CosmicGnosis
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Post by CosmicGnosis on Jan 28, 2018 6:01:50 GMT
It's kind of strange that Leliana doesn't get any points from Celene and Briala's reconciliation.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 28, 2018 11:09:53 GMT
Vivienne the worst, in every viewpoint. Leliana's not a flower child: She knows the Game, but not in love with the Game. Vivienne more bloodthirsty than steeled Leliana. And Leliana and Cassandra help each other. Leliana's not crazy, but Vivienne's very dangerous. I would never give power such a person. Cassandra at least not corrupt. Vivienne very conservative, she doesn't want any change, except that she, a mage will be Divine. But she wants everything back just as before was: prison-Circles, Templars in lyrium lash, as puppets. And she's the worst propaganda against the mages: a mage, who imprisoned her fellows, because doesn't believe, they can live freely. And Cassandra cares about people, just as Leliana, Vivienne cares about herself. The Chantry doesn't need such a person. Meh, Vivienne adds excitement and the mages that side with her end up more powerful as a result, something they need more than anything cause power ensures long-term freedom. I also think you take everything Vivienne says at face value. She's no monster, she does care about the mages but chooses not to wear rose-colored glasses about them. I think her approach is more pragmatic. Leliana is a bit too chaotic and only works cause the writers says it does. But to each his own. IMO, I wouldn't want mages anywhere near a giant magic hole in the sky that summons demons. Templars dispel magic, kills demons, crazed mages, and actually know how to form an army and fight if need be. Mages fling more magic at magical problems, summons demons, likely to go crazy, and hide when the poop hits the fan. Probably Vivienne gives more freedom (more freedom is not freedom), the mages, who loyal to her. And as I said: Vivienne's the worst in many viewpoints: if she cares anyone, then this is only her loyal mages. She just a bloodthirsty magister-Divine. She doesn't care the Chantry, the people, only herself and some loyal mages. Nothing about the people. Cassandra's Justinia's follower, a progressive-conservative Divine, she cares about the people (true, less cares about the mages), wants to continue her reforms, but this isn't enough. The best time for radical reforms is after a world-chaos. If anyone wants true reforms, the Leliana is the solution. Cassandra's a wasted opportunity to an Inquisitor, who wants reforms, Vivienne's unbelievable: how she got an election? She has nothing to do with the Chantry. She just an Orlesian court jester. The question: who needs such an Orlesian mage, without any knowledge of the Chantry or Andraste, in the Chantry?
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davesin
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Post by davesin on Jan 28, 2018 11:47:50 GMT
Probably Vivienne gives more freedom (more freedom is not freedom), the mages, who loyal to her. And as I said: Vivienne's the worst in many viewpoints: if she cares anyone, then this is only her loyal mages. She just a bloodthirsty magister-Divine. She doesn't care the Chantry, the people, only herself and some loyal mages. Nothing about the people. Cassandra's Justinia's follower, a progressive-conservative Divine, she cares about the people (true, less cares about the mages), wants to continue her reforms, but this isn't enough. The best time for radical reforms is after a world-chaos. If anyone wants true reforms, the Leliana is the solution. Cassandra's a wasted opportunity to an Inquisitor, who wants reforms, Vivienne's unbelievable: how she got an election? She has nothing to do with the Chantry. She just an Orlesian court jester. The question: who needs such an Orlesian mage, without any knowledge of the Chantry or Andraste, in the Chantry? How is she more bloodthirsty than hardened Leliana? A woman who needs therapy every other game, by the way. Let's hope nothing bad happens to someone she likes or love. Again. Vivienne at least keeps her head cool and clear and tries to get results done by diplomacy first (as she allows College of Entchanters to even exist instead of going into war with them), then by using force (it's stated in Inquisiton's epilogue that she defends herself. She doesn't actively hunt down opposition, unlike certain redhead ex-bard). And she doesn't need any Warden or Inquisitor to be her moral guide. I agree with Vivienne being Divine not making much sense, though. One wonder how did they reach that point.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 28, 2018 12:02:03 GMT
Probably Vivienne gives more freedom (more freedom is not freedom), the mages, who loyal to her. And as I said: Vivienne's the worst in many viewpoints: if she cares anyone, then this is only her loyal mages. She just a bloodthirsty magister-Divine. She doesn't care the Chantry, the people, only herself and some loyal mages. Nothing about the people.
