inherit
2432
0
403
jnericsonx
315
December 2016
jnericsonx
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Post by jnericsonx on Jan 25, 2018 2:43:54 GMT
I spent the entire time in Hissing Wastes with Cole, Dorian, and Iron Bull. Not only did Cole comfort Bull about his guilt about losing a friend, but he also recounts clearly when Bull rescues Krem. The 3 seconds he imitates Bull was hysterical.
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inherit
4964
0
Jun 17, 2017 17:29:55 GMT
3,700
arvaarad
1,465
Mar 18, 2017 16:32:40 GMT
March 2017
arvaarad
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Jade Empire
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Post by arvaarad on Jan 25, 2018 4:08:38 GMT
I spent the entire time in Hissing Wastes with Cole, Dorian, and Iron Bull. Not only did Cole comfort Bull about his guilt about losing a friend, but he also recounts clearly when Bull rescues Krem. The 3 seconds he imitates Bull was hysterical. I like Cole, but just for the exercise, let me try playing devil’s advocate. Cole does not comfort people out of the goodness of his heart. He’s feeding. And that has some subtle but really important differences vs. normal empathy. Cole feeds on the emotion of “relief”. In Asunder, he created that emotion by shanking people who were being mistreated. Now he’s less murder-y, but there’s a good reason for that. Murder didn’t work long-term. Sure, it gave his victims a feeling of relief, but it also caused a whole mess of panic in the White Spire every time someone died mysteriously. So the net result was... not in line with the emotion he feeds on. With Rhys’ help, he gets a little more clever. He goes after Lord Seeker Lambert. No relief for Lord Seeker Lambert, but possibly some relief for the mages the seeker menaced. Except... whoopsie daisy, still a problem, because he may have sparked off a teensy bit of a mage-templar war. So the net effect is more stress instead of less, again. But. Through all this, Cole gets stronger. Because the sustenance of a spirit or demon is to create that transition into a certain emotion. And you fundamentally can’t have relief without distress happening first. So while Cole has a drive to create more relief, and will try as hard as he can to increase the net relief in the world, he gets stronger when he fucks up. Every fuckup offers more broken people, more opportunities to grant relief. This isn’t coming out of evil intent on Cole’s part. It’s happening because spirits who don’t constantly mess up don’t have as many opportunities to create their emotion. They never grow powerful. They never leave the Fade. They might not even have the power to speak to adventurers. So all the spirits we actually meet are some flavor of cursed monkey paw, causing unintended havoc in their wake. This is the same reason why another compassion spirit is stoking the Warden’s ill-advised scheme to kill the old gods (likely causing all the darkspawn to rise to the surface in an endless Blight). If you cause the world to descend into unending Blight, you have all the more opportunities to remove fear of the Blight. If the Blight was actually fixed, the Nightmare would have no fears to remove — nothing to feed on. Think of Cole’s personal quest. His ultimate expression of his spirit side, of granting relief, is to make the templar forget. But that’s exactly the kind of thing that will give Cole more “business” in the future, because the templar has lost the guilt that might have kept him from participating in someone else’s suffering. While such a result might horrify Cole on a conscious level, on a subconscious level it’s giving him another opportunity to grant relief. To feed. And he’ll get stronger. Cole doesn’t want to fix things. He wants to help. And he will instinctively sabotage perfect outcomes, because they deny him opportunities to help later.
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inherit
2432
0
403
jnericsonx
315
December 2016
jnericsonx
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Post by jnericsonx on Jan 25, 2018 6:15:18 GMT
Well, if it's still a completely unconscious thing.....Cole is still awesome. When he told Cassandra Magister Erimond is a asshole, I burst out laughing.
