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Post by o Ventus on Nov 28, 2017 2:18:19 GMT
Or, why the response to Battlefront 2's lootbox system is abysmal and downright harmful to gaming as a hobby. I was going to post this in the BF2 thread, but ultimately this post is about microtransactions and loot boxes as a whole, only using Battlefront 2 as a springboard.
Essentially, before I write out my novel, the TLDR version is: no, loot boxes are not gambling, and the calls and cries for regulation and government intervention all over a video game is fucking idiotic.
As most people are no doubt aware, Star Wars Battlefront 2 has microtransactions and loot boxes. Rather poorly-implemented loot boxes, one might say if they were being kind. Recently, several governing bodies in various parts of the world have classified these loot boxes and microtransactions as gambling, to have laws and legislation passed to regulate them like they would a casino. But I don't really care what they do, I'm primarily concerned with U.S. law and how *it* concerns itself with gambling, and thus far, the United States has not declared BF2's system of lootboxes to be a form of gambling. In the United States, gambling requires an exchange of money with the explicit chance and willing knowledge that you may get nothing in return. With lootboxes, you are always guaranteed *something*. It may not be the item that you want, but it is *something* nonetheless. Now, assuming the law isn't out and out rewritten, lootboxes are not a form of gambling, period. Of course, that's not a thoughtful and nuanced argument, but it IS definitive insofar as to whether or not a system of microtransactions like this can legally be considered gambling.
To look at it from a more pragmatic standpoint, I draw a comparison between lootboxes and booster packs in TCGs/CCGs. I'm not the first to make this comparison, but it has real merit, and I don't believe that people really think about it enough. To approach it on a very superficial, surface-level point of view: if lootboxes are to be considered a form of gambling, then surely booster packs should be as well. Personally, I don't disagree with the notion; if one is gambling and the other is fundamentally the same system, then the other should be gambling too, weasling one out to be harmful while the other is harmless and innocent is dishonest. Anyway, the most common rebuttal to this line of thought, as far as I've seen, is that booster packs provide you with physical value in the form of the actual, paper cards that you get from them, unlike the 100%-digital product of a lootbox, the idea being that you can recoup your cost by selling unwanted cards. Let's approach this realistically though: you buy a pack for MtG for $4.99 for example, and the pack contains 5 cards, 4 of which are commons and 1 of which is a rare. Keep in mind that MtG is a very old game, close to 25 years old, and one whose market is a niche at best, even among traditionally "geek" circles. You don't want the commons, you have plenty of copies, so you decide to sell them, posting them on eBay or something. Let's just say that you post them at $.99 apiece to make back your money, so you're not taking a loss. Ask yourself: in a game that is approaching a quarter of a century in age, with entire decks premade both from the producer of the game as well as third-party sellers, and with an audience that is not super huge, what are the chances that you will actually sell these cards? Without having to lower the price, at least? Factor in that with any card game, power creep is a very real factor that affects the value of cards, with older and simpler cards becoming less valuable in favor of newer and more powerful cards, and that common that never sells for $.99 probably won't sell for $.79 or $.49 when new cards with better effects are released and people's attention turns to those. The card's value depreciates to such a point that it is effectively a worthless piece of paper that nobody wants.
The rebuttal that booster packs for card games inherently provide value is flawed because it assumes that all cards have similar, if not equal value to each other, and that the introduction or removal of certain cards doesn't have effects on the value of other cards. In short, it displays a lack of understanding behind one of the core game principles of TCGs and CCGs, that being that some cards are simply better than others.
