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Post by deeproadsdweller on Jun 8, 2018 17:11:53 GMT
Morale aside, I'm not sure which side is better for the dwarven race in the long run. The golems may reclaim territories at first but when Branca goes insane those golems all go to her fortress if I remember correctly. Branca will however die one day and what happens to those golems is a mystery. However if you destroy the anvil it's gone for good and it may be needed later, not to mention reconquering the Deep Roads is a more realistic possibility.
If the anvil is destroyed then at least you don't have to worry about it turning against the dwarves later. The hope is that the darkspawn will eventually decline and it won't be needed in the long run. The anvil may simply be too risky and provide a danger of its own. I could see some mad king using the anvil with terrible consequense, especially if Kal-Sharok and Orzammar get into a war.
Basically destroying the anvil is the safe play while keeping it is risky but potentially more rewarding. The dwarves are my favorite thing about this series and I hope we get to see possible outcomes for this some time down the road or at least some development of this story. I'm leaning to the side of keeping the anvil, as it may be the only way the dwarves ever fully reclaim the Deep Roads. Maybe it needs to be destroyed later after all is said and done, but for now the dwarves are in a sticky situation and need some breathing room. I would be curious to hear other opinions.
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Post by Catilina on Jun 8, 2018 17:26:06 GMT
The golems are stone slaves, and depends on the user, of course, they're not only volutary dwarves. The Anvil of Void can be an evil political tool, and a golem can serve the evils too – whatever that the control rod's owner wants.
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Post by deeproadsdweller on Jun 8, 2018 17:37:35 GMT
The golems are stone slaves, and depends on the user, of course, they're not only volutary dwarves. The Anvil of Void can be an evil political tool, and a golem can serve the evils too – whatever that the control rod's owner wants. But only the dwarves know how to use the anvil so they will always control the vast majority. I know it may not be right morally, but that's not the question here. |
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Post by Catilina on Jun 8, 2018 18:25:44 GMT
The golems are stone slaves, and depends on the user, of course, they're not only volutary dwarves. The Anvil of Void can be an evil political tool, and a golem can serve the evils too – whatever that the control rod's owner wants. But only the dwarves know how to use the anvil so they will always control the vast majority. I know it may not be right morally, but that's not the question here. And there are no evil dwarves? And the control rod? Everyone can use. The process is irreversible – at least we don't know how true, Shale still on it. According to Caridin, must be destroyed – and he saw, what happened when they used it. I voted for destroying. |
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Post by vertigomez on Jun 8, 2018 19:39:05 GMT
Depends entirely on what you value. My Aeducan sided with Branka and kept the Anvil around because she cared deeply about her people (or rather her nostalgia-tinted view of her people....), and reclaiming ancient thaigs, lost history, etc. was more than enough reason to preserve it. Not to mention everyone she grew up with had lost at least one or two members of their immediate family to the darkspawn. No question, it was worth it. My Brosca destroyed it because he knew exactly who going to be "volunteered" to be molten-lyrium-golemized and also fuck Orzammar, the only things worth saving are Rica and her kid. 😂 To him, "what's best for Orzammar" has always been a phrase that doesn't include him or anyone he cares about. The dregs of society suffering even more than they already do to.. what.. protect a bunch of noble assholes in their ivory towers, who're too proud and fearful to dig themselves out of the dirt and live on the surface? It's their own folly, and not worth the cost. |
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Post by melbella on Jun 9, 2018 1:07:44 GMT
Considering having golems in the first place didn't save the dwarven empires, why would this time be different?
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jun 9, 2018 8:29:43 GMT
Considering having golems in the first place didn't save the dwarven empires, why would this time be different? They didn't get to make them for very long, though, did they? They only got to use the Anvil of the Void between when Caridin perfected the process, and when he became a golem himself. The result was a small number of superweapons that they can only afford to use when things get so bad that they're at risk of losing something way more valuable than these ultra-rare superweapons. Branka could have changed the game considerably by creating a whole bunch more golems and teaching others to do so as well... but she's apparently not going to given that the new King apparently loses contact with her by the time of Inquisition. (So at best all they got was a bunch more golems, and at worst there's another evil out there pursuing its own selfish goals in a setting that already wasn't short of them.) |
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Post by Cantina on Jun 10, 2018 6:53:29 GMT
I for one did as Caridan asked.
For starters, Branka sacrificed her whole house just to get to the Anvil. Which is bad- insanely bad. Then when you arrive and find out how golems are..were made and the consequences, well to me that should be obvious to anyone with a sense of a moral compass to destroy it. But uh that is my opinion.
I agree 100% with Caridan. No smith or anyone for that matter, should have power over life no matter the intentions. Look what happened with Caridan good intentions.
Is it worth the risk?
No.
Look, I'm sorry the dwarves lost their kingdoms, but making stone/metal warriors is not going to bring it back no matter how many they create.
