attributes → the second layer had Skills → and the final layer had Perks, each of these represent a different dimension of a character. The originals and NV had Traits, which were pretty nifty too, but not really relevant to the discussion. The Attributes of SPECIAL represented a character's baseline physical and mental characteristics. Strength, Perception, Endurance, you get the idea. Skills meanwhile, represent the range of actions they could undertake, as well as their proficiency in such. Speech, Small Guns, etc etc. Whilst Perks represented an additional layer, extra touches that made your character unique. By merging them all into the one system, the ability for meaningful character customisation is diminished. Did you enjoy dialog skill checks where you demonstrated your handyman skills, your haggling abilities or your scientific knowledge? Or did you enjoy going out of your way to make a flirtacious hearthrob, or even a gay or lesbian character for the explicit purpose of having unique dialog options? You did? Huh, too bad, who needs character customisation in an RPG when the protagonist is VOICED. And that's just one example of why RPG mechanics and more complex systems of logical abstraction are important. So why does Bethesda hate abstraction? Mainstream appeal. It simply comes down to the ability to move more copies and relate their marketing to the largest possible audience. Abstraction in RPGs appear in the form of numbers, mechanics and systems that remind the player that they are interacting with a game. We've all heard of the derogatory comments about “spreadsheet RPGs” and that's what it boils down to. Bethesda's entire marketing angle is hinged on the idea of selling an experience. It's not a “game”, it's an “experience”. The appeal of a fantasy spreadsheet game is somewhat limited, but the appeal of an open world fantasy “experience” where you can “do anything, go anywhere” is much larger. “See that mountain? You can climb it.” The roleplaying genre is merely an anchor upon which Bethesda can promise a unique experience. This is why Bethesda games feel less and less like RPGs to classic RPG fans when each instalment comes out. The systems (regardless of whether they were designed well or not, and in Bethesda's case, they often weren't, giving justification for their removal), the systems that underpin actual roleplaying are chipped away in every new release, to the point where they will soon become indistinguishable from games like Far Cry. Contrary to what some people say, it's not necessarily the wide mainstream appeal that makes the Shallow Sandbox Experience a cancerous philosophy. I don't begrudge a company making popular and successful games. Clearly, it's a winning formula for Bethesda. What I take issue with, is how Bethesda chooses to go about getting that audience. “You can get married in the game, and I had decided to marry this one woman who was my friend. And I forgot that I had done this Radiant quest for this other guy, who it turns out had liked her... I turned around and as she was standing there, I saw another door open to another bedroom and the other guy walked out… If you make him like her, he then visits her every day, and doesn't care if she's married.”[1] Todd “Burch” Howard on Skyrim's unique storytelling By removing abstraction systems and RPG mechanics from each iteration of their games, what needs to happen to keep the same level of quality is to then fill the game with handcrafted content that demonstrate an attention to detail. In a very broad sense, this refers to the scaling scale of content and mechanics, with say Mass Effect on one end, while having Mount and Blade on the other. Daggerfall had a plethora of mechanics, factional gameplay, focus on randomness and a huge landmass that encouraged a genuine sandbox experience. This was scaled down immensely for the tightly designed and more reactive Morrowind. Morrowind is still enjoyable despite suffering many of the same issues that it's successors have. Handcrafted content that reacts to player decisions, as a substitute for open, complex and interactive mechanics. This allows for genuine, interactive roleplaying to occur and is how you can meld gameplay mechanics with storytelling to produce a profound effect on players. In the hands of a truly skilled developer, it is possible to leverage world design, content design (writing, etc) and atmosphere, along with game mechanics to portray an internally consistent universe. It doesn't necessarily have to simulate a fantasy world, but it is one that is able to uphold suspension of disbelief through compelling gameplay and narrative experiences. And the result of that is the high sought after state known as immersion. But what Bethesda does instead, is create a copy of an immersive fantasy world. They do this through simulationist mechanics that