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Post by Vall on Mar 13, 2018 2:43:07 GMT
I'd rather they just never did them, if there so called choices do anything its cripple potential story with the actual choices amounting to sweet FA. Warden has a child with morrigan? tuff some dont Warden is prince_regeant or queen? tuff some aint GORDONS ALIIIIVE? sorry wrong place Chargers alive? tuff some killed them The list goes on, the choices in BioWare games amount to nothing but headcannon or fan fiction, im happy some like them an in a sense they also add to my replay value but i'd rather have them cut completely out an a better overall narrative with clear cliffhangers that will be explored either in patches, updates or dlc I think there's a balance to be had. It's all on a scale between static storytelling that allows you to tell tight story but with the tradeoff being that player is just a glorified observer and pure sandbox, where there is little or no dev made story but it's entirely player driven. I'd say Bioware is somewhere around the middle, leaning towards more creator controlled story. Tightness of the story, reactivity, and resources are hard to balance, but for me, Bioware has been able to immerse me into their stories like nobody else (maybe with the exception of DONTNOD) could despite often arguably lackluster graphical and technical side, so in my mind, pros of having choices in the story outweigh the cons most of the time. Admittedly it's not just choices that cause this though, it's them combined with other things like relatable and likeable characters, cutscenes, CC with char gender option, over the shoulder camera, fully voiced everyone...I will admit Bioware spoiled me so now it's hard to go back to unvoiced protagonists and isometric cameras when we have it all with Bioware. It's just a shame nobody seems to really be trying to fill that niche. (Well, there is Spiders...maybe Greedfall will finally be the one to make me want to play it).
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Post by Vall on Mar 13, 2018 2:52:32 GMT
I would imagine they would handle it the same way they do singleplayer content in Destiny or SWTOR. Story content, inevitably, takes place in mission-specific instances where those sorts of choices can be reflected. In SWTOR, a character you spared could come back in a later story instance and impact your character’s story. So I really don’t see why Anthem couldn’t reflect your choice as much as a game like DAO did, where the only real difference imparted by the werewolf choice was what allies you could call on in the end. But what about when you and I both back to that same village later on in the game? If I decided to have everyone killed and you decided to have everyone spared, how does Anthem handle that? What about the 3rd person who has yet to get to that point in the game? You could use system similar to phasing in World of Warcraft. While it doesn't have player driven choices, the enviroment does react to storyline to various extents, ranging from couple of different NPCs in the area to a Cataclysm happening as you play. How this reacts to players depends. If the difference is just a couple of different NPCs, players can see each other and interact with both seeing their own phases. When differences are more drastic (friendly village is suddenly full of hostile werevolves for example, or maybe it was completely flattened), players in different phases can't see each other and if they are in party, the simply have an indicator showing that players are in a different phase. (You could possibly change this so that players are pulled into leaders phase if you want) Oh and this all isn't within instances, this happens out in the open world.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 13, 2018 14:14:32 GMT
I'd rather they just never did them, if there so called choices do anything its cripple potential story with the actual choices amounting to sweet FA. Warden has a child with morrigan? tuff some dont Warden is prince_regeant or queen? tuff some aint GORDONS ALIIIIVE? sorry wrong place Chargers alive? tuff some killed them The list goes on, the choices in BioWare games amount to nothing but headcannon or fan fiction, im happy some like them an in a sense they also add to my replay value but i'd rather have them cut completely out an a better overall narrative with clear cliffhangers that will be explored either in patches, updates or dlc These are better examples of why choices should matter IN THE GAMES THEY TAKE PLACE IN, rather than be left for sequels. Let the effects of choices be more immediate and tangible rather be relegated to an Alistair cameo a game or two later on. The problem is, in a shared universe, it would be difficult to get even that much. How can you show the destruction of Redcliffe when someone else may have saved it?
