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Post by Catilina on Jul 29, 2018 21:20:37 GMT
Anders didn't murder children – but the Chantry did. The Chantry did (tastefully off-screen, of course), but are you sure Anders didn't? That was a pretty big explosion. And how old was Ella? Not very, surely? Of course, if Anders was full rivalry and helped Hawke fight for Meredith at the end, all bets are off. Yes, I'm sure. He blew up the main building. And it was evening, at the streets probably fewer children walked. I never rivalled Anders, and not on my to-do list, especially not to force him against his people. I once sided with Templar Carver (I can't see any other reason to be a part of the massacre). Anders died, but he was Hawke's friend. Never again.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jul 29, 2018 21:28:14 GMT
The Chantry did (tastefully off-screen, of course), but are you sure Anders didn't? That was a pretty big explosion. And how old was Ella? Not very, surely? Of course, if Anders was full rivalry and helped Hawke fight for Meredith at the end, all bets are off. Yes, I'm sure. He blew up the main building. And it was evening, at the streets probably fewer children walked. I never rivalled Anders, and not on my to-do list, especially not to force him against his people. I once sided with Templar Carver (I can't see any other reason to be a part of the massacre). Anders died, but he was Hawke's friend. Never again. Well, if you accept developer comments, then what Anders did killed children. If you decide to go Death of The Author... then scattering a heavy stone building around a wooden city in a hellstorm of fire seems likely to kill at least a few children. What does it matter that they're probably inside their dwellings? I doubt those buildings are much shield against fire and falling rock. Edit: And I forgot to mention the children inside the Circle. Even if you don't set events up so that Anders participates in the Annulment himself, he still deliberately caused it. He didn't kill them with his own hands, but he's the reason Meredith's weren't tied.
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Post by Catilina on Jul 29, 2018 21:58:10 GMT
Yes, I'm sure. He blew up the main building. And it was evening, at the streets probably fewer children walked. I never rivalled Anders, and not on my to-do list, especially not to force him against his people. I once sided with Templar Carver (I can't see any other reason to be a part of the massacre). Anders died, but he was Hawke's friend. Never again. Well, if you accept developer comments, then what Anders did killed children. If you decide to go Death of The Author... then scattering a heavy stone building around a wooden city in a hellstorm of fire seems likely to kill at least a few children. What does it matter that they're probably inside their dwellings? I doubt those buildings are much shield against fire and falling rock. Edit: And I forgot to mention the children inside the Circle. Even if you don't set events up so that Anders participates in the Annulment himself, he still deliberately caused it. He didn't kill them with his own hands, but he's the reason Meredith's weren't tied. Here some interesting question about the Chantry boom.You can't blame Anders for Meredith's crime.
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Post by boxofscreaming on Jul 29, 2018 22:08:26 GMT
The Chantry did (tastefully off-screen, of course), but are you sure Anders didn't? That was a pretty big explosion. And how old was Ella? Not very, surely? Of course, if Anders was full rivalry and helped Hawke fight for Meredith at the end, all bets are off. Yes, I'm sure. He blew up the main building. And it was evening, at the streets probably fewer children walked. It's rarely as easy as that. History is full of terrorist groups that claimed they were trying to minimise civilian casualties, who sent warnings before the bombs went off, who ended up killing plenty of people they didn't intend to in theory. If you set off a bomb in an urban area, you can't be sure exactly who will be killed.
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Post by Catilina on Jul 29, 2018 22:11:45 GMT
I liked Viv, and I thought she was a bitch. Her character was a lot deeper than most. The fact that she's a lot more reasonable than any of the "Magez shld be teh freez" mages we see elsewhere in the game, we need to see people who state rather obvious truths. I also like how she feels that passing through a life doesn't have the power to change it. I agreed with her: Blackwall was a bit too much of a dreamer. I disagree that, if she was a guy, she'd be less hated. The difference is, we'd call him an asshole. That's why I liked her too, she represents the 'reasonable middle ground' if you will. You think? I hope so. Vivienne's extremist not represents the "reasonable middle ground".