operate only on the game's outer surface and through modular design. And the result of that, is a world which, on first inspection, promises meaningful experiences, but delivers on little because there is no real depth to it. It has neither the systems of abstraction that provide interactive roleplaying mechanics, nor the strongly designed content that takes advantage of said mechanics, to truly be a powerful roleplaying experience. How many times do you hear gamers, “journalists” and even developers ask, sometimes beg you to use your imagination to paper over the logical gaps and holes in Bethesda's writing and world design. Bethesda games often have impressive feature lists compared to their RPG competitors. In the overwhelming majority of cases, these features are advertised and even praised as “optional content”. They are made utterly unimportant to the experience as a whole. Basically, they feature zero inherent meaning or depth. This is why Bethesda games have breadth, but not depth. Features like Marriage in Skyrim, ironically divorced from the rest of the game. The mechanic itself is also shallow, just wear a necklace and if they like you enough, off you go. It is a surface-deep system that is functionally equivalent to a mini-game. And Bethesda games are becoming increasingly filled with them. Todd's cuckoldry anecdote plays out entirely in his head, and although moments and experiences like that can be memorable, they are incidental, rather than intentional on the game's part. As a result, they ought to be supported by a foundation of strong gameplay mechanics and content. However, Bethesda isn't selling games, they're selling “experiences”, and little anecdotes can help to sell that image to players. In every new iteration of either Elder Scrolls or Fallout, the significant changes they make reflect this direction. By that, I mean removing roleplaying mechanics and interwoven content, instead relying on poorly simulation systems segregated from the rest of the game to create an imitation fantasy world. The result? Bethesda are creating hollow worlds. Worlds that require the player to find meaning and depth of their own accord. Admittedly, there is a lot of interesting lore shown through text and notes in Bethesda games, but how relevant are they to the actual game? The Imperial Library makes for comfy reading on a Sunday afternoon, but when the lore is mostly ignored, irrelevant or even contradicted at times by what you do in the game, then you can't attribute that as a positive for the game's design. Any “emergent” story exists to support and enhance what's already there, whether it is meaningful content design, or meaningful gameplay mechanics and design that lead to a variety of unique situations. Depth through quantity (Daggerfall) or quality (Morrowind). While all this might seem like a good thing, finding your own meaning, it actually encourages players (and the media) to view the games with an uncritical eye. It's this attitude that enables Bethesda to violate basic narrative principles in the way they create their worlds. It even allows them to push the responsibility onto the playerbase for things that they should do themselves, such as maintaining suspension of disbelief, as well as maintaining a logically coherent in-game universe. This reason why this is bad, is because it conditions the audience into accepting blame when they are dissatisfied with the final product. When companies provide them with objectively bad writing, and objectively cut down gameplay mechanics, they're told to “roleplay” and use your imagination. Somehow it's the player's fault. And companies aren't motivated to do better because they are never held to account for what they produce. “Just pick up the game and play… It's Elder Scrolls, be what you want, do what you want.” [2] Craig “DIY fan” Lafferty “One of the things we do, particularly given 2the success of Skyrim, is you get a lot more data on how people experience an open game, so we don’t want to give that up. We will sacrifice certain things to make it completely open, and whereas in other games you can be on a quest or something, on our game, we can be on every quest at once.” [3] Todd “Infinite Quests at the same time” Howard Bethesda pride themselves on a design philosophy that emphasises player freedom. To this end, they have always stressed on removing barriers from the player's path and promoted the idea that the player is responsible for their own story. It's an empowering concept, but also a flawed one with how they design games. They remove mechanical complexity in their games under the guise of streamlining and accessibility, while designing games that are modular in nature. Marriage is separate from guild progression is separate from faction progression is separate from house building is separate daedra artefacts is separate