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Post by SofaJockey on Jan 31, 2018 19:41:53 GMT
Making an 'Open World' truly compelling is harder than it may appear. BioWare have had 'open zones' before in Dragon Age Inquisition and Mass Effect Andromeda, but not yet a 'contiguous open world'. What do you think it actually takes to make a great one?
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XBL Gamertag: Chris2k30
PSN: Simit2k30
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Post by simit on Jan 31, 2018 20:22:45 GMT
DA2 narrative, for me, would've made a better open world than DA:I, DA:I narrative reeks of urgency in the same way DA:O was urgent, but it is to a point ruined because "just one more flower", W3 worked for me simply because i took it as a father looking for daughter scenario an thus in aspects didn't have the narrative of world/civilization/life ending urgency
So i guess, for me, what makes a great open world is narrative an i guess it pacing, if your going to make a open world game keep the main quest simple an not some world ending scenario because ultimately the slow pace of open world will ruin it, the main quest can be simple an effective thus allowing more simple but effective side stories
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Post by river82 on Jan 31, 2018 21:26:25 GMT
What do you think it actually takes to make a great one? The ability for players to construct their own narrative
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Post by natetrace on Feb 1, 2018 0:13:19 GMT
I'm not sure. I like games like that but I also liked Inquisition for its variety of areas as opposed to a Fallout where it's all one. I still think you need a solid backbone to the game (good/great combat and story) to give structure to the open world. I don't mind Destiny, but I think BioWare can outdo Bungie by miles here.
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Post by Superhik on Feb 1, 2018 1:58:47 GMT
Entirely depends on core gameplay. For this, seems obvious combat in front? Enemy AI, encounter design, interaction with the world. I'd say Far Cry games, Stalker and Horizon are the best when it comes to creating very dynamic, emergent gameplay.
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Post by vhiran on Feb 1, 2018 4:19:19 GMT
DA2 narrative, for me, would've made a better open world than DA:I, DA:I narrative reeks of urgency in the same way DA:O was urgent, but it is to a point ruined because "just one more flower", W3 worked for me simply because i took it as a father looking for daughter scenario an thus in aspects didn't have the narrative of world/civilization/life ending urgency So i guess, for me, what makes a great open world is narrative an i guess it pacing, if your going to make a open world game keep the main quest simple an not some world ending scenario because ultimately the slow pace of open world will ruin it, the main quest can be simple an effective thus allowing more simple but effective side stories Funny how I almost never see anyone ripping Witcher 3 for all the fucking around you are encouraged to do while looking for Ciri, upon whom the literal fate of the world hangs.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Feb 1, 2018 4:31:38 GMT
Lot's of things make a great open world, but that's not what we want, really. What makes a great open world in the context of a great story, or in the context of great gameplay? That's the question.
We already have an example of an open world that is great in a number of different dimensions, but has a weak story and is boring as hell to play: No Man's Sky.
In the context of a great story, the story should influence the world, and the world should influence the story. It stands to reason, since in the real world, deep water and terrain strongly influence geopolitics. Why shouldn't obstacles in the world influence the story? And likewise, if the story is an epic, cataclysmic changes should happen to the world.
In the context of great gameplay, traversing the world needs to have options and challenges. I like that Anthem has already shown flying and swimming. We need to see climbing and jumping as well. That would be a great start. Then we need interesting things to fly/swim/climb/jump through/under/up/over.
For both great story and gameplay, a great open world needs a high interest-to-area ratio. Open worlds with all the interesting stuff packed into one town and a few dungeons, and a vast wasteland of nothing special and repetitive random encounters are not great. Every square foot of the world needs to be packed with something interesting to see or do. I call this the "Interest Density" of the world/map, and one of the cheapest ways to achieve it is to reduce the overall area of the open world. When people say they liked "closed/linear worlds", like DAO, better, what I believe they really mean is that they prefer worlds where the Interest Density is high. You can still do that in an open world, you just have to put a lot more work into making every square foot interesting. Or, at least, if you have a stretch of boring land -- like, for narrative purposes (the DAI slog through the snow-blind storm, for example) -- surround it with ultra-high density interest so that the local average is as good as the rest of the world.
Now, what some people find interesting may be sheer boredom to others, so you need to make sure you are designing for all four player types: Explorers, Achievers, Killers and Socializers.
Explorers are easiest, just make really interesting things to see once you traverse the world to get there. Like a giant cheese falling on a dude's head (gonna be lots of DAI references in this).
Achievers are a little tougher, but tie achievements and leaderboards to traversal of the world (like climb Sunstop Mountain in the Hissing Wastes), or fly through the 12 Arches Monument in under 60 seconds, or find an undiscovered ruin to claim as your personal castle, etc., etc., and it can be done.
