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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 4, 2019 16:19:19 GMT
Tranquility shouldn’t be used as a punishment, but it absolutely should be available as an option for those who want it like Orana in the Codex entry I posted earlier. Why should her life be an everlasting hell when there is a way for her to avoid that? As I said, if you accept the premise that having ultimate power over other human beings is inherently and irresistibly corrupting, which I do, then leaving yourself in a position to be taken advantage of so easily and thoroughly is a decision that affects more than just yourself. You're either putting it on everyone around you to essentially parent you for the rest of your life, or engendering yourself as subhuman and a second-class citizen whom it's more okay to hurt and abuse than the average person because you "don't really feel it", which is a terrible and dangerous message to be sending to anyone. And as long as it's a thing, Templars will definitely be tempted to use it as punishment. It's just a terrifying and disgusting and messed-up thing to do that makes everyone uncomfortable, and Thedas isn't anywhere near ready to have something like a Tranquil population without it immediately descending into slave labor. And things would most likely be a lot more amicable between templars and mages if it wasn't on the table, which plays into keeping the world safe from escalating magical disasters. Meanwhile I find it terrifying and disgusting and messed up that people would allow others to suffer based on nothing but simple what ifs. As for how you described it, I see it as no different than the facilities we have that take care of people who can't take care of themselves like for example those with various medical conditions. While I won't deny that abuses never occur there, because sadly even in utopias there is always the chance someone will embrace that part of their nature, they are very much a rarity and overall those places do nothing but good things for those they care for. Now, is there ways that this could be handled to mitigate the abuse of it? Sure, and I support that. For example don't allow the Templars access to it and instead just the First Enchanter, and even then they can only use it if the person wants to become Tranquil and after a discussion with a sort of council of the head mages there. That would remove the temptation from the Templars as well as the hate they get for it from the mages. And once the person is Tranquil, depending on how people receive it maybe have them live in a separate place than the rest of the mages and Templars, like maybe a commune or something watched over by some Chantry sisters. But anyway, this discussion seems to have been taking over the actual topic so maybe it's best to stop here.
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Post by Noxluxe on Dec 4, 2019 18:39:09 GMT
Meanwhile I find it terrifying and disgusting and messed up that people would allow others to suffer based on nothing but simple what ifs. As for how you described it, I see it as no different than the facilities we have that take care of people who can't take care of themselves like for example those with various medical conditions. While I won't deny that abuses never occur there, because sadly even in utopias there is always the chance someone will embrace that part of their nature, they are very much a rarity and overall those places do nothing but good things for those they care for. Now, is there ways that this could be handled to mitigate the abuse of it? Sure, and I support that. For example don't allow the Templars access to it and instead just the First Enchanter, and even then they can only use it if the person wants to become Tranquil and after a discussion with a sort of council of the head mages there. That would remove the temptation from the Templars as well as the hate they get for it from the mages. And once the person is Tranquil, depending on how people receive it maybe have them live in a separate place than the rest of the mages and Templars, like maybe a commune or something watched over by some Chantry sisters. But anyway, this discussion seems to have been taking over the actual topic so maybe it's best to stop here. The problem is that no country in Thedas is anywhere near advanced enough either socially or philosophically to have something like a respectable and ethically run publicly funded home for the infirm or damaged the way you're talking about. Again, the current Chantry's approach to "Tranquil mage care" is using them for free labor the world over, and nobody else is making a fuss over it.And while people who are born sufficiently disadvantaged or are hurt in some way having access to that sort of refuge is a kind and merciful thing, the logic of someone choosing to make themselves infirm and spend the rest of their lives being diligently watched over by others isn't as clear-cut. Which is one of the reasons you can't just go to your doctor and request a lobotomy no matter how painful you feel life is.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 5, 2019 5:34:47 GMT