from the main quest. They're all segregated by design. Supposedly, this is done to maximise the amount of activities a player can undertake in a single playthrough. Do anything, be anything, avoid saying no to the player. This goes back to the idea that Bethesda create shallow sandbox experiences, resulting in a fake immersive world that exists only on the surface, rather than actually containing the properties of an immersive world. Nowhere is this sentiment more pronounced than with the introduction of “Essential NPCs”. First featured in Oblivion, certain NPCs were flagged as unkillable because Bethesda didn't want to jeopardise their quest content. On the face of things, this sounds reasonable. However, they are marketing a game that promises “freedom” and the ability to “do anything, be anyone”. Between Oblivion, Fallout 3 and Skyrim, over 20% of the game's population is rendered invincible. Bethesda are so afraid of the thin veneer of their games being shattered, that they insulate the player from any kind of meaningful failure or consequence. So, despite the robust feature set, and large landscape, their games fall apart very quickly once you tread away from the path they've carefully constructed. Other sandbox games retain the ability to provide the player with meaningful gameplay experiences based on their interplay of mechanics and world alone, even if quest content is lost, ignored or failed. Daggerfall had this in spades. Morrowind, to a lesser extent. Beyond exploration (which in itself is made risk free and convenient), there's not much else in Bethesda games that can keep a player's attention. Which is a weird statement to make about a company that prides itself on massive worlds and player freedom, but it goes to show that Bethesda's sandbox freedom as seen in their newest titles, is a falsity, and exists only on the game's surface. But it goes further than that. In post-Morrowind Elder Scrolls, this paradoxical obsession with risk-free player freedom has meant that Bethesda actively shies away from designing mutually exclusive content in meaningful ways. In Morrowind, guild progression was gated via skill proficiencies. You couldn't advance in the Fighter's Guild unless you impressed key figures in the Guild (quests/tasks) and demonstrated skills relevant to being a Fighter. By the time Skyrim came around, these “restrictions” were removed for the sake of accessibility, leading to the potentially absurd situation of your Arch Mage not even knowing basic spells. Guild Questlines no longer offer the player the feeling of progression and mastery. What they offer the player instead, is a linear narrative story that ends in the player advancing up the ranks for contrived reasons. The player feels like a tourist being led around, as opposed to feeling like a Guild Member. In addition, the segmented design of these questlines ensure that there is no conflict between them, despite the clear enmity that they demonstrate for one another in the story. In Morrowind, choosing a Great House brought you into conflict with the others. Choosing the Fighter's Guild brought you into conflict with the Thieves Guild, and so on. You could play several sides, but there was always a breaking point where you were forced to choose. When combined with the advancement mechanics within these power structures, it allowed the player to invest in what they were doing emotionally, because it was underpinned by significant time and gameplay investment. When you don't build on a strong foundation of investment and appropriate reactivity, questlines that otherwise emphasise choice result in meaningless choice. This is why one of the questlines that actually features mutually exclusive content in Skyrim (the Civil War) is so bland. It's toothless, Bethesda is intent on not allowing players to miss out on meaningful content as a result of their choices. What happens is that they blunt any potential impact choices could have on their game. You can still shop and make small talk with the guards in Solitude dressed with Stormcloak garb after killing the Emperor and taking over several Imperial Fortresses in the area. If your decisions lack meaning, then how can you feel like you're playing your own story? Fallout 3 had 200 different endings if you can believe it, how many of them actually felt meaningful and unique? The focus on “freedom” to the detriment of reactivity and investment on part of the players is key to why Bethesda's games ironically have few real choices, why the games are shallow in nature and why they are poor as roleplaying games. In response to these criticisms, people are told to “roleplay” and “set limits” without any real understanding of how roleplaying as a gaming genre and concept is distinct from a generic idea of “playing pretend”. Super Mario Bros. as a post-modern analysis on race relations, told