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Post by Babar Guy on Feb 3, 2018 13:19:49 GMT
Whether or not genocide on a global scale is necessary for it to happen has a pretty big impact on my answer.
Definitely gonna take a hard pass if Solas' method is the only way to do it.
Plus I don't think the setting should ever be so fundamentally altered.
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Post by Sah291 on Feb 3, 2018 14:28:10 GMT
I want to see it come down. Though, I doubt it will end up being exactly how we would expect and won't simply be a magic utopia.
First of all, I would think, current mages are going to actually struggle the most, because all of their training was built around there being a veil. Think of the rift magic trainer. New and younger mages will have it come more easily, possibly creating a big gap between those who adapt and those that can't. Lots of potential for conflict there (plus DAI basically already foreshadowed a major schism between mages). There will probably be a race to control the Fade, whoever has power there could become the dominate race/society in this new world. Solas is hoping it will be elves, but maybe it won't. Its a new frontier to be conquered.
Secondly, I think it's just an interesting idea, that has lots of relevent real world parallels. Think of the internet for example. Older folk are used to there being a separation between online and offline, public and private, physical and virtual, etc. And yet we are heading to a time where these concepts are becoming blurred. We are increasingly always online, always connected, interacting in virtual spaces. Could be an interesting theme for DA to explore.
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Post by Reznore on Feb 3, 2018 14:52:39 GMT
No. I'm very qunari about the veil.
For me one of the theme of DA is how people deal with the terrific power that is magic. It would be very bizarre if the veil would get destroyed because the world without the veil and its resulting super powerful mages simply self-destroyed. It was either 7 godlike tyrants mages destroy the world, or one godlike mage destroy the world but leaves some wiggle room for something new.
That something new is current Thedas. Sure it's far from perfect but every massive apocalypse looming is always something related to pre veil area. I'm pretty sure the Blight and the Golden City can be traced back to the ancient elves.
Anyway Solas bringing down the veil and the time of the elves is like Tevinter taking back the South, the Dalish rebuilding a great elven empire, the dwarves retaking the Deep Roads or the Qunari taking Thedas. Probably not happening any time soon.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2018 15:46:44 GMT
I do, at least in part want the Veil to come down. I don't think it will be some kind of cataclysmic event that will destroy all life in Thedas, and I suspect even Solas doesn't really know for sure what will happen, other than the Evanuris will come back. I strongly believe that the people of Thedas are a lot stronger and more resilient than Solas thinks they are, and I think it will give an advantage to elves that they will need to survive. Also being a mage would become a non-issue if everyone is connected to the Fade again. Not sure what will happen to dwarfs or qunari, but I bet it will be exciting. Things will change some for the better and some things will get worse, but I find the idea of the veil coming down thrilling and I like that in my games.
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Post by vertigomez on Feb 3, 2018 15:52:48 GMT
I also don't want to open the character creation screen and have all my options be mages. :sob:
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Post by Sah291 on Feb 3, 2018 16:12:39 GMT
I also don't want to open the character creation screen and have all my options be mages. Well, it's not even clear all the elves pre Veil were mages. Magic was probably just a more familiar part of society. Then again, the trend (as we saw with the profiles in MEA), is to go classless, so they may do something like this anyway, opening all abilities to everyone. Dropping the veil is at least a good narrative excuse to do it, without the MC needing to become some kind of superhuman with special powers. The other way they could go about it, would be having the MC merged with a spirit, perhaps.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2018 16:14:49 GMT
When it comes to classes and skills, if they went the Skyrim route it honestly wouldn't matter to me. If you want to be a rogue focus on rogue skills, same for mage and warrior, just ignore the skills that don't interest you. That being said, I seriously doubt BioWare will completely tear down the Veil, and they seem pretty attached to their classes.
Maybe not having the Veil would just mean rogues and warriors would get abilities that are magic enhanced, but still distinctly rogue warrior skills.
