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Post by Catilina on Jun 11, 2018 17:51:14 GMT
I can give one explanation: the Mages fears the Tranquils, and many of them want to be dead instead of being a Tranquil. The Tranquils are their embodied nightmare. And I suppose, they think, better to let them die – for them. Perhaps. I can't imagine other explanation. But I'm not sure about, just a theory. Anders killed Karl without hesitation – for Karl. Still sad. Update: they knew, the "cure" exists – so still weird. True, they don't know the method of the cure. Didn't Karl ask to be killed when spirit power made him temporarily normal again? I highly doubt the Tranquil are asking to be turned into devices for finding magical artifacts, so that is not an excuse. They are still either idiots, or just plain terrible people. Best to conscript the inquisition mages or leave them to their fate. Again, for me, it comes down to whether my inquisitors find the plot device of IHW important to deal with. Who asked for the death was Karl, who get back his emotions for a while. Tranquil Karl didn't ask for anything. "Why do you look at me like that?" I didn't say, this is an excuse. I said this is a possible and imaginable explanation. They didn't kill them – they left them. Still cruel. But they were prisoners in their whole life, since childhood. They already paid for it.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 11, 2018 18:18:59 GMT
I think the mages just preferred not to think about where the tranquil had gone. They felt uncomfortable with them around and then they weren't. So they probably convinced themselves the tranquil had just been taken to do some job elsewhere because they didn't want to think about them or have to face up to the truth that they had probably been disposed of. I certainly hope the rebels mages were ignorant of the actual details of what was done to them. That was truly horrific considering they were actually rendered non-tranquil for an instant before they were killed so were fully aware when they were murdered and as restored tranquil would have had heightened emotions.
I will never get over the writers using that as a plot device for the occulara, making it a major side-quest and then never having the crime brought up again. Why couldn't it be an either/or situation? Either you disregard the awful way they were obtained and complete the quest OR you can choose to reject them but bring those responsible for creating them to trial and make an example of them. I would have been happy to never finish the Forbidden Oasis if I could have had proper justice for the tranquil.
As a side issue I never understood how those shards came to be scattered across Thedas in the first place.
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Post by jaerick243 on Jun 11, 2018 18:33:41 GMT
As a side issue I never understood how those shards came to be scattered across Thedas in the first place. Me neither. But hey, resistance points at the low, low cost of bashing a bunch of skulls.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jun 11, 2018 20:11:07 GMT
I was thinking on this a little more from an in-game perspective. We're trying to close the Breach. We know that the mages bring power to the table to help make this happen. How do a bunch of warriors close it?
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Post by jaerick243 on Jun 11, 2018 20:14:28 GMT
I was thinking on this a little more from an in-game perspective. We're trying to close the Breach. We know that the mages bring power to the table to help make this happen. How do a bunch of warriors close it? I do not know, Ask Solas? Again, for me, it comes down to the plot device of time magic, and how much of a problem my inquisitors see it.
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Post by Catilina on Jun 11, 2018 20:50:55 GMT
I was thinking on this a little more from an in-game perspective. We're trying to close the Breach. We know that the mages bring power to the table to help make this happen. How do a bunch of warriors close it? You mean the Templars? They have the power to strengthen the reality and weaken the Fade-powers. So: they weaken the rifts. Or something similar. I suppose. And they able to fight with the demons (just as the Mages). I suppose the mages are the better choice, but both able to do it with different power.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 11, 2018 20:58:48 GMT
Essentially the mages power bolster the power of the anchor to enable it to push back against the encroaching Fade and close the rift. The Templars push back against the Fade power, reducing the magic that is opposing the anchor, so making it easier for the Inquisitor to close the rift.