Meanwhile I find it terrifying and disgusting and messed up that people would allow others to suffer based on nothing but simple what ifs. As for how you described it, I see it as no different than the facilities we have that take care of people who can't take care of themselves like for example those with various medical conditions. While I won't deny that abuses never occur there, because sadly even in utopias there is always the chance someone will embrace that part of their nature, they are very much a rarity and overall those places do nothing but good things for those they care for. Now, is there ways that this could be handled to mitigate the abuse of it? Sure, and I support that. For example don't allow the Templars access to it and instead just the First Enchanter, and even then they can only use it if the person wants to become Tranquil and after a discussion with a sort of council of the head mages there. That would remove the temptation from the Templars as well as the hate they get for it from the mages. And once the person is Tranquil, depending on how people receive it maybe have them live in a separate place than the rest of the mages and Templars, like maybe a commune or something watched over by some Chantry sisters. But anyway, this discussion seems to have been taking over the actual topic so maybe it's best to stop here. The problem is that no country in Thedas is anywhere near advanced enough either socially or philosophically to have something like a respectable and ethically run publicly funded home for the infirm or damaged the way you're talking about. Again, the current Chantry's approach to "Tranquil mage care" is using them for free labor the world over, and nobody else is making a fuss over it.And while people who are born sufficiently disadvantaged or are hurt in some way having access to that sort of refuge is a kind and merciful thing, the logic of someone choosing to make themselves infirm and spend the rest of their lives being diligently watched over by others isn't as clear-cut. Which is one of the reasons you can't just go to your doctor and request a lobotomy no matter how painful you feel life is. We'll have to agree to disagree, though I do appreciate the civil discussion.
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Post by Mithras on Dec 5, 2019 22:42:43 GMT
In a circle you are told constantly how much of a monster you are for being born a mage, that no one can trust you, etc. That inherently increases the risk factors for possession and instability, not decreases it. A mage is more in danger of magical and moral corruption in a circle than anywhere else in Thedas. Seriously?
I mean, look, I'm not going to say that the Circle is perfect. I certainly don't think that it's as bad as some people try to make it out to be, but realizing that the people you were recently a part of do not trust you enough to live among them and never will has to hurt. With that being said, Danarius cut open a child for a party trick! Is THAT not moral corruption a thousand times worse than anything the Circle ever did? Are you seriously going to tell me that you'd feel safer around a mage who has been taught all his life that he is "superior" and has the right to do whatever he wants with his "inferiors", the mundanes than one who has been taught that his magic is both a gift and a curse that needs to be handled responsibly for the good of everyone?
Are you suggesting that people in Quarantine have never felt safe while in it?
Mages have the right to own personal property and wealth (see the Lucrosians), they have the right to freely gather with those like minded (see the Fraternities) and to appoint representatives to defend their rights (see the First Enchanters). They also possess rights that must be respected by the ruling body of society (no mage who has passed his Harrowing may be made Tranquil) and they also have the right to refuse to service if they so choose (see the Circle refusing to support Loghain). That's not slavery, it's quarantine. At worst, segregation. Sure, it's not ideal but it sure as hell isn't slavery.
Two lines in an epilogue which Bioware promptly backtracked by making it so that both the Circle and the College always exist in Southern Thedas.
The mages in Tevinter, Rivain, Dalish and the Avvar are their own watchers and low and behold IT. DOESN'T. WORK.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 5, 2019 23:01:08 GMT
Mithras You speak about Danarius, I can speak about Karras and Alrik, Meredith. They're not better. The ones who use Tranquility "as mercy" are not better than a blood mage who destroys the mind with blood magic. Also: the official thing is that the magic is a curse and a gift. The Circles as prisons say the magic is a curse – the whole practice is an accusation. Not quarantine – prison. And slavery. The Lucrosians don't able to gather property. This is their a goal. Like the Libertarians aren't free. This is their goal. The mages aren't able to keep their children: like a property, the Chantry takes them away from their mage parents. Like a master, or worse. Also, like a master their slaves – the Circles "sold" people to the other Circle. No matter the mage consent or not. Like the masters sold their slaves, no matter they have family or not...
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Post by sageoflife on Dec 5, 2019 23:03:22 GMT
All of a mage's "rights" are subject to the whims of the Templars.
Meredith was Tranquilizing Harrowed mages for the better part of a decade and no one did a thing about it. Mages were unilaterally stripped of their rights to assemble and send representatives in response to a crime committed by a known apostate. Legally speaking, they are not "rights" if they are so easily ignored and stripped like that.
