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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Mar 23, 2018 16:41:44 GMT
While I was watching a movie,a certain statement made me thought about this to the point I've decided to make a thread,the statement was:
"I've known good criminals and bad cops, bad priests, honorable thieves-you can be on one side of the law or the other, but if you make a deal with somebody, you keep your word."
The vast majority of DAI companions keep their word even if they hate the protagonist,so if they said they would help they indeed do so, and until then they wont leave(I think there is only Dorian who can do that),but in DAO it seems noone is able to keep their own word,even if they are friends,they tend to abandon the protagonist the moment they don't like one single decision. I wouldn't have made this thread if it was just a matter of few npc,or isolated cases,but in DAO the numbers of characters who display this behaviour is very high.
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Post by copper on Mar 23, 2018 17:08:00 GMT
Well I assume this was a way to give the player the most options in the game. But if we're not considering gameplay mechanics, on average the Origins companions are much younger than those in Inquisition. So part of it may relate to mental maturity. But if a companion disagrees with the pc's decisions or views them as incompetent, I don't see why they would stick around anyway. Leliana and Wynne challenge you because you defile the ashes of their religious figure, Sten challenges you if he thinks you're wasting time, etc. Why should any companion follow someone who goes against their ideals? If I had a boss who I thought was a horrible person to work with, chances are I'd be keeping an eye out for other job openings.
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Mar 23, 2018 17:44:42 GMT
Well I assume this was a way to give the player the most options in the game. But if we're not considering gameplay mechanics, on average the Origins companions are much younger than those in Inquisition. So part of it may relate to mental maturity. But if a companion disagrees with the pc's decisions or views them as incompetent, I don't see why they would stick around anyway. Leliana and Wynne challenge you because you defile the ashes of their religious figure, Sten challenges you if he thinks you're wasting time, etc. Why should any companion follow someone who goes against their ideals? If I had a boss who I thought was a horrible person to work with, chances are I'd be keeping an eye out for other job openings. I do understand the "having more options for gameplay reasons" and the " being young" thing,I think they can be good justifications,the rest however I can't see how any of that can be the protagonist's fault?Is them who have decided to assist a stranger to whom they knew nothing about,but the issue is that them leaving the warden is not necessarly bound to any of those reasons.Like we have Sten who sworn an oath but tries to kill the warden(if you fail at beating him you die) for doing the only thing they could have done at the time,and Alistair and Morrigan leaving without the warden doing anything evil either .The majority of these companions(beside Wynne) did terrible things in their past,so i can't really understand where their moral judgments comes from.
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Post by oyabun on Mar 23, 2018 18:10:23 GMT
I do understand the "having more options for gameplay reasons" and the " being young" thing Depending on the companion,It's not difficult to rationalize why they may have decided to leave or attack the player regardless of what they said when they joined (I still think that's a form of betrayal however) I disagree about it being due to them being younger compared to the DAI folk,because some of them maintained this attitude also when they showed up in the sequels.
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Post by heliosdisciple on Mar 27, 2018 2:04:20 GMT
What oaths? I don't recall anybody making an oath except Zevran.
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Post by oyabun on Mar 27, 2018 3:05:59 GMT
What oaths? I don't recall anybody making an oath except Zevran. Making or not explicitly making oaths is irrelevant when dealing with matters of trustworthiness and reliability between individuas as it is unreasonable to expect from everyone an oath in order to talk about unfair behaviours. Beside that there are several different characters there who made an explicit oath beside Zevran,we have Sten,there is Alistair and there are others characters like Morrigan which I classify in a different situation due to there being a deception involved which doesn't make the situation any better since I remember her offering help to fight the blight if the Warden promised to search and give her mother's Grimoire.Now that wasn't an explicit oath but still she doesn't keep her word under certain circumstances.
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Post by Iddy on Apr 3, 2018 12:55:43 GMT
DAO companions aren't your subordinates, so they don't owe you anything.