Furthermore, the gaming community at-large, whether it be for video games or tabletop games, has had a very strong history of opposing regulation and government control. When the Columbine massacre occurred and government bodies in the United States wanted to impose restrictions on violent video games, what did people all clamor for? The government *NOT* interfering with their games. Hell, when Jack Thompson tried to rally the morality police and the government to his side and accuse gamers of being sociopathic killers-in-waiting, he was laughed out of his law firm and disbarred. Why then, are people *SUPPORTING* government regulations and restrictions on lootboxes and microtransactions? Not only are they *not* a form of gambling, under the law, but the very idea of supporting federal intervention like this reeks of hypocrisy and a "well it's alright when I agree with it" kind of mentality. Anything to stick it to the evil EA and their goony corporate greed, right? Ask yourself, if laws do get passed to restrict games with lootboxes and EA is forced to pay for a special permit for each game that they make with these lootboxes, for example, which do you think is the more likely outcome: that they'll stop having lootboxes in their games, or that they'll just not sell games in that market and save money? If you think it's the former and not the latter, then you're naive and have no idea of a basic grasp of macroeconomics. No industry has ever been made stronger through government regulation.
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Post by river82 on Nov 28, 2017 2:54:44 GMT
I wait for the day where this act of stupidity by the gaming public will lead to strict Government regulation on the industry protecting the good citizens from the ill effects of those horrible shooters.
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Post by vonuber on Nov 28, 2017 10:48:19 GMT
If it's not gambling, why can you not just pay for exactly what you want? Why is it rng based?
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Post by Pounce de León on Nov 28, 2017 11:22:34 GMT
It's not about "gambling" - it's about P2W being shite in games. At least for some.
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Post by ApocAlypsE on Nov 28, 2017 11:29:35 GMT
Frankly, I don't care for the labeling of lootboxes as gambling or not (IMO they are, but that's besides the point). I want this shit to be destroyed and eliminated entirely from the gaming industry, at least the console/PC market, and if it means labeling it as gambling in Belguim or wherever, I'm all for it. It still leaves the regular MTX in which is a problem by itself. Where are the days when victory was determined by who was the most skillful rather who has the fattest wallet? I have enough of this crap in real life to deal with.
The community is biased towards what it sees as anti-consumer practices. Banning violent video games is considered anti-consumer, thus the community is against it. The MTX lootboxes are considered an anti-consumer practice, so the community is in favor of banning it.
In the end of the day, what are you suggesting? What is your point? Are you defending MTX lootboxes? Are you in favor or against government regularization? MTX= Microtransactions btw
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Post by Heimdall on Nov 28, 2017 12:17:56 GMT
Whether loot boxes are regulated or not, I just want publishers to be afraid that they will be.
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Post by jaison1986 on Nov 28, 2017 12:27:00 GMT
Whether loot boxes are regulated or not, I just want publishers to be afraid that they will be. I don't think you understand. If they start to be regulated, the government will never, ever stop from doing it. And if they are not regulated, and give it enough time, the publishers and devs will realize the heat is gone and they will resume the same old practices that got them into trouble in the first place.
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Post by TheHeroOfFerelden on Nov 28, 2017 12:40:41 GMT
If you're spending your money for something that ain't certain,well,that is gambling in my book.Be it tcg boosters or lootboxes...
Microtransactions are the bane of gaming imho and should be abolished asap!
Call me naive or clueless but i firmly believe buying a game has to lead to the buyer purchasing a complete product ,not the game's bare bones. Not to mention the P2W aspect that was mentioned above!
Certainly,the gaming industry has had humongous growth in the last decade or so ,and as an industry,profit is the number one priority. For the microtransaction model to be present,that probably means that it is profitable,but still,i doubt any gamer would be sad to see it gone...
I'd like to mention an old farcical incident from my country(Greece),that while not immediately relevant to the subject at hand ,demonstrates the effects of a bad goverment in gaming.
In the early 2000s ,the local goverment having suddenly deemed gambling as a truly harmful activity,decided to legislate against slot machines. The law was so poorly written though,that it lead in addition to the ban of all arcade machines(!)...(Bye,bye,pacman and house of the dead cabinets) Apart from the reactions within the borders, the brilliant law also imposed sanctions in our country.You see the brains of the Greek Parliament have forgotten that our country is a member of the European Union, violating basic principles of free movement of goods and services. Years passed and Greece did not comply, with fines increasing.The Greek government has therefore agreed to pay around 3,500,000 € a year because it was bored of trying and legislating rationally...