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Post by Catilina on Jul 29, 2018 22:16:04 GMT
Yes, I'm sure. He blew up the main building. And it was evening, at the streets probably fewer children walked. It's rarely as easy as that. History is full of terrorist groups that claimed they were trying to minimise civilian casualties, who sent warnings before the bombs went off, who ended up killing plenty of people they didn't intend to in theory. If you set off a bomb in an urban area, you can't be sure exactly who will be killed. Kirkwall's not a modern metropolis, and Anders' not a terrorist.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jul 29, 2018 22:52:02 GMT
Well, if you accept developer comments, then what Anders did killed children. If you decide to go Death of The Author... then scattering a heavy stone building around a wooden city in a hellstorm of fire seems likely to kill at least a few children. What does it matter that they're probably inside their dwellings? I doubt those buildings are much shield against fire and falling rock. Edit: And I forgot to mention the children inside the Circle. Even if you don't set events up so that Anders participates in the Annulment himself, he still deliberately caused it. He didn't kill them with his own hands, but he's the reason Meredith's weren't tied. Here some interesting question about the Chantry boom.They are, yes. But I don't think any of them change the fact that Anders blew up a heavy stone building. Now, if he'd imploded it, probably nobody would have died other than the people inside it. Instead he exploded it. Most demolitionists don't do that to buildings because of the risk of casualties. So right there there's at least the potential for the blast to have killed people, especially if the rock actually rained down on the city the way Varric says. And statistically, the more people die, the more likely a few will be children. Then there's the fact that fires broke out immediately after the blast... at least according to what we see in-game, though Yesthatnagia might be right that Varric is oversimplifying when he says the blast started the fires. If that's not oversimplfying, though... Kirkwall would almost certainly be mostly made of wood. Fires starting all over the city would almost certainly kill at least a few people, including some children. If the blast directly caused those fires, rather than the fighting afterwards doing so, then Anders killed those people. (If the blast didn't directly create those fires, then I'd argue he still bears some responsibility, just not as much. Because either way, his actions led to those fires.) Then there's the later dialogue that outright says that it killed people outside the Chantry... though part of me wonders if the devs only added that because pro-templars argued that it would have, and the devs looked over what they'd created and decided that yes, that sounded about right. Still, though, they'd created the cutscene that pro-templars came to that conclusion based on, so maybe that was how we were supposed to see it from the start.He deliberately enabled her to do it, because he knew she would and he had plans that depended on her doing it. I can't not.
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Post by Catilina on Jul 29, 2018 22:57:27 GMT
They are, yes. But I don't think any of them change the fact that Anders blew up a heavy stone building. Now, if he'd imploded it, probably nobody would have died other than the people inside it. Instead he exploded it. Most demolitionists don't do that to buildings because of the risk of casualties. So right there there's the potential for the blast to have killed people, especially if the rock actually rained down on the city the way Varric says. And statistically, the more people die, the more likely a few will be children. Then there's the fact that fires broke out immediately after the blast... at least according to what we see in-game, though Yesthatnagia might be right that Varric is oversimplifying when he says the blast started the fires. If that's not oversimplfying, though... Kirkwall would almost certainly be mostly made of wood. Fires starting all over the city would almost certainly kill at least a few people, including some children. If the blast directly caused those fires, rather than the fighting afterwards doing so, then Anders killed those people. (If the blast didn't directly create those fires, then I'd argue he still bears some responsibility, just not as much. Because either way, his actions led to those fires.) Then there's the later dialogue that outright says that it killed people outside the Chantry... though part of me wonders if the devs only added that because pro-templars argued that it would have, and the devs looked over what they'd created and decided that yes, that sounded about right. Still, though, they'd created the cutscene that pro-templars came to that conclusion based on, so maybe that was how we were supposed to see it from the start.He deliberately enabled her to do it, because he knew she would and he had plans that depended on her doing it. I can't not.It's not about Anders' not a murderer: people died. But "Anders killed innocent children" is not proved and a melodramatic exaggeration. If you can't not blame Anders about the Annulment, so, you can't not blame the Chantry and Meredith and Elthina for the Chantry explosion. So: The Chantry caused the Annulment.
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Post by boxofscreaming on Jul 29, 2018 23:02:37 GMT
It's rarely as easy as that. History is full of terrorist groups that claimed they were trying to minimise civilian casualties, who sent warnings before the bombs went off, who ended up killing plenty of people they didn't intend to in theory. If you set off a bomb in an urban area, you can't be sure exactly who will be killed. Kirkwall's not a modern metropolis, and Anders' not a terrorist. Doesn't need to be a metropolis. The worst bombing of the Troubles wasn't in Belfast or Dublin or London, it was in Omagh, County Tyrone (pop. 21,297). Many terrorist attacks have been in small towns and villages. Whether Anders is a terrorist is a matter of quibbling over definitions and isn't really relevant to what actually happened. He set off a bomb in the middle of the biggest city in the southern Free Marches, in a public building that anyone can enter at any time - this wasn't a Templar stronghold. Of course it was justified in his head, but bombers always think they're doing the right thing. I think Anders is a great character and his goal of freedom for mages is a good one, but I think to read him as an unambiguous hero makes his character arc irrelevant and I doubt even he would see himself in those terms.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jul 29, 2018 23:04:53 GMT
Yes, I'm sure. He blew up the main building. And it was evening, at the streets probably fewer children walked. I never rivalled Anders, and not on my to-do list, especially not to force him against his people. I once sided with Templar Carver (I can't see any other reason to be a part of the massacre). Anders died, but he was Hawke's friend. Never again. Some Chantry sisters mention the Chantry housed Fereldan refugee children. I guess child murderer can be added to Anders' list of charming qualities. So we do have actual reason to believe there were children in the Chantry? Because I'd heard that assertion before, but nobody on this forum went into much detail.