Cassandra's Justinia's follower, a progressive-conservative Divine, she cares about the people (true, less cares about the mages), wants to continue her reforms, but this isn't enough. The best time for radical reforms is after a world-chaos. If anyone wants true reforms, the Leliana is the solution. Cassandra's a wasted opportunity to an Inquisitor, who wants reforms, Vivienne's unbelievable: how she got an election? She has nothing to do with the Chantry. She just an Orlesian court jester. The question: who needs such an Orlesian mage, without any knowledge of the Chantry or Andraste, in the Chantry? How is she more bloodthirsty than hardened Leliana? A woman who needs therapy every other game, by the way. Let's hope nothing bad happens to someone she likes or love. Again. Vivienne at least keeps her head cool and clear and tries to get results done by diplomacy first (as she allows College of Entchanters to even exist instead of going into war with them), then by using force (it's stated in Inquisiton's epilogue that she defends herself. She doesn't actively hunt down opposition, unlike certain redhead ex-bard). And she doesn't need any Warden or Inquisitor to be her moral guide. I agree with Vivienne being Divine not making much sense, though. One wonder how did they reach that point. "In the end, they refuse Vivienne's invitation to rejoin the Circle of Magi and instead reform the College of Enchanters as a new order. The reaction from the new Divine is instantaneous: a war to dissolve the College before it begins. Some mages surrender; others return to the Inquisition. Either way, the new Circle of Magi stands triumphant."
Hardened Leliana only kills zealots (who against the reforms: so doesn't want elves in the chantry, for example), Vivienne wants to kill everyone who wants to be free. And a narrow-minded, damaged person, who filled many fears, is dangerous in high political position. Vivienne proved these traits not once. She just seems calm and "wise", her "wisdom only based on her fears. She's incredibly restrained but deeply damaged in the Circle. Anyone who said, that's a positive thing, that the mages were "fashion accessories", and loyal to her prison guards, isn't intact. Like a slave, who wants to keep the slavery.
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Post by davesin on Jan 28, 2018 12:13:15 GMT
"In the end, they refuse Vivienne's invitation to rejoin the Circle of Magi and instead reform the College of Enchanters as a new order. The reaction from the new Divine is instantaneous: a war to dissolve the College before it begins. Some mages surrender; others return to the Inquisition. Either way, the new Circle of Magi stands triumphant."
Hardened Leliana only kills zealots (who against the reforms: so doesn't want elves in the chantry, for example), Vivienne wants to kill everyone who wants to be free. And a narrow-minded, damaged person, who filled many fears, is dangerous in high political position. Vivienne proved these traits not once. She just seems calm and "wise", her "wisdom only based on her fears. She's incredibly restrained but deeply damaged in the Circle. Anyone who said, that's a positive thing, that the mages was "fashion accessories", and loyal to her prison guards, isn't intact. Fair enough. Forgot about this line from the original eopilogue that comes out when you choose mages. I remember only Trespasser epilogue on this, which states she chooses peaceful solution.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 28, 2018 12:23:51 GMT
"In the end, they refuse Vivienne's invitation to rejoin the Circle of Magi and instead reform the College of Enchanters as a new order. The reaction from the new Divine is instantaneous: a war to dissolve the College before it begins. Some mages surrender; others return to the Inquisition. Either way, the new Circle of Magi stands triumphant."
Hardened Leliana only kills zealots (who against the reforms: so doesn't want elves in the chantry, for example), Vivienne wants to kill everyone who wants to be free. And a narrow-minded, damaged person, who filled many fears, is dangerous in high political position. Vivienne proved these traits not once. She just seems calm and "wise", her "wisdom only based on her fears. She's incredibly restrained but deeply damaged in the Circle. Anyone who said, that's a positive thing, that the mages was "fashion accessories", and loyal to her prison guards, isn't intact. Fair enough. Forgot about this line from the original eopilogue that comes out when you choose mages. I remember only Trespasser epilogue on this, which states she chooses peaceful solution. Yes, I know, in the Trespasser she more diplomatic already, I suppose because the mages didn't give up, she forced to be indulgent. And she was able to show, what generous is she. Of course, perhaps it's just me, but I never heard anything about Vivienne's divinity, what she do with the other, non-mage people. Seems she only working for her pride. Leliana works for the equal chances, Cassandra works for the people, but everything that we know about Vivienne: she cares only about her loyal mages, and keeps the Templars on short, tight leash... – the latter tells quite a lot about her.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 28, 2018 13:28:33 GMT
I argue about the Divine issues with passion, but I think our big choices will not matter in the DA4 story.