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Post by Heimdall on Nov 28, 2017 12:52:22 GMT
Whether loot boxes are regulated or not, I just want publishers to be afraid that they will be. I don't think you understand. If they start to be regulated, the government will never, ever stop from doing it. And if they are not regulated, and give it enough time, the publishers and devs will realize the heat is gone and they will resume the same old practices that got them into trouble in the first place. I understand that perfectly. But in the short term, I want publishers to be wary of consumer backlash of the practice. At the very least, I want EA too scared to put something like this in Anthem.
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Post by river82 on Nov 28, 2017 13:18:49 GMT
I understand that perfectly. But in the short term, I want publishers to be wary of consumer backlash of the practice. At the very least, I want EA too scared to put something like this in Anthem. Damaging a long term positional advantage for a short term tactical gain solely to register displeasure is shortsighted at best, and the height of idiocy at worst. And what exactly will regulation do? Keeping in mind that Blizzard gets around China's anti-gambling laws by giving loot boxes away for free with the purchase of in game currency. Does anyone actually think regulation will stop the spread of loot boxes? And does anyone actually think the threat of regulation will work? EA reportedly only backed down because of Disney, not because gamers kicked up a huge protest. The only way for companies to back down is if consumers make the practice unprofitable for them, end of story. Gamers trying to get the Government to create anti gambling laws will just end up screwing everybody over in the long run for no actual gain.
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Post by Gandalf the Fabulous on Nov 28, 2017 13:43:24 GMT
To be honest I am not sure how to feel on government regulation in this regard, I will start off by saying that microtransactions and loot boxes are shit and lootboxes are a form of gambling, but do we really want to see the government step in and start regulating video games? I mean if you start asking the government to regulate lootboxes and gambling in video games for our own protection then really what is to stop them from overstepping their bounds and regulating other aspects of video games that might be deemed harmful because the average Joe is too stupid to know what is good for them. Already in Australia we see the government overstepping it's bounds by "protecting" it's citizens from violent and naughty imagery in video games like anal probes and naughty sex scenes used as a reward, also apparently Australian citizens are too dumb to realize that taking drugs wont give them superpowers so they needed to ban any scenes that imply that there are drugs that might do that. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_banned_video_games_in_AustraliaWhile I absolutely despise microtransactions and lootboxes in $60 games I despise censorship even more, and while I wish microtransactions and lootboxes would disappear from the industry in the end people need to take responsibility for their own actions instead of asking for the government to step in and protect them from their own stupidity. Microtransactions and lootboxes only exist because people keep spending money on them, nobody is forcing anyone to play these games or buy the microtransactions and as much as I wish people would stand up and start voting with their wallets I can't stop people from enabling these practices. It really is a hard question to answer, do we trust in people's free will even if it means allowing them to go down a self destructive path or do we concede that the general populace are too stupid to know what is good for them and need government regulation to protect them from bad influences? Edit: of course that is not to say I would be terribly broken up if the government banned the practice of lootboxes in games however if they extended their reach beyond that I would be upset.
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Post by Heimdall on Nov 28, 2017 13:45:16 GMT
I understand that perfectly. But in the short term, I want publishers to be wary of consumer backlash of the practice. At the very least, I want EA too scared to put something like this in Anthem. Damaging a long term positional advantage for a short term tactical gain solely to register displeasure is shortsighted at best, and the height of idiocy at worst. And what exactly will regulation do? Keeping in mind that Blizzard gets around China's anti-gambling laws by giving loot boxes away for free with the purchase of in game currency. Does anyone actually think regulation will stop the spread of loot boxes? And does anyone actually think the threat of regulation will work? EA reportedly only backed down because of Disney, not because gamers kicked up a huge protest. The only way for companies to back down is if consumers make the practice unprofitable for them, end of story. Gamers trying to get the Government to create anti gambling laws will just end up screwing everybody over in the long run for no actual gain. Why are people responding to me like I’m endorsing regulation?