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Post by arvaarad on Feb 3, 2018 16:35:46 GMT
I want to see it come down. Though, I doubt it will end up being exactly how we would expect and won't simply be a magic utopia. First of all, I would think, current mages are going to actually struggle the most, because all of their training was built around there being a veil. Think of the rift magic trainer. New and younger mages will have it come more easily, possibly creating a big gap between those who adapt and those that can't. Lots of potential for conflict there (plus DAI basically already foreshadowed a major schism between mages). There will probably be a race to control the Fade, whoever has power there could become the dominate race/society in this new world. Solas is hoping it will be elves, but maybe it won't. Its a new frontier to be conquered. Secondly, I think it's just an interesting idea, that has lots of relevent real world parallels. Think of the internet for example. Older folk are used to there being a separation between online and offline, public and private, physical and virtual, etc. And yet we are heading to a time where these concepts are becoming blurred. We are increasingly always online, always connected, interacting in virtual spaces. Could be an interesting theme for DA to explore. Exactly this. They’d suddenly be living in a world where both good and bad ideas spirits spread rapidly, where nations have easy access to world-ending firepower, where emotions are more intense and shared more with others. Where they’d need to ask hard questions about how to structure their society so they aren’t destroyed by this change. If that’s a post-apocalyptic setting, I have some bad news about the microcomputer and internet revolutions. As for combat, I’m not worried we’d lose the magic/mundane differentiation. Ancient elves frequently reference bows, knives, and other mundane weapons, and are even shown using them.
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Post by vertigomez on Feb 3, 2018 16:57:13 GMT
I also don't want to open the character creation screen and have all my options be mages. Well, it's not even clear all the elves pre Veil were mages. Magic was probably just a more familiar part of society. Then again, the trend (as we saw with the profiles in MEA), is to go classless, so they may do something like this anyway, opening all abilities to everyone. Dropping the veil is at least a good narrative excuse to do it, without the MC needing to become some kind of superhuman with special powers. The other way they could go about it, would be having the MC merged with a spirit, perhaps. I'm not thrilled about opening all abilities to everyone, but I'm fine with magic being more integrated with the world. I just hope not everyone becomes a mage. When it comes to classes and skills, if they went the Skyrim route it honestly wouldn't matter to me. If you want to be a rogue focus on rogue skills, same for mage and warrior, just ignore the skills that don't interest you. That being said, I seriously doubt BioWare will completely tear down the Veil, and they seem pretty attached to their classes. Maybe not having the Veil would just mean rogues and warriors would get abilities that are magic enhanced, but still distinctly rogue warrior skills. I get that you could still focus on one or the other, I just dislike the idea. It's the same reason I dislike tanked up Arcane Warriors with Blood Magic and Spirit Healing. I just prefer distinct classes.
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Post by Sah291 on Feb 3, 2018 17:05:33 GMT
I want to see it come down. Though, I doubt it will end up being exactly how we would expect and won't simply be a magic utopia. First of all, I would think, current mages are going to actually struggle the most, because all of their training was built around there being a veil. Think of the rift magic trainer. New and younger mages will have it come more easily, possibly creating a big gap between those who adapt and those that can't. Lots of potential for conflict there (plus DAI basically already foreshadowed a major schism between mages). There will probably be a race to control the Fade, whoever has power there could become the dominate race/society in this new world. Solas is hoping it will be elves, but maybe it won't. Its a new frontier to be conquered. Secondly, I think it's just an interesting idea, that has lots of relevent real world parallels. Think of the internet for example. Older folk are used to there being a separation between online and offline, public and private, physical and virtual, etc. And yet we are heading to a time where these concepts are becoming blurred. We are increasingly always online, always connected, interacting in virtual spaces. Could be an interesting theme for DA to explore. Exactly this. They’d suddenly be living in a world where both good and bad ideas spirits spread rapidly, where nations have easy access to world-ending firepower, where emotions are more intense and shared more with others. Where they’d need to ask hard questions about how to structure their society so they aren’t destroyed by this change. If that’s a post-apocalyptic setting, I have some bad news about the microcomputer and internet revolutions. As for combat, I’m not worried we’d lose the magic/mundane differentiation. Ancient elves frequently reference bows, knives, and other mundane weapons, and are even shown using them. Yes exactly what I was thinking...what could be more dramatic and interesting, considering current events, than bringing down the Veil? DAI sorta played around with these themes already. Institutions falling and being questioned, chaos, social unrest, war, etc. The Inquisitor stopped it and slowed it down, for now. But maybe the Veil is destined to fall anyway.