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Post by Mithras on Dec 5, 2019 23:13:25 GMT
All of a mage's "rights" are subject to the whims of the Templars. Meredith was Tranquilizing Harrowed mages for the better part of a decade and no one did a thing about it. Mages were unilaterally stripped of their rights to assemble and send representatives in response to a crime committed by a known apostate. Legally speaking, they are not "rights" if they are so easily ignored and stripped like that. Just as your rights are subject to the whims of the police. The existence of corrupt law enforcement authorities does not mean that your rights are any less enshrined in law, it just means that there are corrupt law enforcement authorities. Mages are in no more danger of being abused by a Templar than a normal person is of being abused by a guardsman.
Also, I will point out to this letter by Ser Alrik which is acquired from the bodies of one of the Templars who used Karl as bait which indicates that Meredith actually had no idea he was illegally performing Tranquilities.
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Post by sageoflife on Dec 5, 2019 23:21:55 GMT
All of a mage's "rights" are subject to the whims of the Templars. Meredith was Tranquilizing Harrowed mages for the better part of a decade and no one did a thing about it. Mages were unilaterally stripped of their rights to assemble and send representatives in response to a crime committed by a known apostate. Legally speaking, they are not "rights" if they are so easily ignored and stripped like that. Just as your rights are subject to the whims of the police. The existence of corrupt law enforcement authorities does not mean that your rights are any less enshrined in law, it just means that there are corrupt law enforcement authorities. Mages are in no more danger of being abused by a Templar than a normal person is of being abused by a guardsman.
Also, I will point out to this letter by Ser Alrik which is acquired from the bodies of one of the Templars who used Karl as bait which indicates that Meredith actually had no idea he was illegally performing Tranquilities.
Meredith herself was illegally ordering Tranquilizations. Cullen directly states this in Inquisition, and the example he cites occurred years before Meredith got the red lyrium idol. And even if every illegal Tranquilization did occur without Meredith's knowledge, her refusal to put a stop to the practice or punish the Templars who are violating the laws she is meant to enforce represents a gross failure of leadership on her part. No, our rights are not subject to the whims of the police. They are subject to the legislature and the constitution. The Seekers are the ones who "grant" mages their "rights", and they are the ones that take away those "rights" if the mages get uppity. There is no higher power like a legislature or a constitution that they have to answer to.
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Post by Mithras on Dec 5, 2019 23:25:50 GMT
The Lucrosians don't able to gather property. This is their a goal. World of Thedas Volume 2, page 176
"Your pious outrage might earn you some approval with your knight-lieutenant, but I beg you to join the rest of us in the real world, lad. Do you have any idea just how wealthy the Circle of Magi can be? The amount of gold the nobility pays for enchanted goods would overflow a well. Many mages – particularly Lucrosians –are from good families, used to entertainments and the finer things in life…and Maker knows they can afford them. So why shouldn’t they indulge a little? "
Lol, this "point" in particular is really funny to me. Do you have an inkling of a notion of how regularly medieval states relocated whole portions of their population when they felt the need, such as to repopulate reconquered pieces of land?
And these were normal peasants, not gateways to Hell like the mages are.
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Post by Mithras on Dec 5, 2019 23:30:43 GMT
Meredith herself was illegally ordering Tranquilizations. Cullen directly states this in Inquisition, and the example he cites occurred years before Meredith got the red lyrium idol. I don't recall this piece of dialogue. Could you please quote it?
Agreed.
If a corrupt cop breaks into your home and decides to shoot you, the Constitution isn't going to magically form a shield in front of you to stop the bullet. In that situation, your right to life is entirely dependent upon the whims of the man with the gun.
