Cantina
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Post by Cantina on Apr 20, 2018 20:16:05 GMT
I think you are missing my point. First and foremost none of the companions got on bend and knee and swore fealty to you character in some long drawn out speech. They asked to join you. You accepted. But that does not mean they are some sort of blow-up doll that you can do whatever you wish to them and know they will remain loyal. You know Lilly is religious. So you are expecting what? For her not to have an aggressive response towards your character destroying the ashes? Hey! The Maker told her to help your character stop The Blight, but its A-OK to destroy his bride's ashes. Just because Lilly is my friend does not mean that friendship cannot be broken. Its not about if you did or did not mention Wynne. That example was to showcase potential or current companions do have layers. The reason why DAO is the way it is, is because its a game that does not hold your damn hand. It does a damn good job at showcasing cause and effect, hell even DA2 did a good job at this too. DAI on the other gave the illusion of it. So, your complaining about companions who have cause and effect against another game which it barley takes place. Sounds to me you want the companions to be nothing more then" Yes men." Lol,I don't really understand how it is possible for people to be unable to comprehend even though I repeated the same things 4 times by now. Leliana's faith wasn't a secret as she displayed it for the whole game,therfore destroying the ashes had a very predictable outcome and in fact I haven't even mntioned her in my list,yet you continue to talk about her and Wynne,what's your issue?
Alistair IS THE PROBLEM
Morrigan IS THE PROBLEM
Sten IS THE PROBLEM
Zevran IS THE PROBEM
Now that I've wrote their names clearly please keep mentioning Leliana and Wynne. I think what you are failing to see is I have used Lilly and Wynne as examples to make a point - or try to at least. Clearly, you are not seeing it. Furthermore, you want people to see these companions as the problem. How are people suppose to see whatever issue it is you are trying to convey when no context was giving? You should not dismiss disagreeing replies simply because people are trying to ascertain what the hell you are complaining about. |
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Apr 20, 2018 23:46:00 GMT
Lol,I don't really understand how it is possible for people to be unable to comprehend even though I repeated the same things 4 times by now. Leliana's faith wasn't a secret as she displayed it for the whole game,therfore destroying the ashes had a very predictable outcome and in fact I haven't even mntioned her in my list,yet you continue to talk about her and Wynne,what's your issue?
Alistair IS THE PROBLEM
Morrigan IS THE PROBLEM
Sten IS THE PROBLEM
Zevran IS THE PROBEM
Now that I've wrote their names clearly please keep mentioning Leliana and Wynne. I think what you are failing to see is I have used Lilly and Wynne as examples to make a point - or try to at least. Clearly, you are not seeing it. Furthermore, you want people to see these companions as the problem. How are people suppose to see whatever issue it is you are trying to convey when no context was giving? You should not dismiss disagreeing replies simply because people are trying to ascertain what the hell you are complaining about. At this point all I can say is that is obvious you didn't bothered to read the thread even if is just 1 page long,given the fact that context was given by me in the others replies I had with the other posters and Qun00 If you haven't read any of that is not my fault. |
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Cantina
N3
Vive la révolution mages!
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
Posts: 532 Likes: 952
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Vive la révolution mages!