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Post by yeah rip on Feb 3, 2018 17:14:22 GMT
A happy medium is that some area or areas the Veil is down for good, but in others, no, it's forever there. We already kinda had that... with Corypheus and the rifts. And other areas that had weak veil before Cory. Not a very "happy" medium. Ignoring the fact that the world will DIE if the veil comes down (that means modern elves too btw, Solas wasn't making exceptions), everyone having magic would be a disaster. The previously non-mages will have no control over their magic. Same for the all-along-mages, probably. Scared, angry masses with magic they can't control = great idea, right? Whatever "benefits" there will be, Thedas as we know it won't be around to reap them.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Feb 3, 2018 17:43:01 GMT
b/c I am bored to death of the shuffled Europeland That has to do with regional culture, though. I don't think Orlais would suddenly cease to be Orlais if they were all mages, they'd just be Orlesian mages. The same applies to Ferelden, Rivain, Antiva and everywhere else. It'll be called the [Whatever] Age and new games/comics/etc. will be rebranded as such. I think the marketing team would highly discourage such a thing. I know we've touched on this in other threads, and my vote is also for "Option 3" - the Veil starts to come down, but we're able to contain it to a single region. Perhaps something the size of a small country, with a good variety of environments. That way you have your cool "Fadelands" playground/nation, but you're not flipping the entire setting on its head. Especially since there's a lot of it we haven't even explored yet. This is pretty good. I wouldn't mind this. It's a sort of "have your cake and eat it, too" kind of thing. The devs get to experiment a bit with different gameplay mechanics, not to mention what it means for the lore, but the world remains fundamentally the same. [edit] I'd love to see Dorian geeking out over this. XD We saw a bit of that in the library in Trespasser; I love that aspect of him. A world with the Veil down would be awfully weird. I'm not sure Bio's writers would feel comfortable continuing that way. For purposes of the poll, are we assuming that they would be, and a yes vote isn't tantamount to voting to end the series? I don't think it would mean an end to the series. Mike Laidlaw suggested there is the possibility for many more games to come. Even though he's gone now, he would know the direction the game was headed. (Yes, I know things change during development all the time.) I also don't want to open the character creation screen and have all my options be mages. I don't think that's how it would go down. If they instituted such a fundamental change, then they would probably just move to a freeform skill system like Skyrim uses -- everyone has the possibility to use magic, they just need to train those skills. You can still use a pure non-magic build if you wish. I would do that in Skyrim if one of the major plot areas didn't require that you know some magic. The conclusion has you becoming the Archmage of the College. While you can get by doing all of the associated missions using your melee skills, it just feels better (to me), story-wise, to use magic.
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Post by vertigomez on Feb 3, 2018 17:50:32 GMT
Nightscrawl are you sure marketing won't go for Dragon Age: The Nug Age: Secrets of the Fade IV?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2018 18:13:10 GMT
b/c I am bored to death of the shuffled Europeland That has to do with regional culture, though. I don't think Orlais would suddenly cease to be Orlais if they were all mages, they'd just be Orlesian mages. The same applies to Ferelden, Rivain, Antiva and everywhere else. I was writing that under the frequently asserted assumption that No Veil = Complete Annihilation of sentient life, thus full cultural collapse and Game Over for Thedas as we know it. As many of us have discussed, there are a lot of ways that the destruction of the Veil could potentially change the in-game world, and I kind of want a do-over now that there's a more diverse group of worldbuilders at Bioware other than whatever David Gaider could scrape out of his campaign notes.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Feb 3, 2018 18:24:09 GMT
Whether or not genocide on a global scale is necessary for it to happen has a pretty big impact on my answer. Definitely gonna take a hard pass if Solas' method is the only way to do it. Plus I don't think the setting should ever be so fundamentally altered. Quoted for truth. That's not an issue to ignore, and if whatever Solas thinks is going to wipe out pretty much everyone and everything can't be averted except by leaving the Veil up then I'm going to have to go with "no." But I'm also not sure the Veil coming down is a good thing in and of itself. It would mean that rather than forming behind the Veil, where they can't hurt anyone, spirits and demons are forming right where physical beings live. Even Solas, who thinks what he's doing is in balance a good thing, acknowledges that that's not safe in his early dialogue. Seriously, one rage demon in a cat can take down templars. If any cat at any time can get possessed, and there might not be anyone even as dangerous as the templars within two miles when it happens...
