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Post by Catilina on Oct 12, 2018 23:59:09 GMT
Are most known mages outside of the tower though? I think it probably depends on the Circle (you noted Kirkwall, which is not excusable for lots or reasons, but seems to be an exception anyway). However, there's at least some "mathematical evidence" that points to it being so in Ferelden (which is "classic" DAO), yeah. Fire up Origins (or don't, 'cause I already did and counted). Go to the Circle Tower. Now, the first floor is the Apprentice Quarters, for students who aren't Harrowed Mages yet. See the bunks? Assume one for each student living (and, admittedly, forced to live in the tower). There are 84. Now, go up to the second. This is where the Harrowed Mages live. Lets count how many individuals they are prepared to quarter there. The number there is 6. So, yeah, either a lot of Mages die in training or the like, or most of them leave the tower upon completing their training, because less than 10% of the people being held in Kinloch Hold are Harrowed Enchanters. So, the Templars kill the mages before or during the Harrowing... Because they can't leave the Tower. Why Karl sold to the Kirkwall Tower, and why just doesn't leave with Anders, after they Harrowed? Believe me, it's a prison. I did Circle Mage origin (this was my first), and the door was closed after the Harrowing too. The Templar didn't let him just go when asked... and the other mages, for example, the Isolationist one, said, we're closed, and no chance to live outside. I remember, when we went to Denerim, I hoped there will be a quest to destroy my – and another mages' phylactery, sadly we didn't get such a possibility. It was a clear feeling, this is a life imprisonment. And in Awakening Anders strengthened that. You think the Chantry got the different law for every single Circle? Or the mages' life depends only on the Knight Commander's personal whim, and nobody cares?
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Post by xerrai on Oct 13, 2018 0:13:38 GMT
Are most known mages outside of the tower though? I think it probably depends on the Circle (you noted Kirkwall, which is not excusable for lots or reasons, but seems to be an exception anyway). However, there's at least some "mathematical evidence" that points to it being so in Ferelden (which is "classic" DAO), yeah. Fire up Origins (or don't, 'cause I already did and counted). Go to the Circle Tower. Now, the first floor is the Apprentice Quarters, for students who aren't Harrowed Mages yet. See the bunks? Assume one for each student living (and, admittedly, forced to live in the tower). There are 84. Now, go up to the second. This is where the Harrowed Mages live. Lets count how many individuals they are prepared to quarter there. The number there is 6. So, yeah, either a lot of Mages die in training or the like, or most of them leave the tower upon completing their training, because less than 10% of the people being held in Kinloch Hold are Harrowed Enchanters. Or other factors. Like weather or not all of those apprentice bunks were actually occupied at one point. And how much level design is truly representative of how the Ferelden Circle is supposed to look like. Even if we ignore the information from WoT that claims Circles should have "ample room to house, feed and train hundreds of people" (because admittedly, this is the same book that also claims phylacteries can allow one to remotely cast a spell on a mage which we can pretty much conclude is either false or lacking context) there are elements in the game design itself that seem incredibly suspect if taken as a literal representation. Like the skeletons in the lower levels....and the phylactery chamber. The "phials" in the phylactery chamber range from moderately sized potions to large glass containers that can look like they hold my head. Does the game expect to believe they take that much blood from apprentices? Or that templars are willing to lug some of those glass jugs around? Or that phylactery creation/storage is really so unregimented? Or as you pointed out, the number of beds is very incongruent with the actual occupants. Does the game expect to believe that most mages are out of the Circle in drastic amounts? Or that the failed harrowing rate is abnormally(?) high?
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Post by pessimistpanda on Oct 13, 2018 1:51:27 GMT
I think it probably depends on the Circle (you noted Kirkwall, which is not excusable for lots or reasons, but seems to be an exception anyway). However, there's at least some "mathematical evidence" that points to it being so in Ferelden (which is "classic" DAO), yeah. Fire up Origins (or don't, 'cause I already did and counted). Go to the Circle Tower. Now, the first floor is the Apprentice Quarters, for students who aren't Harrowed Mages yet. See the bunks? Assume one for each student living (and, admittedly, forced to live in the tower). There are 84. Now, go up to the second. This is where the Harrowed Mages live. Lets count how many individuals they are prepared to quarter there. The number there is 6. So, yeah, either a lot of Mages die in training or the like, or most of them leave the tower upon completing their training, because less than 10% of the people being held in Kinloch Hold are Harrowed Enchanters. Or other factors. Like weather or not all of those apprentice bunks were actually occupied at one point. And how much level design is truly representative of how the Ferelden Circle is supposed to look like. Even if we ignore the information from WoT that claims Circles should have "ample room to house, feed and train hundreds of people" (because admittedly, this is the same book that also claims phylacteries can allow one to remotely cast a spell on a mage which we can pretty much conclude is either false or lacking context) there are elements in the game design itself that seem incredibly suspect if taken as a literal representation. Like the skeletons in the lower levels....and the phylactery chamber. The "phials" in the phylactery chamber range from moderately sized potions to large glass containers that can look like they hold my head. Does the game expect to believe they take that much blood from apprentices? Or that templars are willing to lug some of those glass jugs around? Or that phylactery creation/storage is really so unregimented? Or as you pointed out, the number of beds is very incongruent with the actual occupants. Does the game expect to believe that most mages are out of the Circle in drastic amounts? Or that the failed harrowing rate is abnormally(?) high? When you lay it all out like that, it almost seems as though BioWare just blindly ran with a couple of cool-sounding ideas, without taking any time to think about how these interscting systems would work in a practical sense...