through the fevered dream of an olympic high jumper desperate to liberate his gold princess from the clutches of a foreign rival; holds the same narrative weight as the idea that a Dragonborn became Arch Mage was because his political prowess and leadership overpowered the need to be a formidable wizard. Logically, they occupy the same level. Simply put, the developer shouldn't be given credit for depth and meaning that isn't actually in the game. “However, with Morrowind I think we saw that our kind of game appeals to a wider audience, given the game's success among more casual gamers who are neither "hardcore" nor "RPG geeks." It turns out people like the kind of options and freedom we give them, and the pretty graphics don't hurt either.” [4] Gavin “Believe his honesty” Carter This, essentially, explains why Bethesda chooses to design their games the way they do, better than I could ever hope to explain. Games that appeal to wider audiences of casual gamers, not RPG fans, not core gamers. People who enjoy “options”, “freedom” and pretty graphics. I wholeheartedly acknowledge that the many changes Bethesda has made over the years have made the games more palatable to a wider audience, the sales figures from Morrowind, to Oblivion and to Skyrim are proof of that. By removing abstraction and logical restrictions on the player, Bethesda sacrifices genuine roleplaying, worldbuilding and gameplay challenge for the sake of marketing their “open” “experiences” to a wider audience. But by chipping away at the foundations of their game's mechanics for faux simulation and relying on modular design, they've discouraged wholehearted investment into their games. Emphasising a “pick up and play” mentality, where nothing is meaningful, they're creating disposable games with little inherent worth. It's the anathema of immersion. The deeply unfortunate aspect about all of this is that commercial success equals quality in the game industry. Bethesda's design philosophy of Shallow Sandbox Experiences is essentially like junk food. There's no inherent wrong in enjoying junk food. It's cheap, quick, disposable, popular, and it's tasty. However, you wouldn't claim that McDonalds is the best restaurant in the world. Or that Twilight is the best book ever writen. Yet, this is what Bethesda games are to the roleplaying genre. For all the vitriol levelled at the Call of Duty franchise in the gaming community, Bethesda makes the Call of Duty equivalents in the RPG genre. The problem is that due to Bethesda's success, we have seen a generation of game designers and gamers who are hoodwinked into believing that the Bethesda Shallow Sandbox Experience is the only way to create immersive open world RPGs, based on the ways Bethesda presents an immersive open world RPG on the surface. When the truth is that they are so far removed from it, that attempting to compare the two is almost insulting. For all those claiming that Bethesda games are still pure RPGs because of “stats”, every game can be boiled down to stats and numbers. That's just the nature of computer software. What makes a roleplaying game isn't necessarily stats, it's how they're used and what they represent. Basically, abstraction. Now, if you hate traditional RPGs, if you like the direction that Bethesda is going, then more power to you. They do what they do specifically to attract a mainstream audience. So the people who support what they do vastly outnumber those who don't. I just happen to be part of that minority, and I hope that developers, designers or gamers who read this can understand the perspective from which it is written before dismissing it as a whole. Because at the rate that Bethesda are “streamlining” their games, Elder Scrolls VI and Fallout 5 will become functionally identical to game series like Far Cry.
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Post by The Hype Himself on Oct 6, 2016 0:59:35 GMT
^ Jeez man. Now that's just nitpicking, innit?
As for me, I've always thought Bethesda was meh and overrated.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2016 5:02:16 GMT
Ah, Bethesda. Fuck you. Just straight up. YOU... HAVE... A.... TERRIBLE ENGINE FOR OBLIVION AND YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED. I can't even... Fricken, I can't even play the game fullscreen mode before it decides to freeze up and I'm forced to retreat. They clearly only care about their peasant race for Oblivion.
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Post by Heimdall on Oct 6, 2016 15:30:48 GMT
Well, they just announced that they worked out a deal with Sony to get mods for Fallout 4 and Skyrim remaster on PS4 (with the catch that apparently Sony wouldn't let them do it unless they created a special creation kit and restricted modders from using any assets not included in the game itself)
So, that's nice for me.