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Post by Catilina on Jul 29, 2018 23:10:10 GMT
Kirkwall's not a modern metropolis, and Anders' not a terrorist. Doesn't need to be a metropolis. The worst bombing of the Troubles wasn't in Belfast or Dublin or London, it was in Omagh, County Tyrone (pop. 21,297). Many terrorist attacks have been in small towns and villages. Whether Anders is a terrorist is a matter of quibbling over definitions and isn't really relevant to what actually happened. He set off a bomb in the middle of the biggest city in the southern Free Marches, in a public building that anyone can enter at any time - this wasn't a Templar stronghold. Of course it was justified in his head, but bombers always think they're doing the right thing. I think Anders is a great character and his goal of freedom for mages is a good one, but I think to read him as an unambiguous hero makes his character arc irrelevant and I doubt even he would see himself in those terms. Hawke said "...he's not like just a monster or a hero, or maybe he's both..."
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jul 29, 2018 23:10:58 GMT
They are, yes. But I don't think any of them change the fact that Anders blew up a heavy stone building. Now, if he'd imploded it, probably nobody would have died other than the people inside it. Instead he exploded it. Most demolitionists don't do that to buildings because of the risk of casualties. So right there there's the potential for the blast to have killed people, especially if the rock actually rained down on the city the way Varric says. And statistically, the more people die, the more likely a few will be children.
Then there's the fact that fires broke out immediately after the blast... at least according to what we see in-game, though Yesthatnagia might be right that Varric is oversimplifying when he says the blast started the fires. If that's not oversimplfying, though... Kirkwall would almost certainly be mostly made of wood. Fires starting all over the city would almost certainly kill at least a few people, including some children. If the blast directly caused those fires, rather than the fighting afterwards doing so, then Anders killed those people. (If the blast didn't directly create those fires, then I'd argue he still bears some responsibility, just not as much. Because either way, his actions led to those fires.)
Then there's the later dialogue that outright says that it killed people outside the Chantry... though part of me wonders if the devs only added that because pro-templars argued that it would have, and the devs looked over what they'd created and decided that yes, that sounded about right. Still, though, they'd created the cutscene that pro-templars came to that conclusion based on, so maybe that was how we were supposed to see it from the start.He deliberately enabled her to do it, because he knew she would and he had plans that depended on her doing it. I can't not. It's not about Anders' not a murderer: people died. But "Anders killed innocent children" is not proved and a melodramatic exaggeration. Not proven, maybe. But I don't think you've proven that it's a melodramatic exaggeration, either. Except that, if Voidinist was right that there were Ferelden refugee children in the Chantry, they probably died too. So if that's proven, then the odds of Anders not directly killing children with that bomb pretty much reach zero. I have no idea how you got that conclusion. The logic I used to blame Anders for the Chantry explosion doesn't really translate at all to blaming Elthina for the Chantry explosion, since she didn't deliberately give Anders the ability to do so knowing he would take advantage of it in order to fulfill a goal that doesn't happen if he decides he'd rather walk away.
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Post by Catilina on Jul 29, 2018 23:11:44 GMT
Some Chantry sisters mention the Chantry housed Fereldan refugee children. I guess child murderer can be added to Anders' list of charming qualities. So we do have actual reason to believe there were children in the Chantry? Because I'd heard that assertion before, but nobody on this forum went into much detail. Not in the main building. Did you saw Cathedral with Orphanage in the main building?
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jul 29, 2018 23:14:39 GMT
So we do have actual reason to believe there were children in the Chantry? Because I'd heard that assertion before, but nobody on this forum went into much detail. Not in the main building. Did you saw Cathedral with Orphanage in the main building? How much of the actual Chantry do we explore? Is it enough that not seeing orphans inside it is significant? Edit: Actual question, btw, because you remember that playthrough of DA2 that you, Vertigomez, and Cmoe told me I need to take off my to-do list?