Inquisition is different, because the Inquisitor really is their boss and leaving would be like breaking a contract. Well, at least without a good reason.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2018 10:34:05 GMT
It's a big plot hole for me, there's a blight for goodness sake. A BLIGHT. You get how important that is Oghren? How we'll all die if we don't do something about it? Well perhaps you stop having a tantrum and just suck it up huh? It's ridiculous, I much prefer it when they're committed to staying no matter what. Then they can just hate you if you've got disapproval points from them and you can have some bitchy dialogue. Thankfully BioWare seem to have stopped doing this now, tho I'd happily have had the option to throw Liam out the airlock.
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Post by Iddy on Apr 4, 2018 10:58:39 GMT
It's a big plot hole for me, there's a blight for goodness sake. A BLIGHT. You get how important that is Oghren? How we'll all die if we don't do something about it? Well perhaps you stop having a tantrum and just suck it up huh? It's ridiculous, I much prefer it when they're committed to staying no matter what. Then they can just hate you if you've got disapproval points from them and you can have some bitchy dialogue. Thankfully BioWare seem to have stopped doing this now, tho I'd happily have had the option to throw Liam out the airlock. Funny how they chose to do it in DA2, since there was no impeding doom coming.
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Post by heliosdisciple on Apr 4, 2018 12:33:27 GMT
People are awfully tyrannical about "friendship". If you took an axe to the Ark of the Covenant, I'd bust your head even if we were friends.
Hell, especially since we were friends.
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Apr 4, 2018 20:35:27 GMT
DAO companions aren't your subordinates, so they don't owe you anything. Inquisition is different, because the Inquisitor really is their boss and leaving would be like breaking a contract. Well, at least without a good reason. I've never stated there being such relationship one of "boss-subordinates", that's not true for the Inquisiton as well since the people who works for the Inquiiston are not bound by any contract to do so(in fact you have Dorian who leaves if you really trated him poorly for the whole game).I've stated that they are unable to keep their word,(tough I disagree about the Warden not being the leader of the group as they clearly are).Not being able to keep their word,especially when favors were given to them,that makes them disloyal.
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Post by Mark7 on Apr 4, 2018 21:49:38 GMT
Some companions attempt to kill the warden or try to diverge their mission,that goes beyond just not being word keeper,that's becoming enemies. The real issue is that some of them enjoys plot protection, and the fact that the characters more or less rubs it in your face without any pretense of protection in the cutscenes is what is annoying.
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Post by Iddy on Apr 5, 2018 11:12:59 GMT
DAO companions aren't your subordinates, so they don't owe you anything. Inquisition is different, because the Inquisitor really is their boss and leaving would be like breaking a contract. Well, at least without a good reason. I've never stated there being such relationship one of "boss-subordinates", that's not true for the Inquisiton as well since the people who works for the Inquiiston are not bound by any contract to do so(in fact you have Dorian who leaves if you really trated him poorly for the whole game).I've stated that they are unable to keep their word,(tough I disagree about the Warden not being the leader of the group as they clearly are).Not being able to keep their word,especially when favors were given to them,that makes them disloyal. The Inquisitor is the leader of the Inquisition. If you're a member of the Inquisition and not the leader, what does that make you? Exactly. Yes, a promise is a promise. But I'm not sure if it is something that should be taken so seriously that you'll keep it even if the person you're helping destroys something dear to you (killing the Circle mages/desecrating the ashes). I would only condemn companions who leave simply due to low approval, because not liking you isn't a good enough reason.
