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Post by warden on Apr 5, 2018 3:38:59 GMT
That's the beauty of the game, it gives you almost completely freedom to do what you please and be whatever you want (in terms of personality) unlike the successors, that at best you can only be a jerk and have very few options
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Post by Catilina on Apr 5, 2018 9:31:43 GMT
That's the beauty of the game, it gives you almost completely freedom to do what you please and be whatever you want (in terms of personality) unlike the successors, that at best you can only be a jerk and have very few options This is not really true. Hawke can support a madwoman's crime willingly. Supporting Meredith is an evil choice, especially if Hawke let her execute the Mages, and kill his/her own sister (to betray Bethany and supporting the Templars, when she's in the Circle, also an evil choice). Supporting Petrice is an evil choice. To killing Javaris is an evil choice. To let the sloth demon to possess Feynriel is an evil choice. To support Janeka is an evil choice. There are many ways to be evil in DA2, even if you can't feel that because this is "just a city". But of course, depend on the viewpoint – and on the intent.
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Post by pavellaning on Apr 5, 2018 23:43:27 GMT
That's the beauty of the game, it gives you almost completely freedom to do what you please and be whatever you want (in terms of personality) unlike the successors, that at best you can only be a jerk and have very few options This is not really true. Hawke can support a madwoman's crime willingly. Supporting Meredith is an evil choice, especially if Hawke let her execute the Mages, and kill his/her own sister (to betray Bethany and supporting the Templars, when she's in the Circle, also an evil choice). Supporting Petrice is an evil choice. To killing Javaris is an evil choice. To let the sloth demon to possess Feynriel is an evil choice. To support Janeka is an evil choice. There are many ways to be evil in DA2, even if you can't feel that because this is "just a city". But of course, depend on the viewpoint – and on the intent. My Hawke is going to do exactly those things. Thank you.
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Post by Catilina on Apr 5, 2018 23:49:48 GMT
This is not really true. Hawke can support a madwoman's crime willingly. Supporting Meredith is an evil choice, especially if Hawke let her execute the Mages, and kill his/her own sister (to betray Bethany and supporting the Templars, when she's in the Circle, also an evil choice). Supporting Petrice is an evil choice. To killing Javaris is an evil choice. To let the sloth demon to possess Feynriel is an evil choice. To support Janeka is an evil choice. There are many ways to be evil in DA2, even if you can't feel that because this is "just a city". But of course, depend on the viewpoint – and on the intent. My Hawke is going to do exactly those things. Thank you. Don't forget to give Isabela to the Arishok and Fenris to Danarius, and turn Anders against the mages!
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Post by oyabun on Apr 8, 2018 12:11:49 GMT
The approval of Leliana was probably for the removal of the curse,not for their death.Same for Wynne,in my game she doesn't give any point in approval if the warden waste time with Gheyna or Cammen,so maybe those weird approval points are just bugs that happens in some games.
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Apr 8, 2018 12:17:45 GMT
That's the beauty of the game, it gives you almost completely freedom to do what you please and be whatever you want (in terms of personality) unlike the successors, that at best you can only be a jerk and have very few options This is not really true. Hawke can support a madwoman's crime willingly. Supporting Meredith is an evil choice, especially if Hawke let her execute the Mages, and kill his/her own sister (to betray Bethany and supporting the Templars, when she's in the Circle, also an evil choice). Supporting Petrice is an evil choice. To killing Javaris is an evil choice. To let the sloth demon to possess Feynriel is an evil choice. To support Janeka is an evil choice. There are many ways to be evil in DA2, even if you can't feel that because this is "just a city". But of course, depend on the viewpoint – and on the intent. In order to define an event or a behaviour as evil,you should first define what evil is,and then try to objectify the meaning(which is a truly hard task).Then after that you should explain why such definition matches the situation being discussed.Supporting Meredith can be done for multiple reasons and some of them may no fall under the definition of evil.
