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293
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lilyenachaos
Don't grow up, it's a trap.
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lilyenachaos
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by lilyenachaos on Jan 22, 2018 2:29:55 GMT
I'll be happy with dw rogues in DA4 as long as I don't feel like I'm running in circles stabbing air like with DAI. Easy to please.
Don't really have any strong feelings on skill trees, as long as they make sense and are fun I'll be good with it.
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cloud9
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cloud9
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2
sicklyhour015
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Post by cloud9 on Jan 24, 2018 17:11:38 GMT
But that's just the thing. An all skills system allows you to do that. You want to pile nothing but rogue skills on one character and nothing but magic skills on another? Go right ahead. The class just becomes RP/headcanon. Of course, if you want the game world to respond to your character's class, that's a different story. Still possible -- "class" can be turned into backstory, ala Sherpard's Spacer/Earthborn/Colonist trait -- but I could understand why people would find that a lot of trouble for not much gain. For me, a classless system would be wrong for Dragon Age for a few reasons:
Lore- Magic in DA is a genetic recessive that few have access to. Even if Solas permanently brings down the Veil and gives magic to everyone, most people won't know how to use it properly. It would be years before the general populace (assuming they survive) becomes competent at even the most basic spell craft, so most would stick with what they already know.
Tone- All things considered, DA is fairly realistic by fantasy video game standards. Whether sports, martial arts, hunting, computer hacking, etcetera, most people are better at some things than others. A large athletic person will, nine times out of ten, make a better warrior than a smaller, more intellectually inclined person. There are exceptions to every rule, but in my experience this tends to be the case. You could argue that fantasy is more idealized, but like I said DA is and should be more realistic.
Gameplay- As it's been said, being a do anything, One Man Army is great for single character games. But DA has always been about strategic, party based combat. Suppose your PC is a multiclassed God; what will your other 3 party members do? Who will tank and manage aggro? Who will dps and take out adds? Who will provided support and crowd control? If your response is to change DA combat to one character with AI bots, I say there are more than enough games out there that cater to the "hack-slash-pew-pew" crowd. Strategic, party based, pause and play is still unique enough, let Dragon Age stay it's own thing.
And this is why Dragon Age is sucking, and other RPG games are getting better by remaining flexible and not stagnant. Andromeda have a classless system so why can't they do the same with the next game? As far as I'm concerned there are no excuses.
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 25, 2018 2:46:40 GMT
Once again, because having strategic pause and play with 3 other role based party members is what the core of Dragon Age combat is based on. You knew this when you bought the games, but now you want to go to a Chinese restaurant and complain that they have no pasta. There any number of other games that allow classless soloing, why is it so bad that DA offers an alternative? Do you really want to destroy more of DA's unique identity for another homogenous design? Um... don't many Chinese restaurants actually have pasta?
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 25, 2018 2:53:13 GMT
Gameplay- As it's been said, being a do anything, One Man Army is great for single character games. But DA has always been about strategic, party based combat. Suppose your PC is a multiclassed God; what will your other 3 party members do? Who will tank and manage aggro? Who will dps and take out adds? Who will provided support and crowd control? If your response is to change DA combat to one character with AI bots, I say there are more than enough games out there that cater to the "hack-slash-pew-pew" crowd. Strategic, party based, pause and play is still unique enough, let Dragon Age stay it's own thing. I'm not convinced that this is a realistic concern. In classless PnP games nobody plays a multiclassed God, because being able to do anything makes you mediocre at everything. I don't know why this would suddenly work better in a CRPG, although a player could always turn the difficulty down and make anything work. As for "one character with AI bots," that's how I'm playing DAI right now. (Literally; it's paused in another window.)
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Post by Walter Black on Jan 25, 2018 4:15:51 GMT
Once again, because having strategic pause and play with 3 other role based party members is what the core of Dragon Age combat is based on. You knew this when you bought the games, but now you want to go to a Chinese restaurant and complain that they have no pasta. There any number of other games that allow classless soloing, why is it so bad that DA offers an alternative? Do you really want to destroy more of DA's unique identity for another homogenous design? Um... don't many Chinese restaurants actually have pasta? Ok, poor metaphor .