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inherit
1431
0
Sept 21, 2018 3:04:53 GMT
186
morir_a_solas
140
September 2016
morirasolas
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Post by morir_a_solas on Jan 25, 2018 6:20:50 GMT
I spent the entire time in Hissing Wastes with Cole, Dorian, and Iron Bull. Not only did Cole comfort Bull about his guilt about losing a friend, but he also recounts clearly when Bull rescues Krem. The 3 seconds he imitates Bull was hysterical. I like Cole, but just for the exercise, let me try playing devil’s advocate. Cole does not comfort people out of the goodness of his heart. He’s feeding. And that has some subtle but really important differences vs. normal empathy. Cole feeds on the emotion of “relief”. In Asunder, he created that emotion by shanking people who were being mistreated. Now he’s less murder-y, but there’s a good reason for that. Murder didn’t work long-term. Sure, it gave his victims a feeling of relief, but it also caused a whole mess of panic in the White Spire every time someone died mysteriously. So the net result was... not in line with the emotion he feeds on. With Rhys’ help, he gets a little more clever. He goes after Lord Seeker Lambert. No relief for Lord Seeker Lambert, but possibly some relief for the mages the seeker menaced. Except... whoopsie daisy, still a problem, because he may have sparked off a teensy bit of a mage-templar war. So the net effect is more stress instead of less, again. But. Through all this, Cole gets stronger. Because the sustenance of a spirit or demon is to create that transition into a certain emotion. And you fundamentally can’t have relief without distress happening first. So while Cole has a drive to create more relief, and will try as hard as he can to increase the net relief in the world, he gets stronger when he fucks up. Every fuckup offers more broken people, more opportunities to grant relief. This isn’t coming out of evil intent on Cole’s part. It’s happening because spirits who don’t constantly mess up don’t have as many opportunities to create their emotion. They never grow powerful. They never leave the Fade. They might not even have the power to speak to adventurers. So all the spirits we actually meet are some flavor of cursed monkey paw, causing unintended havoc in their wake. This is the same reason why another compassion spirit is stoking the Warden’s ill-advised scheme to kill the old gods (likely causing all the darkspawn to rise to the surface in an endless Blight). If you cause the world to descend into unending Blight, you have all the more opportunities to remove fear of the Blight. If the Blight was actually fixed, the Nightmare would have no fears to remove — nothing to feed on. Think of Cole’s personal quest. His ultimate expression of his spirit side, of granting relief, is to make the templar forget. But that’s exactly the kind of thing that will give Cole more “business” in the future, because the templar has lost the guilt that might have kept him from participating in someone else’s suffering. While such a result might horrify Cole on a conscious level, on a subconscious level it’s giving him another opportunity to grant relief. To feed. And he’ll get stronger. Cole doesn’t want to fix things. He wants to help. And he will instinctively sabotage perfect outcomes, because they deny him opportunities to help later. [ br] Whoa that was well thought of (and dark) I would have just thought people found him creepy lol
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inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,241
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Jan 25, 2018 9:15:19 GMT
I spent the entire time in Hissing Wastes with Cole, Dorian, and Iron Bull. Not only did Cole comfort Bull about his guilt about losing a friend, but he also recounts clearly when Bull rescues Krem. The 3 seconds he imitates Bull was hysterical. I like Cole, but just for the exercise, let me try playing devil’s advocate. Cole does not comfort people out of the goodness of his heart. He’s feeding. And that has some subtle but really important differences vs. normal empathy. Cole feeds on the emotion of “relief”. In Asunder, he created that emotion by shanking people who were being mistreated. Now he’s less murder-y, but there’s a good reason for that. Murder didn’t work long-term. Sure, it gave his victims a feeling of relief, but it also caused a whole mess of panic in the White Spire every time someone died mysteriously. So the net result was... not in line with the emotion he feeds on. With Rhys’ help, he gets a little more clever. He goes after Lord Seeker Lambert. No relief for Lord Seeker Lambert, but possibly some relief for the mages the seeker menaced. Except... whoopsie daisy, still a problem, because he may have sparked off a teensy bit of a mage-templar war. So the net effect is more stress instead of less, again. But. Through all this, Cole gets stronger. Because the sustenance of a spirit or demon is to create that transition into a certain