The Seekers and Templars answer to the Chantry and it is Chantry law that assures certain rights to Circle Mages. Just because some Templars prove corrupt and abuse their charges, it doesn't mean that those laws don't exist or are any less valid. It just means that some Templars are corrupt.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 5, 2019 23:38:24 GMT
The Lucrosians don't able to gather property. This is their a goal. World of Thedas Volume 2, page 176
"Your pious outrage might earn you some approval with your knight-lieutenant, but I beg you to join the rest of us in the real world, lad. Do you have any idea just how wealthy the Circle of Magi can be? The amount of gold the nobility pays for enchanted goods would overflow a well. Many mages – particularly Lucrosians –are from good families, used to entertainments and the finer things in life…and Maker knows they can afford them. So why shouldn’t they indulge a little? " Lol, this "point" in particular is really funny to me. Do you have an inkling of a notion of how regularly medieval states relocated whole portions of their population when they felt the need, such as to repopulate reconquered pieces of land? And these were normal peasants, not gateways to Hell like the mages are. You know, someone in the prisons also rich – there are exceptions always existed. And what they can have? Golden spoon? They have nothing while they're in a prison. Luxury slaves also exist. Whole population, yes, with family. And also rebellions always happened. I wouldn't question their right. Also: the bad fate of the peasants justify to sell people? To tear apart families? Lovers? Children from parents?
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Post by sageoflife on Dec 5, 2019 23:39:46 GMT
Look up Maddox on the series wiki. Long story short, he was exchanging love letters with a Templar using another Templar as a willing intermediary. Despite being Harrowed, Maddox was made Tranquil under the charge of "corrupting the moral integrity of a Templar." This same incident is also what led to Samson's expulsion from the Order, which is why we know that it occurred before the discovery of the red lyrium idol. Cullen also states that Meredith has committed even more egregious abuses of the Rite.
If a corrupt cop breaks into my home and shoots me, the legislature and the constitution carry mandates for how he should be punished. It is the Seekers that create mandates for templar conduct and mage "rights", and it is the Seekers who change those mandates whenever it suits them. Cassandra admits that in practice the Seekers never answered to anyone but themselves. When they Chantry tried to get them to follow their own rules in how mages should be treated, the Seekers threw a fit and dissolved the agreement that bound them to the Chantry.
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Post by Mithras on Dec 6, 2019 0:01:28 GMT
Look up Maddox on the series wiki. Long story short, he was exchanging love letters with a Templar using another Templar as a willing intermediary. Despite being Harrowed, Maddox was made Tranquil under the charge of "corrupting the moral integrity of a Templar." This same incident is also what led to Samson's expulsion from the Order, which is why we know that it occurred before the discovery of the red lyrium idol. Cullen also states that Meredith has committed even more egregious abuses of the Rite. I know who Maddox is but I don't recall any mention of him having passed his Harrowing (not that that wouldn't make his Tranquility right, mind you). The point still stands, the fact that what Meredith was doing is considered illegal, means that the law exists.
So does Chantry law.
Where are you getting this from? Literally everything we know about Thedas tells us that it's the Chantry who creates such mandates.
I'm not exactly an American historian but I'm pretty sure the same could be said of the FBI. That doesn't the Constitution doesn't exist. It means that secretive organizations tend towards independence.
That's not what happened at all. The Chantry and the Seekers agreed to allow for a Conclave where the First Enchanters would discuss the implications of Pharamond's research. As soon as it began, Fiona perverted the intent of the meeting by turning it into a vote on world war 3. When the Seekers got wind of this, they (rightfully) ordered that the meeting be dispersed and that Rhys be placed in their custody for murdering Pharamond. The mages refused which led to a fight which led to deaths. Then Justinia went behind her own people's back to free those mages which led to yet more deaths of Templars merely doing their duty and that's when the Lord Seeker declared their independence.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 6, 2019 0:15:18 GMT
MithrasHow comfortable. Nobody cares about this law. 1. Did you see any Templar who was punished for such a thing? 2. The "law" is very flexible. Let the Templr-Commander justify the act. 3. See the first paragraph.
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Post by sageoflife on Dec 6, 2019 0:46:00 GMT
Look up Maddox on the series wiki. Long story short, he was exchanging love letters with a Templar using another Templar as a willing intermediary. Despite being Harrowed, Maddox was made Tranquil under the charge of "corrupting the moral integrity of a Templar." This same incident is also what led to Samson's expulsion from the Order, which is why we know that it occurred before the discovery of the red lyrium idol. Cullen also states that Meredith has committed even more egregious abuses of the Rite. I know who Maddox is but I don't recall any mention of him having passed his Harrowing (not that that wouldn't make his Tranquility right, mind you). The point still stands, the fact that what Meredith was doing is considered illegal, means that the law exists.