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Post by Cantina on Apr 20, 2018 23:58:35 GMT
I think what you are failing to see is I have used Lilly and Wynne as examples to make a point - or try to at least. Clearly, you are not seeing it. Furthermore, you want people to see these companions as the problem. How are people suppose to see whatever issue it is you are trying to convey when no context was giving? You should not dismiss disagreeing replies simply because people are trying to ascertain what the hell you are complaining about. At this point all I can say is that is obvious you didn't bothered to read the thread even if is just 1 page long,given the fact that context was given by me in the others replies I had with the other posters and Qun00 If you haven't read any of that is not my fault. Um. You can be quite dismissive of the obvious, One: I did read all the replies within this topic. Two: If you are refer to some place else this topic took place, then perhaps the fault likes with you not adding a link. And three: if my question had been answered, I would not have asked it in the first place. You started this thread and you should have specified your reasons. Those reasons were not given even though you claim they were. Perhaps the delusion you wish to fault me on is actually of your own making. |
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Apr 21, 2018 0:13:06 GMT
At this point all I can say is that is obvious you didn't bothered to read the thread even if is just 1 page long,given the fact that context was given by me in the others replies I had with the other posters and Qun00 If you haven't read any of that is not my fault. Um. You can be quite dismissive of the obvious, One: I did read all the replies within this topic. Two: If you are refer to some place else this topic took place, then perhaps the fault likes with you not adding a link. And three: if my question had been answered, I would not have asked it in the first place. You started this thread and you should have specified your reasons. Those reasons were not given even though you claim they were. Perhaps the delusion you wish to fault me on is actually of your own making. Yes they were right on my 4th reply |
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Post by Mark7 on Apr 21, 2018 0:50:06 GMT
doflamingodonquijote And you expect some high morality or absolute obedience from the characters. (But ofc, Allistair's ragequit quite disappointing, while can be understandable he doesn't want to work with Loghain.) Actually,Alistair could have joined a separated group if he just had no desire to work with Loghain,afterall Riordan never joins the party but he still fight the blight.The truth is that he wanted to kill Loghain not just to avoid working with him,therefore I reflected back his wish upon himself,so the death sentence for betrayal was placed on him,an what's ironic is that unlike Loghain who delivers some very honorable speech before his death,Alistair says that he hopes for the blight to destroy everyone before the guards take him away. Anyway I never had any high expectations about any of the NPC as I never trusted any of them,but I do hate the companions with plot armor,as they can get away with anything they do and then shows up in the sequels and the only reason why I don't hate Alistair is because he doesn't have plot armor. |
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Cantina
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Post by Cantina on Apr 21, 2018 1:37:46 GMT
Um. You can be quite dismissive of the obvious, One: I did read all the replies within this topic. Two: If you are refer to some place else this topic took place, then perhaps the fault likes with you not adding a link. And three: if my question had been answered, I would not have asked it in the first place. You started this thread and you should have specified your reasons. Those reasons were not given even though you claim they were. Perhaps the delusion you wish to fault me on is actually of your own making. Yes they were right on my 4th reply Ugh! I have read all the replies – including your so-called reasons. Your reasons are not reasons at all. What they are is answers to your so-called “issue”. Which I am trying to clarify. Friendship is not some sort of pact that can never be broken. In DAO, the companions were written (as I said before) with layers, making them as close as to being realistic as possible. And you know the number one complaint from fans to big wig game reviewers about DAI? The companions. The reason? The companions in DAI do not have as much depth as the companions from the previous two games. So, what I am trying to point out is: while there are players who were disappointed in the depth of the companions in DAI, you however prefer them to be (as I said) “yes men.” You want to be able to drag a hollow character such as Alistair around, smiling and nodding while fighting side-by-side next to the man who ruined his life and tried to get him kill. Or how about Zev. Yep. You two maybe neutral towards one another, but Zev should over-look the faction he has known far longer then your character and his friends and the money because you are so much more important. You do realize that DAI was going to have the whole, “companions leave no matter your affinity/relationship, depending on your choices,” option, but it was cut for whatever stupid reasons. Funny, it was cut considering as I said earlier it is a complaint among fans. Well expect for you and a few others who prefer automatons for companions. Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to go slap around my friend's mom and know my friend will be OK with it. |