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Post by xerrai on Oct 13, 2018 2:40:24 GMT
When you lay it all out like that, it almost seems as though BioWare just blindly ran with a couple of cool-sounding ideas, without taking any time to think about how these interscting systems would work in a practical sense... Well I doubt they had everything super fleshed out to the smallest detail, but I think they had a general idea for what they wanted with a series. Or at least that's what I believe with the existence of Arl Foreshadow and the prophesy by Zinnovia. But we do know they were unable to implement certain things in DAO that they just couldn't due to graphics limitations. Like how Sten was supposed to have horn, but they ended up adding hornless qunari to the lore (that's some tasteful retconning imo). Or how the tranquil were supposed to have brands on thier foreheads. But I imagine for things like phylacteries and lyrium, they had the general basic idea of what they wanted it to be and what its basic qualities were, but didn't quite hammer out the details. But back to the topic, DAO did a nice job with trying to set up the Circles as these "sometimes prisons, sometimes sanctuary" places. The games sets up mages as these dangerous beings, and these restrictive towers where they are taught how to control thier magic is how they deal with that danger. And all throughout the game, we get to explore arguments both for and against how mages should be treated. it is certainly loads more nuanced than the extremist Gallows in DA2 and the non-existent ones in DAI, despite the fact that they prominently feature mage-templar issues.
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Post by Slyvalyth on Oct 14, 2018 9:46:01 GMT
I think it probably depends on the Circle (you noted Kirkwall, which is not excusable for lots or reasons, but seems to be an exception anyway). However, there's at least some "mathematical evidence" that points to it being so in Ferelden (which is "classic" DAO), yeah. Fire up Origins (or don't, 'cause I already did and counted). Go to the Circle Tower. Now, the first floor is the Apprentice Quarters, for students who aren't Harrowed Mages yet. See the bunks? Assume one for each student living (and, admittedly, forced to live in the tower). There are 84. Now, go up to the second. This is where the Harrowed Mages live. Lets count how many individuals they are prepared to quarter there. The number there is 6.
So, yeah, either a lot of Mages die in training or the like, or most of them leave the tower upon completing their training, because less than 10% of the people being held in Kinloch Hold are Harrowed Enchanters. So, the Templars kill the mages before or during the Harrowing... Because they can't leave the Tower. Why Karl sold to the Kirkwall Tower, and why just doesn't leave with Anders, after they Harrowed? Believe me, it's a prison. I did Circle Mage origin (this was my first), and the door was closed after the Harrowing too. The Templar didn't let him just go when asked... and the other mages, for example, the Isolationist one, said, we're closed, and no chance to live outside. I remember, when we went to Denerim, I hoped there will be a quest to destroy my – and another mages' phylactery, sadly we didn't get such a possibility. It was a clear feeling, this is a life imprisonment. And in Awakening Anders strengthened that. You think the Chantry got the different law for every single Circle? Or the mages' life depends only on the Knight Commander's personal whim, and nobody cares? This is interesting. Is there a floor for the tranquils? I hear that many were turned.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 14, 2018 10:27:47 GMT
So, the Templars kill the mages before or during the Harrowing...
Because they can't leave the Tower. Why Karl sold to the Kirkwall Tower, and why just doesn't leave with Anders, after they Harrowed? Believe me, it's a prison. I did Circle Mage origin (this was my first), and the door was closed after the Harrowing too. The Templar didn't let him just go when asked... and the other mages, for example, the Isolationist one, said, we're closed, and no chance to live outside. I remember, when we went to Denerim, I hoped there will be a quest to destroy my – and another mages' phylactery, sadly we didn't get such a possibility. It was a clear feeling, this is a life imprisonment. And in Awakening Anders strengthened that.