Its a dangerous lost art. Let it stay lost.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jun 10, 2018 7:32:09 GMT
Look, I'm sorry the dwarves lost their kingdoms, but making stone/metal warriors is not going to bring it back no matter how many they create.
But... what if you had a whole lot of them, and... they were firking huge? |
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Post by deeproadsdweller on Jun 10, 2018 10:11:47 GMT
Look, I'm sorry the dwarves lost their kingdoms, but making stone/metal warriors is not going to bring it back no matter how many they create.
Codex entry: Orzammar chapter two "We were losing the war against the darkspawn. Slowly. A few men at a time, but losing all the same. The Warrior Caste was dwindling with each generation as more able-bodied men perished in their prime without fathering sons. With each generation, more of the Deep Roads had to be sealed, more thaigs lost forever. The kings of Orzammar watched, and wondered how long it would be until nothing remained of our people but the Memories.And then Paragon Caridin arose from the Smith Caste with a new weapon: Golems. Giant soldiers of living stone and metal, each one was an army. With the Paragon's golems, we began to retake the lands we had lost. For a while, there was hope that victory, final victory, was coming.
But at the height of the war, Paragon Caridin disappeared, and with him, the means to make golems. Several forays were made into the Deep Roads to search for the Paragon, but nothing was ever found. Over time, the golems we had were damaged beyond repair, and we began our slide, once again, toward extinction."Not only did the golems help. They brought back hope. There is always a price to be paid, but survival is always worth the cost. |
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Post by Catilina on Jun 10, 2018 11:03:11 GMT
Look, I'm sorry the dwarves lost their kingdoms, but making stone/metal warriors is not going to bring it back no matter how many they create.
Codex entry: Orzammar chapter two "We were losing the war against the darkspawn. Slowly. A few men at a time, but losing all the same. The Warrior Caste was dwindling with each generation as more able-bodied men perished in their prime without fathering sons. With each generation, more of the Deep Roads had to be sealed, more thaigs lost forever. The kings of Orzammar watched, and wondered how long it would be until nothing remained of our people but the Memories.And then Paragon Caridin arose from the Smith Caste with a new weapon: Golems. Giant soldiers of living stone and metal, each one was an army. With the Paragon's golems, we began to retake the lands we had lost. For a while, there was hope that victory, final victory, was coming.
But at the height of the war, Paragon Caridin disappeared, and with him, the means to make golems. Several forays were made into the Deep Roads to search for the Paragon, but nothing was ever found. Over time, the golems we had were damaged beyond repair, and we began our slide, once again, toward extinction."Not only did the golems help. They brought back hope. There is always a price to be paid, but survival is always worth the cost. And what happen, if nobody wants to be a golem? Then who will have the right to force people – to doom them to eternal slavery – without free will over their acts, over their own stone body? If the war is over, the controll rod forces them standstill – or to destroy their own people. But they can thinking – at least Shale was able. She just stand in the place, and was not able to move. She was prisoner in her own stone shell impotently... Who deserves such a fate? And who have right to decide?
This isn't hope. The Golems can be weapon against the dwarves too. Question: worth it to save such a world?
Not mentioned, if the Anvil seems working well... the people will not think about another, less cruel solutions.
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Post by Cantina on Jun 10, 2018 11:49:46 GMT
Look, I'm sorry the dwarves lost their kingdoms, but making stone/metal warriors is not going to bring it back no matter how many they create.
Codex entry: Orzammar chapter two "We were losing the war against the darkspawn. Slowly. A few men at a time, but losing all the same. The Warrior Caste was dwindling with each generation as more able-bodied men perished in their prime without fathering sons. With each generation, more of the Deep Roads had to be sealed, more thaigs lost forever. The kings of Orzammar watched, and wondered how long it would be until nothing remained of our people but the Memories.And then Paragon Caridin arose from the Smith Caste with a new weapon: Golems. Giant soldiers of living stone and metal, each one was an army. With the Paragon's golems, we began to retake the lands we had lost. For a while, there was hope that victory, final victory, was coming.
But at the height of the war, Paragon Caridin disappeared, and with him, the means to make golems. Several forays were made into the Deep Roads to search for the Paragon, but nothing was ever found. Over time, the golems we had were damaged beyond repair, and we began our slide, once again, toward extinction."Not only did the golems help. They brought back hope. There is always a price to be paid, but survival is always worth the cost. Oh I love how people throw any type of game lore in anyone's face to try and make them seem so smart and the person who made their opinion - yes OPINION - seem like an idiot.
(rolls eyes)
Look sweetie, I'm not some 12 year old who begged and whined my mommy to buy a Dragon Age game off the shelf in some back -woods Wal-mart. So, please don't toss lore in my face to make a statement about an opinion I made. Or hell anyone face for that matter. If you disagree with my opinion say so with your own words.