As I imagine, the Divine will be a side-note, because in every world states the Circle exists, the Templar Order exists, the College of Enchanters exists, and free mages as well. Neither Cassandra nor Vivienne succeeds to shepherd back every mage into the Circle, and Vivienne created her own Circle in Leliana's world. The Chance of a war or a Chantry schism exists in both world, just as the chance of the peace.
I don't think we will get three significantly different world states, the differences will manifest only in little things.
The cake is a lie.
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Rochrok
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Post by Rochrok on Jan 28, 2018 13:53:28 GMT
How is she more bloodthirsty than hardened Leliana? A woman who needs therapy every other game, by the way. Let's hope nothing bad happens to someone she likes or love. Again. Vivienne at least keeps her head cool and clear and tries to get results done by diplomacy first (as she allows College of Entchanters to even exist instead of going into war with them), then by using force (it's stated in Inquisiton's epilogue that she defends herself. She doesn't actively hunt down opposition, unlike certain redhead ex-bard). And she doesn't need any Warden or Inquisitor to be her moral guide. I agree with Vivienne being Divine not making much sense, though. One wonder how did they reach that point. "In the end, they refuse Vivienne's invitation to rejoin the Circle of Magi and instead reform the College of Enchanters as a new order. The reaction from the new Divine is instantaneous: a war to dissolve the College before it begins. Some mages surrender; others return to the Inquisition. Either way, the new Circle of Magi stands triumphant."
Hardened Leliana only kills zealots (who against the reforms: so doesn't want elves in the chantry, for example), Vivienne wants to kill everyone who wants to be free. And a narrow-minded, damaged person, who filled many fears, is dangerous in high political position. Vivienne proved these traits not once. She just seems calm and "wise", her "wisdom only based on her fears. She's incredibly restrained but deeply damaged in the Circle. Anyone who said, that's a positive thing, that the mages were "fashion accessories", and loyal to her prison guards, isn't intact. Like a slave, who wants to keep the slavery. Sounds like they both have no issue with killing the opposition. You just agree with Leliana's reasons for murdering others. Not seeing how that makes Leliana a better person or Divine. Who decides who's a zealot or not? Leliana, who needs to justify her actions. And it would be unwise for Vivienne to reward those who despise her and want her gone and considering how mages acquire wealth in Thedas, she would be a fool to allow a new competitor to rise up unopposed. The more wealth and power the mages gain the more their freedom is secured and they go on unchallenged for as long as they want. When Vivienne dies, the mages under her will have the power to appoint another Mage Divine, and have the money to buy the army needed to protect themselves should the common people have a problem with it. I think this could be Vivienne's true goal for mages (to become as powerful as possible). If you overhear some people gossiping not too long after recruiting Vivienne, they mention that all the stuff Vivienne is saying about mages and the chantry isn't really the truth. She speaks the words but that's all. Vivienne has been playing the game for a very long time. When Leliana dies, the next Divine could just lock up the Mages again and they would be powerless to stop it. To me, Leliana is more damaged as she has no mind of her own and can be easily lead around by whoever is in charge of her at the moment. Right now it's the Inq, next it could be someone else. A person like that shouldn't be making important decisions, she's a puppet and nothing more.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 28, 2018 14:08:20 GMT
"In the end, they refuse Vivienne's invitation to rejoin the Circle of Magi and instead reform the College of Enchanters as a new order. The reaction from the new Divine is instantaneous: a war to dissolve the College before it begins. Some mages surrender; others return to the Inquisition. Either way, the new Circle of Magi stands triumphant."
Hardened Leliana only kills zealots (who against the reforms: so doesn't want elves in the chantry, for example), Vivienne wants to kill everyone who wants to be free.