Or if you prefer it, Templars reinforce reality making it harder for the Fade to encroach into the material world - That is how Solas explains their powers anyway.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jun 11, 2018 23:26:03 GMT
I was thinking on this a little more from an in-game perspective. We're trying to close the Breach. We know that the mages bring power to the table to help make this happen. How do a bunch of warriors close it? We don't actually know any such thing at the time. Cassandra speculates that the mages might be able to put more power into the mark, despite not being a mage or really understanding the mark, and despite the fact that only one of the mages involved actually understands the mark. That the mages can solve it is mostly guesswork right up until it actually works. <iframe width="23.960000000000036" height="3.0600000000000023" style="position: absolute; width: 23.960000000000036px; height: 3.0600000000000023px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none;left: 15px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_61949498" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="23.960000000000036" height="3.0600000000000023" style="position: absolute; width: 23.96px; height: 3.06px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1138px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_51588824" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="23.960000000000036" height="3.0600000000000023" style="position: absolute; width: 23.96px; height: 3.06px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 94px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_48121718" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="23.960000000000036" height="3.0600000000000023" style="position: absolute; width: 23.96px; height: 3.06px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1138px; top: 94px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_29501672" scrolling="no"></iframe> Cullen on the other hand is able to tell you from experience exactly how the templars would do such a thing: they use their lyrium-granted anti-magic to... well, Gervaise and Catilina already covered that, but the point is, Cullen is able to tell you from experience how that's going to work. I think Leiliana dismisses his words as "pure speculation" or something along those lines, but he's doing a good deal less speculating than the advisers who say the mages can solve the problem.
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Post by xerrai on Jun 12, 2018 0:04:26 GMT
Except they do tell you how the magic would be applied. By powering the mark. It's not exactly detailed, but its on about the same level as Cullen's explanation of "weakening magic".
We know from other rifts that templar abilities can't actually reject the magic to the point of sealing rifts. And 'weakening magic' to weaken the rifts around them is basically just Cullen speculating (unless he tested it out at some point and didn't tell us). Cassandra on the other hand consulted at least one mage (Solas) about the mark.
And I don't know about you, but I would much rather take the advice of someone who consulted someone who actually studies magic instead of an ex-templar who defaults to using templar abilities. It's nothing personal against Cullen, I just think his de-facto response of 'templar abilities' is being made only because that's all he knows that can combat magic--even when we know that this magic cannot be completely repelled like your typical set of spells.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jun 12, 2018 0:30:12 GMT
Except they do tell you how the magic would be applied. By powering the mark. It's not exactly detailed, but its on about the same level as Cullen's explanation of "weakening magic". Yes, they tell you they think they can do that. Cullen tells you he knows templars can weaken Veil tears.I hope she did, since Solas is the only person around (of any description) who really understands what's going on. He's the only one present who might actually know that what Cassandra suggests is possible. But the main reason I'm sure Solas truly understands what's going on (instead of making a whole bunch of lucky guesses) is that he's secretly the immortal who created the Veil, which the Inquisition doesn't learn for about three more years. She doesn't know he actually knows what he's talking about. He defaults to using templar abilities because he understands them. He knows how they work. He can probably cite precedents of templars sealing less serious rifts, since we know from the Codex that Thedasians already know how to seal small rifts. That templars can weaken the Breach enough for Quizzy to seal it with the Anchor is probably something he is reasonably sure of based on guesswork starting from things he's seen firsthand. Only one of the people who would have you use the mage option understands the forces they're trying to get you to use even that well, and he's posing as someone who understands a whole lot less than he actually does.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jun 12, 2018 5:34:55 GMT
I hope she did, since Solas is the only person around (of any description) who really understands what's going on. He's the only one present who might actually know that what Cassandra suggests is possible. But the main reason I'm sure Solas truly understands what's going on (instead of making a whole bunch of lucky guesses) is that he's secretly the immortal who created the Veil, which the Inquisition doesn't learn for about three more years. She doesn't know he actually knows what he's talking about. Cassandra could reasonably assume he knows what he's talking about. I don't know what kind of conversations she's had with him but I do know what the Inquisitor could have discussed, which was that Solas spent many years traveling the Fade. Regardless of the truth about him, it's exceedingly likely that he'd know more about how the Fade works than anyone alive. ANYONE. There's a sort of legitimacy there that no Templar has. Also, how many Templars accompany the Inquisitor into battle? ZERO. Mages? Three. I know where I'd place my bets.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jun 12, 2018 5:52:09 GMT