emotion. And you fundamentally can’t have relief without distress happening first. So while Cole has a drive to create more relief, and will try as hard as he can to increase the net relief in the world, he gets stronger when he fucks up. Every fuckup offers more broken people, more opportunities to grant relief. This isn’t coming out of evil intent on Cole’s part. It’s happening because spirits who don’t constantly mess up don’t have as many opportunities to create their emotion. They never grow powerful. They never leave the Fade. They might not even have the power to speak to adventurers. So all the spirits we actually meet are some flavor of cursed monkey paw, causing unintended havoc in their wake. This is the same reason why another compassion spirit is stoking the Warden’s ill-advised scheme to kill the old gods (likely causing all the darkspawn to rise to the surface in an endless Blight). If you cause the world to descend into unending Blight, you have all the more opportunities to remove fear of the Blight. If the Blight was actually fixed, the Nightmare would have no fears to remove — nothing to feed on. Think of Cole’s personal quest. His ultimate expression of his spirit side, of granting relief, is to make the templar forget. But that’s exactly the kind of thing that will give Cole more “business” in the future, because the templar has lost the guilt that might have kept him from participating in someone else’s suffering. While such a result might horrify Cole on a conscious level, on a subconscious level it’s giving him another opportunity to grant relief. To feed. And he’ll get stronger. Cole doesn’t want to fix things. He wants to help. And he will instinctively sabotage perfect outcomes, because they deny him opportunities to help later.He doesn't need to let people suffer more. Spirit of Compassion will find always enough suffer to legitimate his existence. This not how it working. He doesn't sabotage the outcomes, this is his solution. He's not human. Not mentioned: if he kills people, their problems "solved", they don't feed him anymore... but he killed/tried to kill people to eliminate suffering
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inherit
529
0
7,815
Nightscrawl
3,266
August 2016
nightscrawl
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jan 25, 2018 12:42:49 GMT
Without getting into the greater intricacies of Cole's function, as Arvaarad did, I can offer some insight.
While I don't like this language and think it's extreme, some feel that what Cole does, how he "reads" people, is basically a form of "mind rape." There are several instances in the banters of people asking him to stop doing it, with perhaps the most insistent and emotional reaction coming from Dorian during one exchange; he's so upset by the exchange he's near to breaking down. While Cole's method does have the potential to "help," it is also a violation of the innermost sanctum unique to every individual: the private sanctuary of one's mind.
People's thoughts are private. Through socialization, we learn to keep certain thoughts and feelings to ourselves, either due to politeness, kindness, self-protection, and any number of things that regulate behavior. We think innumerable things every day that we wouldn't want the world to see, whether that is fantasizing cursing out your boss, having a sexual encounter with someone you know, or other things. Generally, people know to filter these thoughts.
Cole breaks though those barriers. Even worse, he does so in public, sharing those thoughts with the entire party. There is one banter where he references the sexual nature of a player's romance with Iron Bull. That would NOT make me happy if I were that Inquisitor. My sex life is private; the whole world doesn't need to know about it.
My own Inquisitor can have a somewhat neutral perspective on Cole because Cole doen't do his thing with him very often and knows it's from good intention. (I don't agree with Arvaarad's views.) But I can definitely understand how that would make different people, characters and players, uncomfortable, or even hostile toward Cole.
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inherit
529
0
7,815
Nightscrawl
3,266
August 2016
nightscrawl
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jan 25, 2018 12:53:42 GMT
He doesn't need to let people suffer more. Spirit of Compassion will find always enough suffer to legitimate his existence. This not how it working. He doesn't sabotage the outcomes, this is his solution. He's not human. Not mentioned: if he kills people, their problems "solved", they don't feed him anymore... but he killed/tried to kill people to eliminate suffering Yes. there is one dialogue in DAI where he explains a bit of how he used to be, as he was in Asunder. He says that he didn't understand that you could help in other ways, but now he does. The Cole in DAI is almost completely different than he was is Asunder and that is because of the growth that takes place during Asunder, as well as what happens between Asunder and DAI.