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Post by linksocarina on Nov 28, 2017 14:25:45 GMT
Eh,
We need some regulation on this if people find it predatory, but government oversight is probably not the best idea, it would just stigmatize games further than they are in the case. Most of the cries for regulation are hinting at games being children toys still, I was hoping we were beyond that stereotype.
I don't think it's gambling either, at least in the traditional sense, but I do think that they can find a middle ground to this, or at the very least we would need to be savvy to the monetary schemes. Pick and choose and all that. Self policing, essentially.
Problem is we tend to be too broad brushed with such things. The community by and large can't deal with nuance.
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Post by o Ventus on Nov 28, 2017 17:18:24 GMT
If it's not gambling, why can you not just pay for exactly what you want? Why is it rng based? Did you actually read the OP?
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Post by o Ventus on Nov 28, 2017 17:21:01 GMT
Frankly, I don't care for the labeling of lootboxes as gambling or not (IMO they are, but that's besides the point). I want this shit to be destroyed and eliminated entirely from the gaming industry, at least the console/PC market, and if it means labeling it as gambling in Belguim or wherever, I'm all for it. It still leaves the regular MTX in which is a problem by itself. Where are the days when victory was determined by who was the most skillful rather who has the fattest wallet? I have enough of this crap in real life to deal with. The community is biased towards what it sees as anti-consumer practices. Banning violent video games is considered anti-consumer, thus the community is against it. The MTX lootboxes are considered an anti-consumer practice, so the community is in favor of banning it. In the end of the day, what are you suggesting? What is your point? Are you defending MTX lootboxes? Are you in favor or against government regularization? MTX= Microtransactions btw My point is that people who support the government regulation of lootboxes and microtransactions in games are gigantic hypocrites. Personally, I'm fine with lootboxes and microtransactions as long as the contents within are cosmetic and don't affect gameplay. Overwatch's system is a good way to go about it, all you get are things like skins and emotes, and you earn lootboxes through normal gameplay at a consistent rate that doesn't require a ton of grinding.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2017 18:25:21 GMT
Do we need another lootbox thread??? Dont we already have like 4???
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Post by simit on Nov 28, 2017 18:40:47 GMT
The problem, for me, isn't mtx it's paying the price for a triple A game then having your full progression system put into a rngesus box where they've put the grind for them at a abysmal pace well unless you pay more then your fine, im fine with mtx heck i supported the cartel market enough in swtor or the platinum market in warframe not be fine with mtx, what im not fine with is paying £50 for a game an having the full progression lumped into a freaking box, by all means have a huge unmissable store with neon lights, big tittied woman an morgan freeman narrating all the great cosmetics you have up for grabs but ffs grow a brain and actually just put cosmetics in it, believe me if ppl like your game enough an it has consistent replay value they will eat those cosmetics up an ask for more.
EA an the rest of the greed publishers asked for this spotlight to be put on them, for to long they pushed an pushed an now ppl pushed back, good on them i say an the hypocrisy an stupidity i seen was from them standing over one of the biggest IP's in the world an drolling an rubbing there greasy wee hands together at the thought of the 'stupid' masses about to buy there drivel. Big fat lol to them from this wee peon
MXT in triple A game is fine aswell as dlc etc etc, hell i'd like nothing more than a good game to be supported enough with consistent dlc an a cosmetic shop that i can buy an play for months maybe even years just dont put progression in a crate an expect me to buy into it.
If EA decided to stop selling there games in UK cause of goverment regs? Tbh i wouldn't miss them, i'd be wee bit annoyed i never got to play Anthem i suppose but im a big boy an i'd soon move on, but if that happened in UK then tbh it would have happened first in EU an if it happened in EU, well it wouldn't, EA wouldn't stop selling there little franchise fifa in Europe
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Post by CHRrOME on Nov 28, 2017 23:22:07 GMT
I think this situation may be tied to something like a cultural/regional/personal type of standpoint. Depending where you grew up, which country and all that, you may consider the loot boxes to be completely okay. Some others like me consider it gambling due to having chance and uncertainty involved. Perhaps if someone grew up in Vegas, they'd see loot boxes as fair game, since the whole city is a Casino (not judging btw).
