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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 17, 2018 3:29:18 GMT
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Post by Kappa Neko on Jun 17, 2018 8:04:13 GMT
phoray My intention was not to derail this thread into something potentially unpleasant. I just responded to a comment that made my mind run off in a direction, pondering the statement in general. I used "tomboy" as a shorthand for a number of characteristics but it may not have been a good one... You have a valid counter argument!
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Post by Hier0phant on Jun 17, 2018 13:14:42 GMT
They should have included exercising minigames to increase Ellie's gains, allowing her to be even more brutal in combat.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jun 17, 2018 15:50:29 GMT
honestly, seems like this is getting close to one of those SJW hate discussions just more polite than I usually see them. A couple directions here. Let's take the tomboy out, and make her really girly. Like, carrying a doll, trying to find teen girl clothes and wearing them if she can get away with it, and being excited when they crash into a makeup store. And then she turned out to be a lesbian. Everybody would cry about how they made her a Super Fem Lesbian which can be a trope.
Another direction: how would any girl growing up in this world NOT meet the basic requirements of "tomboy" and still be ALIVE? Even if you were born and raised in a quarantine zone, there is rampant stealing, fighting, scrounging, going "outside" to scavenge, and murder by both the military and non military.
So in line with the lore, how could you have a female who wasn't a badass tomboy? What if Ellie would love to wear a pink dress and dance, but the last pink dress seen without a stain was ten years ago? Isn't everyone pretty much relegated to flannel and other cotton clothing products that haven't rotted in the last thirty years.
Then another direction: Why is Ellie a "tomboy" at all? Where are you even getting these implications? Because she can shoot a gun? because reasonable clothing? because no makeup?
I mean, I thought a lot of modern equality was about there being no difference between men and women other than the obvious physical differences? Men can like makeup (metrosexual, goth, emo), men are wearing pink (not just for Breast Awareness) 90% of the men I interact with neither own or know how to use a gun. Are they tomgirls? TLDR Ellie being a lesbian/bi is not a trope. I tried to distance my comment from the hate crowd, but I understand that there's not a lot I can say that isn't also said by that crowd to defend their nonsense, so I'll just say that's not what I intended. I don't really have any disagreement with anything else you said, other than Ellie not being cast in a trope. I'll also add this: if the main game had started with, or at some point established, Ellie's sexual orientation, I wouldn't have any criticism to make, regardless of what it might be. Personally, I assumed she was straight and was fist pumping how badass she was, but I was also aware that that was an assumption and the game decidedly left it ambiguous. But the DLC forced me to think about why they'd leave it ambiguous in the main game and then revealed, as a flashback, in the DLC, and thus thinking about what all that implied. All to say, it wasn't a kneejerk reaction. And another thing about the main game, they did a better counter-stereotype job with Bill, proving that they can do so and in the main game. Which contributed to my disappointment with how they handled Ellie via the DLC. I'm not saying there is cause and effect (e.g., that the response to Bill was so positive, they retconned Ellie into bi/lesbian to surf that wave), it's more a matter of them setting the bar pretty high with Bill and missing it with Ellie.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jun 17, 2018 16:13:30 GMT
Long video of TLoU2 panel discussion, but worth it for details about new technology used for combat and graphics. Plus, more hints about the story, setting and Joel.
They emphasized that what they showed was a demo, not the actual game. Whether or not the combat scene is part of the game or purely a showcase of the combat and graphics improvement isn't made clear. They did say the game starts at a different time/place than the demo starts.
The last 15 minutes or so is behind-the-scenes about "the kiss". They say stuff that suggests to me that Dina and Jessie aren't just throwaway characters, that they might be featured NPCs. This is further supported by the VA for Dina being Shannon Woodward, a fairly popular TV actress and currently playing a role in HBO's Westworld. You don't use talent of that caliber for one cutscene, unless it's a deliberate cameo. It also shows Woodward is a fangirl for the original TLoU and got the part through meeting a TLoU2 writer when he was writing for Westworld, lol.