So does Chantry law.
Where are you getting this from? Literally everything we know about Thedas tells us that it's the Chantry who creates such mandates.
I'm not exactly an American historian but I'm pretty sure the same could be said of the FBI. That doesn't the Constitution doesn't exist. It means that secretive organizations tend towards independence.
That's not what happened at all. The Chantry and the Seekers agreed to allow for a Conclave where the First Enchanters would discuss the implications of Pharamond's research. As soon as it began, Fiona perverted the intent of the meeting by turning it into a vote on world war 3. When the Seekers got wind of this, they (rightfully) ordered that the meeting be dispersed and that Rhys be placed in their custody for murdering Pharamond. The mages refused which led to a fight which led to deaths. Then Justinia went behind her own people's back to free those mages which led to yet more deaths of Templars merely doing their duty and that's when the Lord Seeker declared their independence.
A law that no one is enforcing is meaningless. In response to a crime committed by a known apostate, the Seekers stripped the mages of their right to assemble. The mages did not turn violent until the Templars killed a mage who was attempting to surrender. The Seekers intended to make every First Enchanter Tranquil, in violation of their own laws. Justinia went behind the Seekers' backs because they were out of control and at every point were the ones who drew first blood.
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Post by Mithras on Dec 6, 2019 20:51:48 GMT
A law that no one is enforcing is meaningless. Even in Kirkwall, Karras felt that he had to hide his crimes, implying that even for Meredith, there were limits to what she was likely to tolerate. Furthermore, we shouldn't judge every Circle for the standards of Kirkwall's. Everyone agrees that nothing was normal in that place.
Templars cracked down in response to increased violence and calls for independence in an attempt to avert disasters. The United States government has also declared martial law numerous times without this leading to the rights that it assures its citizens becoming irrelevant. The very moment they show some leniency by allowing the conclave, the Grand Enchanter herself calls for war. What exactly were they supposed to do?
Also, that first death was an accident. The text clearly states that the Templar had expected the mage to defend herself. Plus, I'm going to need a citation that Lord Seeker Lambert intended to make every First Enchanter Tranquil.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 6, 2019 21:17:06 GMT
A law that no one is enforcing is meaningless. Even in Kirkwall, Karras felt that he had to hide his crimes, implying that even for Meredith, there were limits to what she was likely to tolerate. Furthermore, we shouldn't judge every Circle for the standards of Kirkwall's. Everyone agrees that nothing was normal in that place.
Templars cracked down in response to increased violence and calls for independence in an attempt to avert disasters. The United States government has also declared martial law numerous times without this leading to the rights that it assures its citizens becoming irrelevant. The very moment they show some leniency by allowing the conclave, the Grand Enchanter herself calls for war. What exactly were they supposed to do?
Also, that first death was an accident. The text clearly states that the Templar had expected the mage to defend herself. Plus, I'm going to need a citation that Lord Seeker Lambert intended to make every First Enchanter Tranquil. ...Only Bethany was that idiot/mazochist, who LOVED that place... Oh yes... I'm sure, she did.
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Post by sageoflife on Dec 7, 2019 0:49:32 GMT
A law that no one is enforcing is meaningless. Even in Kirkwall, Karras felt that he had to hide his crimes, implying that even for Meredith, there were limits to what she was likely to tolerate. Furthermore, we shouldn't judge every Circle for the standards of Kirkwall's. Everyone agrees that nothing was normal in that place.
Templars cracked down in response to increased violence and calls for independence in an attempt to avert disasters. The United States government has also declared martial law numerous times without this leading to the rights that it assures its citizens becoming irrelevant. The very moment they show some leniency by allowing the conclave, the Grand Enchanter herself calls for war. What exactly were they supposed to do?
Also, that first death was an accident. The text clearly states that the Templar had expected the mage to defend herself. Plus, I'm going to need a citation that Lord Seeker Lambert intended to make every First Enchanter Tranquil.
