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Post by Iddy on Jul 19, 2018 11:25:38 GMT
Saving the mages during Broken Circle and saving Amaranthine. In both cases, the chances of finding survivors supposedly are next to none.
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Post by Catilina on Jul 19, 2018 12:13:00 GMT
As a mage to save the Circle, is the logical + emotional decision. S/He know what the mages can do, and even that the Wardens need more mages against the Blight. Wynne strengthens that not everyone possessed. And the mages are his/her people. As a non-mage warden also have logical reasons if follows Wynne advices, and not absolutely fears the mages.
Amarantine also an interesting question, but if the Warden strengthened the Keep, there's not a reason to not try to search for survivors. Even if not sure about the Keep: the people in the Keep are soldiers, their duty to protect the people. So, I see reason to save Amarantine.
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Post by mousestalker on Jul 19, 2018 13:05:26 GMT
Also, just 'cause Greagoir says something does not mean that it is true. He and the templars at the front entrance ran for it. He is justifying his decision to abandon the tower to himself by saying no one could possibly have survived.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jul 19, 2018 13:38:05 GMT
Saving the mages during Broken Circle and saving Amaranthine. In both cases, the chances of finding survivors supposedly are next to none. At least in the second case, finding survivors isn't the only issue. Burning Amaranthine is represented as destroying all the people and all the darkspawn in it, but metagaming aside, how do we know it's going to work like that? Fires are a nightmare to deal with in urban settings at this technology level, but they don't completely wipe out all life in the city. Especially not when there's a tunnel under the walls that can be used to flee.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jul 19, 2018 14:15:48 GMT
I base my decisions primarily on what I consider to be morally right, anyway.
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Post by boxofscreaming on Jul 19, 2018 17:08:51 GMT
Well, saving the mages doesn't really involve doing much different - I'm going up the tower anyway.
As for Amaranthine, it's my Arling, I'm not going to let the capital city fall to Darkspawn, however few survivors there are.
In both cases though, I didn't have much faith in the people telling me it wasn't worth it.
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Post by warden on Jul 21, 2018 19:00:21 GMT
you have to go through the circle tower anyway so, to be honest the "good" decision is up to you, there is no good or bad decision, that's what grey is about, if you go with a simple black and white mindset, you won't find any answer that can satisfy you, because decisions aren't that simple to make.
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Post by melbella on Jul 21, 2018 19:42:31 GMT
Saving the mages during Broken Circle and saving Amaranthine. In both cases, the chances of finding survivors supposedly are next to none. At least in the second case, finding survivors isn't the only issue. Burning Amaranthine is represented as destroying all the people and all the darkspawn in it, but metagaming aside, how do we know it's going to work like that? Fires are a nightmare to deal with in urban settings at this technology level, but they don't completely wipe out all life in the city. Especially not when there's a tunnel under the walls that can be used to flee. Burning the city is also more likely to kill people than darkspawn because the latter will just crawl back into their tunnels to escape. The people can't do that. Better for the people to hide indoors and let the Wardens kill the darkspawn the old-fashioned way.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2018 22:17:16 GMT
Depends on my Origin. My Cousland and Aeducan had no reason not to believe the Templars. Cousland grew up with Templars controlling mages as the norm, and Aeducan just thought magic was super weird and dangerous. When Greagoir tells them that they could be abominations and there was no way to tell if they weren't, they had no reason not to believe him. If they were abominations they'd plead their innocence, if they weren't they'd plead their innocence too, so best to trust those who know. Both annulled the Circle knowing it was the right choice. Cousland had nightmares about it and mourned the dead, Aeducan didn't give a damn because she was saving the rest of the world.
Honestly it takes some metagaming for me not to annul the Circle. A badass elf and a mage from the tower who thought he knew better saved the mages in my worlds, but they both had magical experience.
I think it's too easy to look at the mages from a 21st Century point of view and with knowing the rest of the game, but if you approach it from a human or dwarven perspective everything looks quite different.
