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Post by Walter Black on Feb 3, 2018 1:45:55 GMT
Solas intends to bring down the Veil, destroy modern Thedas, and return magic and the elves to their "proper" place. In Dragon Age 2 Sandal made a prophecy that "the magic would could back and everyone would be like they were". Some players think DA4 will somehow allow us to mitigate the damage while giving magic to everyone, others think it's a bad idea? Thoughts?
Yes, bring down the Veil and make everyone mages.
- Everyone will have magic, and mages will no longer be marginalized. All people will access to wondrous powers, gain a greater respect for the previous mages and spirits/demons, and be able to achieve new consciousness.
- From a narrative standpoint, it creates a new status quo and opens up new story possibilities. With the whole mages versus mundanes plot thrown out, the writers will have to come up with different scenarios, new character archetypes, and explore how every nations' cultures change.
- For level design, the devs can create entirely new and psychedelic areas. These new Fade wrought landscapes can offer new and interesting aesthetics, as well as alternate travel and combat options.
- From a gameplay standpoint, players will have a classless system to choose any number of ability combinations, both for the PC and party members. Tactics that were previously impossible can now be implemented for new styles of combat.
- For players who don't like DA mages, this could be an unexpected godsend; guess what mages, you're not special snowflakes living off the government and competing in the Oppression Olympics anymore ! Time to quit your whining, get off your lazy asses and get real jobs like everyone else !
No, removing the Veil is stupid for both in-universe and meta reasons.
- Saying "we can just ignore all the death and destruction and reap the benefits" is too cheap, easy and lazy in my eyes. Even if Solas is the one tearing down the Veil, allowing the players to remove the majority of negative consequences, all in the name of wish fulfillment, completely destroys the history, tone and maturity of Dragon Age. DA is supposed to be an adult series that explores all the positive and negative aspects of a given scenario, and not sheepishly hide them to cater to adolescent power fantasies or avoid making people think.
- Far from equalizing everyone, those who were previously the only mages will have the advantage, since everyone else will have no idea how to use their new powers. Old mages will leverage their superior knowledge into taking over and getting revenge on their previous oppressors, not caring who gets caught in the crossfire. That, or the writers will ignore human nature and give them the moral high ground, thus playing into the whole "we were right all along" and "they were just jealous of us because we really ARE better than they are " tripe.
- The vast majority of fantasy action/adventure/RPG hybrids today already have multiclassing or classless systems. Having magic only open to a few made Dragon Age stand out as unique, both from a storytelling and gameplay perspective. Which party member you used and when had more weight, and made your choices more strategic. Take that away, and DA loses one more portion of it's identity. Really, if you want multiclassed/classless combat so much, why not just stick to The Elder Scrolls, The Witcher series, Final Fantasy, Pillars of Eternity 2, the Breath of Fire series, Tyranny, Shaowrun or any number of other games, and let DA remain it's own thing?
- There's so much of Thedas we still haven't seen; Tevinter, the Anderfells, Kal-Sharok, Rivain, Nevara, Antiva, Seheron, Par Vollen, the land of the Executors and so many others. Bringing down the Veil would radically alter their cultures and prevent us from experiencing them in their original and individual state. What makes the Magocracy different from regularly decadent nobles if everyone is a mage now? What's the point of Rivani Seer's Natural Way philosophies is spirits and demons can move openly?
- Even if the player defeats him, there's a part of me that doesn't like the idea of the meta narrative ultimately proving Solas right. All those innocent people who died, their souls raped and lands ravaged? They never mattered, because MAGIC IS BACK BITCHES ! Even if you kill him, the Dread Wolf's martyr complex gets the smug satisfaction that all the destruction he caused served the greater good. That HE was right and YOU were wrong.
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Post by vertigomez on Feb 3, 2018 1:55:42 GMT
No, but what I want doesn't really matter.
I don't want everyone to be mages because there are plenty of times I don't want to play a mage and everyone being mages kind of... puts a crimp.... in that. I've always hated that almost every class in D&D and TES incorporates magic in some way, so much so that rolling a plain ol' swordsman, assassin, or archer is considered unusual. No, they've gotta be magic swords! Magic arrows! Bleugh.
Plus, I don't want to inflict that on Fenris and Sera and Bull. Like wtf.
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Post by jnericsonx on Feb 3, 2018 1:56:07 GMT
A happy medium is that some area or areas the Veil is down for good, but in others, no, it's forever there.
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Post by OhDaniGirl on Feb 3, 2018 2:07:58 GMT
Oooh, this is a tough one. On the one hand, I really want to see what a veil-less Thedas looks like, but on the other, I don't want everyone to become mages. So it would either have to be like jrenicsonx suggests, or do some sort of flashbacks or something.
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Post by Walter Black on Feb 3, 2018 2:17:29 GMT
A happy medium is that some area or areas the Veil is down for good, but in others, no, it's forever there. I thought about that, but it seemed too wishy-washy. Plus, it would be a nightmare to code; what happens to your characters' abilities when you move between Veiled and non-Veiled areas?
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Feb 3, 2018 2:26:04 GMT
There needs to be an OH, HELL NO! option in the poll.