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Post by straykat on Oct 6, 2016 16:19:53 GMT
Well, they just announced that they worked out a deal with Sony to get mods for Fallout 4 and Skyrim remaster on PS4 (with the catch that apparently Sony wouldn't let them do it unless they created a special creation kit and restricted modders from using any assets not included in the game itself) So, that's nice for me. Well, that still sucks. Some of the better mods use in-game assets, but expand on them. For example, there's dynamic companion dialogue mods.. that use the VO's from the game, but splice or combine dialogue from shared characters who used the same VO's. This way, someone with Mjoll's actress will sound as good as Mjoll did - and then some. It's also used for popular Serana mods. Some mods use various in-game assets, but relocate and modify them a bit to make some areas even better. For example, making the Winterhold ruins more impressive or cities more decorated or lively. Some of the best mods are player created companions. Like Inigo (Kajiit), who has a custom skin and his own custom voice actor (who's actually good). This kind of stuff makes the game on par with Bioware level banter. Lastly, some just outright improve and create new scenarios that are as good as in-game content. Like "World Eater Beater" makes the Alduin fight far more epic. It's boring otherwise. The same creator, Trainwiz, is kind of brilliant. He does almost sci-fi shit, like the original lore creator Michael Kirkbride (from Morrowind). Like the Wheels of Lull
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Post by Heimdall on Oct 6, 2016 16:32:56 GMT
Well, they just announced that they worked out a deal with Sony to get mods for Fallout 4 and Skyrim remaster on PS4 (with the catch that apparently Sony wouldn't let them do it unless they created a special creation kit and restricted modders from using any assets not included in the game itself) So, that's nice for me. Well, that still sucks. Some of the better mods use in-game assets, but expand on them. For example, there's dynamic companion dialogue mods.. that use the VO's from the game, but splice or combine dialogue from shared characters who used the same VO's. This way, someone with Mjoll's actress will sound as good as Mjoll did - and then some. It's also used for popular Serana mods. Some mods use various in-game assets, but relocate and modify them a bit to make some areas even better. For example, making the Winterhold ruins more impressive or cities more decorated or lively. Some of the best mods are player created companions. Like Inigo (Kajiit), who has a custom skin and his own custom voice actor (who's actually good). This kind of stuff makes the game on par with Bioware level banter. Lastly, some just outright improve and create new scenarios that are as good as in-game content. Like "World Eater Beater" makes the Alduin fight far more epic. It's boring otherwise. The same creator, Trainwiz, is kind of brilliant. He does almost sci-fi shit, like the original lore creator Michael Kirkbride (from Morrowind). Like the Wheels of Lull Yeah, it's not great. Still, I appreciate that Bethesda managed to make this much happen despite Sony's belligerence about mods.
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Post by straykat on Oct 6, 2016 16:45:36 GMT
That's too bad, but I suppose it's better than nothing. It might keep from many old mods or mod creators from it, since they may not want to juggle multiple rules.. but you'll still get some useful things.
Sony seems to be completely clueless on what the Bethesda mod community is capable of. Like they think it's just good for minor things or cheating modules... or something.
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Post by Daft Arbiter on Oct 6, 2016 18:47:12 GMT
I'm pondering what lessons (if any) Bethesda learned from Fallout 4's release and what it means for their next games. One of my favorite things about Morrowind is the main questline's pacing. This is also one of Fallout 4's greatest weaknesses. After you report to Caius Cosades, Caius tells you to get more experience and build a cover identity before he can give you new assignments. He even gives you some recommendations, and has you speak to other Blades agents on Vvardenfell to receive training and miscellaneous goodies to jump-start your adventuring. You can go back to him and continue the main quest at any time you'd like.
Similarly, after a few additional quests from Caius, he once again tells you that you can go and do your own thing before speaking to him.
Later in the game, when you're acknowledged as Nerevarine, Vivec gives you plans for fighting Dagoth Ur; these plans emphasize being prepared before setting off to fight him. It's also mentioned either by Vivec or his instructions that fighting Dagoth Ur isn't even particularly urgent, as it's quite possible that Dagoth Ur and his minions could be held off for centuries at the rate that the Tribunal's power is weakening. If you've played much of Fallout 4's main quest, you'll recognize this disparity between the two games. Oblivion had this problem as well. Skyrim not so much, but still to a certain degree. Ultimately in these games, you can play the main quest whenever you feel like. But to me, it doesn't feel right breezing through the main quest as a low level character. It also doesn't feel right putting it off when there's elements to the story that imply urgency (a kidnapped child, an apocalyptic invasion, or someone working on eating the world). The urgency of completing the main quests is something that I hope gets addressed in the next TES game.
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Post by Lorn on Oct 7, 2016 9:44:04 GMT
I'm pondering what lessons (if any) Bethesda learned from Fallout 4's release and what it means for their next games. One of my favorite things about Morrowind is the main questline's pacing. This is also one of Fallout 4's greatest weaknesses. After you report to Caius Cosades, Caius tells you to get more experience and build a cover identity before he can give you new assignments. He even gives you some recommendations, and has you speak to other Blades agents on Vvardenfell to receive training and miscellaneous goodies to jump-start your adventuring. You can go back to him and continue the main quest at any time you'd like.
Similarly, after a few additional quests from Caius, he once again tells you that you can go and do your own thing before speaking to him.