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Apr 5, 2018 11:52:01 GMT
I've never stated there being such relationship one of "boss-subordinates", that's not true for the Inquisiton as well since the people who works for the Inquiiston are not bound by any contract to do so(in fact you have Dorian who leaves if you really trated him poorly for the whole game).I've stated that they are unable to keep their word,(tough I disagree about the Warden not being the leader of the group as they clearly are).Not being able to keep their word,especially when favors were given to them,that makes them disloyal. The Inquisitor is the leader of the Inquisition. If you're a member of the Inquisition and not the leader, what does that make you? Exactly. Yes, a promise is a promise. But I'm not sure if it is something that should be taken so seriously that you'll keep it even if the person you're helping destroys something dear to you (killing the Circle mages/desecrating the ashes). I would only condemn companions who leave simply due to low approval, because not liking you isn't a good enough reason. I was not refferring to the low approval scenarios,I was referring to the npc that leaves or wants to kill the warden based on singular decisions that are no where near to be defined as evil. You go into a mountain to complete a quest,and all of a sudden Sten wants to kill you. (person that owes you his life) You have Zevran at neutral approval and all of a sudden he wants to kill you. (person that owes you his life) You have Alisitair at high approval and he doesn't think twice before to abandon you. (Person that may owes you his whole family's life) Morrigan more or less does the same as Alistair and even if she is not treaty bound,in my case I didn't gave her the Grimoire for free,but she doesn't care to keep her word. (person that may owes you her life) The people that works at the Inquisition are more like workers who takes order from the Inquisitor,but that doesn't mean they can't leave for whatever reason(if for example one of them find a better job somewhere else).
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Post by Iddy on Apr 5, 2018 11:54:09 GMT
The Inquisitor is the leader of the Inquisition. If you're a member of the Inquisition and not the leader, what does that make you? Exactly. Yes, a promise is a promise. But I'm not sure if it is something that should be taken so seriously that you'll keep it even if the person you're helping destroys something dear to you (killing the Circle mages/desecrating the ashes). I would only condemn companions who leave simply due to low approval, because not liking you isn't a good enough reason. I was not refferring to the low approval scenarios,I was referring to the npc that leaves or wants to kill the warden based on singular decisions that are no where near to be defined as evil. You go into a mountain to complete a quest,and all of a sudden Sten wants to kill you. (person that owes you his life) You have Zevran at neutral approval and all of a sudden he wants to kill you. (person that owes you his life) You have Alisitair at high approval and he doesn't think twice to abandon you. Morrigan more or less does the same as Alistair and even if she is not treaty bound,in my case I didn't gave her the Grimoire for free,but she doesn't care to keep her word. (person that may owes you her life) The people that works at the Inquisition are more like workers who takes order from the Inquisitor,but that doesn't mean they can't leave for whatever reason(if for example one of them find a better job somewhere else). Sten doesn't want to kill you. He wants to test your strength. But the others were rather petty, yes.
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Apr 5, 2018 14:38:21 GMT
Sten doesn't want to kill you. He wants to test your strength. but if you fail the test for what I remember he kills you,only in a cut content of the game he doesn't.
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Post by Prince on Apr 6, 2018 14:21:39 GMT
Some of the DAO companions(not all of them) were just too hot headed to be reliable,their all of a sudden "I'm gonna leave because you don't want to do what I want you to do depsite there is a blight" was so unfanthomably immature, considering that either they were just deceving the warden or the warden never promised them anything to begin with.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2018 19:57:09 GMT
I think it's largely a throwback to earlier morality systems - think Baldur's Gate, and the older 3x3 moral alignment systems (lawful, neutral, chaotic x good, neutral, evil). Followers would not join/stay with the PC unless they had some character similarities. We see some of that in other games from other studios, too. It's a big plot hole for me, there's a blight for goodness sake. A BLIGHT. You get how important that is Oghren? How we'll all die if we don't do something about it? Well perhaps you stop having a tantrum and just suck it up huh? The dwarves have a legitimate point along the lines of "why should we care if the darkspawn are on the surface? We're constantly under darkspawn threat." Of course, they also have a unique relationship with the GW as a result. You go into a mountain to complete a quest,and all of a sudden Sten wants to kill you. (person that owes you his life) As has been mentioned, Sten wanted to test the PC. He has no real reason to care about the blight or Ferelden - he's just there for recon and is not going to follow someone who he sees as a weak/indecisive/foolish leader. Zevran's initial job was to kill you. His primary loyalty (and relationships) are with the Crows; if you've done nothing to earn his friendship/loyalty, that he would eventually betray you should not come as a surprise. Alistair seems to have this sort of romanticized, heroic (for lack of better terminology) view of the wardens, and simply can't bear the thought of someone who'd aligned themselves against the wardens joining their ranks. The wardens were never terribly picky - Duncan would recruit a cutpurse, apostate, pretty much all hands on deck during a blight. I admit I was surprised to see his reaction to any thought of recruiting Loghain - but Loghain had taken a series of steps that was an ultimate betrayal of his homeland. Yeah, Morrigan also had an ulterior motive/purpose for traveling with the warden. She joined the warden not by her own volition, but at her mother's urging. Ultimately, though, just because one is ready, willing, and able to help fight the blight doesn't necessarily translate to following the PC. Any of them could have found other ways to fight the blight, and joined the armies at the end. I think they did a pretty good job of giving each of them authentic personal reasons and storylines. I've always felt that BioWare excels at writing characters. All that said, I'd agree that some of the mechanics were... not the greatest. It's difficult (perhaps impossible) to get the approvals where you might want them via conversations and decisions - the gift system is a significant part of approval/loyalty building, and that aspect is pretty lame imho.