I also like the idea that it partially comes down -- because you fuck up Solas's ritual before he can finish it. Or, a Blight breaks out or the Titans start throwing mountains around and spoil the ritual, and you have to team up with Solas to save the world. Enemy of my enemy, kind of thing.
That's not wishy-washy, that's entirely in line with their whole nothing ever goes to plan and unforeseen consequences and no one ever achieves total victory. Total tear-down or total status quo are the options that are out of character for DA. And Maker forbid that they turn it into a player choice!
With respect to the coding part, if they can do the freeze zones in JoH and the anti-magic AoE of Greater Terrors, they can do holes in the Veil. Or they can do entire map zones if it really is that hard. The Veil is huge, so a hole the size of, I dunno, the Western Approach, should be common.
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Post by vertigomez on Feb 3, 2018 2:34:23 GMT
A happy medium is that some area or areas the Veil is down for good, but in others, no, it's forever there. I thought about that, but it seemed too wishy-washy. Plus, it would be a nightmare to code; what happens to your characters' abilities when you move between Veiled and non-Veiled areas? I'd imagine something like a reverse Spellplague... magic ceases to function in some areas, in others it's wildly unstable, spells are suddenly unreliable so you could be trying to light a candle and end up burning your house down. And whole swathes of previously recognizable land would start to resemble the Fade...
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Post by Walter Black on Feb 3, 2018 2:36:30 GMT
I thought about that, but it seemed too wishy-washy. Plus, it would be a nightmare to code; what happens to your characters' abilities when you move between Veiled and non-Veiled areas? I'd imagine something like a reverse Spellplague... magic ceases to function in some areas, in others it's wildly unstable, spells are suddenly unreliable so you could be trying to light a candle and end up burning your house down. And whole swathes of previously recognizable land would start to resemble the Fade... But how would that affect actual game mechanics?
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Post by jnericsonx on Feb 3, 2018 2:37:21 GMT
A happy medium is that some area or areas the Veil is down for good, but in others, no, it's forever there. I thought about that, but it seemed too wishy-washy. Plus, it would be a nightmare to code; what happens to your characters' abilities when you move between Veiled and non-Veiled areas? Simple-some kind of bonus/effect gets added, or the nature of it changes a bit.
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Post by vertigomez on Feb 3, 2018 2:39:45 GMT
I'd imagine something like a reverse Spellplague... magic ceases to function in some areas, in others it's wildly unstable, spells are suddenly unreliable so you could be trying to light a candle and end up burning your house down. And whole swathes of previously recognizable land would start to resemble the Fade... But how would that affect actual game mechanics? Your spells crap out in some places and get super powerful in others? Kind of like Wild Magic. So there'd just be penalties/bonuses for certain zones.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Feb 3, 2018 3:20:50 GMT
No, but what I want doesn't really matter. I don't want everyone to be mages because there are plenty of times I don't want to play a mage and everyone being mages kind of... puts a crimp.... in that. I've always hated that almost every class in D&D and TES incorporates magic in some way, so much so that rolling a plain ol' swordsman, assassin, or archer is considered unusual. No, they've gotta be magic swords! Magic arrows! Bleugh. Plus, I don't want to inflict that on Fenris and Sera and Bull. Like wtf. Same for me. Also, I hadn't thought of that last bit before; good point! I like that there is a separation of magic that is dictated in the lore, what that has meant for mages in the North and South, how those cultures have developed differently because of it. The way Dragon Age treats mages and magic is different from many fantasy universes and I want it to stay that way.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2018 3:25:02 GMT
On the one hand, yeah I'd love to see the entire slate wiped clean and start over, b/c I am bored to death of the shuffled Europeland sort of setting as it exists. I'd rather play a game entirely in the Deep Roads or the Fade than in Middle Westeros, I mean continental Thedas. Also, that would allow for getting rid of the majority of the old cast so they can't be carried over indefinitely.
On the other hand, I really hate post-Apocalypse survival stories, and that could definitely be the gameplay situation/setting if the Veil is removed too quickly or improperly. I really want to either fight or meet the rest of the Evanuris, so I'm hoping at least some of them escaped while there was a giant hole in the Veil, and one or more of them creates problems we haven't even considered.
I'm also all for the third option of creating Veil-less "Fadelands" where the elves and spirits can live their best lives and rule themselves though completely inhospitable for humans/dwarves/qunari). Would definitely have interesting political implications depending on where they carve it out (probably the Dales), or if they made it in a Crossroads like place and suddenly there are Eluvian toll-roads and the elves have a new empire that for the most part humans will never see.
The plot threads they've left for us are all for finishing what the Inquisitor started, while Tevinter deals with brewing slave insurrection and a Qunari invasion, the Wardens deal with whatever they're dealing with, and Seheron possibly becomes everyone's problem. So, imo, it's unlikely the Veil will be collapsed or further toyed with until those issues have been dealt with.
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Post by vertigomez on Feb 3, 2018 3:27:23 GMT
I hadn't thought of that last bit before; good point! I think about it way too much. It breaks my heart to think of them suddenly having magic, how terrified and violated they would feel.