Furthermore, you so-called lore is futile in trying to make whatever retort to an opinion.
The codex that was written could be summoned up simply as "Duh."
The problem is: no one knew the cost of such peace. Great. One uses volunteers. But then some king comes along and by royal decree no longer wants just volunteers, he forces people to become them. The dwarves have numerous ways to take back what was theirs, they just became complacence on the use of Golems. If you put all your stock in a single means of victory eventually you will loose. And that was what happened. The Dwarves became too complacent in the golems, when they disappeared they lost.
You don't hear the Wardens, "Oh we lost our Griffins." Then sit back and choose to do nothing about the Darkspawn. "Sorry. We can no longer fight Darkspawn because we lost our Griffins. But we will bitch about it, to anyone within earshot."
Its far easier to bitch and whine about what was lost then do something about it. Oh sure, the dwarves have the Legion of the Dead, but that like trying to clean an elephant with a very small toothbrush. For all their bluster the dwarves sure are pussies.
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Post by deeproadsdweller on Jun 10, 2018 14:12:33 GMT
Oh I love how people throw any type of game lore in anyone's face to try and make them seem so smart and the person who made their opinion - yes OPINION - seem like an idiot.
(rolls eyes)
Look sweetie, I'm not some 12 year old who begged and whined my mommy to buy a Dragon Age game off the shelf in some back -woods Wal-mart. So, please don't toss lore in my face to make a statement about an opinion I made. Or hell anyone face for that matter. If you disagree with my opinion say so with your own words.
Furthermore, you so-called lore is futile in trying to make whatever retort to an opinion.
The codex that was written could be summoned up simply as "Duh."
The problem is: no one knew the cost of such peace. Great. One uses volunteers. But then some king comes along and by royal decree no longer wants just volunteers, he forces people to become them. The dwarves have numerous ways to take back what was theirs, they just became complacence on the use of Golems. If you put all your stock in a single means of victory eventually you will loose. And that was what happened. The Dwarves became too complacent in the golems, when they disappeared they lost.
You don't hear the Wardens, "Oh we lost our Griffins." Then sit back and choose to do nothing about the Darkspawn. "Sorry. We can no longer fight Darkspawn because we lost our Griffins. But we will bitch about it, to anyone within earshot."
Its far easier to bitch and whine about what was lost then do something about it. Oh sure, the dwarves have the Legion of the Dead, but that like trying to clean an elephant with a very small toothbrush. For all their bluster the dwarves sure are pussies.
No need to get so insulted, keep your opinions to yourself if you don't wish to defend them. It's funny, the dwarves deal with darkspawn every day. Every year they have to spend countless lives just to protect their homes. The surface only bothers to care for the threat if a blight happens, well if not for the dwarves those blights would be much worse. And you call them pussies, okay. |
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Post by deeproadsdweller on Jun 10, 2018 14:42:27 GMT
And what happen, if nobody wants to be a golem? Then who will have the right to force people – to doom them to eternal slavery – without free will over their acts, over their own stone body? If the war is over, the controll rod forces them standstill – or to destroy their own people. But they can thinking – at least Shale was able. She just stand in the place, and was not able to move. She was prisoner in her own stone shell impotently... Who deserves such a fate? And who have right to decide?
This isn't hope. The Golems can be weapon against the dwarves too. Question: worth it to save such a world?
Not mentioned, if the Anvil seems working well... the people will not think about another, less cruel solutions.
Tevinter uses slaves all the time, only to fill their own pockets. Golems are different, they are used for survival. And think of how many dwarven lives are saved in the place of one golem. If something would threaten the very existense of your people you use all methods available in order to survive. Golems would give the dwarves an edge over the darkspawn. If they can push them back and reclaim the Deep Roads they can control the dark spawn hordes and maybe end the threat forever? |
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Post by Catilina on Jun 10, 2018 14:55:44 GMT
And what happen, if nobody wants to be a golem? Then who will have the right to force people – to doom them to eternal slavery – without free will over their acts, over their own stone body? If the war is over, the controll rod forces them standstill – or to destroy their own people. But they can thinking – at least Shale was able. She just stand in the place, and was not able to move. She was prisoner in her own stone shell impotently... Who deserves such a fate? And who have right to decide?
This isn't hope. The Golems can be weapon against the dwarves too. Question: worth it to save such a world?
Not mentioned, if the Anvil seems working well... the people will not think about another, less cruel solutions.
Tevinter uses slaves all the time, only to fill their own pockets. Golems are different, they are used for survival. And think of how many dwarven lives are saved in the place of one golem. If something would threaten the very existense of your people you use all methods available in order to survive. Golems would give the dwarves an edge over the darkspawn. If they can push them back and reclaim the Deep Roads they can control the dark spawn hordes and maybe end the threat forever? Yes, Tevinter uses slaves. But these slaves not imprisoned in their body for centuries. They're property, but still have more freedom than a golem. And still have some –true, limited– choices, and able to die... sometimes it can be a blesing.