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inherit
4964
0
Jun 17, 2017 17:29:55 GMT
3,700
arvaarad
1,465
Mar 18, 2017 16:32:40 GMT
March 2017
arvaarad
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Jade Empire
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Post by arvaarad on Jan 25, 2018 13:52:12 GMT
He doesn't need to let people suffer more. Spirit of Compassion will find always enough suffer to legitimate his existence. I agree. There’s lots of natural suffering for spirits to choose from. But there’s also a whoooooole lot of competition for it. There are so many wisps in the Fade that mages can casually summon whole packs of them from any location, not worrying that they won’t find any. Wisps cannot speak, they can’t cross over on their own, but they’re something that can eventually turn into a spirit if they gain enough power. The spirits who actually graduate past the wisp stage did so by out-competing the other wisps. It’s not enough to seek out their target emotion in the wild. All the other wisps can do that, and yet the Fade has many many more wisps than full spirits. To become a walking, talking, crossing-the-Veil spirit, they have to farm their emotion, not just forage for it. It’s why Justice’s actions tend to be disproportionately “big” — each overstep creates more wronged parties and more opportunities for righting the wrong. It’s why Faith encourages Wynne to downplay the abuses in the Circle. Without a dire situation, there’s no call for an emotion like faith. It’s why desire spirits always seek out people with unsolvable problems, or problems they can exacerbate. It’s why Cole wants Celene and Briala back together. It’s why he’s helping Solas. It’s why he relies so heavily on forgetting, which is likely to cause people to re-offend or re-experience new traumas. It’s why he becomes so powerful in the White Spire, because each murder generates more panic, more negative emotions to soothe. To be clear, these spirits aren’t necessarily being evil on purpose, in fact they’ll often change their behavior when called out. It’s just survivorship bias. The spirits who are “bad at their job” (i.e. they create lots of new problems every time they “solve” a problem) are actually good at their job, and the spirits who are “good at their job” (i.e. the ones that actually solve problems) never become more than wisps. A spirit’s goal is “generate as much of this emotion as possible”, and spirits are actually better at that when they suck at preventing side effects.
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inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,241
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Jan 25, 2018 13:55:24 GMT
He doesn't need to let people suffer more. Spirit of Compassion will find always enough suffer to legitimate his existence. I agree. There’s lots of natural suffering for spirits to choose from. But there’s also a whoooooole lot of competition for it. There are so many wisps in the Fade that mages can casually summon whole packs of them from any location, not worrying that they won’t find any. Wisps cannot speak, they can’t cross over on their own, but they’re something that can eventually turn into a spirit if they gain enough power. The spirits who actually graduate past the wisp stage did so by out-competing the other wisps. It’s not enough to seek out their target emotion in the wild. All the other wisps can do that, and yet the Fade has many many more wisps than full spirits. To become a walking, talking, crossing-the-Veil spirit, they have to farm their emotion, not just forage for it. It’s why Justice’s actions tend to be disproportionately “big” — each overstep creates more wronged parties and more opportunities for righting the wrong. It’s why Faith encourages Wynne to downplay the abuses in the Circle. Without a dire situation, there’s no call for an emotion like faith. It’s why desire spirits always seek out people with unsolvable problems, or problems they can exacerbate. It’s why Cole wants Celene and Briala back together. It’s why he’s helping Solas. It’s why he relies so heavily on forgetting, which is likely to cause people to re-offend or re-experience new traumas. It’s why he becomes so powerful in the White Spire, because each murder generates more panic, more negative emotions to soothe. To be clear, these spirits aren’t necessarily being evil on purpose, in fact they’ll often change their behavior when called out. It’s just survivorship bias. The spirits who are “bad at their job” (i.e. they create lots of new problems every time they “solve” a problem) are actually good at their job, and the spirits who are “good at their job” (i.e. the ones that actually solve problems) never become more than wisps. A spirit’s goal is “generate as much of this emotion as possible”, and spirits are actually better at that when they suck at preventing side effects. You speak about demons. Twisted spirits.