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Post by boxofscreaming on Jul 22, 2018 2:28:30 GMT
Depends on my Origin. My Cousland and Aeducan had no reason not to believe the Templars. Cousland grew up with Templars controlling mages as the norm, and Aeducan just thought magic was super weird and dangerous. When Greagoir tells them that they could be abominations and there was no way to tell if they weren't, they had no reason not to believe him. If they were abominations they'd plead their innocence, if they weren't they'd plead their innocence too, so best to trust those who know. Both annulled the Circle knowing it was the right choice. Cousland had nightmares about it and mourned the dead, Aeducan didn't give a damn because she was saving the rest of the world. Honestly it takes some metagaming for me not to annul the Circle. A badass elf and a mage from the tower who thought he knew better saved the mages in my worlds, but they both had magical experience. I think it's too easy to look at the mages from a 21st Century point of view and with knowing the rest of the game, but if you approach it from a human or dwarven perspective everything looks quite different. I always figured dwarves aren't afraid of magic. Bounces right off 'em. That's what Morrigan says anyway!
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jul 22, 2018 2:54:05 GMT
I base my decisions primarily on what I consider to be morally right, anyway. Well, nobody's saying that Annuling the Circle and burning Amaranthine are morally right. We're just asking whether they're entirely unwise without metagame knowledge.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2018 9:14:47 GMT
Depends on my Origin. My Cousland and Aeducan had no reason not to believe the Templars. Cousland grew up with Templars controlling mages as the norm, and Aeducan just thought magic was super weird and dangerous. When Greagoir tells them that they could be abominations and there was no way to tell if they weren't, they had no reason not to believe him. If they were abominations they'd plead their innocence, if they weren't they'd plead their innocence too, so best to trust those who know. Both annulled the Circle knowing it was the right choice. Cousland had nightmares about it and mourned the dead, Aeducan didn't give a damn because she was saving the rest of the world. Honestly it takes some metagaming for me not to annul the Circle. A badass elf and a mage from the tower who thought he knew better saved the mages in my worlds, but they both had magical experience. I think it's too easy to look at the mages from a 21st Century point of view and with knowing the rest of the game, but if you approach it from a human or dwarven perspective everything looks quite different. I always figured dwarves aren't afraid of magic. Bounces right off 'em. That's what Morrigan says anyway! Hah! Nah, my dwarf was definitely magicphobic. She liked hitting things and you can't hit a spell.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jul 22, 2018 9:49:09 GMT
I base my decisions primarily on what I consider to be morally right, anyway. Well, nobody's saying that Annuling the Circle and burning Amaranthine are morally right. We're just asking whether they're entirely unwise without metagame knowledge. Well that depends on your priorities? Nearly all your options in Dragon Age "unwise", because no matter what path you take, the risk of death is high.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jul 22, 2018 10:27:02 GMT
Well, nobody's saying that Annuling the Circle and burning Amaranthine are morally right. We're just asking whether they're entirely unwise without metagame knowledge. Well that depends on your priorities? Nearly all your options in Dragon Age "unwise", because no matter what path you take, the risk of death is high. Wouldn't a wise character's priorities be to minimize the risk of death to themselves or others, in a situation like that?
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jul 22, 2018 11:40:28 GMT
Well that depends on your priorities? Nearly all your options in Dragon Age "unwise", because no matter what path you take, the risk of death is high. Wouldn't a wise character's priorities be to minimize the risk of death to themselves or others, in a situation like that? Yes, but then there's equally compelling arguments to be made for both sides. Personally, I'd argue that unnecessarily killing or allowing people to die is unwise, and I'd still save the mages and Amaranthine. You have to clear the Circle of demons and blood mages anyway, so killing people who don't need to be killed is just making extra work for yourself, and if you've upgraded the keep in Awakening (which you should have, if you're making wise choices), then it is at far less risk of being destroyed than Amaranthine is.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jul 22, 2018 11:51:31 GMT
Wouldn't a wise character's priorities be to minimize the risk of death to themselves or others, in a situation like that? Yes, but then there's equally compelling arguments to be made for both sides. Personally, I'd argue that unnecessarily killing or allowing people to die is unwise, and I'd still save the mages and Amaranthine. You have to clear the Circle of demons and blood mages anyway, so killing people who don't need to be killed is just making extra work for yourself, and if you've upgraded the keep in Awakening (which you should have, if you're making wise choices), then it is at far less risk of being destroyed than Amaranthine is. Without meta-knowledge, though, we can't actually be sure that the mages don't need to die. Do you remember Cullen's warning that the mages could have demons inside them, lying in wait? It comes off as paranoid, but is it? That's a thing we know demons can do. Connor's demon does it if a Mage Warden makes a deal with her. How do we know, in-character, that that hasn't happened? Amaranthine I agree on though, for the reason you gave and for the reason I gave above. All I was trying to say about that was that I wasn't trying to decide whether or not letting the city die was moral, because... well, not a lot to say about that, huh?