Killers aren't as easy as it seems. Killing random mobs isn't enough. There have to be bosses, and preferably, a series of bosses, combined with traversing the world. DAI Descent kind of thing. Plenty of set piece battles all over the map. And, nirvana for the Killer is lots of PvP opportunities, but I'm hoping they don't go that far.
Finally, Socializers. They might be the toughest to please. Just shoving everyone into one Hub won't cut it. There might have to be several interesting watering holes, stations, ruins, or even a peaceful forest glade, where people will gather.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Feb 1, 2018 4:44:52 GMT
DA2 narrative, for me, would've made a better open world than DA:I, DA:I narrative reeks of urgency in the same way DA:O was urgent, but it is to a point ruined because "just one more flower", W3 worked for me simply because i took it as a father looking for daughter scenario an thus in aspects didn't have the narrative of world/civilization/life ending urgency So i guess, for me, what makes a great open world is narrative an i guess it pacing, if your going to make a open world game keep the main quest simple an not some world ending scenario because ultimately the slow pace of open world will ruin it, the main quest can be simple an effective thus allowing more simple but effective side stories Funny how I almost never see anyone ripping Witcher 3 for all the fucking around you are encouraged to do while looking for Ciri, upon whom the literal fate of the world hangs. Well, Geralt doesn't learn that until towards the end of the game. Unlike in DAI, where you know you are The Chosen One before you even gain control of your character!
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Post by Pounce de León on Feb 1, 2018 13:43:01 GMT
Interesting places, e.g.:
mountains, peaks (need to be climbable) architecture vista points rivers bridges towers harbours, airports, industry believable settlements hubs to come back to bases to set out from word from a settlement (lol, no)
For me they are the true walking simulators, the stuff needs to be arranged so it's visible, accessible and meaningful. Take for example LA Noire - the city is pretty much facade to drive through, you don't really want to get out and discover stuff. In contrast take FO4 - the landscape contains enough places to wonder "What is this? What might be there?" and it ties in meaningfully to the whole world (because it's a simplified mockup of real world locations). Fallout "worlds" are probably the strongest ones with their insiration they take from the real world place. Skyrim is built nicely but there's a couple of wastes that are too bland, especially the northern icy region.
Add in some nice combat, a levelling system with interesting tools to play arund , maybe some crafting and that's pretty much it. Story is mostly just the line of guidance to have me visit the places and conquer the "world".
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N6
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Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Heimdall
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Post by Heimdall on Feb 1, 2018 14:47:48 GMT
Bioware can make big worlds that are visually interesting, but where games like Inquisition and Andromeda have stumbled is in making sure it is populated with interesting things to do.
I don’t know if this will work with how Bioware structures the game world, but I think some sort of regularly occurring gameplay event like Destiny’s public events would possibly be an effective option.
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Post by Iakus on Feb 1, 2018 16:12:58 GMT
Well, thus far the king of open worlds has been Bethesda with their Elder Scrolls games. What to them makes it interesting is the ability for players to create their own stories and adventures an insert them into the map. That's what got me from playing 20 hours and getting bored when Skyrim first came out to a playthrough lasting more than 200 hours years later when I found some interesting mods.
Somehow, I doubt Anthem will be that type of game, though...
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Feb 2, 2018 3:41:05 GMT
Well, thus far the king of open worlds has been Bethesda with their Elder Scrolls games. What to them makes it interesting is the ability for players to create their own stories and adventures an insert them into the map. That's what got me from playing 20 hours and getting bored when Skyrim first came out to a playthrough lasting more than 200 hours years later when I found some interesting mods. I dunno. I think The Witcher 3 might be giving old Skyrim a run for the money. I guess it will depend on what you measure. If it's total hours of enjoyment/replayability, yeah, Skyrim is still king. It's still king for customization, also. If it's just about any other metric, I think TW3 takes the crown.
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Twitter Guru
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Origin: Hrungr
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Post by Hrungr on Feb 2, 2018 5:36:04 GMT
Ideally I'd like to see a combination of BioWare & Bethesda's eye for interesting environments, coupled with more Witcher 3-style fleshed-out quests which often have unexpected twists and turns. Also, I like multi-part quests which are broken up over the course of the game. They can help reinforce that sense of progression. Surprise players with the environment design and random encounters. Have areas which are complete left-turns from what players expect. Subvert players' expectations every once in a while in your missions. Maybe introduce a chance for a random events/creatures in "dungeons" that players are expected to visit time and again to keep it fresh and players on their toes. Also, have Easter Eggs a'plenty, everybody loves 'em, and it encourages exploration. And, while not to be overused, having the occasional offbeat/funny encounter or mission can be a welcome break from the usual grind. Sometimes they can among the most memorable parts of a game.
