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Post by Gandalf the Fabulous on Nov 8, 2017 16:15:33 GMT
Recently somebody involved in the development of Cyberpunk 2077 asked a hypothetical regarding how headshots should work in the players interpretation of what their "dream RPG" would be in relation to differences between player level and enemy level.
Honestly it would depend on what type of game it is we are talking about whether it is a sort of turn based strategy type game like Fallout or Original Sin or whether it is more of a first person/third person action oriented shooter however I would say generally if you are using an arbitrary level difference as your primary method of gating off content you probably need to rethink your design.
But it does raise an interesting question, what purpose do levels serve in a video game any more? Are there better methods? Too often I see in video games and RPGs level used as an arbitrary way to gate off certain content requiring the player to grind out levels to match that of the enemies they are about to fight in order to progress, yet no effort put in to making those levels actually mean anything. Take for instance a game like Baldur's Gate, in that game there is at least some context to what your level and attributes mean in regards to your relative power to the rest of the creatures in the world, you know that bandits, goblins and kobolds are lower level enemies, more advanced enemies like mind flayers and beholders are higher level enemies, you know that when it comes to attributes 10 is average, 18 is exceptional (to give context if your character had strength of 18 they would have strength relative to that of an Ogre) and anything below 9 is below the average range, however in most modern RPGs levels have no real meaning beyond "higher numbers = better", levels seem to be only used as a method of gating off content rather than giving context to how powerful your character is to the rest of the world as low level enemies are identical to high level enemies with the only difference being how much damage they can dish out and take, the only difference between bandits in one area and bandits in another area is the arbitrary number value floating over their head, attributes as well have been devalued as most simply require you to pump points into your primary damage stat and health stat at the expense of all others and by the time you end the game your main stats are 10x what your other stats are, in the end you wonder why bother with a leveling system at all if the only thing that changes is that bigger numbers get exchanged in the combat log?
So I will put it to you, how would you answer the question posed by the Cyberpunk dev and how do you feel about current leveling schemes?
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Post by Pounce de León on Nov 8, 2017 16:56:49 GMT
A headshot is a headshot. End of discussion.
It's about scaling, right? Well, a headshot with a decent weapon is lethal. (Unless there is force field, helmet whatnots) HP should not scale with levels. It didn't do so in pen and paper - why would it need to do so in video rpg game. If OPness is a thing reduce the levels doled out. We don't need 99 ability points that unlock all der skills that are in the game. Didn't feel OP in my pen and paper times neither.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2017 17:10:53 GMT
I am not really into the wandering games, so I like it when areas occur in a certain sequence so you can follow the story. I have no problems with this ability always hits idea, but I do not like one shot kills on my character, so I guess it is unfair to the opponents as well. But, then, again, they are AI, and it looks good.
All and all, I like leveling more than gearing and crafting, as long as the skill aquistion is not locked beyond obscure things, like vendors or crafting or grinds. I liked it in JE when you acquired the powerful forms when you killed demons as you went through the story naturally.
Okay, after all that rambling, what I want is a cool linear story progression with the easy skills acquisition that keeps my character balanced vs content, so that the question posed does not even arise.
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Post by AnDromedary on Nov 8, 2017 17:14:57 GMT
I kinda like how it's done in the Deus Ex games. 1. Level Ups mainly give you new abilities. Thus, they increase your options in terms of gameplay. This makes sense to me. You don't want the player to have all abilities at once (or even have them all in one playthrough). So the player has to choose which abilities to get and thus which gameplay to perfect. Do they learn hacking, stealth or gunplay-related skills?
2. I am kinda ok with gun skills. If you are not great with using a certain type of weapon (didn't put any skill points into it), you may have disadvantages compared to your enemies who are trained. This may have different effects: A sniper rifle way waver more in scope view, carrying a heavy weapon may cost more stamina, reload times may be longer, accuracy when hip firing may be decreased, you move slower when using iron sights, etc. All of those impairments make sense to me if my untrained character tries to use a weapon they are not familiar with, so it's ok to implement that in the game mechanics. However, if I manage a head shot, even with those disadvantages, that should count as a headshot, I don't like scaling of HP or damage (hated e.g. Borderlands for that).