And a narrow-minded, damaged person, who filled many fears, is dangerous in high political position. Vivienne proved these traits not once. She just seems calm and "wise", her "wisdom only based on her fears. She's incredibly restrained but deeply damaged in the Circle. Anyone who said, that's a positive thing, that the mages were "fashion accessories", and loyal to her prison guards, isn't intact. Like a slave, who wants to keep the slavery. Sounds like they both have no issue with killing the opposition. You just agree with Leliana's reasons for murdering others. Not seeing how that makes Leliana a better person or Divine. Who decides who's a zealot or not? Leliana, who needs to justify her actions. And it would be unwise for Vivienne to reward those who despise her and want her gone and considering how mages acquire wealth in Thedas, she would be a fool to allow a new competitor to rise up unopposed. The more wealth and power the mages gain the more their freedom is secured and they go on unchallenged for as long as they want. When Vivienne dies, the mages under her will have the power to appoint another Mage Divine, and have the money to buy the army needed to protect themselves should the common people have a problem with it. I think this could be Vivienne's true goal for mages (to become as powerful as possible). If you overhear some people gossiping not too long after recruiting Vivienne, they mention that all the stuff Vivienne is saying about mages and the chantry isn't really the truth. She speaks the words but that's all. Vivienne has been playing the game for a very long time. When Leliana dies, the next Divine could just lock up the Mages again and they would be powerless to stop it.
To me, Leliana is more damaged as she has no mind of her own and can be easily lead around by whoever is in charge of her at the moment. Right now it's the Inq, next it could be someone else. A person like that shouldn't be making important decisions, she's a puppet and nothing more. Leliana kills, who attack her and her reforms actively, Vivienne kills who wants to escape from her, this not a little difference. Leliana for the freedom, Vivienne for the power. So: you also think, Vivienne cares ONLY about the loyal mages? But the Divine for EVERYONE, not only for her kind. Vivienne is the worst, a mistake. Leliana has many doubts, but even has his own strong conviction and these are good traits. Vivienne has no doubts, only fears. Leliana gives a chance to everyone, Vivienne gives a chance ONLY the loyal mages. Leliana and Cassandra use the power for everyone, Vivienne uses the power for her whim. There's nothing about what would happen if they would die, but Leliana and Cassandra has each other, Vivienne has nothing. And about the mages: If Vivienne dies, and the mages inside the Circle, closed, the new Divine shouldn't care: they're closed. But if Leliana dies, the mages can fight for their freedom with more chance.
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Rochrok
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Post by Rochrok on Jan 28, 2018 14:16:57 GMT
Probably Vivienne gives more freedom (more freedom is not freedom), the mages, who loyal to her. And as I said: Vivienne's the worst in many viewpoints: if she cares anyone, then this is only her loyal mages. She just a bloodthirsty magister-Divine. She doesn't care the Chantry, the people, only herself and some loyal mages. Nothing about the people. Cassandra's Justinia's follower, a progressive-conservative Divine, she cares about the people (true, less cares about the mages), wants to continue her reforms, but this isn't enough. The best time for radical reforms is after a world-chaos. If anyone wants true reforms, the Leliana is the solution. Cassandra's a wasted opportunity to an Inquisitor, who wants reforms, Vivienne's unbelievable: how she got an election? She has nothing to do with the Chantry. She just an Orlesian court jester. The question: who needs such an Orlesian mage, without any knowledge of the Chantry or Andraste, in the Chantry? I agree with Vivienne being Divine not making much sense, though. One wonder how did they reach that point. I agree, I made Cass Divine on my non-mage because I can't believe anyone would accept Vivienne. On my Mage, I made Vivienne because if the people are crazy enough to follow a mage and call them the Herald then why not believe a mage can be Divine?
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Post by Catilina on Jan 28, 2018 14:37:26 GMT
I agree with Vivienne being Divine not making much sense, though. One wonder how did they reach that point. I agree, I made Cass Divine on my non-mage because I can't believe anyone would accept Vivienne. On my Mage, I made Vivienne because if the people are crazy enough to follow a mage and call them the Herald then why not believe a mage can be Divine? I don't have "loyalist" mage. My mages more or less healthy (as possible in the Circle), so they haven't any reason to listen to her or makes her in responsible position.