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Post by Walter Black on Jan 25, 2018 4:16:29 GMT
Gameplay- As it's been said, being a do anything, One Man Army is great for single character games. But DA has always been about strategic, party based combat. Suppose your PC is a multiclassed God; what will your other 3 party members do? Who will tank and manage aggro? Who will dps and take out adds? Who will provided support and crowd control? If your response is to change DA combat to one character with AI bots, I say there are more than enough games out there that cater to the "hack-slash-pew-pew" crowd. Strategic, party based, pause and play is still unique enough, let Dragon Age stay it's own thing. I'm not convinced that this is a realistic concern. In classless PnP games nobody plays a multiclassed God, because being able to do anything makes you mediocre at everything. I don't know why this would suddenly work better in a CRPG, although a player could always turn the difficulty down and make anything work. As for "one character with AI bots," that's how I'm playing DAI right now. (Literally; it's paused in another window.) My point was that I played Bioware games for the layered characters and story, not the combat. Let's be honest; in classic Bioware games of old combat was always secondary, designed to meet the needs of the story. First and foremost, they crafted Role Playing Games with epic stories, unique and interesting characters, and divergent player choices. To use another food analogy, combat was the icing; a nice addition that added flavor, but not absolutely essential. In my opinion, the more recent focus on heavy combat without alternate routes has weakened the storytelling, having less resources for alternate choices and outcomes*. Not to mention how the levels feel more linear and crafted for battle scenarios, and less like lived in worlds. Honestly, if getting your adrenalin fix is so important, why are you even playing a story driven RPG, rather than action/hack-n-slash/shooter games? *This combat focused model shows another missed opportunity from classic CRPGs, non-violent options for a pacifist run. Now before anyone whines about being restricted, a good RPG has as many options as possible. More importantly, non-violent does NOT mean goody two shoes; a proper Magnificent Bastard build can lie, bribe, threaten, blackmail, and get others to do destroy their enemies for them without ever being suspected . Thank God companies like Obsidian, InExile , Beamdog and Larian still know how to make good RPGs.
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February 2017
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 25, 2018 6:23:36 GMT
But where does classless vs. class-based come into it?
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CHRrOME
2,805
August 2016
chrrome
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda
666
112 ish
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Post by CHRrOME on Jan 25, 2018 13:56:39 GMT
Combat in general feels too arcadey, movement specially. I've seen AI rogues dodging and moving left and right super fast, whereas player controlled rogues are locked into the same movement patterns or the "snail syndrome" . All classes feel the same when it comes to how they feel, you just have abilities that difference them from each other. It's pretty flimsy if you ask me.
Movement should be different for all classes, warriors would be slow perhaps and rogues would be pretty fast, you get the idea. The cool movements for rogues shouldn't be locked in "abilities" it should be just a movement, no need to add that on a skill bar. Say, press ALT while moving left would do a quick flanking maneuver, etc. Perhaps different moves can be unlocked via skill trees, but keep movement and basic abilities (like parry, block, sprint, etc) out of the skill bar for Andraste's sake.
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Post by Walter Black on Jan 25, 2018 21:21:26 GMT
But where does classless vs. class-based come into it? A character's class isn't just about combat, but a representation of their personal history and beliefs, how they approach problems, who and what they ally with, among others. From a storytelling standpoint, most character classes just go better with certain tropes; warriors work best in war stories, crusading quests, feats of personal power and glory and honor, tyrannical pogroms, etcetera. Rogues evoke swashbuckling and intense noir, high stakes gambling and heists, spies and assassination. Mages involve twisting our preconceived notions of what is real, the value of intelligence and creativity and will over obvious brawn, nightmares and psychedelia. Yes, a good story can combine and twist tropes, but it's good to have a primary base to start with, like Alien being more horror than sci fi, or No Country For Old Men being a modern western. Sure, you could write Batman's adventures in outer space, but he works better in the dark streets of Gotham .