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Post by simit on Mar 13, 2018 15:09:10 GMT
Yeah maybe the biggest problem isn't choice itself but the actual choices BioWare give
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Post by luketrevelyan on Mar 13, 2018 16:15:59 GMT
BioWare typically has good choices in first games of series. The problem with choices are when you have ongoing series. You either have to have less meaningful choices or not completely honor them. This is one reason I believe quality started declining in BioWare games during the MET/DA era. Previously they mostly moved onto something new after a single game and that allowed huge world-changing choices and outcomes. Once you have to continue in that world, it becomes a constraint on the series over time. MEA I would say is the single most constrained game in their history due to ME3 endings.
KOTOR has an enormous choice that affects who lives in your crew and what ending you get. KOTOR 2 (Obsidian) mostly sidestepped that outcome and made a new game, which was probably the best move in that situation. DAO has a ridiculous number of choices that affect who lives, who rules, what ending you get, etc. DA2/DAI often honor the choices but retcon some. DA2/DAI choices have been less interesting. ME1's biggest choice is probably Virmire. That has a significant impact in that game and also especially ME3. MET does a decent job of honoring choices overall, but there aren't a ton that truly change the galaxy until ME3 ending.
So from Anthem I wouldn't expect anything special from choices because it will most likely be an ongoing thing.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Mar 14, 2018 2:48:43 GMT
It's probably built like Destiny since it's a Destiny clone, so it's an always-online game you log into, but it essentially has a single-player campaign of the typical length but maybe because it's BioWare it'll be more like DAI or MEA with tons of "collect 0/3" quests so like 30 hour campaign or more, that is like single-player but can have people tagging along up to 4 players and then the actual live-service features like Horde Mode and instance/raids on top of that.
As a single-player campaign inside a live-service game it can include and track as many choices in your personalized save that is stored on your system and in your Anthem character account as any BioWare game essentially. Just expect that due to the multiplayer focus BioWare will probably try to make the narrative involve more players where singleplayer is just sort of an exception for those that really don't want to play with others. Both Destiny and The Division could be played from start to finish as a single-player campaign, really. Just really bland single player campaigns because the objectives kinda sucked and some bosses felt broken when there was no additional players to take aggro. You gotta think of your other players as this game's version of companions because for some reason I don't actually expect this one to have companions.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Mar 14, 2018 2:51:47 GMT
I'd rather they just never did them, if there so called choices do anything its cripple potential story with the actual choices amounting to sweet FA. Warden has a child with morrigan? tuff some dont Warden is prince_regeant or queen? tuff some aint GORDONS ALIIIIVE? sorry wrong place Chargers alive? tuff some killed them The list goes on, the choices in BioWare games amount to nothing but headcannon or fan fiction, im happy some like them an in a sense they also add to my replay value but i'd rather have them cut completely out an a better overall narrative with clear cliffhangers that will be explored either in patches, updates or dlc These are better examples of why choices should matter IN THE GAMES THEY TAKE PLACE IN, rather than be left for sequels. Let the effects of choices be more immediate and tangible rather be relegated to an Alistair cameo a game or two later on. The problem is, in a shared universe, it would be difficult to get even that much. How can you show the destruction of Redcliffe when someone else may have saved it? Yeah, it is limited, but no more than in some single player games. ME3 renders a destroyed version of the Citadel the same as it renders the undamaged version that are virtually the same but the narrative impact is different. World of Warcraft did a thing called "phasing" where depending on quest-progress one player would be in another "Phase" of an area that would exclude them from other players in that area on the server only as long as that quest was active and then upon finishing when an island went into the sea, that little area would be "unphased" again and be part of the globally shared world. Phasing was smart as it meant everyone doing that quest would be visible to each other in that area. I doubt BioWare is that smart though. HAHAHAHAHA---HA.
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Post by mictlantecuhtli on Mar 14, 2018 5:23:06 GMT
Yeah, SWTOR is probably the best example, though it's worth noting that the choices are pretty much meaningless and/or nonexistent in the part of the game that is actually shared, and as a result, those shared aspects are a pain in the behind with regards to integration into content that is actually story driven (and vice-versa, somewhat). Even so, I would argue that even in Bioware’s singleplayer games the choices have very limited impact on other story content most of the time. Yep. They also ignore anything that doesn't suit their story.Such as Leliana and Morrigan being dead, Redcliffe being abandoned, Morrigan not having a child, etc. Are you being sarcastic with your Too Human avatar? Because I actually thought it was a fairly decent game, if you don't die you don't have to wait on that absurdly long valkyrie bs.