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Post by Mark7 on Apr 21, 2018 1:53:37 GMT
Yes they were right on my 4th reply Ugh! So, what I am trying to point out is: while there are players who were disappointed in the depth of the companions in DAI, you however prefer them to be (as I said) “yes men.” You want to be able to drag a hollow character such as Alistair around, smiling and nodding while fighting side-by-side next to the man who ruined his life and tried to get him kill. Or how about Zev. Yep. You two maybe neutral towards one another, but Zev should o Funny, it was cut considering as I said earlier it is a complaint among fans. Well expect for you and a few others who prefer automatons for companions. It's funny, because the DAI NPC clearly are more adults than the majority of the DAO crew,which were mostly teens whom belief could be easly manipulated by the protagonist.They had very simple views of the world and none of them even came close to the complexity of speech of NPC like Solas.Being traitors doesn't equate at being more deep or complex,Alistair doesn't gain in complexity just because he quit rage,or Zevran just because he thinks Talisen is better than the Warden,or Sten just because he lost a sword and Morrigan because wants to save things that she doesn't even understand. Those things make them seem exactly the opposite of being deep characters. |
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Cantina
N3
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Post by Cantina on Apr 21, 2018 2:12:58 GMT
Ugh! So, what I am trying to point out is: while there are players who were disappointed in the depth of the companions in DAI, you however prefer them to be (as I said) “yes men.” You want to be able to drag a hollow character such as Alistair around, smiling and nodding while fighting side-by-side next to the man who ruined his life and tried to get him kill. Or how about Zev. Yep. You two maybe neutral towards one another, but Zev should o Funny, it was cut considering as I said earlier it is a complaint among fans. Well expect for you and a few others who prefer automatons for companions. It's funny, because the DAI NPC clearly are more adults than the majority of the DAO crew,which were mostly teens whom belief could be easly manipulated by the protagonist.They had very simple views of the world and none of them even came close to the complexity of speech of NPC like Solas.Being traitors doesn't equate at being more deep or complex. Dunno where you hale from, but here in the states 18 means your an adult. Furthermore, even if these companions were teens, that is very stereotypical of saying that if your a teen, you have the maturity of a scone. I've met many a teen who acted better as an adult then a real adult. Are the DAO or even DA2 companions perfect? No. But they do have enough complexity to make them interesting as characters. Furthermore, I have no freaking clue where you got the whole "traitor complex crap" from. But whatever. You do realize that Solas has simple views on the world....people bad...fade good. But I suppose him being all complex and deep like a soap opera character over-rides that view point. Anyways...you are trying to make the argument that Vivienne or Sera are more adult then say, Aveline, Lilly, Alistair or even Wynne etc. Excuse me while I die with laughter. LMAO! |
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Post by Mark7 on Apr 21, 2018 2:22:30 GMT
It's funny, because the DAI NPC clearly are more adults than the majority of the DAO crew,which were mostly teens whom belief could be easly manipulated by the protagonist.They had very simple views of the world and none of them even came close to the complexity of speech of NPC like Solas.Being traitors doesn't equate at being more deep or complex. Dunno where you hale from, but here in the states 18 means your an adult. Furthermore, even if these companions were teens, that is very stereotypical of saying that if your a teen, you have the maturity of a scone. I've met many a teen who acted better as an adult then a real adult. LMAO! Lol,and when or where I implied that legal age determines adulthood? And of course they are traitors if they break oaths during the story. Furthermore your misuderstanding of Solas just shows that he is so deep that you didn't understood him.He doesn't think the current world has no value,he thinks his world was better because was the natural one.Vivienne actually is indeed a complex and smart character,and her being part of the Orlesian game for so many years is just proof of it.Lol Aveline isn't in DAO. Alistair and Wynne were among the DAO companions who had a tunnel visioned world view,that's why we have him thinking that being a GW is an "honor" even if the game makes it clear is more a punishment and a burden,or Wynne being self-righteous during the whole game about things she didn't knew of the order. |
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Post by skrillex on Apr 21, 2018 3:18:08 GMT