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Post by phoray on Jun 17, 2018 16:21:43 GMT
PapaCharlie9 I never played Left Behind. I only played base game. I got hints of Ellie's bisexuality from two different scenes. How she handled the rapist creep when she was in the Cell, but definitely when she tells Joel at the end of the game about her "Friend". Ellie, the girl who can't shut up, didn't mention her bestie dying when she got bit until a whole year later? That means it was the sort of secret that's too close, too personal, to share, even with someone you trust. That means romantic love was involved. Additionally, that whole "Poetic death" thing screamed romeo and Juliet to me. Another thing that normal besties wouldn't do. Then when people started talking about the E3 LoUII trailer and Ellie being revealed to be bi/les, I went, "Wow! I nailed that! cool!" So it's not a retcon. It was there all along. It was just subtle.
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Post by bshep on Jun 17, 2018 17:12:14 GMT
Last of Us DLC made it pretty clear. Instead of just hints here and there they showed a kiss. Anyone crying surprise at the E3 gameplay trailer is doing it out of malice or ignorance of anything related to LoU.
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Post by erikson on Jun 17, 2018 17:32:03 GMT
Last of Us DLC made it pretty clear. Instead of just hints here and there they showed a kiss. Anyone crying surprise at the E3 gameplay trailer is doing it out of malice or ignorance of anything related to LoU. My guess is about 99.9% malice. The other .01% Just walked into E3 randomly off the street.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jun 17, 2018 17:49:42 GMT
PapaCharlie9 I never played Left Behind. I only played base game. I got hints of Ellie's bisexuality from two different scenes. How she handled the rapist creep when she was in the Cell, but definitely when she tells Joel at the end of the game about her "Friend". Ellie, the girl who can't shut up, didn't mention her bestie dying when she got bit until a whole year later? That means it was the sort of secret that's too close, too personal, to share, even with someone you trust. That means romantic love was involved. Additionally, that whole "Poetic death" thing screamed romeo and Juliet to me. Another thing that normal besties wouldn't do. Then when people started talking about the E3 LoUII trailer and Ellie being revealed to be bi/les, I went, "Wow! I nailed that! cool!" So it's not a retcon. It was there all along. It was just subtle. You're more perceptive than me, then. I took the whole secret about the friend being more about how painful it was how they died, in part because of something Ellie did or didn't do, which too was confirmed in the DLC. More about guilt than sex. Ellie, "the girl who can't shut up," I took to be cover -- I mean, a lot of her chatter was about everything except her internal self and her past. Fill the space with noise so Joel doesn't think to ask, kind of thing. Not sure which part you mean by the rapist creep in the Cell. You mean David and the cannibals? Breaking his finger by pretending to return his coming on to her? Yeah, I did not read any sexual orientation into that at all. But, badass, nonetheless.
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Post by phoray on Jun 17, 2018 18:00:32 GMT
Not sure which part you mean by the rapist creep in the Cell. You mean David and the cannibals? Breaking his finger by pretending to return his coming on to her? Yeah, I did not read any sexual orientation into that at all. But, badass, nonetheless. I didn't think that would have been a normal (not heteronormative, normal in the sense of Non Apocalypse Normal) straight girl's reaction, it certainly wouldn't have been mine. But I wasn't raised in this world. When it was confirmed for me on the boards that she was Bi/les, I looked back on that moment near immediately as Someone who was used to rejecting male attention would do that. Maybe as a young female in this world, lots of creepy dudes are being pedo towards you or maybe you find men sexually repulsive because you're not into men. I think my reaction would have been to play along, maybe even inevitably get raped once (or push the Coy card hard), then steal the keys and escape. Not as bad ass, but I think more realistic. ?? Of course, my perspective is all based on hypothetical. I'm not in that world, I'm not Ellie, I just think her stronger than usual reaction and complete refusal to play along for more than 5 seconds points to someone who prefers woman very strongly to men.