Alrik and Karras didn't seem to be trying all that hard to hide their crimes, especially when Meredith was blatantly committing similar crimes herself. Besides that, Kirkwall wasn't as much of an outlier as people like to claim. Cole describes very similar events happening in the White Spire. The violence and calls for independence were in direct response to an egregious crime committed by the Templar Order. Instead of considering that the mages were justified in being outraged, the Templars doubled down and effectively punished all mages everywhere for the crimes of a single apostate, stripping them of many of their rights solely because they had the audacity to be angry about the crimes committed by those who are supposedly protecting them from the rest of the world. This idea that mages simply aren't allowed to be angry over their treatment is similar to how in the antebellum south it was considered a mental illness for a slave to desire to escape. What were the Templars supposed to do? THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO OBEY THEIR OWN LAWS. What exactly were the mages supposed to do? All of their attempts to handle things peacefully were shut down, and they found themselves being collectively punished for a crime they did not commit. Were they supposed to just roll over and do whatever the Templars demanded, regardless of the mages' rights? If so, then that is just another reason why Circle mages should be considered slaves, if all of their supposed means of advocating for themselves and their rights can just be taken away on a whim. So the mages are not supposed to react to one of their own being killed, but it's fine for Templars to punish all mages, even invoking the Right of Annulment, for a crime that the Circle of Magi did not commit. This double standard in how mages and Templars are expected to conduct themselves is one of the core problems of the system as it existed prior to the rebellion. And lets not forget that Lambert was in defiance of Justinia's orders when he ordered the Templars to attack. I may have been mistaken about Lambert wanting to Tranquilize all of the First Enchanters, but wanting to execute them all for actions they made in self-defense after he drew first blood is hardly an improvement.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 7, 2019 18:20:29 GMT
Also, that first death was an accident. The text clearly states that the Templar had expected the mage to defend herself. Eh, I’m going to have to disagree with you. Sure I get why they attacked, but like a cop killing someone they thought was going for a gun when they weren’t it’s not really excusable since they should have had better judgement or done something besides going for the kill.
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Post by Mithras on Dec 7, 2019 20:55:19 GMT
Alrik and Karras didn't seem to be trying all that hard to hide their crimes, especially when Meredith was blatantly committing similar crimes herself. Besides that, Kirkwall wasn't as much of an outlier as people like to claim. Cole describes very similar events happening in the White Spire. Any community will have accidents but Alain himself tells us that Kirkwall was far worse than anything that happened at Starkhaven
Why did the mages have to do anything at all? Meredith committed terrible crimes but she paid for it with her life as did Orsino and (possibly) Anders. The people responsible for the mess in Kirkwall are all dead, there's nothing to be done. Outrage is understandable, violence (such as the attempted assassination of the Divine) is not. And if some attempt to use these events in order to justify the end of the Circle, then I ask again, what exactly are the Templars supposed to do that situation? Let it happen?
"Oh, ok, I guess we'll just go on our merry way. Please don't become Abominations or Magisters, alright?"
I challenge you to find a single one of my posts where I said anything approximating that. No, what Meredith did wasn't right. Kirkwall's Circle needed some thorough investigation (I mean, bloody hell, the First Enchanter had been pen pals with a blood mage) but Annulment was going too far. So was Fiona. He was provoked by her and Adrian.
Does the book state that he intended to execute them all? I honestly don't recall. I suppose it's possible but I'd still like evidence.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 7, 2019 21:01:43 GMT
Does the book state that he intended to execute them all? I honestly don't recall. I suppose it's possible but I'd still like evidence. It does. He accuses them of treason, ordering them to surrender or be executed. He also threatens to execute them all if Rhys doesn’t confess to the murder of Pharamond, but will spare them if he does.