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inherit
4964
0
Jun 17, 2017 17:29:55 GMT
3,700
arvaarad
1,465
Mar 18, 2017 16:32:40 GMT
March 2017
arvaarad
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Jade Empire
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Post by arvaarad on Jan 25, 2018 14:21:01 GMT
I agree. There’s lots of natural suffering for spirits to choose from. But there’s also a whoooooole lot of competition for it. There are so many wisps in the Fade that mages can casually summon whole packs of them from any location, not worrying that they won’t find any. Wisps cannot speak, they can’t cross over on their own, but they’re something that can eventually turn into a spirit if they gain enough power. The spirits who actually graduate past the wisp stage did so by out-competing the other wisps. It’s not enough to seek out their target emotion in the wild. All the other wisps can do that, and yet the Fade has many many more wisps than full spirits. To become a walking, talking, crossing-the-Veil spirit, they have to farm their emotion, not just forage for it. It’s why Justice’s actions tend to be disproportionately “big” — each overstep creates more wronged parties and more opportunities for righting the wrong. It’s why Faith encourages Wynne to downplay the abuses in the Circle. Without a dire situation, there’s no call for an emotion like faith. It’s why desire spirits always seek out people with unsolvable problems, or problems they can exacerbate. It’s why Cole wants Celene and Briala back together. It’s why he’s helping Solas. It’s why he relies so heavily on forgetting, which is likely to cause people to re-offend or re-experience new traumas. It’s why he becomes so powerful in the White Spire, because each murder generates more panic, more negative emotions to soothe. To be clear, these spirits aren’t necessarily being evil on purpose, in fact they’ll often change their behavior when called out. It’s just survivorship bias. The spirits who are “bad at their job” (i.e. they create lots of new problems every time they “solve” a problem) are actually good at their job, and the spirits who are “good at their job” (i.e. the ones that actually solve problems) never become more than wisps. A spirit’s goal is “generate as much of this emotion as possible”, and spirits are actually better at that when they suck at preventing side effects. You speak about demons. Twisted spirits. Yes, I am. At the risk of sounding very... Vivienne... all the spirits we talk to, even the ones who represent positive emotions, have what mortals might view as demonic elements. Merrill says something similar too: all spirits are dangerous. The problem is, we’re interacting with a very specific subset of spirits. The spirits we talk to are some of the most powerful spirits in the Fade. If it weren’t for the Veil, we’d have more opportunities to meet weaker spirits, many of whom could be unambiguously good. But with the Veil up, it’s extremely difficult for spirits to be powerful enough to affect the waking world. Unless they’re exploiting cycles of emotion, the way Justice and Cole and Nightmare do. And those cycles usually turn out bad for the mortals they’re farming, so they get called demons.
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inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,241
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Jan 25, 2018 14:29:27 GMT
You speak about demons. Twisted spirits. Yes, I am. At the risk of sounding very... Vivienne... all the spirits we talk to, even the ones who represent positive emotions, have what mortals might view as demonic elements. Merrill says something similar too: all spirits are dangerous. The problem is, we’re interacting with a very specific subset of spirits. The spirits we talk to are some of the most powerful spirits in the Fade. If it weren’t for the Veil, we’d have more opportunities to meet weaker spirits, many of whom could be unambiguously good. But with the Veil up, it’s extremely difficult for spirits to be powerful enough to affect the waking world. Unless they’re exploiting cycles of emotion, the way Justice and Cole and Nightmare do. And those cycles usually turn out bad for the mortals they’re farming, so they get called demons. What Vivienne says, doesn't relevant, Vivienne just simple narrow-minded, damaged person. Merrill's right, they are dangerous. No one denied that. A twisted spirit has desire to be greater, more powerful, a spirit doesn't have such an ambition, only goal it have: to serve it's own purpose.