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Post by erikson on Jun 17, 2018 18:45:45 GMT
Not sure which part you mean by the rapist creep in the Cell. You mean David and the cannibals? Breaking his finger by pretending to return his coming on to her? Yeah, I did not read any sexual orientation into that at all. But, badass, nonetheless. I didn't think that would have been a normal (not heteronormative, normal in the sense of Non Apocalypse Normal) straight girl's reaction, it certainly wouldn't have been mine. But I wasn't raised in this world. When it was confirmed for me on the boards that she was Bi/les, I looked back on that moment near immediately as Someone who was used to rejecting male attention would do that. Maybe as a young female in this world, lots of creepy dudes are being pedo towards you or maybe you find men sexually repulsive because you're not into men. I think my reaction would have been to play along, maybe even inevitably get raped once (or push the Coy card hard), then steal the keys and escape. Not as bad ass, but I think more realistic. ?? Of course, my perspective is all based on hypothetical. I'm not in that world, I'm not Ellie, I just think her stronger than usual reaction and complete refusal to play along for more than 5 seconds points to someone who prefers woman very strongly to men. Like I've said elsewhere, none of the women in LOU occupy traditional roles. As far as we can tell Tess is entirely hetero and she is maybe even more brutal than Joel. Also remember, Ellie was raised as a child soldier, she was never really a little girl (which is evident when she is going through all of the girl's stuff in that house near Tommy's camp). In the case of David, he's not just a creepy pedo, but also a cannibal (she knows it at that point). If anything I find the scene where she pilfers Bill's gay porn to be more indicative of her sexuality. As a pubescent girl she makes fun of it and then throws it away, not showing any interest in the images themselves.
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Post by Sifr on Jun 19, 2018 20:19:42 GMT
phoray My intention was not to derail this thread into something potentially unpleasant. I just responded to a comment that made my mind run off in a direction, pondering the statement in general. I used "tomboy" as a shorthand for a number of characteristics but it may not have been a good one... You have a valid counter argument! Same, I hope people didn't think my post was being critical of Ellie for being portrayed as a tomboy and a member of the LGBT community.
I was only noting the sheer oddity of some people seeming to assume that "tomboys" (real or fictional) must part of the LGBT community, rather than women who enjoy activities more "traditionally" associated with men? As if any girl who wants to wear male clothing and kick a football around in the dirt has any bearing on her sexuality?
My post was being critical of people who make that inference and act like this is a trope, when it shouldn't be.
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Post by clips7 on Jun 20, 2018 3:34:57 GMT
Probably would be no complaints if Ellie and that chick was portrayed as this..... I think it works both ways.....some are saying because she was tomboyish that there was no way a heterosexual girl could be that way or they need saving ...likewise before the image movement, most lesbians were seen as being sexy vixens like the characters in this game...stylized yes, but it was what folks i'm sure would have no issue with. Now i say that with them being modeled in terms of looks and transfer it to "The Last of Us 2".....of course without the makeup,...etc, etc, but still keeping them with a flair of sex appeal. Lesbians as it is trending now is seen as more females that look like Ellie, but wearing flannel shirts and the like....is this being stereotypical as well? I guess what i'm getting at is that if Ellie was modeled after characters in the Fear Effect games, i think there would have been some outrage or kickback over how these women were imaged and not represent how true women look....All i'm saying is that because this is zombie apocalypse doesn't mean everybody or every female character has to look like y'know they could be bi or otherwise...the first trailer of the Last of Us 2, that starred who many believe to be Ellie's mother had this theme showcased too Y'know how there can probably be that one chick that looks fine as hell in just t-shirt and jeans? those characters can exist as well in this universe....just saying.....having said all of that i would just prefer a great story that doesn't seem like it's checking off a list for a particular group. Ellie's sexuality seems to fit with the overall story and this was just a small cut-scene from the game itself....folks that are complaining about this don't know the full plot of the game which seems to be focusing on Ellie's revenge on these religious radicals that are within the game itself...
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