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Post by skrillex on Apr 19, 2018 15:47:34 GMT
When the npc leave the party,they don't join other forces who are fighting the blight,they literally abandon the country.To me the most unpredictable one was Alistair as I didn't expected he would completely abandon his duty given how much devoted he seemed to be towards the Wardens(I guess it was just a self-righteous masquerade to kill Loghain).The rest are quite predictable,Leliana and Wynne I knew they were bound with the Andrastian religion that's why I didn't corrupted the ashes,because losing them both for Reaver powers was not worthy it,plus that would have killed my reputation(to be fair reavers power aren't even that impressive in the first DA).Morrigan was the most predictable,because she disapproves of everything you do in the game, unless what you do benefits her personal needs or beliefs (even if it doesn't help you in your goal like fighting her mother). She treats everyone in the party, including you (when you don't fulfill her wishes ), like dirt and she doesn't give a damn about anyone other than herself,so of course it was easy to predict she had an ulterior motive,all the companions predicted it,afterall she isn't even as half Intelligent as she or her fanbase think her to be.
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Post by Cantina on Apr 19, 2018 23:29:53 GMT
While I was watching a movie,a certain statement made me thought about this to the point I've decided to make a thread,the statement was: "I've known good criminals and bad cops, bad priests, honorable thieves-you can be on one side of the law or the other, but if you make a deal with somebody, you keep your word." The vast majority of DAI companions keep their word even if they hate the protagonist,so if they said they would help they indeed do so, and until then they wont leave(I think there is only Dorian who can do that),but in DAO it seems noone is able to keep their own word,even if they are friends,they tend to abandon the protagonist the moment they don't like one single decision. I wouldn't have made this thread if it was just a matter of few npc,or isolated cases,but in DAO the numbers of characters who display this behaviour is very high. There are very few situations where companions immediately turn on you. But most of the time you -the player- have to "work" at pissing them off. And once you piss them off, all it takes is one more shove and they are done. Sometimes they are willing to give you a second chance. For example: Wynne is protecting the children and The Circle. So, is Wynne suppose to go along with your plan to destroy her home and the children, just because there is a Blight? People DO keep their word in DAO, it just depends if you are willing to uphold it. Companions in DAI will leave if your affinity drops low enough - Sera, Blackwall, Cole and Dorian. Iron Bull stays because he is being paid to stay -he is a mercenary. While friendship is a nice bonus its not something Bull is expecting. Vivienne is, well, there for her own selfish reasons. She is using you and the Inquisition for her own means, so no matter how shitty you treat Vivienne, she simply will not care. Cassandra, started the Inquisition and has a need to remain to see justice done. You may not get along with her, but to Cassandra succeeding is more important. She of course is still the Right Hand of the Divine. Varric, stays because of guilt. If you piss him off, Varric will not leave. He is a dwarf and dwarves are stubborn. Same can be said in DAO. Alistair stays because he is a Grey Warden and must stay around til the end no matter what your character's reltionship is with him. Your dog stays because your an endless source of Snausages. Morrigan stays because she wants something from you. Companions are the equivalent of people in real life. They are like onions, they have layers. Some people can tolerate certain things better then others. I for one am all for animal rights. Thus, if I decided to join you to help with some crisis and then down the road you start kicking puppies around, I am going to be pissed and will all likely hood leave you. You can treat the companions like tools or like people. They join out of courtesy, out of a need to help you complete your obligation. But along the way you choose to strip every reason of why they want to help you, the reasons for wanting to aid you and the cause are gone. In a sense they have become a deflated balloon. You deflated them. They do not want the world to end, but they cannot in good conscience stay with someone who has no sense of morality. In a way they see you as the same monster as whatever plight they are fighting against. Would you aid the enemy even if they are trying to save the world? If someone does choose to follow you despite your piss poor treatment of them, its either because they simply do not care what you think of them OR their reason for being there is stronger then you expected. But more times then most there are those who simply refuse to stand-by and watch you become what they swore to stand-up too.