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Post by Sanunes on Feb 2, 2018 6:28:45 GMT
I think a good open world designed game needs a good anchor point for the game to revolve around and I never got that feeling from Andromeda. Now I played The Witcher 3, but one day I stopped playing and just never felt the urge to go back to it. With the Witcher 3 it felt like the game revolved around Geralt so he was the static element of the game with very little growth as a character. He made choices in the world, but the world changed with those choices and not Geralt. Now with Andromeda it felt like they were trying to get Ryder to evolve and the world to change to that, but at the same time they were trying to make the world evolve and have Ryder change to that. Its like spinning plates, spin too many and everything breaks.
The other problem I had with Andromeda is the amount of chasing around and what felt like poor quest design. Too many times I felt like I was stuck driving long distances for a quest or had to travel between multiple load screens multiple times to complete a quest. Returning to a planet is fine, but having to do it six or seven times to advance the story and then after advancing the story you would need to go back again and again and not require a player to have deep knowledge of the quests to know what order to do them in to minimize the traveling.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Feb 2, 2018 9:19:42 GMT
Also, I like multi-part quests which are broken up over the course of the game. They can help reinforce that sense of progression. The other problem I had with Andromeda is the amount of chasing around and what felt like poor quest design. Too many times I felt like I was stuck driving long distances for a quest or had to travel between multiple load screens multiple times to complete a quest. Returning to a planet is fine, but having to do it six or seven times to advance the story and then after advancing the story you would need to go back again and again and not require a player to have deep knowledge of the quests to know what order to do them in to minimize the traveling. MEA's "progression" quest design was the worst most infuriating abomination I have ever experienced. It was the worst aspect of the game to me that made me actively HATE doing quests and therefore the game itself. And I even ignored all the fetch quests. Too bad 90% of the regular quests were dull fetch quests as well. Whoever came up with this nonsense should have been slapped across the face, hard. Why did I have to go to my ship to read an email when I can do this on my phone since 2010 or something? Why do I have then go back to the planet I just left to read an email so I can actually talk to that person about the email?! Quests that have multiple stages can be awesome. But what we got in MEA was so bad I could still rage about it for three pages. It's like whoever came up with this never once actually played it or they would have noticed what a ridiculous boring and unsatisfying time sink it was! For quests that were never interesting to begin with. MEA in a nutshell was: good ideas --> horrific implementation. As for what makes a good open world game, I agree with what has been said. High density of interesting locations (big cities!) and quests. The world needs to be an organic part of the narrative. It needs to complement it. See Horizon Zero Dawn. Best blend of narrative and open world to date to me because it got rid of the bloat that most open worlds suffer from and combat was super engaging. Witcher 3 has overall the most alive open world experience in a story-driven game. Bethesda does exploration best. W3 comes close in terms of exploration, it's the baby of Bethesda and Bioware to me. CDPR took the best parts of both approaches. I've said it elsewhere before, HZD is the best blueprint for Bioware. Single map without loading screens, multiple climate zones. Like DAI, only with seamless transition. Open worlds need day/night cycles. They need fun combat. HZD had it all, plus an awesome heroine and very emotional story. Taking inspiration from that map design and world building would benefit a story-light game like Anthem as well. Ideally, open worlds should be dynamic and reactive to the player's choices and story events. DAI did this ONCE with Crestwood and it was awesome. We need more of that. In W3 the witch hunt had visible effects on Novigrad. I LOVED that. Skyrim had the civil war that changed Whiterun. Dragon attacks increased as you progressed in the game. FO4 doesn't really have that but what it does have instead is settlement building which allows the player to directly shape the wasteland to a degree by building new things. If only MEA would have let us actually build cool outposts to our liking. There was little sense of progression in colonizing planets. Only a few NPCs mingling with the natives. I much appreciated it but it was underwhelming.
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Post by bladefist on Feb 2, 2018 14:36:11 GMT
The world has to feel alive. NPCs should have routines (preferably day and night) and interact with each other. In addition to loot, exploration should lead to me uncovering an interesting story with no quest attached to it.
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Post by Pounce de León on Feb 2, 2018 15:51:13 GMT
While night and day isn't a must, I usually strongly appreciate it (for my inner Khajit). It's also nice to put the engine and design to the test when evaluating the sunset/-rise.
I can play without, but the immersive factor is simply better with somewhat natural day/night cycles.
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Post by SofaJockey on Feb 2, 2018 16:01:12 GMT
While night and day isn't a must, I usually strongly appreciate it (for my inner Khajit). It's also nice to put the engine and design to the test when evaluating the sunset/-rise. I can play without, but the immersive factor is simply better with somewhat natural day/night cycles. I think we saw the day/night cycle in the teaser?