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Post by Heimdall on Mar 14, 2018 8:47:11 GMT
Even so, I would argue that even in Bioware’s singleplayer games the choices have very limited impact on other story content most of the time. Yep. They also ignore anything that doesn't suit their story.Such as Leliana and Morrigan being dead, Redcliffe being abandoned, Morrigan not having a child, etc. Are you being sarcastic with your Too Human avatar? Because I actually thought it was a fairly decent game, if you don't die you don't have to wait on that absurdly long valkyrie bs. I liked it and thought it had a cool premise, the combat system was very hit or miss though.
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Post by legbamel on Mar 15, 2018 2:03:06 GMT
The problem with high-impact choices in a series is branching. Two big choices for world states means the next game has to account for four possible situations, plus add another (say) two. Now game three has to address each of those possible results and the branches grow exponentially. Every new choice doubles the number of possible world states and if the dev doesn't "respect" those choices and reflect them in your player experience they're lambasted.
I typically find the choices in BioWare games interesting and the resulting little nods to them later satisfying without expecting them to treat every whim of my PC as galaxy-changing. They only have so much time and so many resources, after all.
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Post by Sanunes on Mar 15, 2018 3:02:16 GMT
The problem with high-impact choices in a series is branching. Two big choices for world states means the next game has to account for four possible situations, plus add another (say) two. Now game three has to address each of those possible results and the branches grow exponentially. Every new choice doubles the number of possible world states and if the dev doesn't "respect" those choices and reflect them in your player experience they're lambasted. I typically find the choices in BioWare games interesting and the resulting little nods to them later satisfying without expecting them to treat every whim of my PC as galaxy-changing. They only have so much time and so many resources, after all. Exactly and if people don't like when the smaller choices aren't noticeable or the way they picked them they get upset, I can only imagine what would happen if canonizing choices happened. There is another option as well and its the nullification option where the big choices make a difference in the game you are playing, but by the end of the game it ends will everything nullified. The Witcher 2 did that and so has Tell-Tale games. The problem with the latter is again after a while it really means nothing for you know that it will nullify itself. I personally like the smaller nods that were found in Mass Effect 3 and that is what I would like to see for it acknowledges what they player has done and helps shape the character, but at the same time it doesn't make the game impossible to make. I doubt people would really like a game where it only takes two hours to beat the game because BioWare had to code in so many options based on the prior games.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 15, 2018 17:21:03 GMT
The problem with high-impact choices in a series is branching. Two big choices for world states means the next game has to account for four possible situations, plus add another (say) two. Now game three has to address each of those possible results and the branches grow exponentially. Every new choice doubles the number of possible world states and if the dev doesn't "respect" those choices and reflect them in your player experience they're lambasted. I typically find the choices in BioWare games interesting and the resulting little nods to them later satisfying without expecting them to treat every whim of my PC as galaxy-changing. They only have so much time and so many resources, after all. Which is why the branching should be limited to the game it's made in. Forget the sequels. Canonize an ending, pretend the events of the previous game didn't happen, make every game in a series a parallel timeline if you have to, but leave the baggage. That said, important choices SHOULD have an impact on the story in which it is set. If I make an important decision in THIS game, then it should have an impact on THIS game, even if THAT game pretends it didn't happen. Edit: WHich makes me skeptical about Anthem because, as the title asks, how much can your choices impact a shared world?
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Post by KaiserShep on Mar 15, 2018 17:33:33 GMT
I’d say that in the case of a series, forget the branching altogether. If a game is going to have a world that carries on through more than one title, I think the big plot points that affect the world should be fixed, with the only variability being the fates of individual characters. Individual characters can easily disappear, replace mutually exclusive characters or make brief cameos, like we’ve already gotten before, without having to look inconsistent because there’s just not enough zots to make all those Big Meaningful decisions carry over. If I can at least take some control over the personality of my PC and how s/he interacts with NPC’s, and center it in an engaging narrative, then I’m pretty much sold.