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Post by Catilina on Apr 8, 2018 12:45:18 GMT
This is not really true. Hawke can support a madwoman's crime willingly. Supporting Meredith is an evil choice, especially if Hawke let her execute the Mages, and kill his/her own sister (to betray Bethany and supporting the Templars, when she's in the Circle, also an evil choice). Supporting Petrice is an evil choice. To killing Javaris is an evil choice. To let the sloth demon to possess Feynriel is an evil choice. To support Janeka is an evil choice. There are many ways to be evil in DA2, even if you can't feel that because this is "just a city". But of course, depend on the viewpoint – and on the intent. In order to define an event or a behaviour as evil,you should first define what evil is,and then try to objectify the meaning(which is a truly hard task).Then after that you should explain why such definition matches the situation being discussed.Supporting Meredith can be done for multiple reasons and some of them may no fall under the definition of evil. To support her, inherently evil. Her methods not defendable from any "good" viewpoint. Only I can imagine a fool Hawke, who wants to lick her boots, because thinks, with that method s/he can protect Bethany inside the Circle. Or, –only at the end!– siding with Templars for Carver. This both very selfish, but even understandable. If Bethany inside the Circle, to siding with Meredith at the end, and to betray Bethany, also inherently evil.
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Apr 8, 2018 13:05:07 GMT
To support her, inherently evil. Her methods not defendable from any "good" viewpoint. Only I can imagine a fool Hawke, who wants to lick her boots, because thinks, with that method s/he can protect Bethany inside the Circle. Or, –only at the end!– siding with Templars for Carver. This both very selfish, but even understandable. If Bethany inside the Circle, to siding with Meredith at the end, and to betray Bethany, also inherently evil. Once again,what is the definition of evil?If you can't define the core of your argument,you can't make a discussion about it.If Meredith and Hawke see the mages as corrupted due to the multiple demons in the city why is it evil to destroy them?And why it is not evil to destroy the templars instead?I don't believe in Grey morality either as it is just a term used by uneducated people that doesn't know philosophy,but I don't like when people use the term evil without even knowing what it entails.
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Post by Catilina on Apr 8, 2018 13:42:23 GMT
To support her, inherently evil. Her methods not defendable from any "good" viewpoint. Only I can imagine a fool Hawke, who wants to lick her boots, because thinks, with that method s/he can protect Bethany inside the Circle. Or, –only at the end!– siding with Templars for Carver. This both very selfish, but even understandable. If Bethany inside the Circle, to siding with Meredith at the end, and to betray Bethany, also inherently evil. Once again,what is the definition of evil?If you can't define the core of your argument,you can't make a discussion about it.If Meredith and Hawke see the mages as corrupted due to the multiple demons in the city why is it evil to destroy them?And why it is not evil to destroy the templars instead?I don't believe in Grey morality either as it is just a term used by uneducated people that doesn't know philosophy,but I don't like when people use the term evil without even knowing what it entails. Meredith is a tyrant criminal. To support that can't serve any good. She's the madness herself. This is "evil". Meredith doesn't "only" breaks some "high morality" with her methods, but breaks the even Chantry's law, her own law, she swore to. To support her even with a faithful Andrastian's a nonsense. For some "greater good"? What? She failed in everything: even in her duty. Perhaps, with a common wo/man, to support her and to turn blind eyes to her methods can be simple fear from magic (Fenris, for example, not evil). But with Hawke's background to support that cruelty, is unbelievable with an intentional benevolence. The main question was, that Hawke and the Inquisitor can't be really evil. But they can.
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Post by cloud9 on Apr 15, 2018 5:06:55 GMT
I'm at the end of Nature of the Beast and just saw the option to kill the werewolves once they're human again. Seriously? WTF BioWare, why would we go to all that trouble then kill them? Sometimes the choices in this game baffle me. Really?! How can I do that?!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2018 16:12:38 GMT
I'm at the end of Nature of the Beast and just saw the option to kill the werewolves once they're human again. Seriously? WTF BioWare, why would we go to all that trouble then kill them? Sometimes the choices in this game baffle me. Really?! How can I do that?! Just be a jerk and the dialogue option comes up.