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Post by Catilina on Jul 29, 2018 23:16:43 GMT
It's not about Anders' not a murderer: people died. But "Anders killed innocent children" is not proved and a melodramatic exaggeration. Not proven, maybe. But I don't think you've proven that it's a melodramatic exaggeration, either. Except that, if Voidinist was right that there were Ferelden refugee children in the Chantry, they probably died too. So if that's proven, then the odds of Anders not directly killing children with that bomb pretty much reach zero.I have no idea how you got that conclusion. The logic I used to blame Anders for the Chantry explosion doesn't really translate at all to blaming Elthina for the Chantry explosion, since she didn't deliberately give Anders the ability to do so knowing he would take advantage of it in order to fulfill a goal that doesn't happen if he decides he'd rather walk away. Again: did you saw any Cathedral with Orphanage in the main building? There were some Templars and Chantry-mothers/sisters. Not mentioned, the Fereldan refugees were in Lowtown and Darktown. Evelina, a Fereldan mage refugee cared about the orphans in the Darktown. She asked for help from the Circle and the Chantry, but the Templars started to pursue her. She lived in the Lowtown, as a beggar with the children. She became an abomination in despair. Hawke killed her. And Hawke can give sovereigns to the oldest guy after Evelina died. If we blame Anders' for the Annulment, we blame Elthina and the Chantry for the Annulment, but Anders' act caused by the Chantry's oppression, and Elthina's "neutrality"... So: we went back to the roots.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jul 29, 2018 23:20:02 GMT
It's not about Anders' not a murderer: people died. But "Anders killed innocent children" is not proved and a melodramatic exaggeration. Not proven, maybe. But I don't think you've proven that it's a melodramatic exaggeration, either. Except that, if Voidinist was right that there were Ferelden refugee children in the Chantry, they probably died too. So if that's proven, then the odds of Anders not directly killing children with that bomb pretty much reach zero. I mean, at no point are we ever shown any children in the Chantry, and having played the game upwards of ten times, I have yet to find a character in the game who ever even claimed that the Chantry was hosting refugees of any age or nationality. Even if that were true at the start of the game, the destruction of the Chantry occurs a full ten years later. On the other hand we are explicitly told and shown that many, if not most Fereldens in Kirkwall, are squatting in the gd sewers. So I think characterising the claim as an exaggeration is kind. Personally I'm leaning towards "outright lie".
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Post by Catilina on Jul 29, 2018 23:20:09 GMT
Not in the main building. Did you saw Cathedral with Orphanage in the main building? How much of the actual Chantry do we explore? Is it enough that not seeing orphans inside it is significant? Edit: Actual question, btw, because you remember that playthrough of DA2 that you, Vertigomez, and Cmoe told me I need to take off my to-do list? You already played DA2?
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jul 30, 2018 0:00:18 GMT
How much of the actual Chantry do we explore? Is it enough that not seeing orphans inside it is significant? Edit: Actual question, btw, because you remember that playthrough of DA2 that you, Vertigomez, and Cmoe told me I need to take off my to-do list? You already played DA2? No. I'm still depending on Youtube and the forum. So... do we actually explore enough of the Chantry that we'd expect to encounter an orphanage if it had one? If we blame Anders' for the Annulment, we blame Elthina and the Chantry for the Annulment, but Anders' act caused by the Chantry's oppression, and Elthina's "neutrality"... So: we went back to the roots. Again: that doesn't really work given my specific rationale for blaming Anders for Meredith's choices. Anders had a plan that required the Circle to be Annuled. He knew Meredith wanted to Annul the Circle, but that Elthina was stopping her. So he killed Elthina and anyone else around who could serve as a replacement, knowing that Meredith would then be free to Annul the Circle and that she would do so. What part of that applies to Elthina and the Chantry explosion? Not proven, maybe. But I don't think you've proven that it's a melodramatic exaggeration, either. Except that, if Voidinist was right that there were Ferelden refugee children in the Chantry, they probably died too. So if that's proven, then the odds of Anders not directly killing children with that bomb pretty much reach zero. I mean, at no point are we ever shown any children in the Chantry, and having played the game upwards of ten times, I have yet to find a character in the game who ever even claimed that the Chantry was hosting refugees of any age or nationality. Even if that were true at the start of the game, the destruction of the Chantry occurs a full ten years later. On the other hand we are explicitly told and shown that many, if not most Fereldens in Kirkwall, are squatting in the gd sewers. So I think characterising the claim as an exaggeration is kind. Personally I'm leaning towards "outright lie". I don't think the claim is likely to be an outright lie. Part of the reason I say that is that I encountered a reference to it in a fancomic whose author seems to disapprove of Anders' actions, but doesn't seem inclined to lie to make them seem worse than they were. (Part of the reason I say that she's not likely to deliberately lie about this is that I don't think she's necessarily pro-templar. The rest of it is that she honestly doesn't seem inclined to get into the real controversies in the fandom.)