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Post by Rochrok on Jan 28, 2018 14:38:34 GMT
Sounds like they both have no issue with killing the opposition. Leliana kills, who attack her and her reforms actively, Vivienne kills who wants to escape from her, this not a little difference. So: you also think, Vivienne cares ONLY about the loyal mages? But the Divine for EVERYONE, not only for her kind. Vivienne is the worst, a mistake. Leliana has many doubts, and this is a good trait. Vivienne has no doubts, only fears. There's nothing about what would happen, if they would die, but Leliana has Cassandra, Vivienne has nothing. And about the mages: If Vivienne dies, and the mages inside the Circle, closed, the new Divine shouldn't care: they're closed. But if Leliana dies, the mages can fight for their freedom with more chance. Leliana is killing her opposition, the same as Vivienne. The College of Enchanters is a direct competitor to the Circle. Why should Vivienne care about everyone? The common people are the same people who never lifted a finger to help her and was happy to have her locked away in the circle. I'm all for Vivienne taking advantage of the new situation to strengthen herself with money and power, and if the other mages are smart they would follow her lead and do the same, but most of them aren't smart, which is why they started a war they couldn't win. Leliana has more than doubts, she has no mind of her own. Vivienne fears demons, something everyone in Thedas fears. Vivienne has my mage Inquisitor and his armies, spies, and connections. Much better than a Seeker. You're talking about the same mages who started a war with no allies, no money, no supplies, and no army. They'll be locked right back up in the Circles with no power in no time unless they run to Tevinter and end up some crazed mage's sacrifice or slave. Meanwhile, with Vivienne, the Circles will still exist but more as a formality than a prison. The mages will have so much power and be deeply rooted in the political climate of Thedas that they would be nearly untouchable. I doubt they would make a non-mage Divine again and if they did it would be them who pull the strings and if anyone has a problem with it, the mages would have money to buy an army, supplies, powerful allies, spies, and everything they need to win. Things could never go back to being the same. I don't either. My Mage wants power and is willing to use these overly religious gullible fools to get it, the same as Vivienne.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 28, 2018 14:52:12 GMT
Leliana kills, who attack her and her reforms actively, Vivienne kills who wants to escape from her, this not a little difference.
So: you also think, Vivienne cares ONLY about the loyal mages? But the Divine for EVERYONE, not only for her kind. Vivienne is the worst, a mistake.
Leliana has many doubts, and this is a good trait. Vivienne has no doubts, only fears.
There's nothing about what would happen, if they would die, but Leliana has Cassandra, Vivienne has nothing.
And about the mages: If Vivienne dies, and the mages inside the Circle, closed, the new Divine shouldn't care: they're closed. But if Leliana dies, the mages can fight for their freedom with more chance. Leliana is killing her opposition, the same as Vivienne. The College of Enchanters is a direct competitor to the Circle. Why should Vivienne care about everyone? The common people are the same people who never lifted a finger to help her and was happy to have her locked away in the circle. I'm all for Vivienne taking advantage of the new situation to strengthen herself with money and power, and if the other mages are smart they would follow her lead and do the same, but most of them aren't smart, which is why they started a war they couldn't win. Leliana has more than doubts, she has no mind of her own. Vivienne fears demons, something everyone in Thedas fears.
Vivienne has my mage Inquisitor and his armies, spies, and connections. Much better than a Seeker.
You're talking about the same mages who started a war with no allies, no money, no supplies, and no army. They'll be locked right back up in the Circles with no power in no time unless they run to Tevinter and end up some crazed mage's sacrifice or slave. Meanwhile, with Vivienne, the Circles will still exist but more as a formality than a prison. The mages will have so much power and be deeply rooted in the political climate of Thedas that they would be nearly untouchable. I doubt they would make a non-mage Divine again and if they did it would be them who pull the strings and if anyone has a problem with it, the mages would have money to buy an army, supplies, powerful allies, spies, and everything they need to win. Things could never go back to being the same. Nothing same. Freedom and equal chance are righteous causes, Leliana will fight against the people who opposite the freedom and equal chances. Vivienne wants to prevent to have competitors because she doesn't want opposites. Why should a Divine care about everyone? Because of the Chantry should serve EVERYONE, not only some loyal mages.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 28, 2018 14:55:59 GMT