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jul 22, 2018 12:20:51 GMT
Yes, but then there's equally compelling arguments to be made for both sides. Personally, I'd argue that unnecessarily killing or allowing people to die is unwise, and I'd still save the mages and Amaranthine. You have to clear the Circle of demons and blood mages anyway, so killing people who don't need to be killed is just making extra work for yourself, and if you've upgraded the keep in Awakening (which you should have, if you're making wise choices), then it is at far less risk of being destroyed than Amaranthine is. Without meta-knowledge, though, we can't actually be sure that the mages don't need to die. Do you remember Cullen's warning that the mages could have demons inside them, lying in wait? It comes off as paranoid, but is it? That's a thing we know demons can do. Connor's demon does it if a Mage Warden makes a deal with her. How do we know, in-character, that that hasn't happened? Amaranthine I agree on though, for the reason you gave and for the reason I gave above. All I was trying to say about that was that I wasn't trying to decide whether or not letting the city die was moral, because... well, not a lot to say about that, huh? Well I wasn't really expecting my initial post to be challenged. I was just putting in my two cents, which is that "wisdom" isn't relevant to how I make my roleplay decisions. You could argue that I shouldn't have posted at all in that case, but it's not like there's a wealth of other content on the forum to engage with.
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Post by boxofscreaming on Jul 22, 2018 12:26:27 GMT
A blood mage warden could likely detect whether someone's possessed by a demon (Merrill can). Possibly Wynne or Morrigan could too since Wynne has the spirit inside her and Morrigan is pretty familiar with abominations.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2018 12:51:45 GMT
A blood mage warden could likely detect whether someone's possessed by a demon (Merrill can). Possibly Wynne or Morrigan could too since Wynne has the spirit inside her and Morrigan is pretty familiar with abominations. True, they could've made that an extra step in the quest. However Wynne wouldn't trust you enough to tell you of course, and Merrill's ability could be a DA2 invention. Then the Warden would likely to Broken Circle before Redcliffe and wouldn't be a blood mage yet. But if one of those things would stand then it would be an interesting turn of events.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jul 23, 2018 5:14:42 GMT
A blood mage warden could likely detect whether someone's possessed by a demon (Merrill can). Possibly Wynne or Morrigan could too since Wynne has the spirit inside her and Morrigan is pretty familiar with abominations. But aside from the fact that we can't do that, are you sure you would want to use blood magic in front of the templars?
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Post by Catilina on Jul 23, 2018 9:53:42 GMT
A blood mage warden could likely detect whether someone's possessed by a demon (Merrill can). Possibly Wynne or Morrigan could too since Wynne has the spirit inside her and Morrigan is pretty familiar with abominations. But aside from the fact that we can't do that, are you sure you would want to use blood magic in front of the templars? As a Warden? Of course. Oh, it would be very satisfying! In front of Greagoir and Irving! Oh, my, I would love it!
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Post by davesin on Jul 23, 2018 11:11:29 GMT
But aside from the fact that we can't do that, are you sure you would want to use blood magic in front of the templars? As a Warden? Of course. Oh, it would be very satisfying! In front of Greagoir and Irving! Oh, my, I would love it! There was actually supposed to be an unique content for blood mages. Wynne would identify you as a blood mage. Results are, well...
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Post by Catilina on Jul 23, 2018 12:20:06 GMT
As a Warden? Of course. Oh, it would be very satisfying! In front of Greagoir and Irving! Oh, my, I would love it! There was actually supposed to be an unique content for blood mages. Wynne would identify you as a blood mage. Results are, well... Yes, I know. And I would like this option...
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Post by Iddy on Jul 23, 2018 14:13:59 GMT
As for Amaranthine, it seems like saving it shouldn't work out because the taint in the Children is mentioned to be especially virulent and allowing it to spread, even through tainted victims, is only going to be worse than the alternative. I wish they acknowledged the problem of the taint more than just the spare the Messenger slide. Yes, I hadn't considered that. Killing darkspawn is only half the problem.
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Post by Walter Black on Jul 24, 2018 17:37:22 GMT
I usually save Amaranthine, but the Battle of Vigil's Keep is so much more fun ...
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