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Post by sageoflife on Dec 7, 2019 21:46:27 GMT
Alrik and Karras didn't seem to be trying all that hard to hide their crimes, especially when Meredith was blatantly committing similar crimes herself. Besides that, Kirkwall wasn't as much of an outlier as people like to claim. Cole describes very similar events happening in the White Spire. Any community will have accidents but Alain himself tells us that Kirkwall was far worse than anything that happened at Starkhaven
Why did the mages have to do anything at all? Meredith committed terrible crimes but she paid for it with her life as did Orsino and (possibly) Anders. The people responsible for the mess in Kirkwall are all dead, there's nothing to be done. Outrage is understandable, violence (such as the attempted assassination of the Divine) is not. And if some attempt to use these events in order to justify the end of the Circle, then I ask again, what exactly are the Templars supposed to do that situation? Let it happen?
"Oh, ok, I guess we'll just go on our merry way. Please don't become Abominations or Magisters, alright?"
I challenge you to find a single one of my posts where I said anything approximating that. No, what Meredith did wasn't right. Kirkwall's Circle needed some thorough investigation (I mean, bloody hell, the First Enchanter had been pen pals with a blood mage) but Annulment was going too far. So was Fiona. He was provoked by her and Adrian.
Does the book state that he intended to execute them all? I honestly don't recall. I suppose it's possible but I'd still like evidence.
Right, so it's okay for the Templars to have "accidents", but not the mages. Just because Starkhaven was supposedly one of the better Circles doesn't mean that others like the White Spire weren't more similar to Kirkwall. The fact that Greagoir was considered overly permissive indicates that most Knight-Commanders were more similar to Meredith. Why did the Templars have to do anything at all? The first vote for independence failed. The mages showed that they were capable of resisting their first instinct. At that point the onus was on the Templars to show that they were willing to meet the mages halfway. Instead they followed Meredith's example and punished all mages in the Circle system for a crime they did not commit, which is what you have been defending this entire time. The Templars' response to the mages' entirely justifiable anger proved that none of them could be trusted. "Lambert was provoked by Fiona and Adrian." I see your logic of "two wrongs don't make a right" doesn't apply to the Templars. Only to the mages. Yes, the book does state that he intended to execute them all. For a conflict in which he drew first blood. It also states that he wanted to overthrow the Divine so the Chantry would install one that he could control.
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Post by Mithras on Dec 7, 2019 21:53:42 GMT
Does the book state that he intended to execute them all? I honestly don't recall. I suppose it's possible but I'd still like evidence. It does. He accuses them of treason, ordering them to surrender or be executed. He also threatens to execute them all if Rhys doesn’t confess to the murder of Pharamond, but will spare them if he does. Alright then. While I understand his desperation to avoid a rebellion that would cost; and did indeed cost; thousands of innocent lives as well as his fears of the rise of a second Imperium, I can't condone executing people just for attending a meeting where Fiona spoke of treason.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 7, 2019 22:17:03 GMT
By the way, Fiona didn't provoke anyone, in fact she was very patient.
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Post by Mithras on Dec 7, 2019 22:20:56 GMT
Right, so it's okay for the Templars to have "accidents", but not the mages. Never said that. Only that just because Cole saw a number of Templars abusing their charges, doesn't mean that the White Spire itself was.
There's a huge divide between Greagoir and Meredith where you could first every Knight Commander in Thedas and still have room. I'll remind you that the Knight Commander from whom Lord Seeker Lambert took command allowed Rhys to have contact with spirits for the sake of experiments.
Does this sound like a Meredith at all? But sure, something mistakes will happen. Cole is one sad example.
And were the mages offering an halfway? With the Grand Enchanter continuously demanding for independence, the Resolutionists engaging in terror acts, mages trying to assassinate the Divine, etc? I don't deny that martial law is a drastic action but it is not collective punishment, not like what Meredith did. It was simply an attempt to maintain order in the middle of a state of emergency.
I am open to suggestions on what else could have been done but I certainly don't think that a madman's; and indeed, a madwoman's; murderous actions justify uprooting an institution that has kept most of Thedas safe from magic for nine centuries.
I don't defend what Lambert did. I'm just pointing out that the mage's leadership was just as willing to take drastic actions as the Templar's. If Fiona had not pushed for a second vote...if Adrian had not murdered Pharamond...if Lambert hadn't ordered the attack...maybe the war could have been averted. Please see above.
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