Leliana kills, who attack her and her reforms actively, Vivienne kills who wants to escape from her, this not a little difference. So: you also think, Vivienne cares ONLY about the loyal mages? But the Divine for EVERYONE, not only for her kind. Vivienne is the worst, a mistake. Leliana has many doubts, and this is a good trait. Vivienne has no doubts, only fears. There's nothing about what would happen, if they would die, but Leliana has Cassandra, Vivienne has nothing. And about the mages: If Vivienne dies, and the mages inside the Circle, closed, the new Divine shouldn't care: they're closed. But if Leliana dies, the mages can fight for their freedom with more chance. Leliana is killing her opposition, the same as Vivienne. The College of Enchanters is a direct competitor to the Circle. Why should Vivienne care about everyone? The common people are the same people who never lifted a finger to help her and was happy to have her locked away in the circle. I'm all for Vivienne taking advantage of the new situation to strengthen herself with money and power, and if the other mages are smart they would follow her lead and do the same, but most of them aren't smart, which is why they started a war they couldn't win. Leliana has more than doubts, she has no mind of her own. Vivienne fears demons, something everyone in Thedas fears. Vivienne has my mage Inquisitor and his armies, spies, and connections. Much better than a Seeker. You're talking about the same mages who started a war with no allies, no money, no supplies, and no army. They'll be locked right back up in the Circles with no power in no time unless they run to Tevinter and end up some crazed mage's sacrifice or slave. Meanwhile, with Vivienne, the Circles will still exist but more as a formality than a prison. The mages will have so much power and be deeply rooted in the political climate of Thedas that they would be nearly untouchable. I doubt they would make a non-mage Divine again and if they did it would be them who pull the strings and if anyone has a problem with it, the mages would have money to buy an army, supplies, powerful allies, spies, and everything they need to win. Things could never go back to being the same. I don't either. My Mage wants power and is willing to use these overly religious gullible fools to get it, the same as Vivienne. Oh, a Magister-kind mage. Okay, then Vivienne's not a bad choice. Nothing problem with magocracy.
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Post by Jarovbees on Jan 28, 2018 16:08:23 GMT
I know how you feel about WEWH. I reunited Celene and Briala every time, until I read The Masked Empire and realized how fucked up their relationship was and would always be. So, now I either kill off Celene and leave Briala in charge, or let Celene live and have Briala pardoned/exiled.
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 28, 2018 16:10:21 GMT
It's kind of strange that Leliana doesn't get any points from Celene and Briala's reconciliation. She's a spy, she probably knows how fucked up their relationship is and that's why she's pro-Briala but not Celene.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2018 16:41:48 GMT
Would you say that the truce, which requires you to reveal everything you know to Celene, Gaspard, and Briala, is a less thoughtful way to play the Game than some of the other choices? I wonder about this because of the way BioWare designed the consequences: 1. You don't receive a War Table mission from any of the leaders if you force the truce. In all other cases, the leader gives you a War Table mission that provides a reward. But in the case of the truce, it seems that they all resent you. The epilogue also says that the war basically resumes later. 2. Amulets of Power are rare, especially after a patch that removed most of them for some reason. Notably, reconciling Celene and Briala leads to a War Table mission that gives you an Amulet of Power. This is the best reward that you can get from any of the leaders, which suggests that reconciliation is the optimal choice. I would say it's the least interesting decision to make with very little pay off. They won't stay in a truce for long and you're not changing anything. Personally, I think it's more fun to pick a side. When I'm feeling diplomatic I choose Briala and Celene, when I feel rebellious and blood thirsty I pick Briala. I never pick Gaspard...fuck that guy.
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Post by yeah rip on Jan 28, 2018 20:53:11 GMT
From what I've heard about the books, Celene and Briala's relationship is all sorts of screwed up. Celene kills her parents, purges her alianage, imprisons her but reassures her that she will make visits when she's horny (if anyone actually read the books, feel free to correct me) - I have no idea why people find them so romantic. Canonically, reconciling them might be presented as the better option for the elves (don't remember), but I don't know how well-received their reforms could actually be. And there's no telling when would be the next time Celene sacrificed elves to save her reputation. Personally, I put Gaspard on the throne, without Briala, because he seemed like a more reliable ally in the war against Corypheus. And he earned bonus points with me for hating the Game. Celene represented everything that's wrong with Orlais, imo, and we don't need her "diplomacy" against Corypheus. Briala wanted to make things better for the elves, but she had no idea how to do it properly. She wanted to force the change and didn't realize that she could do more harm than good. An alliance with all 3 of them seems like a good idea on the surface, but they all end up resenting you and things go south for Orlais again. I don't see elves really benefiting from any of these outcomes - maybe Celene and Briala, at first, but Celene ordered a mass murder of elves to save her face once before, what would stop her from doing it again?