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Addictress
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
Origin: 0bsess
Posts: 741 Likes: 1,236
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78
0
1,236
Addictress
741
August 2016
addictress
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
0bsess
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Post by Addictress on Jan 26, 2018 1:12:24 GMT
Need more harlequins. They didn't fully realize the harlequin theme in DA: Inquisition and I was actually looking forward to the whole 'Venetian' theme back when DA:I concept art was just coming out. I'm sure there's a place for Val Royeaux harlequins in Tevinter.
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Addictress
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
Origin: 0bsess
Posts: 741 Likes: 1,236
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78
0
1,236
Addictress
741
August 2016
addictress
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
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Post by Addictress on Jan 26, 2018 1:13:40 GMT
I mean there weren't enough of them and they weren't given enough screen time.
Only 1 harlequin cut-scene... sorta 2 if you count Florianne's betrayal (on a bad run when you don't make enough alliances)
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alanc9
Old Scientist Contrarian
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February 2017
alanc9
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 26, 2018 2:45:59 GMT
But where does classless vs. class-based come into it? A character's class isn't just about combat, but a representation of their personal history and beliefs, how they approach problems, who and what they ally with, among others. From a storytelling standpoint, most character classes just go better with certain tropes; warriors work best in war stories, crusading quests, feats of personal power and glory and honor, tyrannical pogroms, etcetera. Rogues evoke swashbuckling and intense noir, high stakes gambling and heists, spies and assassination. Mages involve twisting our preconceived notions of what is real, the value of intelligence and creativity and will over obvious brawn, nightmares and psychedelia. Yes, a good story can combine and twist tropes, but it's good to have a primary base to start with, like Alien being more horror than sci fi, or No Country For Old Men being a modern western. Sure, you could write Batman's adventures in outer space, but he works better in the dark streets of Gotham . But absolutely all of that can be done in a classless system. Or a hybrid system like ME:A where the NPCs have classes but the PC does not. What's a rogue but a character who has stereotypical abilities A, B, C, D and any two of E-H?
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Aug 30, 2023 16:01:17 GMT
6,256
PapaCharlie9
3,851
August 2016
papacharlie9
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jan 26, 2018 3:22:14 GMT
The treatment of magic in Dragon Age (elusive, dangerous, attracts demons, only certain people have, and so on...), as opposed to other fantasy video games, was one of the few things that made it interesting to me. Magic wasn't just another poor metaphor for technology in a medieval setting, it was alive again, with it's own rules and prices. If the writers allow Solas to succeed in bringing down the Veil, magic becomes just another mundane dump stat. Worse, DA loses just a little more of it's identity, inching closer to generic fantasy RPGs. What's the point of even having magic if it's indistinguishable from science? We may as well just gadgets and guns.
Okaaay? Not sure how you got that out of anything I said. Because I want my mage to dual wield swords? Or because, to me, buying the mage trait is functionally equivalent to selecting the mage class, during character creation? You're making a leap that I'm unable to follow. You'll be surprised to hear that I agree with you. I don't like it when magic is just tech in disguise either. To be clear, it is one of my fundamental beliefs that strong ties between character creation and lore is bad game design. The character creation/abilities system should be expressive enough to work with any setting or lore. I was a long time D&D player and GM, but GURPS was a revelation to me. You mean, I can use the same rule set for any campaign setting???!? Regardless of genre? And even have cross-genre campaigns? It's a miracle!
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 26, 2018 3:29:24 GMT
Well, not any. GURPS Supers didn't really work.
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papacharlie9
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jan 26, 2018 3:39:55 GMT
Well, not any. GURPS Supers didn't really work. Well, there was a superior alternative. I eventually ended up making my own generic skills-based ruleset, which was a mashup of GURPS, Hero system, BRP (Chaosium) and a few other random systems I liked.
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