In the Mass Effect trilogy, I think that canning the Council and Collector Base decisions would have served it much better in the end.
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Post by SofaJockey on Mar 15, 2018 17:48:45 GMT
I remember the awesome Justin discussing the complex branching for Dragon Age Inquisition (discussing the Keep's Tapestry).
Alastair was the most tricky one, whether he was a Warden, drunk, dead, married off, or a host of other eventualities.
I would almost guarantee he won't be making a personal appearance in DA4...
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Post by KaiserShep on Mar 15, 2018 17:56:38 GMT
I remember the awesome Justin discussing the complex branching for Dragon Age Inquisition (discussing the Keep's Tapestry). Alastair was the most tricky one, whether he was a Warden, drunk, dead, married off, or a host of other eventualities. I would almost guarantee he won't be making a personal appearance in DA4... The very fact that leaving him a Warden in Origins presents a second opportunity to kill him off in Inquisition kinda cinches it.
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Post by SofaJockey on Mar 15, 2018 18:14:30 GMT
I remember the awesome Justin discussing the complex branching for Dragon Age Inquisition (discussing the Keep's Tapestry). Alastair was the most tricky one, whether he was a Warden, drunk, dead, married off, or a host of other eventualities. I would almost guarantee he won't be making a personal appearance in DA4... The very fact that leaving him a Warden in Origins presents a second opportunity to kill him off in Inquisition kinda cinches it. Ah yes, I'd forgotten that you could feed him to 'Blinky'...
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Post by KaiserShep on Mar 15, 2018 18:53:23 GMT
The very fact that leaving him a Warden in Origins presents a second opportunity to kill him off in Inquisition kinda cinches it. Ah yes, I'd forgotten that you could feed him to 'Blinky'... That so sounds like something Varric would call it.
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Post by goishen on Mar 16, 2018 4:12:25 GMT
SWTOR is prolly the worst example, at least nowadays. It leads both of you (light and dark) down the same dimly lit grey path of not being sure of WTF to do. Guess what BioWare, I can make those decisions in everyday life, I don't need to play your game to do it.
I agree, it did come out strong. But then somebody at BioWare either chickened out or phoned it in while doing blow off'a his hooker's ass for the night. "Yah yah, then just have them I dunno, perform some weak shit.. Yah yah, light and dark. *SNOOOOOOORT!* Yah man, I gotta go."
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Post by correctamundo on Mar 17, 2018 11:47:19 GMT
It's a multiverse.
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Post by Sartoz on Mar 17, 2018 18:02:29 GMT
This was a pretty interesting question from MJ, so I made a thread... In a shared world game, how impactful can choices be?
Depends on what "shared" means. Still, I believe there is no impact other than Clan affiliations, Clan strength, reputation.. that sort of thing. Personal choices won't affect the game world. For example: I doubt a player can start their own Exploration / Freelancer Guild and have others join you.
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Post by Gandalf the Fabulous on Mar 18, 2018 7:54:27 GMT
Depends on the game and what you mean by choice, if you are hoping for the traditional branching narrative style seen in games like the Witcher where certain choices lead to certain world states and storylines to follow then forget about it (unless of course the game allows the player to participate in a totally separate story that has no effect on the shared world) however it is totally possible to have a shared world that can be influenced and changed by those participating in it. Think less about a rigid story written by the developers to keep events moving but rather a freeform story that the players write themselves as they become the heroes and the villains of the story.