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Feb 3, 2018 19:07:59 GMT
I expect the Veil to get mess with at some point, preferably destroying some iconic place of franchise that would serve as battleground Yes! Your days are numbered, tiny-bit-of-Val-Royeaux-that-we-were-shown!
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Post by arvaarad on Feb 3, 2018 19:18:14 GMT
Whether or not genocide on a global scale is necessary for it to happen has a pretty big impact on my answer. Definitely gonna take a hard pass if Solas' method is the only way to do it. Plus I don't think the setting should ever be so fundamentally altered. That's not an issue to ignore, and if whatever Solas thinks is going to wipe out pretty much everyone and everything can't be averted except by leaving the Veil up then I'm going to have to go with "no." But I'm also not sure the Veil coming down is a good thing in and of itself. It would mean that rather than forming behind the Veil, where they can't hurt anyone, spirits and demons are forming right where physical beings live. Even Solas, who thinks what he's doing is in balance a good thing, acknowledges that that's not safe in his early dialogue. Seriously, one rage demon in a cat can take down templars. If any cat at any time can get possessed, and there might not be anyone even as dangerous as the templars within two miles when it happens... On the other hand, the spirits we see now could be the most dangerous ones. Due to the Veil, it’s extemely difficult to cross into the waking world. So the only spirits that do cross over are the ones who gorge themselves on their emotion, stuffing their face with more and more and more until they have enough power to cross over. Even if it’s a good spirit, representing a positive emotion, they need to encourage unhealthy amounts of that emotion in order to be powerful enough to cross. Maybe the Veil comes down and reveals all the healthy, well-adjusted spirits that were too weak to contact dreamers.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Feb 3, 2018 19:29:46 GMT
Maybe the Veil comes down and reveals all the healthy, well-adjusted spirits that were too weak to contact dreamers. Which now every common peasant, shady merchant, and sneak thief can torment and abuse with inept Fade magic, intentionally or unintentionally. My theory all along as to the death and destruction foreseen by Solas is not from some sort of natural calamity, but the chaos and madness of base humanity all becoming mages at once and settling old scores. DA is still a dark fantasy. Any notion that tearing down the Veil will have a net positive impact on the world is, at best, wishful thinking. At worst, a total betrayal of the thematic underpinnings of the setting.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Feb 3, 2018 19:32:09 GMT
That's not an issue to ignore, and if whatever Solas thinks is going to wipe out pretty much everyone and everything can't be averted except by leaving the Veil up then I'm going to have to go with "no." But I'm also not sure the Veil coming down is a good thing in and of itself. It would mean that rather than forming behind the Veil, where they can't hurt anyone, spirits and demons are forming right where physical beings live. Even Solas, who thinks what he's doing is in balance a good thing, acknowledges that that's not safe in his early dialogue. Seriously, one rage demon in a cat can take down templars. If any cat at any time can get possessed, and there might not be anyone even as dangerous as the templars within two miles when it happens... On the other hand, the spirits we see now could be the most dangerous ones. Due to the Veil, it’s extemely difficult to cross into the waking world. So the only spirits that do cross over are the ones who gorge themselves on their emotion, stuffing their face with more and more and more until they have enough power to cross over. Even if it’s a good spirit, representing a positive emotion, they need to encourage unhealthy amounts of that emotion in order to be powerful enough to cross. Maybe the Veil comes down and reveals all the healthy, well-adjusted spirits that were too weak to contact dreamers. But not every being that's not strong enough to get across would be healthy and well-adjusted. It would also reveal all the demons too weak to get across. And maybe it would also reveal beings like the Trickster Whim, which is a terrifying murderous monster I've never heard called anything but "spirit," and which we only see because the Warden brought it across the Veil. And how strong does a spirit need to be to contact dreamers? That's not the same challenge as crossing the Veil, because the dreamer already has crossed.