I hope she did, since Solas is the only person around (of any description) who really understands what's going on. He's the only one present who might actually know that what Cassandra suggests is possible. But the main reason I'm sure Solas truly understands what's going on (instead of making a whole bunch of lucky guesses) is that he's secretly the immortal who created the Veil, which the Inquisition doesn't learn for about three more years. She doesn't know he actually knows what he's talking about. Cassandra could reasonably assume he knows what he's talking about. I don't know what kind of conversations she's had with him but I do know what the Inquisitor could have discussed, which was that Solas spent many years traveling the Fade. Regardless of the truth about him, it's exceedingly likely that he'd know more about how the Fade works than anyone alive. ANYONE. There's a sort of legitimacy there that no Templar has. Okay, but nothing he claims to have observed seems like sufficient evidence that he actually knows this idea will work. I don't remember seeing anything like this at Ostagar. Even seeing the ancient elven cities might not provide any decent hints, since he claimed (rightly, as it turned out) that there was no Veil back then. What could he have told Cassandra that would give her reason to believe this is possible, other than the truth? (Which I hope he didn't tell her.)I can think of at least two occasions where Cullen takes the field personally (three if you recruit the mages,) but I'm not sure that's relevant because I'm not sure what conclusions we can draw based on how often he actually holds a sword.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2018 5:58:05 GMT
First my lavellan choice the templars cause.. idk Cassandra? the fact the people in Redcliffe were so totally irresponsible and lost that it was a waste of effort? My second Mage Trevelyan was just a supporter of the circle like Vivienne was. His divine was Cassandra tho. My last and final person, a Female Rogue Lavellan was sympathetic towards the mages and thus choice to save them.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 12, 2018 7:47:23 GMT
Also, how many Templars accompany the Inquisitor into battle? ZERO. Mages? Three. I know where I'd place my bets.
Actually Cassandra counts as a Templar since the Seekers are associated with that order and her powers in game are those of a Templar. I don't think that you should use the fact that the writers had a bias in favour of mage companions over Templar companions (since there are 3 different types of mage but only one type of Templar) should be used as evidence that Templars have not been helping. There are Templars who have joined the Inquisition prior to the decision and we can talk with them. They may not be companions but they are contributing to the fight.
I have to admit that when I was told the idea of using the mages was to pour more magic into the Breach I was somewhat worried about the advisability of doing that. Then Cullen actually says he thinks it is a bad idea and I think he says that is because it could make it worse, which were exactly my sentiments. The Breach was created originally through a huge magical explosion and we want to pour more magic into it? We are left to assume that Solas has advised this is going to be okay but to be honest if it had happened to me in real life I'd have liked him to explain in person just how he thinks that would work. The Herald, particularly if they are not a mage, is having to rely on other people's word about this and I have to admit that on the subject of the mechanics of the operation Cullen is more convincing than anyone else at the table.
Bear in mind the dogma about the Magisters and the Black City say the Veil was opened by the use of a huge amount of magic but they were not able to sustain the opening once that magic was used up. Also historically we have been told that the Veil is thin where large amounts of magic have been in use. So that would suggest that reducing the amount of magic around the Breach would be more beneficial than pouring more magic into it. That is the logic that should be informing the debate at the table, particularly considering these people are said to be believers in the Chant of Light. Why are Cassandra and Leliana suggesting something that seems to run contrary to the teaching of their faith? Because Solas is an expert on the Fade? We only have his word for that. Grabbing the Herald's hand and shoving it into the first rift we encounter could have just been a lucky hunch.
In hindsight we do seem to give a awful lot of credibility and put an awful lot of trust in the word of this apostate who conveniently just appeared on the scene. If the mages are suspected of being involved in the explosion and its purpose wasn't just to kill the Divine, what if Solas was in collusion with the perpetrators and his assistance was merely to try and finish the job they started? Whilst we do not yet know about Corypheus, Chantry dogma once again might suggest that perhaps those responsible had been trying to open a way to the Black City for whatever reason. Yet this idea never crosses the mind of the Chantry stalwarts right up until we discover that is exactly what Corypheus was trying to do. Remember we hear words at the Temple of Sacred Ashes that speak of a sacrifice. Normally a sacrifice is done with the purpose of achieving something and low and behold there is a huge hole in the sky leading into the Fade.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jun 12, 2018 19:02:23 GMT
I'm probably just using my bias to make my view "right". I suppose I should do a PT where I side with the Templars, just for the sake of seeing how it works out if for no other reason. I guess "Champions of the Just" does indicate that they're not so bad, though I think it would have been interesting if, instead of seeing Red Templars, we instead saw Red Mages in the case where you side with the Templars. I guess that would have been a lot of work for the devs.