Someone here said that Corypheus was the Warden's mistake rather than Hawke's, but we don't know the actual circumstances of how he was imprisoned, it could have been the best possible way to neutralize him at the time. Hawke was the one who came poking around where they shouldn't. Back to The Abyss - it's probably not a good idea to leave the wardens leaderless, even if it's a de facto leader. Honestly though, the writing for this part is just terrible. It really shouldn't matter too much if the Orlesian Wardens were left without a senior - there ought to be someone among the survivors who could be competent enough to assume the position until they rebuilt. Even if they were utterly screwed it shouldn't matter all that much, but the game seems to think that there are absolutely NO other wardens outside of Orlais, and if they fall, it's the end of the entire Order. Regardless, there's really nothing for Hawke to do in Weisshaupt, not sure why they had to go there in the first place. To me it just makes more sense to leave Hawke in the Fade, at least as much sense as can be made with this quest.
I gave up on the mages. They made their bed, I let them sleep in it, and I didn't feel like babysitting the "delicate mage flowers" for the third game in a row. The Breach is magic, why not use the soldiers whose entire purpose to neutralize magic? And "dumping more magic" into the Anchor didn't feel like a wise thing to do since no-one even understood what the hell it was, aside from the fact that it could manipulate the veil to some extent. As for Calpernia - her backstory is... interesting, I guess? I personally didn't care for it, but she at least had the redeeming quality of freeing the slaves... while wanting to bring the old Tevinter back... that had slavery... while ignoring the slaves used by Venatori... and the Red Templars enslaving people to grow red lyrium... argh, I give up, she's terrible and I kill her every time. Can't really tell if her storyline is more interesting than Samson's, never played his side.
Vivienne described Leliana as a "well-meaning fool" and I agree 100%. She has the same problem as Briala - she wants to force the change and doesn't realize that it could actually harm the people she wants to help. And no matter what the game says, I don't see Thedas being okay with the mages roaming free so soon after the war.
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 28, 2018 21:34:26 GMT
From what I've heard about the books, Celene and Briala's relationship is all sorts of screwed up. Celene kills her parents, purges her alianage, imprisons her but reassures her that she will make visits when she's horny (if anyone actually read the books, feel free to correct me) That's basically it, yeah. Not to mention, burning Halamshiral was her was her way of discouraging rumors that her relationship with Briala was causing her to be too lenient on the elven rebels - "see, I'm not soft on the elves! Just to prove it I'm going to burn the shit out of them." She had sex with Briala for years without mentioning that she was responsible for her parents' death. She compares Briala's brown skin/hair/eyes to mud. Eeewww Celene. Ew. edit: correction, she called her hair "horse-dung brown" when they were younger
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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Jan 28, 2018 23:17:22 GMT
I'm more or less fine with the choices I made.
In Hushed Whispers - Conscripted the Mages. There's no way I was going to leave them off the hook for betraying Arl Teagan to Tevinter. I'm Pro-Mage to the extreme, but Fiona is a colossal idiot who nearly doomed the rebellion. While its unfortunate we couldn't just judge her for her poor choices, the mages as a whole need to be punished for not even trying to stop the Vints. After dealing with Coryshits and atoning for their passive stupidity they can be free. Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts - Blackmail all of them. Sera was right. These people all suck. Celene is a flip-flopping politician that burned down an entire alienage because she was afraid. Sure, she has good intentions and is probably the leader Orlais needs, but her hypocrisy is staggering. Gaspard is a hypocrite as well and perhaps even a bigger one than Celene. For all his talk of hating the Game and being honorable, he still pulls the same murderous Machiavellian bullshit as Celene. The fact that he's a racist warhawk and a chevalier whose almost definitely drunkenly murdered defense-less elves, doesn't make me admire him either. I want to like and support Briala but her rebellion is doomed without the Inquisition or any other form of support. She's like the Anti-Sera. Has a lot of support from the city elves, but seemingly none among the human peasantry, which is insane to me. Actually, know that I think about it, Sera is properly in a better position to actually rebel aganist the Orlesian nobility. The Red Jennies at least have the support of city elves and human peasants, wheres Briala only has the former.
Here Lies the Abyss - Sacrifice Stroud. I makes more sense to sacrifice Hawke and have someone reliable like Stroud take the Wardens back to Weisshapt, but Hawke dying would make Varric cry and Stroud is kind of boring anyways.