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Post by cloud9 on Apr 18, 2018 0:45:50 GMT
Really?! How can I do that?! Just be a jerk and the dialogue option comes up. Sweet!!!😊😊😊😁😁
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Post by oyabun on Apr 29, 2018 0:09:56 GMT
Once again,what is the definition of evil?If you can't define the core of your argument,you can't make a discussion about it.If Meredith and Hawke see the mages as corrupted due to the multiple demons in the city why is it evil to destroy them?And why it is not evil to destroy the templars instead?I don't believe in Grey morality either as it is just a term used by uneducated people that doesn't know philosophy,but I don't like when people use the term evil without even knowing what it entails. Meredith is a tyrant criminal. To support that can't serve any good. She's the madness herself. This is "evil". Meredith doesn't "only" breaks some "high morality" with her methods, but breaks the even Chantry's law, her own law, she swore to. To support her even with a faithful Andrastian's a nonsense. For some "greater good"? What? She failed in everything: even in her duty. Perhaps, with a common wo/man, to support her and to turn blind eyes to her methods can be simple fear from magic (Fenris, for example, not evil). But with Hawke's background to support that cruelty, is unbelievable with an intentional benevolence. The main question was, that Hawke and the Inquisitor can't be really evil. But they can. Your post is not an answer is just bias. A large number of mages in DA2 resorted to blood magic and summoned demons,Orsino did that himself when he became an abomination,he even supported Quentin.Whether or not Meredith is crazy is irrelevant as she has no influence on Hawke,the champion may decide on his/her own that's best to annul the circle in Kirkwall for the benefit of the majority of the population and Cullen even supports them and this is the only ending where Hawke is seen as an hero rather than being casted away and banned from the city. This of course has nothing to do with the contrived notion that they are Meredith's lackey,since if they were they wouldn't have killed her. If you can't accept the simple fact that non pro mages Hawke aren't necessarly evil,then the problem is just within you.
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Post by Catilina on Apr 29, 2018 0:26:44 GMT
Meredith is a tyrant criminal. To support that can't serve any good. She's the madness herself. This is "evil". Meredith doesn't "only" breaks some "high morality" with her methods, but breaks the even Chantry's law, her own law, she swore to. To support her even with a faithful Andrastian's a nonsense. For some "greater good"? What? She failed in everything: even in her duty. Perhaps, with a common wo/man, to support her and to turn blind eyes to her methods can be simple fear from magic (Fenris, for example, not evil). But with Hawke's background to support that cruelty, is unbelievable with an intentional benevolence.
The main question was, that Hawke and the Inquisitor can't be really evil. But they can. This post doesn't answer in any way the inquiry is just bias. A large number of mages in DA2 resorted to blood magic and summoned demons,Orsino did that himself when he became an abomination,he even supported Quentin.Whether or not Meredith is crazy ,Hawke may decide on his/her own that's best to annul the circle in Kirkwall for the benefit of the majority of the population and Cullen even supports them and this is the only ending where Hawke is seen as an hero rather than being casted away and banned from the city. This of course has nothing to do with the contrived notion that they are Meredith's lackey,since if they were they wouldn't have killed her. Hawke a hero in the Templars eyes, if s/he support them, but who cares about the Templars? Who will betray Hawke after that, and force him into exile. How I love this! To support Meredith brings no one little benefit. At the moment when Hawke chooses a side, the opportunities are: 1. Hawke supports the mages, and have a chance to kill Meredith and the Mages will run away from the city – so: Kirkwall will be free from Meredith and the Mages... 2. Hawke supports a mad criminal tyrant, and kill every mages in the Circle. Hawke at the moment doesn't see, s/he get a chance to kill the madwoman. Only acceptable reason for it: Templar Carver. But this is a little bit selfish, isn't? But still, understandable.
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Mark7
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate
Posts: 117 Likes: 125
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Post by Mark7 on Apr 29, 2018 0:43:28 GMT
Your post is not an answer is just bias. A large number of mages in DA2 resorted to blood magic and summoned demons,Orsino did that himself when he became an abomination,he even supported Quentin.Whether or not Meredith is crazy is irrelevant as she has no influence on Hawke,the champion may decide on his/her own that's best to annul the circle in Kirkwall for the benefit of the majority of the population and Cullen even supports them and this is the only ending where Hawke is seen as an hero rather than being casted away and banned from the city. This of course has nothing to do with the contrived notion that they are Meredith's lackey,since if they were they wouldn't have killed her. If you can't accept the simple fact that non pro mages Hawke aren't necessarly evil,then the problem is just within you. You are arguing with a person that thinks Hawke is evil if they don't help the mages while Morrigan is just "cold" when she outright wanted to kill them all in Origins for no reason. These people are crazy they can't even comprhend how comically self contradictory they are,they define evil based on how much they like or dislike someone rather than what they actually do,that's how their twisted minds works,that's who Catilina is.