You think the Chantry got the different law for every single Circle? Or the mages' life depends only on the Knight Commander's personal whim, and nobody cares? This is interesting. Is there a floor for the tranquils? I hear that many were turned. I don't know, but I don't even think, they live with the mages.
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Post by sgtreed24 on Oct 16, 2018 15:48:53 GMT
I vote chantry to be abolished. Templars to be a force to protect the rest of the world against evil mages and their abominations. Mages in a circle, overseen by members of their choice, but guarded by templars. Can leave if they wish.
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Post by xerrai on Oct 16, 2018 20:23:16 GMT
I vote chantry to be abolished. Templars to be a force to protect the rest of the world against evil mages and their abominations. Mages in a circle, overseen by members of their choice, but guarded by templars. Can leave if they wish. By "abolish" you mean "relinquishing control/influence of the Circle and Templars" right? Not just tearing down the church of a majorly popular religion.
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Post by sgtreed24 on Oct 16, 2018 20:28:34 GMT
I vote chantry to be abolished. Templars to be a force to protect the rest of the world against evil mages and their abominations. Mages in a circle, overseen by members of their choice, but guarded by templars. Can leave if they wish. By "abolish" you mean "relinquishing control/influence of the Circle and Templars" right? Not just tearing down the church of a majorly popular religion. Don't really wanna touch this as discussing religion never ends very well, especially on forums. But no, I mean it how I posted it. Basically, remove it from existence.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Oct 17, 2018 1:40:22 GMT
By "abolish" you mean "relinquishing control/influence of the Circle and Templars" right? Not just tearing down the church of a majorly popular religion. Don't really wanna touch this as discussing religion never ends very well, especially on forums. But no, I mean it how I posted it. Basically, remove it from existence. I'm not sure that's entirely wise. It does some things I don't approve of, but it also provably engages in charity. We can all agree it needs reform no matter where we stand on their treatment of mages, but ignoring how difficult it would be to completely shut it down I'm not sure that doing so would be a net gain for society.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Oct 17, 2018 10:45:02 GMT
Don't really wanna touch this as discussing religion never ends very well, especially on forums. But no, I mean it how I posted it. Basically, remove it from existence. I'm not sure that's entirely wise. It does some things I don't approve of, but it also provably engages in charity. We can all agree it needs reform no matter where we stand on their treatment of mages, but ignoring how difficult it would be to completely shut it down I'm not sure that doing so would be a net gain for society. If people are inclined to be charitable, they can always form an organisation of their own without any religious overtones. I really don't think that "but they do good things sometimes!" is a good enough reason to keep the Chantry around. Doing good things ought to be bare minimum we expect from everyone. I don't really care if the Chantry gets "reformed" (whatever that means) or completely dismantled, but at the very least, for the good of everyone it needs to be stripped of its military might and political influence. Its explicit goal is to wipe out all opposing faiths through any means necessary (or as they put it "spread the chant of light to all four corners of the world"). It is no better than the Qunari in that regard, and if it had the same tools at its disposal, I have no doubt it would use them. And yet I've never seen anyone on the forum say that the way Qunari go about things is in any way acceptable. I guess genocide is cool when white women are doing it. Lol.
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Post by Iddy on Oct 17, 2018 13:51:12 GMT
I say we strike at the mages with righteous fury!
The world needs to be freed from the threat of their demonic powers!
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Post by Catilina on Oct 17, 2018 14:19:38 GMT
I say we strike at the mages with righteous fury! The world needs to be freed from the threat of their demonic powers! Kill them all and let the Maker sort them out!
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Post by davesin on Oct 17, 2018 17:02:43 GMT
I say we strike at the mages with righteous fury! The world needs to be freed from the threat of their demonic powers! Kill them all and let the Maker sort them out! You finally make some sense!
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Post by Templar Knight on Oct 17, 2018 20:13:54 GMT
I've been watching a Let's Play of DA:O.
You remember that sidequest in Dust Town, with the Mining Caste girl who got kicked out of home unless she would leave her casteless baby to die?
I always go talk to her father for her, but it turns out there's an alternative way to do the quest. The Let's Player had already finished the quest to help Brother Burkel set up a chantry in Orzammar. Seems this sidequest portrays the Chantry very nicely. Burkel takes in the mother and child, and is grieved how people don't realize that everyone is equal in the Maker's sight. At that moment I realized the Chantry is superior to Orzammar's bogus caste system, and they would benefit from it. (Similar to India irl, which is currently having a Hindu nationalism panic and lashing out at Christianity. Indians I've seen online are willing to believe the most preposterous things about why people convert to Christianity there, without accepting the most obvious reason - that it offers the "Untouchables" and lower castes a way to actually be treated like human beings.)