Divine Election - Steeled Leliana. Yeah, I'm not a fan of her liberal use of the murderknife but those Chantry sisters were the ones who did start off the rebellion in the first place and she was ultimately just defending herself. Besides, the Chantry actually becoming a charitable organization and opening itself up to other races and men seems like the type of positive change the religion desperately needs.
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Post by inquisitor007 on Jan 28, 2018 23:37:44 GMT
I think Leliana was born to be the Divine. I can't see anyone else in that role.
As for Hawke, I can't see any Inquisitor who cares one iota for Varric - and has probably been subjected to countless stories from their Kirkwall days - actually choosing to sacrifice him over Stroud.
As for the Briala/Celene/Gaspard deal, I think it best to take a pragmatic approach and just 'play nice' with all three. Kings and empresses are not usually nice people. A politically astute Inquisitor would know that and develop a good relationship with them if she could.
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Post by blighted on Jan 29, 2018 0:39:53 GMT
It's kind of strange that Leliana doesn't get any points from Celene and Briala's reconciliation. Not really. Let's not forget that Leliana, too, was victim (to Bioware's morbid fascination with unhealthy lesbian relationships) to a known player of the Game ex-girlfriend who betrayed her. I think the only reason she doesn't get negative points for this choice, is because she knows she can still use Briala while she's in (somewhat) power with Celene.
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Post by melbella on Jan 29, 2018 1:21:14 GMT
I don't see much of what we did in DAI as having much effect if we end up based in Tevinter. Who's Divine won't matter if we're in the middle of a qunari vs vint war. Who's leading Orlais won't matter if we're (pleasepleasepleeeeease) exploring Kal'Sharok. I imagine who drank the well will have as much impact as whether Kieran exists or not - ie none, other than a different scene but ending in the same result. If we never hear of or from Morrigan again, I won't shed a single tear but I think that is too much to hope for.
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 29, 2018 1:38:21 GMT
I predict a codex entry that will mention "Divine Victoria" in suitably vague terms.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 29, 2018 1:45:21 GMT
I'm more or less fine with the choices I made. In Hushed Whispers - Conscripted the Mages. There's no way I was going to leave them off the hook for betraying Arl Teagan to Tevinter. I'm Pro-Mage to the extreme, but Fiona is a colossal idiot who nearly doomed the rebellion. While its unfortunate we couldn't just judge her for her poor choices, the mages as a whole need to be punished for not even trying to stop the Vints. After dealing with Coryshits and atoning for their passive stupidity they can be free. Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts - Blackmail all of them. Sera was right. These people all suck. Celene is a flip-flopping politician that burned down an entire alienage because she was afraid. Sure, she has good intentions and is probably the leader Orlais needs, but her hypocrisy is staggering. Gaspard is a hypocrite as well and perhaps even a bigger one than Celene. For all his talk of hating the Game and being honorable, he still pulls the same murderous Machiavellian bullshit as Celene. The fact that he's a racist warhawk and a chevalier whose almost definitely drunkenly murdered defense-less elves, doesn't make me admire him either. I want to like and support Briala but her rebellion is doomed without the Inquisition or any other form of support. She's like the Anti-Sera. Has a lot of support from the city elves, but seemingly none among the human peasantry, which is insane to me. Actually, know that I think about it, Sera is properly in a better position to actually rebel aganist the Orlesian nobility. The Red Jennies at least have the support of city elves and human peasants, wheres Briala only has the former. Here Lies the Abyss - Sacrifice Stroud. I makes more sense to sacrifice Hawke and have someone reliable like Stroud take the Wardens back to Weisshapt, but Hawke dying would make Varric cry and Stroud is kind of boring anyways. Divine Election - Steeled Leliana. Yeah, I'm not a fan of her liberal use of the murderknife but those Chantry sisters were the ones who did start off the rebellion in the first place and she was ultimately just defending herself. Besides, the Chantry actually becoming a charitable organization and opening itself up to other races and men seems like the type of positive change the religion desperately needs. Perhaps, Fiona committed a mistake, but I hate the collective punishment. (And not even want to punish Fiona, but this is another question.) To say to people, who were prisoners in their whole life innocently, "you are our prisoners" just seems evil. Not mentioned, now, again innocently, for Fiona's mistake. First, they were imprisoned for some idiot ancient Magisters' 1000 years old sin, now, because their leader misled by someone else. This is just not righteous. No matter, later they can be free. The principle is important. Of course, would be nice to recruit them, as a part of the Inquisition, but not as prisoners.
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