The extreme example would be something like Ark where almost everything is under the control of the players, they create their own tribes and their own settlements, they create the economy and their own alliances and conflicts, factions rise and fall every day, villains appear to antagonize the server and heroes rise to fight them only to turn villain once they have overthrown the last villain, it is a story that writes itself however the problem with this is while there are some good servers when left entirely under the player control most servers end up resembling a dumpster fire with one massive tribe with a stupid name sitting on all the valuable resources and charging an iron tax for anyone on the server who doesn't want to get raided by them (only get raided by them anyway the moment they start accruing enough resources to even appear like they could potentially possibly be even a modicum of a threat to them sometime in the near future).
That said there is always the option to scale it back it where the developers have tighter control over what settlements appear in the world but players get to influence the economy setting the supply and demand for certain items and have certain locations and resources on the map that player guilds can fight over, or you could go the traditional MMO route where players are placed in one of 2 factions and players of each faction fight for control over certain areas of the map with areas changing depending on which faction has control and new opportunities opening up for that faction, there is even the possibility for developers to write stories based on the state of the world depending on which faction has control of what.
There are plenty of ways the players can effect a shared world however how many avenues players will have to effect the shared world in Anthem on the other hand I would not expect much, don't expect much beyond the current destiny model, to be honest I am not entirely certain there will be any sort of branching story or choices even in a single player capacity and I can't be certain the game will have missions more complex than go to the spot and shoot the lads then farm the lads for loot. Does Destiny even have an auction house or the ability for players to trade with each other?
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At sunrise there is the sunset.
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger on Mar 18, 2018 8:34:35 GMT
Depends on the game and what you mean by choice, if you are hoping for the traditional branching narrative style seen in games like the Witcher where certain choices lead to certain world states and storylines to follow then forget about it (unless of course the game allows the player to participate in a totally separate story that has no effect on the shared world) however it is totally possible to have a shared world that can be influenced and changed by those participating in it. Think less about a rigid story written by the developers to keep events moving but rather a freeform story that the players write themselves as they become the heroes and the villains of the story. The extreme example would be something like Ark where almost everything is under the control of the players, they create their own tribes and their own settlements, they create the economy and their own alliances and conflicts, factions rise and fall every day, villains appear to antagonize the server and heroes rise to fight them only to turn villain once they have overthrown the last villain, it is a story that writes itself however the problem with this is while there are some good servers when left entirely under the player control most servers end up resembling a dumpster fire with one massive tribe with a stupid name sitting on all the valuable resources and charging an iron tax for anyone on the server who doesn't want to get raided by them (only get raided by them anyway the moment they start accruing enough resources to even appear like they could potentially possibly be even a modicum of a threat to them sometime in the near future). That said there is always the option to scale it back it where the developers have tighter control over what settlements appear in the world but players get to influence the economy setting the supply and demand for certain items and have certain locations and resources on the map that player guilds can fight over, or you could go the traditional MMO route where players are placed in one of 2 factions and players of each faction fight for control over certain areas of the map with areas changing depending on which faction has control and new opportunities opening up for that faction, there is even the possibility for developers to write stories based on the state of the world depending on which faction has control of what. There are plenty of ways the players can effect a shared world however how many avenues players will have to effect the shared world in Anthem on the other hand I would not expect much, don't expect much beyond the current destiny model, to be honest I am not entirely certain there will be any sort of branching story or choices even in a single player capacity and I can't be certain the game will have missions more complex than go to the spot and shoot the lads then farm the lads for loot. Does Destiny even have an auction house or the ability for players to trade with each other?