I was wondering though. If I pick a 50 cent slot machine, and rig it up to always spit at least 5 cents, would that machine be considered gambling still by everyone? You put 50 cents and get at least 5 cents in return, you may get 10 dollars, you may get your 50 cents back, but always something. Since you're always getting something of value in return (because I could rig it to spit "fuck you" notes too), would that be considered gambling?
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Nov 29, 2017 1:53:12 GMT
Speak for yourself about hypocrisy and stupidity in "gaming community."
I don't care about gambling, I am not a gambler and never will be. I want to buy an entertainment product and pay for it, once.
Hypocrisy and stupidity is thanking companies for finding new and more inventive ways to increase their profit despite not increasing the quality of their product. Hypocrisy and stupidity is being grateful that you have the choice to Pay-To-Win.
How is it a fair game, if people can tilt the table? How is that fun? Is it fun for the majority of the playerbase?
Edit: and, you're right, no business has benefited from government regulation. But the people working for them sure as fuck have. Your selective memory regarding history is not accidental, so what is your real point here?
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Post by smilesja on Nov 29, 2017 18:51:01 GMT
To be honest while I do want the game developers to make loot boxes less explotive I do not want the government to regulate the games. They’ll find a way to mess it up and we may all suffer the concequences.
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Post by o Ventus on Nov 29, 2017 20:34:47 GMT
I think this situation may be tied to something like a cultural/regional/personal type of standpoint. Depending where you grew up, which country and all that, you may consider the loot boxes to be completely okay. Some others like me consider it gambling due to having chance and uncertainty involved. Perhaps if someone grew up in Vegas, they'd see loot boxes as fair game, since the whole city is a Casino (not judging btw). I was wondering though. If I pick a 50 cent slot machine, and rig it up to always spit at least 5 cents, would that machine be considered gambling still by everyone? You put 50 cents and get at least 5 cents in return, you may get 10 dollars, you may get your 50 cents back, but always something. Since you're always getting something of value in return (because I could rig it to spit "fuck you" notes too), would that be considered gambling? Legally, I would think so, since both parties are exchanging money. With a lootbox in a video game, you're not paying for the items inside the box, you're paying for the box.
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Post by o Ventus on Nov 29, 2017 20:43:17 GMT
Speak for yourself about hypocrisy and stupidity in "gaming community." I don't care about gambling, I am not a gambler and never will be. I want to buy an entertainment product and pay for it, once. Hypocrisy and stupidity is thanking companies for finding new and more inventive ways to increase their profit despite not increasing the quality of their product. Hypocrisy and stupidity is being grateful that you have the choice to Pay-To-Win. How is it a fair game, if people can tilt the table? How is that fun? Is it fun for the majority of the playerbase? Edit: and, you're right, no business has benefited from government regulation. But the people working for them sure as fuck have. Your selective memory regarding history is not accidental, so what is your real point here? Not one of those things that you list are hypocrisy. Stupidity, sure, but not hypocrisy. There's no standard being violated. No, my memory is not selective, I tend to remember things rather well if it's important to me. I simply don't buy games that have microtransactions and business models that I disagree with. Like Battlefront 2 (and the first game). You know, voting with my wallet. I spend my money on games that I feel are more deserving of my dollar and I refuse to support practices that my principles don't align with. My point was pretty simple, I thought: that people who are now clamoring for government intervention who have in the past decried government intervention are hypocrites with weak principles, and that asking for government regulation of lootboxes and microtransactions seems like it's cutting off the nose to spite the face. Like I said in my OP, anything to get at big bad EA, right? After all, they're a horrible company that deserves to collapse and fall, and their demise would only make the gaming industry better, right? My opposition to government interference in business concerning games doesn't mean that I endorse shady and clearly exploitative business practices. Not everything is some sort of fucking conspiracy, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
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In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.
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August 2016
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Jade Empire
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Nov 30, 2017 0:40:54 GMT
But a good cigar is a smoke.
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