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Post by arvaarad on Feb 3, 2018 19:36:50 GMT
On the other hand, the spirits we see now could be the most dangerous ones. Due to the Veil, it’s extemely difficult to cross into the waking world. So the only spirits that do cross over are the ones who gorge themselves on their emotion, stuffing their face with more and more and more until they have enough power to cross over. Even if it’s a good spirit, representing a positive emotion, they need to encourage unhealthy amounts of that emotion in order to be powerful enough to cross. Maybe the Veil comes down and reveals all the healthy, well-adjusted spirits that were too weak to contact dreamers. But not every being that's not strong enough to get across would be healthy and well-adjusted. It would also reveal all the demons too weak to get across. And maybe it would also reveal beings like the Trickster Whim, which is a terrifying murderous monster I've never heard called anything but "spirit," and which we only see because the Warden brought it across the Veil. And how strong does a spirit need to be to contact dreamers? That's not the same challenge as crossing the Veil, because the dreamer already has crossed. They’d need to be able to speak, at least. Most spirits in the Fade are voiceless wisps.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Feb 3, 2018 19:40:24 GMT
Maybe the Veil comes down and reveals all the healthy, well-adjusted spirits that were too weak to contact dreamers. Which now every common peasant, shady merchant, and sneak thief can torment and abuse with inept Fade magic, intentionally or unintentionally. My theory all along as to the death and destruction foreseen by Solas is not from some sort of natural calamity, but the chaos and madness of base humanity all becoming mages at once and settling old scores. DA is still a dark fantasy. Any notion that tearing down the Veil will have a net positive impact on the world is, at best, wishful thinking. At worst, a total betrayal of the thematic underpinnings of the setting. One fan theory as to why some people have magic and some don't is that all "non-elven" mages, and all "non-elven" people with mages in their families, are all beings with elf blood suppressed by the natural tendency of elf blood to not show. It occurred to me that if that speculation is true, lifting the Veil might reverse that genetic trend and suddenly turn any mage, any non-mage with an elven parent (and anyone related to either) into an elf. Couple that with all elves and people of elven descent who aren't already mages suddenly becoming mages (if that happens too) and things get really messy really fast. The biggest hole in that theory (and I think in yours) would be that Solas says the Dalish will die too, and that I don't remember him qualifying that statement at all. It seems to me that if what I describe was the problem, the Dalish (who are well away from the civilization that is going to go right to hell in either case, and are racially homogeneous enough not to have the racial chaos my theory would result in) would have a slightly better than average (though probably not better than even) chance of living through either scenario.
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Post by tacsear on Feb 3, 2018 19:49:07 GMT
I don't want DA to turn into TES so no
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Post by ellehaym on Feb 3, 2018 20:58:05 GMT
I wonder how the Veil will be destroyed? Will destroying it burn the sky and thus most people on the surface while Solas and his crew wait it out in a safe location inside the Eluvian?
Or does he mean that the chaos of magic returning will cause everyone to panic and further war amongst themselves and will make it easier for a 3rd party (Solas and crew) to kill off the what remains. Much like when the Veil was 1st erected.
I am more concerned about the Forgotten Ones and the Evanuris returning. Solas claims he has plans for them, but I'm not so sure if it'll work
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Post by mechalynx on Feb 4, 2018 0:33:21 GMT
If the Veil must come down, I want it to only do so in places, like maps dedicated to Veiled Thedas. But mostly, no. F*** that mage noise. The Elvhenan fell to its own stupidity and no-one likes Tevinter except those Tevinter bastards.
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Post by Walter Black on Feb 4, 2018 3:09:58 GMT
The only way this could work for an entire game would be for the protagonist to be restricted to elf-only, and we all saw how well the removal of multiple race selection went over in Dragon Age 2 . To have so much content reserved for just elves isn't fair to players who would want to explore those areas as humans, dwarves or qunari. Could you imagine trying to finish Origins if non elf Wardens were immediately shot upon entering the Brecilian Forests, or non dwarves were barred from Orzimmar, GW treaties be damned? Not mention elf players who would rather their characters not be xenophobic racists .
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