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Sanunes
N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Just a flip of the coin.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sanunes on Mar 18, 2018 12:03:51 GMT
Depends on the game and what you mean by choice, if you are hoping for the traditional branching narrative style seen in games like the Witcher where certain choices lead to certain world states and storylines to follow then forget about it (unless of course the game allows the player to participate in a totally separate story that has no effect on the shared world) however it is totally possible to have a shared world that can be influenced and changed by those participating in it. Think less about a rigid story written by the developers to keep events moving but rather a freeform story that the players write themselves as they become the heroes and the villains of the story. The extreme example would be something like Ark where almost everything is under the control of the players, they create their own tribes and their own settlements, they create the economy and their own alliances and conflicts, factions rise and fall every day, villains appear to antagonize the server and heroes rise to fight them only to turn villain once they have overthrown the last villain, it is a story that writes itself however the problem with this is while there are some good servers when left entirely under the player control most servers end up resembling a dumpster fire with one massive tribe with a stupid name sitting on all the valuable resources and charging an iron tax for anyone on the server who doesn't want to get raided by them (only get raided by them anyway the moment they start accruing enough resources to even appear like they could potentially possibly be even a modicum of a threat to them sometime in the near future). That said there is always the option to scale it back it where the developers have tighter control over what settlements appear in the world but players get to influence the economy setting the supply and demand for certain items and have certain locations and resources on the map that player guilds can fight over, or you could go the traditional MMO route where players are placed in one of 2 factions and players of each faction fight for control over certain areas of the map with areas changing depending on which faction has control and new opportunities opening up for that faction, there is even the possibility for developers to write stories based on the state of the world depending on which faction has control of what. There are plenty of ways the players can effect a shared world however how many avenues players will have to effect the shared world in Anthem on the other hand I would not expect much, don't expect much beyond the current destiny model, to be honest I am not entirely certain there will be any sort of branching story or choices even in a single player capacity and I can't be certain the game will have missions more complex than go to the spot and shoot the lads then farm the lads for loot. Does Destiny even have an auction house or the ability for players to trade with each other? At least in Destiny 2 there isn't enough loot in the game for an auction house. Not to mention there is no general chat in the game either, which is a symptom of why I am glad I only paid World of Warcraft gold for the game. The game felt dead for unless you are in the same clan there is also no way to talk to one another either combined with extremely small player caps on each zone of I think 20.
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https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.hVm-5wNStlyTEXjhwDoa_wHaEK%26pid%3DApi&f=1&ipt=8f745a5f30b08f8231ddb64664df7375d23cc10878aa50d66fec54e9d570c7e2&ipo=images
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Sartoz on Mar 19, 2018 2:54:25 GMT
Depends on the game and what you mean by choice, if you are hoping for the traditional branching narrative style seen in games like the Witcher where certain choices lead to certain world states and storylines to follow then forget about it (unless of course the game allows the player to participate in a totally separate story that has no effect on the shared world) however it is totally possible to have a shared world that can be influenced and changed by those participating in it. Think less about a rigid story written by the developers to keep events moving but rather a freeform story that the players write themselves as they become the heroes and the villains of the story. Snip
Bio has a deadline of March 2019. Public beta testing in Nov-Dec?? = remaining time is bug fixing = there is not as much time left before the game is "locked". One can say that MEAMP is a shared world with quests/missions. Not much regarding "stories" other than a mission description and goal. It's possible that EA/Bio will throw us a bone and give us a limited SP game slice akin to SWBF2. However, choices and game influence from individual players will become overly complex and I don't see how that will gain $$$ for EA. Still, I believe Bio must concentrate on a win-win. That means satisfying Corp monetization requirements and the gaming community. and that means concentrating on core elements. Somehow I can't see implementing player influence into the game.
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linksocarina
N5
Always teacher, sometimes writer
Teaching Mode Activated
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by linksocarina on Mar 19, 2018 19:37:21 GMT
I would imagine they would handle it the same way they do singleplayer content in Destiny or SWTOR. Story content, inevitably, takes place in mission-specific instances where those sorts of choices can be reflected. In SWTOR, a character you spared could come back in a later story instance and impact your character’s story. So I really don’t see why Anthem couldn’t reflect your choice as much as a game like DAO did, where the only real difference imparted by the werewolf choice was what allies you could call on in the end. But what about when you and I both back to that same village later on in the game? If I decided to have everyone killed and you decided to have everyone spared, how does Anthem handle that? What about the 3rd person who has yet to get to that point in the game? Id presume they would be dead on your end while on Heimdall's end they would be alive. That is kind of what happens with SWTOR and most RPGs out there that offer the "shared experience." Thing is, the choices are only impactful on the individual, not the entire plot. It's the age old difference between plot and narrative again, and like always, we only really control one aspect of it.
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