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Twitter Guru
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Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Hrungr
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Post by Hrungr on Feb 2, 2018 16:13:08 GMT
In terms of wildlife, I think it's important to have a mix of both hostile and non-hostile (or only hostile if provoked) which helps create a more believable, engrossing environment. This is one area I felt DAI got right and MEA didn't. From the Anthem gameplay trailer, it did look like there were non-hostile herd animals, and I hope that is the case.
I also think it's good idea to add a few "cute" animals to the mix as well. In DAI you had nugs and fennecs, in AC:O you can pet cats, in MH:W you have palicos... that sort of thing.
And the more "surprise" wildlife you can add, the better. I thought the blink-and-you-miss-it Venus flytrap plants were a nice touch in the trailer. And a primarily jungle environment lends itself perfectly to adding some wildlife that can blend in with it.
And speaking of surprises, maybe throw in the occasional twist to the wildlife. Maybe you encounter something normally hostile, but this one clearly looks different somehow, and behaves differently. Maybe it harmlessly follows you around for a while, or even helps you. Introduce reasons not to just gun down everything that moves.
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Post by Pounce de León on Feb 2, 2018 16:38:25 GMT
While night and day isn't a must, I usually strongly appreciate it (for my inner Khajit). It's also nice to put the engine and design to the test when evaluating the sunset/-rise. I can play without, but the immersive factor is simply better with somewhat natural day/night cycles. I think we saw the day/night cycle in the teaser? I think it looked good. But it means shit if the gameplay doesn't support it. E.g. can't have the same pop running around doing daywork at night. Need night critters. Needs to support different sensory input, like sounds. Also, I think MEA could have used a couple of avian critters. There's no avians. In general there is too few critter variety.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Feb 2, 2018 17:52:34 GMT
I think we saw the day/night cycle in the teaser? I think it looked good. But it means shit if the gameplay doesn't support it. E.g. can't have the same pop running around doing daywork at night. Need night critters. Needs to support different sensory input, like sounds. Also, I think MEA could have used a couple of avian critters. There's no avians. In general there is too few critter variety. Yes. Also, I your new name
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∯ Interjector in Chief
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Heimdall
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Origin: HeimdallX
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Post by Heimdall on Feb 2, 2018 18:42:35 GMT
In terms of wildlife, I think it's important to have a mix of both hostile and non-hostile (or only hostile if provoked) which helps create a more believable, engrossing environment. This is one area I felt DAI got right and MEA didn't. From the Anthem gameplay trailer, it did look like there were non-hostile herd animals, and I hope that is the case. I also think it's good idea to add a few "cute" animals to the mix as well. In DAI you had nugs and fennecs, in AC:O you can pet cats, in MH:W you have palicos... that sort of thing. And the more "surprise" wildlife you can add, the better. I thought the blink-and-you-miss-it Venus flytrap plants were a nice touch in the trailer. And a primarily jungle environment lends itself perfectly to adding some wildlife that can blend in with it. And speaking of surprises, maybe throw in the occasional twist to the wildlife. Maybe you encounter something normally hostile, but this one clearly looks different somehow, and behaves differently. Maybe it harmlessly follows you around for a while, or even helps you. Introduce reasons not to just gun down everything that moves. Brenon did mention there were non-hostile critters didn’t he?
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Post by bladefist on Feb 2, 2018 18:52:56 GMT
While night and day isn't a must, I usually strongly appreciate it (for my inner Khajit). It's also nice to put the engine and design to the test when evaluating the sunset/-rise. I can play without, but the immersive factor is simply better with somewhat natural day/night cycles. I think we saw the day/night cycle in the teaser? Nice, they'll be able to put more focus on the world than any of their previous games.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Feb 2, 2018 21:06:04 GMT
Also, I think MEA could have used a couple of avian critters. There's no avians. In general there is too few critter variety. There are avians in MEA. Not avians you can shoot at or interact with in any way, but there were at least two types. The big floating whale things on Havarl, and birds/insects on Elaaden. I say you can't shoot at them, but that didn't stop me from trying.
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Hrungr
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More coffee...? More coffee.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
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Post by Hrungr on Feb 2, 2018 21:12:32 GMT
Also, I think MEA could have used a couple of avian critters. There's no avians. In general there is too few critter variety. There are avians in MEA. Not avians you can shoot at or interact with in any way, but there were at least two types. The big floating whale things on Havarl, and birds/insects on Elaaden. I say you can't shoot at them, but that didn't stop me from trying. Can't surfboard 'em either... so disappointed... i.imgur.com/KyUKfsK.jpg
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