Later in the game, when you're acknowledged as Nerevarine, Vivec gives you plans for fighting Dagoth Ur; these plans emphasize being prepared before setting off to fight him. It's also mentioned either by Vivec or his instructions that fighting Dagoth Ur isn't even particularly urgent, as it's quite possible that Dagoth Ur and his minions could be held off for centuries at the rate that the Tribunal's power is weakening. If you've played much of Fallout 4's main quest, you'll recognize this disparity between the two games. Oblivion had this problem as well. Skyrim not so much, but still to a certain degree. Ultimately in these games, you can play the main quest whenever you feel like. But to me, it doesn't feel right breezing through the main quest as a low level character. It also doesn't feel right putting it off when there's elements to the story that imply urgency (a kidnapped child, an apocalyptic invasion, or someone working on eating the world). The urgency of completing the main quests is something that I hope gets addressed in the next TES game.The problem being, that's something that people "loved" about Fallout 4. They actually felt inspired to go out and find/save demon baby Shaun.
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Daft Arbiter
N3
Wealth beyond measure, Outlander.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR
Origin: dasriboflavin
Posts: 275 Likes: 325
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Wealth beyond measure, Outlander.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR
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Post by Daft Arbiter on Oct 7, 2016 18:29:15 GMT
I'm pondering what lessons (if any) Bethesda learned from Fallout 4's release and what it means for their next games. One of my favorite things about Morrowind is the main questline's pacing. This is also one of Fallout 4's greatest weaknesses. After you report to Caius Cosades, Caius tells you to get more experience and build a cover identity before he can give you new assignments. He even gives you some recommendations, and has you speak to other Blades agents on Vvardenfell to receive training and miscellaneous goodies to jump-start your adventuring. You can go back to him and continue the main quest at any time you'd like.
Similarly, after a few additional quests from Caius, he once again tells you that you can go and do your own thing before speaking to him.
Later in the game, when you're acknowledged as Nerevarine, Vivec gives you plans for fighting Dagoth Ur; these plans emphasize being prepared before setting off to fight him. It's also mentioned either by Vivec or his instructions that fighting Dagoth Ur isn't even particularly urgent, as it's quite possible that Dagoth Ur and his minions could be held off for centuries at the rate that the Tribunal's power is weakening. If you've played much of Fallout 4's main quest, you'll recognize this disparity between the two games. Oblivion had this problem as well. Skyrim not so much, but still to a certain degree. Ultimately in these games, you can play the main quest whenever you feel like. But to me, it doesn't feel right breezing through the main quest as a low level character. It also doesn't feel right putting it off when there's elements to the story that imply urgency (a kidnapped child, an apocalyptic invasion, or someone working on eating the world). The urgency of completing the main quests is something that I hope gets addressed in the next TES game.The problem being, that's something that people "loved" about Fallout 4. They actually felt inspired to go out and find/save demon baby Shaun. It's also something a lot of people hated. Most people I know who played Fallout 4 also disliked the pacing for reasons similar to mine. But that does suggest a big problem. There are two opposite opinions on how to approach one of the most important parts of the game. When that happens, how does one decide which route to go?
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Post by Lorn on Oct 8, 2016 0:27:51 GMT
The problem being, that's something that people "loved" about Fallout 4. They actually felt inspired to go out and find/save demon baby Shaun. It's also something a lot of people hated. Most people I know who played Fallout 4 also disliked the pacing for reasons similar to mine. But that does suggest a big problem. There are two opposite opinions on how to approach one of the most important parts of the game. When that happens, how does one decide which route to go? All of my friends loved it, they claimed they actually had an incentive to do the main quest now. Then again, my friend's aren't too keen on being intelligent either...
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Post by straykat on Oct 8, 2016 9:33:44 GMT
It's kind of hard to avoid the main quest really. And like someone was saying above, since there's a baby involved, it feels urgent.
Skyrim, I think, does a good job at having the main quest blend with the big hubs fairly well. You get involved with Whiterun, then the sewers in Riften which is near the Thieves Guild, Winterhold, etc.. And you usually need to join those guilds (at least somewhat) to get access to ward walls. It's not perfect, but you can explore a lot of content this way. If you want to do more guild stuff later, that's optional.