Of course, I'm currently working on a playthrough myself where I'm making Bhelen king for the first time, and I've heard that despite being a tyrant he *does* improve things for the casteless. No spoilers on that, please. I'm looking forward to him actually making up for the grim and horrifying initial result of me making him king.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 17, 2018 22:05:33 GMT
Kill them all and let the Maker sort them out! You finally make some sense! I always make sense.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Oct 18, 2018 1:00:56 GMT
I'm not sure that's entirely wise. It does some things I don't approve of, but it also provably engages in charity. We can all agree it needs reform no matter where we stand on their treatment of mages, but ignoring how difficult it would be to completely shut it down I'm not sure that doing so would be a net gain for society. If people are inclined to be charitable, they can always form an organisation of their own without any religious overtones. I really don't think that "but they do good things sometimes!" is a good enough reason to keep the Chantry around. Doing good things ought to be bare minimum we expect from everyone. And yet a whole lot of organizations like that do seem to be religious. Maybe the threat of eternal damnation, or prowling the Void, coupled with the promise of either Heaven or the Maker's bosom for better behavior, motivates people who wouldn't otherwise be motivated. And while there are secular charitable organizations in our world, the closest thing I can think of to that in Thedas is Elder Miriam's attempt to make sure everyone has a bed to sleep on in Lothering... which is a temporary arrangement based on sheer need. And it should be noted that the town was without secular protection at the time, and that when the templars found themselves the closest thing to law and order in the region, they stepped up. When you report to the local templars that there are bandits on the Highway, their boss's reaction is "Maker's breath, how many times must we drive them off?" It'd be better if there were still secular armed forces in the town, but there weren't. And so Lothering would have been that much more fucked if there was no Chantry, or if it wasn't armed. Not to say that religion in general (and Andrastianism in specific) doesn't motivate people to do terrible things. I'm aware that large groups of people have historically felt religion only as a boot on their backs in both our world and Thedas... but it also motivates some great acts of charity. Maybe instead of throwing the Chantry out entirely, Leiliana's approach (taking the boot off and extending more evenhanded charity) has merit. Now it should be the case that there are secular alternatives, and that the Chantry isn't necessary, but that doesn't always seem to be true. And absent those alternatives, I think completely removing the Chantry is a bad decision. Heck, you can even use the fact that they help people nobody else will to get the Chantry's foot in the door of Orzammar: you mention that the Chantry can take care of widows and orphans, and Shaper Czibor says that it's not really necessary because Orzammar has a system... before conceding without even having to be asked that some people do slip through their system's cracks.I left that a bit ambiguous on purpose, since we probably wouldn't agree on what sufficiently reforming the Chantry looks like due to our differing views on the necessity of the Circles. (But lets not get into that again, huh?)I'm leery of zealots with weapons and priests whispering in powerful peoples' ears too. But I'm not sure what's to be done about priests whispering in powerful peoples' ears, and as for the zealots with weapons... well, even without that thing we already know we disagree on, there's the bit I already mentioned where they're the ones who provided the military might needed to secure Lothering. I should also add, though, that if you go through with Annuling the Circle in Ferelden, the templars join your army even though you don't have a treaty to compel them with. The mages are legally obligated to purge the world of evil worse than man, but the templars do it because no-one else will. (And because it's fucking fun.)White women can be pretty cute, but the real reason I draw a distinction is that I don't wholly agree with the logic behind the Qun. More specifically, I think the system they want to spread everywhere grinds everyone too far into the dust for not enough gain. (I'd say they especially go too far with mages by the way. Do mages really need their mouths sewn shut? Do templars order mages to commit suicide for being out of sight for a few days? Wtfh?)
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Post by melbella on Oct 18, 2018 1:06:22 GMT
I always go talk to her father for her, but it turns out there's an alternative way to do the quest. The Let's Player had already finished the quest to help Brother Burkel set up a chantry in Orzammar. Seems this sidequest portrays the Chantry very nicely. Burkel takes in the mother and child, and is grieved how people don't realize that everyone is equal in the Maker's sight. Given what happens per the epilogue, I never convince the Shaperate to let him set up a Chantry anymore.
That quest has other options as well. You can convince the family to take them back, send them to the Chantry (if set up in Orzammar), convince her to make for the surface, convince her to give up her baby (never did this), or do nothing.
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