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 30, 2018 0:05:29 GMT
No. I'm still depending on Youtube and the forum. So... do we actually explore enough of the Chantry that we'd expect to encounter an orphanage if it had one? No. We only see the main chapel in the building. There is far more of that Chantry we don't see. Entire floors and sections are unavailable to enter, including the basement where Anders plants his bomb and the living quarters for everyone who stays inside.
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Post by Catilina on Jul 30, 2018 0:10:57 GMT
No. I'm still depending on Youtube and the forum. So... do we actually explore enough of the Chantry that we'd expect to encounter an orphanage if it had one? No. We only see the main chapel in the building. There is far more of that Chantry we don't see. Entire floors and sections are unavailable to enter, including the basement where Anders plants his bomb and the living quarters for everyone who stays inside. Again: did you saw a Cathedral, that have Orphanage in the main building? (At the basement were lyrium deposit, I suppose.)
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Post by duskwanderer on Jul 30, 2018 0:11:39 GMT
I agree that presenting points of view accurately and without prejudice is a staple of good storytelling, but I honestly think BioWARE failed in this regard when it comes to Inquisition: It seems to me like they really didn't put much effort into elaborating the templars or giving you a reason to support them. How so?
I could support Ser Barris and the remaining Templars that did not align so much with the Lord Seeker. I can understand them a bit, they are soldiers following command and Ser Barris goes against them. They are courageous at that point, going against command. Plus Templars are good warriors and have that ability to fight magic.
Mostly though I do support the mages.
But you only get one scene with Ser Barris before he leaves for Val Royeaux, and no other templars talk. By contrast, you get scene after scene with Fiona, and you can talk to a lot of the mages in Redcliffe. You don't get any templars to talk to, to hear about the stories Cullen said are spreading like legion. I agree, I can think of the reasons to ally with the templars. The Breach is a Fade Rift, a very large one, and to beat back the Fade Rift, you need the power of lyrium. This is something Templars can do. But I have to do the thinking. It is never presented.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jul 30, 2018 0:17:37 GMT
I agree, I can think of the reasons to ally with the templars. The Breach is a Fade Rift, a very large one, and to beat back the Fade Rift, you need the power of lyrium. This is something Templars can do. But I have to do the thinking. It is never presented. That one reason is presented, though. After you stabilize the Breach, Cassandra and Leiliana suggest going to the mages to put more power into the Anchor, but Cullen says he's not sure that won't backfire. He suggests that it might be safer to go to the templars to ask them to weaken the Breach would be safer. And he does come off as a lot more convincing than Leiliana and Cassandra do.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 30, 2018 0:46:37 GMT
No. We only see the main chapel in the building. There is far more of that Chantry we don't see. Entire floors and sections are unavailable to enter, including the basement where Anders plants his bomb and the living quarters for everyone who stays inside. Again: did you saw a Cathedral, that have Orphanage in the main building? (At the basement were lyrium deposit, I suppose.) Yes. In fact in medieval times, which is the time period Dragon Age is inspired by, having orphans live in the church was very common.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Jul 30, 2018 0:53:28 GMT
Again: did you saw a Cathedral, that have Orphanage in the main building? (At the basement were lyrium deposit, I suppose.) Yes. In fact in medieval times, which is the time period Dragon Age is inspired by, having orphans live in the church was very common. Not in the main building in a Catedral. And Kirkwall's not a medieval city – nor Thedas a medieval culture. It's mixed.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 30, 2018 1:26:37 GMT
Yes. In fact in medieval times, which is the time period Dragon Age is inspired by, having orphans live in the church was very common. Not in the main building in a Catedral. And Kirkwall's not a medieval city – nor Thedas a medieval culture. It's mixed. Still yes, actually. And that practice continued to well past medieval times. It was seen as one of the duties of the church. Also that Chantry in Kirkwall is far more than a cathedral. Anders directly and indirectly murdered children. He owned it, so you should too.
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