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Toyish Batphone
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate
Posts: 293 Likes: 437
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bayonethipshot
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate
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Post by Toyish Batphone on Oct 9, 2016 9:18:26 GMT
CD Projekt Red is the only real good developer left, IMO. The rest is a mess.
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Primordial Walker
N3
Lemme tell you about a porcupine's balls; they're small and they don't give a shit!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 500 Likes: 1,799
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Lemme tell you about a porcupine's balls; they're small and they don't give a shit!
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Primordial Walker on Oct 9, 2016 13:06:05 GMT
The dumbfucks shoulda made Blackmarsh or Valenwood, not cookie cutting a new Skyrim based on mods that people made, thus reselling it for profit. GG brah.
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Post by straykat on Oct 9, 2016 13:38:58 GMT
The dumbfucks shoulda made Blackmarsh or Valenwood, not cookie cutting a new Skyrim based on mods that people made, thus reselling it for profit. GG brah. new skyrim based on mods? what are you talking about? The biggest improvement at least for PC users isn't anything a modder can do. It's making it 64 bit. That engine is way too old.. scripting and bloat is a nightmare. The graphic improvements are just icing on the cake imo... and a good feature at least for console users. They'd never be able to get a mod that changes the innards like this -- even with the new mod capability on consoles.
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Post by dzejkob on Oct 9, 2016 14:10:04 GMT
CD Projekt Red is the only real good developer left, IMO. The rest is a mess. I would say they are currently best, i would also add that Amplitude studios seems good. In many cases developers aren't ones to blame (or at least entirely) publishers take the biscuit quite often (ea with mass effect 3, Jo-woods with gothic 3, ubisoft with settlers 7 as few examples)
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Primordial Walker
N3
Lemme tell you about a porcupine's balls; they're small and they don't give a shit!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 500 Likes: 1,799
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Lemme tell you about a porcupine's balls; they're small and they don't give a shit!
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dervishwalker
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Primordial Walker on Oct 9, 2016 14:11:03 GMT
People have made mods on PC from Skyrim that improves graphics, framerate, more intelligent AI, bug elimination, etc.
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Post by straykat on Oct 9, 2016 14:37:54 GMT
People have made mods on PC from Skyrim that improves graphics, framerate, more intelligent AI, bug elimination, etc. Yes, but these can't run on console. The only mods that will work on console will be the one-click, drag n drop variety. Anything that messes with scripting, needs specific placement in lord order, etc.. will not work. So it's good that Bethesda stepped in, in this case. But as for 64 bit, any PC modder would want this. That's the only PC benefit really.. but it's a needed one.
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Primordial Walker
N3
Lemme tell you about a porcupine's balls; they're small and they don't give a shit!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 500 Likes: 1,799
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Lemme tell you about a porcupine's balls; they're small and they don't give a shit!
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Primordial Walker on Oct 9, 2016 15:31:36 GMT
lolconsoles
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Post by straykat on Oct 9, 2016 15:38:46 GMT
Can you blame them? 86% of Skyrim copies were on console. Master race is fun and all, but it doesn't mean much when just talking about cash. But forget about that. I'm trying to talk about 64 bit. There's only so much PC mods can do with the current engine. Papyrus scripting can cause game breaking bloat. The bad thing is that I expect we won't be seeing people taking advantage of it right away.. and SKSE probably has to be rewritten. I might not even play until Christmas or something.
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Post by masterwarderz on Oct 9, 2016 15:46:05 GMT
CD Projekt Red is the only real good developer left, IMO. The rest is a mess. They got their own issues, mostly dealing with how they treat employees.
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Primordial Walker
N3
Lemme tell you about a porcupine's balls; they're small and they don't give a shit!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 500 Likes: 1,799
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Primordial Walker
Lemme tell you about a porcupine's balls; they're small and they don't give a shit!
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dervishwalker
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Primordial Walker on Oct 10, 2016 8:30:53 GMT
Hybrid master race tbh. Certain games belong on console, Elder Scrolls should not be one of them. So much smoother and better with PC. And as a person who used to be a console only person, it really is a thousand times better. They just want profit, fuck that.
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