And I never supported any version of slavery.
Maybe that ends the threat of the darkspawn hordes – but ends the trhreat of dwarves who's making golems?
So: no. The Anvill must be destroyed, and the dwarves must thinking on a real solution.
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Post by pavellaning on Jun 11, 2018 0:12:19 GMT
My evil inclined Wardens always side with Branka and let the anvil remain. My good Wardens always destroy it themselves. It really depends on the Warden.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jun 11, 2018 3:56:09 GMT
My evil inclined Wardens always side with Branka and let the anvil remain. My good Wardens always destroy it themselves. It really depends on the Warden. I'd thought the question is which has the better result, though. I didn't vote because I'm honestly not sure. It depends on exactly what's going on with Branka's disappearance. If she's dead, but before she died she made some more priceless golems that are now in Orzammar's hands, then it's probably a net gain (though maybe not one to be proud of.) If she's in the Deep Roads plotting, it could very easily be a bad thing. If she was out there plotting, and she'd had Orzammar's best interests at heart, then you'd think she'd have made an appearance in Descent. |
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Post by Iddy on Jun 11, 2018 12:24:07 GMT
From the point of view of the dwarves becoming golems, not so great.
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Post by davesin on Jun 11, 2018 12:27:02 GMT
I'm not sure if the Anvil is going to be useful for anyone aside for Branka, who seems to live in isolation, protected by her golems. Unless they are used for fighting the darkspawn (and there's no epilogue or codex entry that suggests they are after events of Origins), they are just gloryfied Barbie dolls for their mistress. And I wouldn't be surprised if Branka turned herself into golem (to be like Caridin, not controlled by any rod), just to reach the closest thing to immortality she has in order to continue with her work (question is if we'll ever see any results of this). For me, the canon option is destroy. From metagaming perspective, the payoff for keeping it isn't much. From RP perspective: Branka is mad, I consider Caridin as the greatest authority on this subject (since he's the one who created the Anvil) and I saw enough of Terminator to know that artificial beings will one day rise and kill their creators. Maker curse them, those ungrateful stone/steel/flesh bastards who can't appreciate the gift of immortality and smashing things when they're told so.  It would be interesting if there was an option to keep the Anvil for studying it. After all, it's an unique piece of technology. Alas, it's either destroyed or in hands of Branka. |
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Post by Catilina on Jun 11, 2018 12:35:02 GMT
My evil inclined Wardens always side with Branka and let the anvil remain. My good Wardens always destroy it themselves. It really depends on the Warden. This is the point. The key word is 'evil'. But the question was this can be justified with good intention? |
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Post by pavellaning on Jun 11, 2018 12:50:11 GMT
My evil inclined Wardens always side with Branka and let the anvil remain. My good Wardens always destroy it themselves. It really depends on the Warden. This is the point. The key word is 'evil'. But the question was this can be justified with good intention? Their intention was to stop the Blight at all costs. At least in the case of my Tabris, she genuinely thought slavery was a-okay. She believes that sacrificing a few is good for the 'greater good' and that the ends justify the means. She took Duncan's utilitarian views and made her own agenda to achieve what needed to be done no matter how many she cut down along the way. Yet, she still got called a "hero" at the end although she sold the elves of the alienage to Caladrius and so forth. |
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Post by thats1evildude on Jun 11, 2018 20:25:23 GMT
This isn't a real conversation we're having, is it? Did I hit my head?
The Anvil of the Void will destroy the dwarves. It's literally too good not to abuse. You might start out with good intentions, but sooner or later someone will get the idea of feeding political opponents and the "less valuable" members of society to the Anvil.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2018 23:46:36 GMT
Destroy so Branka doesn't kidnap people to make them golems...
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copper
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Post by copper on Jun 12, 2018 0:08:58 GMT
From a meta and moral perspective I'd say no. I think everyone's already given sufficient answers on why it's morally pretty bad. But then from a meta perspective we know that Branka uses the anvil for herself, rather than for Orzammar. So you basically lose the anvil either way, with the lovely addition of Branka kid napping victims for the anvil if you don't destroy it. Dwarf wardens also get the help of Ferelden's military to clear out parts of the deep roads, which is one of the factors in them being named Paragon.
Supposing that wasn't the case though... I'm not sure. The dwarves of Orzammar are a dying race. Many dwarves volunteered to become golems once, they would surely do so again if it was an option. I don't think it's as easy to dismiss as an option as many people are arguing.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 27, 2018 2:31:09 GMT
Recovering lost history is a noble goal, but not at the cost of people's lives and free will.
Also, Branka is a wack-a-doo and all-round awful person. I wouldn't trust her to make coffee, let alone an army of walking tanks.
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