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Apr 20, 2018 10:52:14 GMT
While I was watching a movie,a certain statement made me thought about this to the point I've decided to make a thread,the statement was: "I've known good criminals and bad cops, bad priests, honorable thieves-you can be on one side of the law or the other, but if you make a deal with somebody, you keep your word." The vast majority of DAI companions keep their word even if they hate the protagonist,so if they said they would help they indeed do so, and until then they wont leave(I think there is only Dorian who can do that),but in DAO it seems noone is able to keep their own word,even if they are friends,they tend to abandon the protagonist the moment they don't like one single decision. I wouldn't have made this thread if it was just a matter of few npc,or isolated cases,but in DAO the numbers of characters who display this behaviour is very high. There are very few situations where companions immediately turn on you. But most of the time you -the player- have to "work" at pissing them off. And once you piss them off, all it takes is one more shove and they are done. Sometimes they are willing to give you a second chance. I wasn't talking about the situations where the player has to lower their approval to the point of being considered as insufferable,but about the instances where they leave or turn against the warden out of their own misplaced belief(See Alistair,Morrigan,Sten,Zevran),some of them even if they are a +100. Wynne in the circle of Magi wasn't a companion yet so she isn't even part of the party at that point,therefore the example you provided there is not fitting for the topic as she wasn't a companion yet.
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Vive la révolution mages!
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Post by Cantina on Apr 20, 2018 11:14:24 GMT
There are very few situations where companions immediately turn on you. But most of the time you -the player- have to "work" at pissing them off. And once you piss them off, all it takes is one more shove and they are done. Sometimes they are willing to give you a second chance. I wasn't talking about the situations where the player has to lower their approval to the point of being considered as insufferable,but about the instances where they leave or turn against the warden out of their own misplaced belief(See Alistair,Morrigan,Sten,Zevran),some of them even if they are a +100 on the approval Wynne in the circle of Magi wasn't a companion yet so she isn't even part of the party at that point,therefore the example you provided there is not fitting and I don't even remember to have mentioned her. I think you are missing my point. First and foremost none of the companions got on bend and knee and swore fealty to you character in some long drawn out speech. They asked to join you. You accepted. But that does not mean they are some sort of blow-up doll that you can do whatever you wish to them and know they will remain loyal. You know Lilly is religious. So you are expecting what? For her not to have an aggressive response towards your character destroying the ashes? Hey! The Maker told her to help your character stop The Blight, but its A-OK to destroy his bride's ashes. Just because Lilly is my friend does not mean that friendship cannot be broken. Its not about if you did or did not mention Wynne. That example was to showcase potential or current companions do have layers. The reason why DAO is the way it is, is because its a game that does not hold your damn hand. It does a damn good job at showcasing cause and effect, hell even DA2 did a good job at this too. DAI on the other gave the illusion of it. So, your complaining about companions who have cause and effect against another game which it barley takes place. Sounds to me you want the companions to be nothing more then" Yes men."