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Post by Lazarillo on Jun 12, 2018 19:57:22 GMT
I think it would have been interesting if, instead of seeing Red Templars, we instead saw Red Mages in the case where you side with the Templars. I guess that would have been a lot of work for the devs. You...kind of do. Well, not explicitly infused with Red Lyrium, no, but we know from various other missions that Venatori are using the red stuff in much the same way that less cultishly fanatical Mages use the regular kind. And in that regard, while you fight Venatori and Red Templars regardless ( another reason mutual exclusivity of the routes was dumb), you do fight more Venatori if you go Templars, just as you fight more Red Templars if you side with the rebellion.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jun 12, 2018 20:01:42 GMT
I'm probably just using my bias to make my view "right". I suppose I should do a PT where I side with the Templars, just for the sake of seeing how it works out if for no other reason. Doesn't that sort of go against the spirit of the thread? You're not supposed to use meta information. Or rather, it's asking you to justify your choice only using in-game information available to your character at the time. What I'm saying is that I don't believe there is a "wrong" way to look at it if you're talking strictly roleplay. Your character will choose by whatever criteria that suits him/her, even if it's as silly as "templars wearing skirts is stupid [because they hinder combat]." To the wider argument, I suppose it depends on how rigid you're willing to be with your judgement (in the abstract, not your player choice) of the remaining templars. Barris turns out to be a good dude, but he still followed in the moment. Cullen is a good dude as well, but he didn't do anything to stop Meredith, or the horrible acts of the other templars. I don't say this in an anti-Cullen way, but rather to point out that you will have those facts to consider when you think of the DAI templars and how to deal with them.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jun 12, 2018 21:56:48 GMT
Doesn't that sort of go against the spirit of the thread? You're not supposed to use meta information. Or rather, it's asking you to justify your choice only using in-game information available to your character at the time. I have my decision based on in-game perspective only. That's why I went mage. The part about checking the Templars was just to see it rather than any opinion here. From the perspective of my Inquisitor, it's mages all the way because it seems as though they'd be more useful in closing a rift than Templars. Others have countered my opinion with meta information but I went with my own thoughts on the matter.
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Post by jaerick243 on Jun 12, 2018 22:12:21 GMT
Doesn't that sort of go against the spirit of the thread? You're not supposed to use meta information. Or rather, it's asking you to justify your choice only using in-game information available to your character at the time. I have my decision based on in-game perspective only. That's why I went mage. The part about checking the Templars was just to see it rather than any opinion here. From the perspective of my Inquisitor, it's mages all the way because it seems as though they'd be more useful in closing a rift than Templars. Others have countered my opinion with meta information but I went with my own thoughts on the matter. Neither side is really correct. The big problem is that nobody knows what level of power was used to create the breach. Using mages might need hundreds or thousands of mages, using only knowledge we know at the time precisely because of the lack of information on the creation of the breach. Neither the mages nor the templars are guaranteed to work. That is why I choose exclusively based on how my character feels about the time magic in Redcliffe, if it is important to deal with right away or not.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jun 12, 2018 23:58:30 GMT
Neither the mages nor the templars are guaranteed to work. That is why I choose exclusively based on how my character feels about the time magic in Redcliffe, if it is important to deal with right away or not. Understood. In my view, time magic needs to be stopped. Letting Alexia play havoc with time just doesn't seem right.
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Post by phoray on Jun 13, 2018 0:13:41 GMT
Neither the mages nor the templars are guaranteed to work. That is why I choose exclusively based on how my character feels about the time magic in Redcliffe, if it is important to deal with right away or not. Understood. In my view, time magic needs to be stopped. Letting Alexia play havoc with time just doesn't seem right. This is why now that I understand how the game works, if I WANT to side Templars this go round, I craft a character that would never go to see the mages, even if politely invited, in the first place. (or very similar). Once that meeting with Dorian happens, it's all over so if I want Templars, my inky never goes to that Meeting to learn about the time magic in the first place
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Post by dmc1001 on Jun 13, 2018 0:15:46 GMT
Understood. In my view, time magic needs to be stopped. Letting Alexia play havoc with time just doesn't seem right. This is why now that I understand how the game works, if I WANT to side Templars this go round, I craft a character that would never go to see the mages, even if politely invited, in the first place. (or very similar). Once that meeting with Dorian happens, it's all over so if I want Templars, my inky never goes to that Meeting to learn about the time magic in the first place I'm curious. Does siding with the Templars prevent Dorian from joining the Inquisition? That would be downright unacceptable to me.