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inherit
4964
0
Jun 17, 2017 17:29:55 GMT
3,700
arvaarad
1,465
Mar 18, 2017 16:32:40 GMT
March 2017
arvaarad
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Jade Empire
|
Post by arvaarad on Jan 25, 2018 15:25:35 GMT
Yes, I am. At the risk of sounding very... Vivienne... all the spirits we talk to, even the ones who represent positive emotions, have what mortals might view as demonic elements. Merrill says something similar too: all spirits are dangerous. The problem is, we’re interacting with a very specific subset of spirits. The spirits we talk to are some of the most powerful spirits in the Fade. If it weren’t for the Veil, we’d have more opportunities to meet weaker spirits, many of whom could be unambiguously good. But with the Veil up, it’s extremely difficult for spirits to be powerful enough to affect the waking world. Unless they’re exploiting cycles of emotion, the way Justice and Cole and Nightmare do. And those cycles usually turn out bad for the mortals they’re farming, so they get called demons. What Vivienne says, doesn't relevant, Vivienne just simple narrow-minded, damaged person. Merrill's right, they are dangerous. No one denied that. A twisted spirit has desire to be greater, more powerful, a spirit doesn't have such an ambition, only goal it have: to serve it's own purpose. And in order to fulfill that goal, it needs power. Good spirits may not be ambitious on purpose, but successful good spirits gained power anyway. That’s why there’s two clear camps: 1. Evil-intentioned spirits, presented as demons, who have a nuanced understanding of mortal emotions and side effects. 2. Good-intentioned spirits, presented as spirits, who are fairly tone-deaf and confused about unintended side effects. Why are good-intentioned spirits so often portrayed as... kind of dim, compared to their more demon-y neighbors? Well, it’s because they aren’t power-hungry, but they needed to gain power anyway in order to be relevant to the protagonist (otherwise they’d just be a wisp). So they gain power by accidentally exploiting destructive cycles of emotion. They aren’t ambitious. They aren’t power-hungry. But from a mortal’s perspective, it hardly matters. The result is the same as if the spirit had evil intentions, it’s just that the good-intentioned spirit is ignorant of the harm they’re causing.
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inherit
1439
0
Mar 25, 2024 20:11:35 GMT
12,446
witchcocktor
4,031
Sept 6, 2016 10:00:37 GMT
September 2016
witchcocktor
Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by witchcocktor on Jan 25, 2018 16:49:04 GMT
Well I don't. His only purpose for me is to serve as a tool to gain disapproval with Solas.
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inherit
1587
0
Mar 27, 2024 19:41:04 GMT
1,671
Walter Black
1,253
Sept 15, 2016 15:02:16 GMT
September 2016
walterblack
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Post by Walter Black on Jan 25, 2018 21:53:34 GMT
Another thing about Spirit Cole's "help" is how by removing painful memories, he inadvertently robs the persons of the ability to learn and grow from those experiences. He initially sees happiness as static and unchanging, rather than the culmination of one's evolution. Not to mention how if you can't remember how someone might have used and abused you, they are now free to do it again . Plus, some of us dislike Patrick Weekes' handling of the character. You can argue how his version has changed from David Gaider's, but several times Weekes glosses over, ignores or outright retcons some of Cole's darker aspects. Even how he writes encounters comes off as emotionally manipulative; "If only they would let me fix them, they would be so much better!" Unfortunately, Weekes has a bad habit of whitewashing a lot of his characters (Iron Bull, Solas, Celine and Briala ...) or punishing players that don't agree with his conclusions.