Vivienne actually is indeed a complex and smart character,and her being part of the Orlesian game for so many years is just proof of it. The majority of Bioware characters were written to be complex,even if personally I don't understand why complex should translate into better. Certainly I prefer "simple" people(if you can really call an human being simple)over "complex" persons. Simple people are open and share everything with you. There's no hidden fact and meaning in it. They have their own choices, wishes and they convey it directly. Simple people do not give diplomatic answers or reasons. They directly say what's there in their heart. They are predictable and they are less of political, less of controversial and totally faithful. Simple people show really who they are. They don't talk behind your back. Rather they directly tell you what do they don't find good in you. This will lead you to improve yourself better. They don't carry multiple personalities. They are an unique individual. They are true admirers and when they admire, it's totally what they think of and your work is really good that time. When they apologize, they do it from the bottom of their heart and they make sure that it doesn't repeat again. Simple people are ideal life partners! From the so called "complex" people you can always expect bad surprises. |
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Post by heliosdisciple on Apr 21, 2018 8:15:47 GMT
Allistair's ragequit quite disappointing, while can be understandable he doesn't want to work with Loghain. I do have to wonder how Cousland would take it if Alistair and Riordan had recruited Arl Howe. |
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Post by skrillex on Apr 21, 2018 10:50:19 GMT
Allistair's ragequit quite disappointing, while can be understandable he doesn't want to work with Loghain. I do have to wonder how Cousland would take it if Alistair and Riordan had recruited Arl Howe. The game doesn't provide the option,so it's a moot point. Beside it depends on how a player see Arle Howe. Loghain and Arle Howe are two completely different people, I don't think the parallel makes sense. I doubt Howe would have accepted it considering how much he despise the order and the Couslands,so I think he would have just died instead of helping them.There is also the fact that Howe directly killed such family for greed,while Loghain didn't in fact killed Duncan despite what Alistair belives.Anyway me personally if I had some belief that I could trust him,sure why not? |
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Post by Sokemis on May 14, 2018 1:14:45 GMT
Warning, big wall of text incoming... Probably going to end up putting each companion in their own spoiler tag just to save space a little... Personally I like that some of the companions will leave if things get bad enough, it's more realistic. I may promise to help someone with a task, but if they treat me very poorly and start going against everything I believe in, you can be sure I (and I'm sure many/most people) would "break contract". If the original goal is something I believe in, I would still try to help, just not with that person. That being said, each of the companions that "betray" you, have their reason for doing so. For the sake of science and my own curiosity, I ran through the "betrayal points" of 4 of the characters to see how things like approval level, personal quest, and romance affect the outcomes. Note that for Sten/Leliana/Wynne I had level 3 coercion - which I think is enough to pass almost any persuade/intimidate check. I know you mentioned that you weren't aiming this at Leliana or Wynne - but since I included them in my experiments, I'm going to still include them here. I was not refferring to the low approval scenarios,I was referring to the npc that leaves or wants to kill the warden based on singular decisions that are no where near to be defined as evil. But approval does actually play into Sten, Lelianna, and Zevran's choices at their "betrayal points", in a way. Leliana and Wynne are very devout, and I'm sure they would perceive destroying their religions most holy of relics as "evil". As for the others, they have other reasons. Morrigan and Alistair - didn't test them since their leaving if you decline to DR or spare Loghain is a given. Morrigan
(Didn't test her since it is known that she will always leave if you decline the DR. I'm assuming this is the same even if you are in a romance with her? Haven't done her romance yet and the Warden I was doing testing with was female.) As someone else already posted, she had an ulterior motive from the start, so I don't know if she counts as far as this discussion goes... Morrigan more or less does the same as Alistair and even if she is not treaty bound,in my case I didn't gave her the Grimoire for free,but she doesn't care to keep her word. I don't remember her pledging her undying loyalty if you agree to get her the Grimoire. You can gift someone the Crown Jewels and they don't owe you anything just by virtue of the gift. And if you're referring to her leaving if you refuse to kill Flemeth: she believes her life is at stake, that Flemeth is planning to possess her. She has to find some way to protect herself, for her saving her own life trumps any agreement her mother may have made with you.
(Didn't test him since it's known that he always leaves if you spare Loghain.)
On a mechanics level, his leaving was just a way to make sure the ratio of warden's stays the same... But yeah, personally not okay with him leaving. I can get why he does, but for someone that touts the "ideals and duties" of the Wardens as he does, walking out at the eleventh hour just seems odd. Although as someone else mentioned, Alistair's romanticized vision of the Wardens doesn't match up with reality. I would have loved a dialogue option to tell him that Duncan most likely would have recruited Loghain... just to see his reaction.