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Dreadnaw Rising
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August 2016
phoray
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
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Post by phoray on Jun 13, 2018 0:23:22 GMT
Understood. In my view, time magic needs to be stopped. Letting Alexia play havoc with time just doesn't seem right. This is why now that I understand how the game works, if I WANT to side Templars this go round, I craft a character that would never go to see the mages, even if politely invited, in the first place. (or very similar). Once that meeting with Dorian happens, it's all over so if I want Templars, my inky never goes to that Meeting to learn about the time magic in the first place Nope. you know how Cole pops up at the gate just as Haven is attacked? Put Dorian in that spot. It changes a couple of the Haven Attack Scenes. To be honest, I think I prefer this version of the Haven Attack Scenes, but I definitely prefer IHW as a quest.
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Yermogi
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 60 Likes: 148
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Yermogi
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August 2016
yermogi
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Yermogi on Jun 13, 2018 2:34:16 GMT
Well, I always play as a mage because mages are fun to play, but here's why they side with the mages.
My Qunari was raised and taught by Tal-Vashoth saarebas. She saw the scars on their mouths, the destroyed horns, and the way that probably many of them suffered from PTSD. They were treated as monsters because they had powers that they did not choose, and rarely wanted after what happened to them after they manifested. But she also saw how they were kind, gentle, and caring towards her and other children, and instilled in her the true value of freedom. In all beings, human, qunari, elf, and dwarf, there is choice in who you want to be. Do you want to be good? If you want to be good, you will do everything you can to be good and help others. Will you make mistakes? Of course you will, but everyone, including mages, has to face temptations and easy way outs. Mages may have a harder time of it in some areas, but just because you have powers that you were born with does not innately mean that you need to be locked away from society for all your life. In her case, being around her family and others made her even more aware of how careful she had to be with her magic; a moment of lost control meant that someone could be seriously hurt. The fact that mages were barely allowed to interact with others at all only made it harder and more difficult for them. Plus, there was the whole awful, inhumane abuses overlooked because "Hey, they're just mages, so they're basically monsters anyway so stay away from them" view that a LOT of Templars seemed to either enforce, or not dissuade people from.
For my elf mage, the above view is basically the same. Mages CAN pose dangers, yes, but the Dalish have systems in place to try to minimize such occurrences, and frankly, there doesn't seem to be that many instances of mages going insane and killing people amongst the Dalish. If there were that many, they'd all be dead. She'd never encountered anyone like that anyway. She was taught how to use her skills wisely and cautiously, and that's worked out pretty well for her. She didn't need to be locked away from her family to learn how to control herself. Circles seem unnecessary at best, inhumane at worst.
My human mage is all for Circle reformation, because she was fortunate enough to go to a Circle where the templars got along well with the mages, they were allowed more freedoms than other Circles (given dialogue choices), and she was able to visit and be close to her family. She learned a lot and had many friends. The towns around the Circle weren't really afraid of mages because Ostwick didn't seem to have any serious incidences of magical misuse. So my human experienced everything that a Circle should be at it's best- a place of learning and safety, but not a prison where you were punished for being a mage. She is fully aware of how very lucky she is, because every mage at Ostwick knew that the vast majority of other Circles were not like that, and in fact most of them were worse. She wishes the war hadn't had to come to pass, but she understands why it did and is sympathetic to mages who truly only want freedom from tyrannical treatment. My Human Quizzie is a lot like Vivienne in many ways, though they differ on a few key points.
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pavellaning
N3
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition
Posts: 369 Likes: 1,014
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Feb 28, 2019 20:58:08 GMT
1,014
pavellaning
369
December 2017
pavellaning
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition
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Post by pavellaning on Jun 14, 2018 4:00:39 GMT
It was simple for my current Inquisitor, Sofia; she lost a sister to the Circle system. She resented the Templars who took Keira away and would do anything to help Mages.
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