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Post by Obsidian Gryphon on Feb 3, 2018 3:47:32 GMT
If the Veil comes down, there will be chaos on a grander scale than the Breach. Those who are trained to be mages would have the control over the magics. Those who are not would not have any control; imagine a family all suddenly throwing out all kinds of basic spells like fire, ice, etc when the event happens. BOOM. Imagine the global carnage and confusion, the fear and distrust. Made worse by the appearance of spirits and the change in environment. Social cohesion would unravel.
Do I want the Veil to come down? I'd rather it be a partial drop than an entire drop. I can't imagine what the game setting would be like with a complete unveiling.
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Post by Fredward on Feb 3, 2018 5:46:37 GMT
I'm pretty on the fence with it, currently leaning towards yes. I don't want it to be a costless thing though, I want the Veil coming down to require a fundamental restructuring of society on every level. I wanna see the kind of setting Solas described, a perfect syncretization between the Fade and reality, where spirits and people intermingle. At the same time I wonder how they'd pull it off, either they wouldn't wind up changing all that much and the only practical consequence would be that everyone has magic now or they'd change a lot and the setting would be entirely unrecognizable. If well done I wouldn't actually have a problem with the latter but I'm much more inclined to expect the former. I also feel like it'd be a good sendoff to the series if that's what it comes down to.
OTOH I really want to punch Solas stupid face and I dislike the idea of him winning, doesn't make for a hugely compelling reason. I also like that mages are special, coming with their own drawbacks and concerns (and privileges as is going to be the case in Tevinter).
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Post by vertigomez on Feb 3, 2018 5:52:50 GMT
I expect that if Solas does succeed and the Veil is destroyed, it'll be the end of the Dragon Age as we know it - both in universe and out. It'll be called the [Whatever] Age and new games/comics/etc. will be rebranded as such. A timeskip.
Like the difference between Avatar: the Last Airbender and The Legend of Korra.
I can't say I'm looking forward to that, though.
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Post by TheodoricFriede on Feb 3, 2018 6:58:42 GMT
I think it is the worst possible idea on so many levels.
Solas is a great character. Hes not a good person. He's Loki, and not Marval's charming anti-hero.
When dealing with a pantheon of gods, never trust the god of trickery or rebellion. Especially when they aren't as smart as they think they are. I forget the mission name, but Redcliffs little preview of coming events is a good example of what happens when the Veil goes bye-bye.
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Post by Hrungr on Feb 3, 2018 7:21:43 GMT
I know we've touched on this in other threads, and my vote is also for "Option 3" - the Veil starts to come down, but we're able to contain it to a single region. Perhaps something the size of a small country, with a good variety of environments.
That way you have your cool "Fadelands" playground/nation, but you're not flipping the entire setting on its head. Especially since there's a lot of it we haven't even explored yet.
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Post by theascendent on Feb 3, 2018 7:38:06 GMT
More magic in the world? Yes please.
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 3, 2018 8:35:16 GMT
A world with the Veil down would be awfully weird. I'm not sure Bio's writers would feel comfortable continuing that way. For purposes of the poll, are we assuming that they would be, and a yes vote isn't tantamount to voting to end the series?
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Post by thats1evildude on Feb 3, 2018 8:42:28 GMT
Assuming that tearing down the Veil doesn’t end in apocalyptic hellfire, it isn’t going to get rid of oppression; it’ll just create new systems of oppression, as the strongest mages will rule over everyone else.
A thought occurred to me the other day: why do the Dalish appoint mages as their leaders? And then I realized it’s because that’s how things were done in Arlathan, where the greatest mages got to rule over the rest of the peons. Without realizing it, the “true elves” are just perpetuating the system that made their ancestors into slaves to capricious “gods.”
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Post by fylimar on Feb 3, 2018 9:06:30 GMT
I like post-apocalyptic stories, but I also want to see the other countries as they were - Rivain, Antiva, Nevarra etc. Plus it would only create a new power struggle, as was pointed out - mages with training against the people who just got their magic. There will be lot's of death - and I'm pretty sure that Morrigan will yet survive again, so no benefit for me there. And I don't want that arrogant egghead getting what he wants. I like the idea of the Fadelands, Hrungr suggested - a country or landscape, where the veil came down. It could become a bit the North beyond the wall in A Song of Ice and Fire or that landscape in Legend of the Five Rings, that is sealed off with a wall, where Onis roam and strange things happen. And please let that part be in Orlais So I'm for option 3: a partial fall of the veil
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Post by Tittus on Feb 3, 2018 9:15:31 GMT
Particularly, I want to outsmart Solas and make him regret that he didn't kill one of my inquisitors in trespasser while he had the chance.
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Post by isaidlunch on Feb 3, 2018 12:53:17 GMT
I'd lose all faith in the series if the Veil doesn't come down. To waste all that foreshadowing and story potential would be criminal.
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Post by davesin on Feb 3, 2018 13:10:38 GMT
I expect the Veil to get mess with at some point, preferably destroying some iconic place of franchise that would serve as battleground, but I think it will get to the normal (as "us normal", not "Solas normal") state again. I don't think I would like "everyone is mage" (well, everyone who would survive, anyway) scenario.
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