3. Enemies of "higher level" need to be clearly visible as such from a distance, especially in an open world RPG. Thus, if I see a heavily armored merc, I know they'll be much harder to beat than the street gang member in jeans and a t-shirt. In the case where enemies wear protective gear (like helmets) I am also ok with headshots not being instant-kills but it needs to be clear and recognizable what's going on. Ideally, the player should have access to all the equipment that the enemies do. After all, equipment is also a way to increase a characters power.
That's my take on it (from the top of my head. Seriously, for this kind of setting, I hope CDPR will go with the Deus Ex approach (with improvements of course). It's one of the better RPG/gunplay combinations I have seen.
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Post by Superhik on Nov 8, 2017 17:28:46 GMT
The old player receives ( passive ) buffs is outdated and ruins gameplay, in long run.
What I want to see is more modern retake on old systems, so you level up skills instead. So for each "level up" you earn something like learning point that you distribute to more open, sandbox, create your own, system of skills.
Let's say you have a skill like acrobatics...with each tier, player's animations of jumping, grabbing ledges, falling from height, etc, gradually changes, becoming more faster, more fluid.
Then for each level, you have opportunity to seek out trainers who can teach you special abilities/techniques associated with that skill: like say, wall running.
This way economy would play a part in char building ( always overlooked), and you'd have ton of flexibility to create whatever type of character.
But Enemy lvl 10? No...enemy with lvl 10 Skills. And equipment, visual design, AI, etc.
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Post by Cyonan on Nov 8, 2017 19:07:08 GMT
It depends on the game and the type of it. Namely in how the game expects me to hit things.
In most RPGs you roll dice to determine if you hit and so it would be a called shot, which typically brings a penalty to reduce your attack roll. You have less of a chance to hit, but if you get the headshot then you'll do something like bonus damage or inflict a status effect on them. This system I'm fine with and it's good.
In a more action oriented game like the newer Fallouts where I have to aim manually then I expect it to be pretty much all benefit and no penalty. The penalty is the fact that I have to manually aim and the head is a much smaller target than the body. This is a style of RPG that's more player skill oriented and so it should reflect that.
An enemy that's 10 levels higher than me I expect to be an extremely hard fight as well. In a pure stat based RPG I might even expect it to be an impossible fight, but in the more skill based ones your own personal skill at shooting should be able to somewhat(but not entirely) compensate for it.
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Post by mattig89ch on Nov 8, 2017 21:57:41 GMT
Personally, I'd say it depends on the game type.
In a top down rpg, I'd expect a head shot to do a great deal of damage. In an FPS, I'd expect a head shot to insta-kill, or do incredibly high amounts of damage (taking away half the health bar with a single shot, high).
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Post by o Ventus on Nov 9, 2017 0:49:07 GMT
It depends. Is it a game where "level" only really correlates to things like loadout options, a la Call of Duty? Or a more numbers-focused game in the vein of pen-and-paper RPGs, a la KOTOR? Obviously a headshot should deal more damage than a footshot or a fingershot, but if it's the latter style then I can accept it not being instantly fatal like in most standard shooters. At the very least I would expect some sort of critical hit bonus to damage so that the idea of someone being shot in the head is still clearly communicated as a skillful strike and one that should be dangerous.
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danielhungary
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Post by danielhungary on Nov 12, 2017 13:46:07 GMT
If isn't like in the Witcher 3 ( no xp for low level quests ) or Borderlands 2 i guess everything is fine.
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Post by KaiserShep on Nov 13, 2017 5:56:46 GMT
Well, for a normal human enemy, then a proper headshot should have universal results. I prefer progression to really deal with more specialized things, like hacking, languages, perhaps learning more melee abilities and other technical abilities (like being able to fix or build things).
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