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Post by oyabun on Apr 29, 2018 0:59:10 GMT
You are arguing with a person that thinks Hawke is evil if they don't help the mages while Morrigan is just "cold" when she outright wanted to kill them all in Origins for no reason. These people are crazy they can't even comprhend how comically self contradictory they are,they define evil based on how much they like or dislike someone rather than what they actually do,that's how their twisted minds works,that's who Catilina is. It's an usual occurance for many(especially in the old Bioware forum) to judge others based on the affinity of ideals they have with them and therefore set entirely subjective (thus useless)parameters of values based on likness,rather than set honest and reasonsble values of collective well being to discern what truly is good and what isn't.
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Post by Catilina on Apr 29, 2018 1:30:15 GMT
Your post is not an answer is just bias. A large number of mages in DA2 resorted to blood magic and summoned demons,Orsino did that himself when he became an abomination,he even supported Quentin.Whether or not Meredith is crazy is irrelevant as she has no influence on Hawke,the champion may decide on his/her own that's best to annul the circle in Kirkwall for the benefit of the majority of the population and Cullen even supports them and this is the only ending where Hawke is seen as an hero rather than being casted away and banned from the city. This of course has nothing to do with the contrived notion that they are Meredith's lackey,since if they were they wouldn't have killed her. If you can't accept the simple fact that non pro mages Hawke aren't necessarly evil,then the problem is just within you. You are arguing with a person that thinks Hawke is evil if they don't help the mages while Morrigan is just "cold" when she outright wanted to kill them all in Origins for no reason. These people are crazy they can't even comprhend how comically self contradictory they are,they define evil based on how much they like or dislike someone rather than what they actually do,that's how their twisted minds works,that's who Catilina is. Of course, nothing wrong with to support a mad criminal tyrant and an evil system against the freedom. I always spoke about SUPPORT her, willingly. Not just at the end, to side with her for some reasons. To SUPPORT her is evil. You can imagine I don't consider evil even Fenris, who able to support the Templars. Hawke's position is different than Morrigan in DAO and even Fenris' in DA2. And again: the question was: Hawke can be evil or not. The answer is: Hawke can be evil. I even said: if Hawke siding the Templars for Carver, I can't consider Hawke evil – but the decision is "evil" decision.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate
Posts: 117 Likes: 125
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Post by Mark7 on Apr 29, 2018 17:11:59 GMT
Of course, nothing wrong with to support a mad criminal tyrant and an evil system against the freedom. I always spoke about SUPPORT her, willingly. Not just at the end, to side with her for some reasons. To SUPPORT her is evil. You can imagine I don't consider evil even Fenris, who able to support the Templars. Hawke's position is different than Morrigan in DAO and even Fenris' in DA2.And again: the question was: Hawke can be evil or not. The answer is: Hawke can be evil. I even said: if Hawke siding the Templars for Carver, I can't consider Hawke evil – but the decision is "evil" decision.Ah yes,your favourite cop out being: "Oh look they are not in the same position,a noble doing evil is evil,a nobody doing evil is not evil because is a nobody" . A poor excuse that says: "the people I like are not evil" I know that for you is mind blown but siding with the templars is not evil understand that? Especially if Carver is not a factor in the decision because is already dead.