In my own gameplay, the only time I've spared Loghain was in the same playthrough where my Warden completely hated Alistair and jumped at the chance to have Alistair executed. Have another playthough in the works where I will probably spare Loghain - at least in that playthrough Alistair will be King with Anora, so I can try to justify his leaving that he's staying behind to protect Denerim (weak I know, but at least it's something). Zevran, Wynne, Leliana, Sten - they are the ones I ran tests on Zevran
Tested this with many different approval levels, romance vs no romance, and warden's different dialogue choices. Replaying a scene with both Zevran and Gideon over and over? Oh the sacrifices I make for science  +24 romance = always sides with the Crows +26 romance = one dialogue choice will get him to help in the fight. The rest he won't help you in the fight but he won't fight against you either. +27 no romance = always helps +73 romance (care) = always helps I am not surprised at all that he turns on you in favor of the Crows as a low approval level. Zevran is a character that has been used and abused his whole life, most of it by the Crows. He may come across as arrogant and self-confident, but the Crows have seriously warped his sense of self/self worth and his belief in his ability to stand on his own away from the Crows. At a higher approval level, you can assume the Warden has shown him true friendship for probably the first time in his life - and in doing so has helped him gain the confidence to make a break from the Crows. On the flip-side, if your approval level is low, then it can be assumed that the Warden hasn't given him enough reason to trust him/her to choose the Warden over the Crows, not enough reason to believe he has any chance of surviving outside the Crows.. Think of how many battered women not only stay with their abusers, but defend them against family/friends, even when presented with a potential out. Same concept here. What did surprise me was that he would always help you as a friend at +26 approval, but you have to be all the way up to +73 approval for him to always help you if you're in a romance. I expected it to be the other way around...
She will always attack if she is still unhardened, regardless of approval/relationship (even at "love" with 100% approval).
If her personal quest has been completed and she was hardened, then she can be intimitated into not attacking (she'll still take a large approval hit, but she won't attack) at any approval (tried it at -97% approval with no relationship). You have to intimidate though, even at "love" with 100% approval while hardened she will attack unless you do so.
I think she can be persuaded to stay (I think you trick her into believing that the ashes are safe) when you talk to her back at camp, if she wasn't with you at the temple - but forgot to test that part... Wynne
I believe she is the only one where it is impossible to avoid a fight. Even if she wasn't present in the group when you defiled the ashes, I think she will always still leave the next time you talk to her at camp (not able to persuade her to stay) - but forgot to test that part...
Sten
Sten can be persuaded to back off from the fight with the right dialogue choice. If you go to Haven after completing his personal quest and have his approval at "friendly" (tested with approval at +79) he doesn't attack/challenge you at all, just talks.
Sten does not want to "suddenly kill you", he wants to test you, make sure you really are the best one to be leading them. He doesn't see finding the ashes as something that needs to be done in order to succeed, but something that is wasting time and distracting from the true goal - killing the Archdemon. If you do fight him and win, then he respects you even more because you have proven yourself (and if you die, then you obviously weren't worthy of leading in the first place). If Haven is done after completing his personal quest, then there is slightly different dialogue at the end of the conversation. In it you learn that even though he does trust you, it's not him (or even you) that he is worried about/focused on, but the Blight instead. So actually he's committed to ending the Blight, with or without you. And if it's with you, he wants to be sure you are the one that's able to get the job done. (And I don't think his not challenging you after completing his quest is simply a matter of "you did something for him / gave him something". You helped him restore part of his honor, and in doing so proved your own honor and with it your worthiness to lead in his eyes.) ShaleI'm assuming that Shale will always attack if you side with Branka (can you really blame her, especially given that Branka isn't looking for volunteers but wants to basically force dwarves to be made in to golems), regardless of approval. Not 100% sure though, didn't run a test on her. There's some things not even I will do for science.... and the Deep Roads is one of them.
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