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Post by Catilina on Apr 20, 2018 11:27:00 GMT
I wasn't talking about the situations where the player has to lower their approval to the point of being considered as insufferable,but about the instances where they leave or turn against the warden out of their own misplaced belief(See Alistair,Morrigan,Sten,Zevran),some of them even if they are a +100 on the approval Wynne in the circle of Magi wasn't a companion yet so she isn't even part of the party at that point,therefore the example you provided there is not fitting and I don't even remember to have mentioned her. I think you are missing my point. First and foremost none of the companions got on bend and knee and swore fealty to you character in some long drawn out speech. They asked to join you. You accepted. But that does not mean they are some sort of blow-up doll that you can do whatever you wish to them and know they will remain loyal. You know Lilly is religious. So you are expecting what? For her not to have an aggressive response towards your character destroying the ashes? Hey! The Maker told her to help your character stop The Blight, but its A-OK to destroy his bride's ashes. Just because Lilly is my friend does not mean that friendship cannot be broken. Its not about if you did or did not mention Wynne. That example was to showcase potential or current companions do have layers. The reason why DAO is the way it is, is because its a game that does not hold your damn hand. It does a damn good job at showcasing cause and effect, hell even DA2 did a good job at this too. DAI on the other gave the illusion of it. So, your complaining about companions who have cause and effect against another game which it barley takes place. Sounds to me you want the companions to be nothing more then" Yes men." People want to see the companions as slaves / stupid nodding flesh-puppets (or spirit-puppets, stone-puppets).
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Apr 20, 2018 11:43:21 GMT
I wasn't talking about the situations where the player has to lower their approval to the point of being considered as insufferable,but about the instances where they leave or turn against the warden out of their own misplaced belief(See Alistair,Morrigan,Sten,Zevran),some of them even if they are a +100 on the approval Wynne in the circle of Magi wasn't a companion yet so she isn't even part of the party at that point,therefore the example you provided there is not fitting and I don't even remember to have mentioned her. I think you are missing my point. First and foremost none of the companions got on bend and knee and swore fealty to you character in some long drawn out speech. They asked to join you. You accepted. But that does not mean they are some sort of blow-up doll that you can do whatever you wish to them and know they will remain loyal. You know Lilly is religious. So you are expecting what? For her not to have an aggressive response towards your character destroying the ashes? Hey! The Maker told her to help your character stop The Blight, but its A-OK to destroy his bride's ashes. Just because Lilly is my friend does not mean that friendship cannot be broken. Its not about if you did or did not mention Wynne. That example was to showcase potential or current companions do have layers. The reason why DAO is the way it is, is because its a game that does not hold your damn hand. It does a damn good job at showcasing cause and effect, hell even DA2 did a good job at this too. DAI on the other gave the illusion of it. So, your complaining about companions who have cause and effect against another game which it barley takes place. Sounds to me you want the companions to be nothing more then" Yes men." Lol,I don't really understand how it is possible for people to be unable to comprehend even though I repeated the same things 4 times by now. Leliana's faith wasn't a secret as she displayed it for the whole game,therfore destroying the ashes had a very predictable outcome and in fact I haven't even mntioned her in my list,yet you continue to talk about her and Wynne,what's your issue? Alistair IS THE PROBLEM Morrigan IS THE PROBLEM Sten IS THE PROBLEM Zevran IS THE PROBEM Now that I've wrote their names clearly please keep mentioning Leliana and Wynne. People want to see the companions as slaves / stupid nodding flesh-puppets (or spirit-puppets, stone-puppets). I was sure that you wouldn't have understood as usual,never once I found you able to grasp anything beyond making very dangerous and lazy generalizations
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Post by Catilina on Apr 20, 2018 12:22:58 GMT
doflamingodonquijote And you expect some high morality or absolute obedience from the characters. (But ofc, Allistair's ragequit quite disappointing, while can be understandable he doesn't want to work with Loghain.)
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