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inherit
2703
0
2,011
Lazarillo
1,025
January 2017
lazarillo
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, SWTOR
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Post by Lazarillo on Jan 25, 2018 22:18:13 GMT
As someone who didn't and never will read Asunder, but who enjoys Cole's character in Inquisition, and still does, this thread is nonetheless pretty fascinating and enlightening. Keep it coming! People's thoughts are private. Through socialization, we learn to keep certain thoughts and feelings to ourselves, either due to politeness, kindness, self-protection, and any number of things that regulate behavior. We think innumerable things every day that we wouldn't want the world to see, whether that is fantasizing cursing out your boss, having a sexual encounter with someone you know, or other things. Generally, people know to filter these thoughts. This made me think of something somewhat unrelated that I just can't resist noting, though. Solas: You spied upon your own people. Iron Bull: Is that so different from Orlais or Ferelden? They have all kinds of people policing them. Solas: What they say and do, yes. Not what they think. Iron Bull: What you think is what you say and do. Solas: No. Even the lowliest peasant may find freedom in the safety of her thoughts. You take even that. I'm having a fun time trying to reconcile someone who says that with someone who thinks Cole should keep doing what Cole do. I mean, the simplest way is "Solas is a racist hypocrite", but it's still always fun to note ways that it could be rubbed in his face.
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inherit
529
0
7,815
Nightscrawl
3,266
August 2016
nightscrawl
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jan 25, 2018 22:29:58 GMT
I'm having a fun time trying to reconcile someone who says that with someone who thinks Cole should keep doing what Cole do. I mean, the simplest way is "Solas is a racist hypocrite", but it's still always fun to note ways that it could be rubbed in his face. I don't pretend to understand Solas, but it could just be that he looks at Cole's abilities in a different way because he's a spirit. As upset as Dorian gets during that one banter, I actually do think it's helpful for him to be able to talk through his feelings in that way. Cole moves a bit faster than Dorian is ready to handle, but overall I think it was helpful. Even Dorian himself is able to better articulate in a later banter after he's had time to marinate on his own thoughts and feelings. I don't think what Cole does is similar to Qunari brainwashing. Cole reveals inner thoughts and feelings and helps people to deal with them by saying what he thinks they need to hear, then he usually makes them forget his existence so they feel like they came into that understanding on their own, so it sticks and actually works for them. The Qunari have a rigid societal structure that they adhere to with a religious fervor; if you don't fall in line with this, you get forcibly corrected if that's a viable option for the individual. I doubt Solas thinks they are in any way related.
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inherit
2703
0
2,011
Lazarillo
1,025
January 2017
lazarillo
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, SWTOR
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Post by Lazarillo on Jan 25, 2018 22:57:40 GMT
I don't pretend to understand Solas, but it could just be that he looks at Cole's abilities in a different way because he's a spirit. Well, that's kind of what I mean. "It's okay when spirits mess with your mind, because that's their nature. But mortals are crap, so they don't have the right to do it, and the fact that they try is why mortals are crap." The sort of twists that he presents in order to rationalize himself are part of why I love him (or, love to hate him, I guess).
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xerrai
N3
Posts: 839 Likes: 1,155
inherit
1451
0
1,155
xerrai
839
September 2016
xerrai
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Post by xerrai on Jan 29, 2018 1:49:12 GMT
Personally I always thought Cole's mind reading was not really mind reading--or at least not in the way most people understand it. As a denizen of the fade, emotion and though are just as fluid and present in the world like water and soil. It's just around, and not particularly all in one place even though it could all originate from source (i.e mortal minds) and Cole perceives it as such.
And even though the real world goes by drastically different rules, its possible that Cole is still either tapping into the fade on some level (as many magic inclined creatures tend to do) or that he is still trying to see the world through that 'spirit sense' he always used in the fade. It's like an extra sense to him. It could be that the "stuff inside our head" isn't really as 'inside' as we perceive it to be. Even though it is.
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2432
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403
jnericsonx
315
December 2016
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Post by jnericsonx on Jan 30, 2018 1:38:03 GMT
Ok, after getting this banter, which I LOVED, cause if I read it right, no way in HELL will I ever make Bull follow the Qun: Please note this is someone else's post too:
Cole: "Tama, how will I follow the Qun?" Her hands, strong but gentle, rubs the stubs where the horns will be.
Cole: "You are strong, and your mind is sharp. You will solve problems others cannot." She smiles, but sadly.