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Post by Catilina on Apr 29, 2018 17:38:51 GMT
Of course, nothing wrong with to support a mad criminal tyrant and an evil system against the freedom. I always spoke about SUPPORT her, willingly. Not just at the end, to side with her for some reasons. To SUPPORT her is evil. You can imagine I don't consider evil even Fenris, who able to support the Templars. Hawke's position is different than Morrigan in DAO and even Fenris' in DA2.And again: the question was: Hawke can be evil or not. The answer is: Hawke can be evil. I even said: if Hawke siding the Templars for Carver, I can't consider Hawke evil – but the decision is "evil" decision.Ah yes,your favourite cop out being: "Oh look they are not in the same position,a noble doing evil is evil,a nobody doing evil is not evil because is a nobody" . A poor excuse that says: "the people I like are not evil" I know that for you is mind blown but siding with the templars is not evil understand that? Especially if Carver is not a factor in the decision because is already dead. If Carver's a Grey Warden or dead, siding with Meredith at least stupid. No makes any sense... (even Carver says, he expected, Hawke will support his/her own people, not betray them), or to support her in her crimes, clearly evil. With Bethany in the Circle, to betray her clearly wrong. You can recognize the difference between the support and a forced wrong choice? And yes. (Almost) Everything about the intention and the background.
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Post by Catilina on Apr 29, 2018 18:27:00 GMT
Hawke can support a madwoman's crime willingly. Supporting Meredith is an evil choice, especially if Hawke let her execute the Mages, and kill his/her own sister (to betray Bethany and supporting the Templars, when she's in the Circle, also an evil choice). Supporting Petrice is an evil choice. To killing Javaris is an evil choice. To let the sloth demon to possess Feynriel is an evil choice. To support Janeka is an evil choice. There are many ways to be evil in DA2, even if you can't feel that because this is "just a city" . But of course, depend on the viewpoint – and on the intent.You could let Keldar go. His dad would continue to protect him while the city justice looks the other way and more elven children would be raped and murdered by Keldar. I prefer to let Fenris do the glowing thing. Italics yes. Red!Hawke handles Keldar... About the intention: I read someone let Keldar alive, because the Magistrate blackmails Hawke with Bethany... It could be an interesting choice, especially because we know, Bethany doesn't agree with to let him alive. So: must decide, what's more important, just let him continue for protecting Bethany against her will, or end his madness, because this is the right thing, and also Bethany agree with it.
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Post by Catilina on Apr 29, 2018 19:40:28 GMT
Red!Hawke handles Keldar... About the intention: I read someone let Keldar alive, because the Magistrate blackmails Hawke with Bethany... It could be an interesting choice, especially because we know, Bethany doesn't agree with to let him alive. So: must decide, what's more important, just let him continue for protecting Bethany against her will, or end his madness, because this is the right thing, and also Bethany agree with it. I didn't know the Magistrate would blackmail Bethany, guessing Hawke needs to talk her with him on that quest. It is interesting though It'd be hard to let him get away with that. I don't know, I never did, but and I don't remember he would blackmail Hawke, probably this is just a headcanon or something. Just an example for some viewpoints and reasons to do wrong stuff – or Hawke can refer to the law and order... what also interesting view from an apostate/'s sibling...
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Post by phoray on Apr 29, 2018 20:27:14 GMT
I'm at the end of Nature of the Beast and just saw the option to kill the werewolves once they're human again. Seriously? WTF BioWare, why would we go to all that trouble then kill them? Sometimes the choices in this game baffle me. For a vengeful elf? Who enjoys to kill humans in their true form, when they thought, already they're free? oh Maker. "yay you're not werewolves any more you're--humans?! ugh, way worse. KILL KILL."
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 29, 2018 20:46:12 GMT
What does DA2 and Anders have to with the werewolves? If you are going to derail the thread with yet another mage v Templar debate, at least keep to events that happen in the same game as the werewolves. Or better yet take it to one of the literally dozens of threads created to discuss that.
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Post by Catilina on Apr 29, 2018 20:54:42 GMT
What does DA2 and Anders have to with the werewolves? If you are going to derail the thread with yet another mage v Templar debate, at least keep to events that happen in the same game as the werewolves. Or better yet take it to one of the literally dozens of threads created to discuss that. Let's write your opinion about the topic!
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hanakoikezawa
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 29, 2018 21:15:17 GMT
What does DA2 and Anders have to with the werewolves? If you are going to derail the thread with yet another mage v Templar debate, at least keep to events that happen in the same game as the werewolves. Or better yet take it to one of the literally dozens of threads created to discuss that. Let's write your opinion about the topic! Okay. I never kill the werewolves after curing them. I've only ever killed the werewolves once period, and that was just to get the achievement.
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