Iron Bull: Looks like my old Tamassran was wrong. Bet she's pissed one of her kids went Tal-Vashoth.
Cole: Agents with hushed tones. Eyes stinging. Forms to fill out, course corrections. Reduce risk of similar losses.
Cole: I remember the little boy, too wise, eager to help. Words break in small, secret spaces. He got away. He got away.
Iron Bull: How could you know that? You've never even met her.
Cole: Your hurt touches hers.
Iron Bull: Well, that's, uh, creepy, but... Thanks.
I've been thinking, did she actually want Bull to leave the Qun? What confuses me is the "sadly" and the whole "words break in small, secret spaces. He got away." Whose words? Hers? The Inquisitor's? Is he getting away akin to escaping or getting lost?
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8759
0
Mar 27, 2024 22:41:51 GMT
8,699
Curious Crow
Tripping through time
1,742
Jun 17, 2017 14:20:42 GMT
June 2017
kipper
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Post by Curious Crow on Jan 30, 2018 14:42:30 GMT
I've been thinking, did she actually want Bull to leave the Qun? What confuses me is the "sadly" and the whole "words break in small, secret spaces. He got away." Whose words? Hers? The Inquisitor's? Is he getting away akin to escaping or getting lost? Could be that she's already pegged him into a job like patroling the streets of Seheron or something else with quick burnouts. So there you got a cute baby boy, trying to make it sound appealing that his future in life is to risk his mind and body until either breaks and he'll be put down or dies. Then the secret words are relief that he got away, but on the outside is dealing with that somebody broke the Qun and preventive measures have to be taken for similar minds.
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2432
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403
jnericsonx
315
December 2016
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Post by jnericsonx on Jan 30, 2018 22:50:03 GMT
Yeah. Still, I loved that moment. And by that point in the banter, Bull has pretty much accepted Cole.
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2701
0
Feb 15, 2023 19:19:48 GMT
5,874
sgtreed24
1,947
January 2017
sgtreed24
Bottom
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
SgtReed24
STB Sgt Reed
Over 9000
um, 17?
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Post by sgtreed24 on Mar 7, 2018 15:53:41 GMT
It's the hat. That's why.
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749
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Mar 10, 2024 18:44:44 GMT
3,652
Iddy
3,727
August 2016
iddy
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Post by Iddy on Mar 19, 2018 12:56:40 GMT
Because he is a one trick pony. He feels more like a plot device to reveal things about others than a legitimate character on his own.
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749
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Mar 10, 2024 18:44:44 GMT
3,652
Iddy
3,727
August 2016
iddy
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Post by Iddy on Mar 19, 2018 12:58:48 GMT
Personally I always thought Cole's mind reading was not really mind reading--or at least not in the way most people understand it. As a denizen of the fade, emotion and though are just as fluid and present in the world like water and soil. It's just around, and not particularly all in one place even though it could all originate from source (i.e mortal minds) and Cole perceives it as such. And even though the real world goes by drastically different rules, its possible that Cole is still either tapping into the fade on some level (as many magic inclined creatures tend to do) or that he is still trying to see the world through that 'spirit sense' he always used in the fade. It's like an extra sense to him. It could be that the "stuff inside our head" isn't really as 'inside' as we perceive it to be. Even though it is. Yep, I'm pretty sure every spirit can do that. Imshael did it to Michel too.
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ღ I am a golem. Obviously.
440
0
24,181
phoray
Dreadnaw Rising
12,570
August 2016
phoray
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
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Post by phoray on Mar 19, 2018 14:05:15 GMT
Because he is a one trick pony. He feels more like a plot device to reveal things about others than a legitimate character on his own. Well, he's a reactionary spirit first and foremost, who has only been in the real world the equivalent of like...5 years? and most of that 5 years, he was completely alone in the dark spying on people but not understanding and occasionally murdering some mages? If a 1 year old tagged along on our quest and knew only how to do two things, would you really be surprised?
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